Is this a beautiful quote or what?

[Juxtapose]

Yes

No

[nightdrot]

Actually, no. As an abstraction it sounds rather grand and noble. However, when reduced to the practical realities, it is a somewhat more problematic quote. Suffice to add that Jefferson's great rival - Alexander Hamilton - as well as the British conservative statesman Edmund Burke offered a more realistic vision of the nature and role of government.

To start, they both argued that government is as natural to man as clothes or shelter. A thing devised out of practical necessity as derived through historical experience. As Burke said, "Government is not made in virtue of natural rights, which may and do exist in total independence of it; and exist in much greater clearness, and in a much greater degree of abstract perfection: but their abstract perfection is their practical defect. By having a right to every thing they want every thing."

In practical terms, if you want a society where there is no fear of government, look at Los Angeles. Look at NYC. Look at the crime rates as the police - an instrument of government - withdrawal in the face of popular criticism and the culture grows more lawless. Suffice to say, it is not safe to walk the streets, because there is no fear of the authority of the government.

To be sure, a society that is ONLY fearful of government is not desirable either. Rather, as Hamilton and Burke pointed out - each in their different ways - a balance must be struck. Fear either way is not desirable. To quote Burke again, “To make a government requires no great prudence. Settle the seat of power, teach obedience, and the work is done. To give freedom is still more easy. It is not necessary to guide; it only requires to let go the rein. But to form a free government, that is, to temper together these opposite elements of liberty and restraint in one consistent work, requires much thought, deep reflection, and combing mind.”

Jefferson missed this - but the Jeffersonian ethos is strong because it sates the individual's sense of self-importance and the idea of freedom of an abstraction. Hamilton and Burke understood, in a way that Jefferson did not, that the balance of freedom and restraint is learned through historical experience.

[Juxtapose]

Well clearly people have all too much respect for authority. I'm not saying people should act like street thugs, I want the intellectuals of society to get together and collectively tell the government they have had enough of their shit and they are going to hold them accountable.

[Juxtapose]

The government is so bad that legislatures want to know what the average citizen is doing with $600 while they blindly vote on bills that have trillions of dollars at stake. The entire government is compromised and at this point I fear the only solution is to tear it all down and build it back up.

[Juxtapose]

Remember, the CIA experimented with mind control using lSD. If the government could, they would control our minds.

There is already corporations who have brainwave reading technology to make sure their workers are staying focused at all times and people are discussing "cognitive rights." 1984 is upon us, does the tree of Liberty need to be watered?

[Juxtapose]

*LSD

[nightdrot]

Actually no. The public likes the benefits that government provides.

1 in 6 people who work, work for government.
1 in 7 is a Social Security recipient - and that will only go up as the population ages. (Indeed, try and even suggest reforms to SS and the public that has no respect for government screams as if someone were setting out to touch up the Mona Lisa with a paint gun.)
1/3 of all families, this year, will receive some form of government transfer payment.
Finally, literally, 1/2 of ALL Americans pay NO Federal income tax - at all.

The public likes government, they just don't want to pay the costs - in cash or societal self-discipline - that government requires. They want all the benefits and none of the burdens. Thus a society that riots at the thought of police enforcing the law - and then demands their Social Security checks and the safety to walk the streets at night.

Suffice to say the problem is more sociologically and culturally complex than the simplistic either/or premise of Jefferson's quote. The problem is that the public does not seek to reconcile these inconsistencies in their mind and they reject the idea that there is any wiser authority that can help them ferret it out.

The USA at this interregnum - and not for the first time (see also the similar tumults of the 1960s and 70s for a recent precedent) - lacks an appreciation for the complexities with which government and society must wrestle. So they judge ALL public officials as equally unworthy. Suffice to say that, today, it is unlikely Lincoln could get elected.

[Juxtapose]

Organizations inevitably become corrupt over time and the narcissistic sociopaths who embed themselves in those organizations are nigh impossible to get rid of, even Andrew Jackson on his deathbed professed he wished he shot more of those rats because he could not get them all.

Dr. Anthony Fauci did a fantastic job of showing us how the government will prioritize pharmaceutical profits over the health of its citizens. Biden has absolutely no respect for free speech and he fucking nibbles on children in public.. gross.

The American revolution happened over less.

[Juxtapose]

We should remind the government who they work for and who they are subservient towards.

[nightdrot]

Actually, the American Revolution happened over much more, but that is a discussion for another day. It has been well said that the American people never panic - except in a crisis. The likes of Dr. Fauci fed off of that fear.

As your hero Thomas Jefferson said, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." The problem at the moment is that the public is all too quick to point the finger of blame at anyone other than themselves.

Would a Dr. Fauci have gotten as far as he did if the public had kept their heads? The reasons why they did not are complex, but had calm reason prevailed, the likes of Dr. Fauci would have gotten no traction.

As to the name calling, the public again will not consent - see the stats I provided above - to the kinds of reduction of the authority of the state that their rhetoric would otherwise suggest. Human beings and the institutions they create are inevitably imperfect. Beyond that, the larger the state, the larger the administration must be to run that state and hence a large bureaucracy.

You cannot have one without the other and the public's self-satisfaction is inversely proportionate to their willingness to modify the nature of that state to get different outcomes. So they scream about the bureaucrats - and then refuse to consent to any reduction in the bureaucracy.

It is a failure to reconcile means and ends and it is the occupational hazard of the American political culture.

[LiamJHayden]

Maybe more like, "When people fear their unjust government there is tyranny; when the government fears the just people there is liberty." Perhaps it was understood that way in his time. Now, in certain places, the government fears the criminal element and you get stupid stuff like crooks going into stores, loading up shopping carts with $900 worth of stuff, and walking out knowing that at worst they'll get a ticket with no real penalty if they fail to pay it, and only if the police stop them.

[Alli39]

I mean, it's not something I would identify as especially beautiful sooooo

[HappyWoman34]

Very well said!

[Lliam]

• As it should be. If more people understood that, we wouldn't be in our present situation. But a lot of people encourage Big Brother to rule over those with whom they disagree. It makes them feel safe. They don't realize that those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety will wind up with neither.

[Anonymous]

What is beautiful is the enlighten minds of the men who found theses facts, at a rare moment in human history in the age of enlightenment in a place of opportunity and freedom before corruption of power and greed made such honest thoughts intolerable to the majority.

[Exterminatore]

It is true what Jefferson is saying. We must be careful that there is not too little or too much government control. With too little freedom abounds, but so does anarchy which is just as dangerous as tyranny.

[AviatorTom]

TJ was a very intelligent man. That quote strikes true.

[exitseven]

Thomas Jefferson was one of my faves. The government tht governs least, governs best.

[GoodGuyBreakingBad]

Yes, it's a beautiful quote

[KostasKouvalis]

I wish our founding fathers were still alive

[goaded]

I take it you're sure that it's referring to violence. Not just protests and voting.

[Juxtapose]

Well duh, you don't think the government has a barrel of a gun pointed at us to intimidate us to do what they want? You think I would feel at all bad about them being intimidated by the people? If they are..

Good.

[OddBeMe]

Yes very liberal of him at the time.

[Juxtapose]

Something I wish the current left would go back to.

[OddBeMe]

What’s different? Besides time.

[Juxtapose]

lol everything.

[Juxtapose]

Now the left is filled with war pigs and simps for authority.

[OddBeMe]

Warpigs for funding Ukraine? If it were bush he’d send troops.

And simps for authority? You’re arguing FOR Putin.

[Juxtapose]

Fuck Bush too.

Putin is legitimately better than Biden full stop.

[OddBeMe]

You are deeply confused. I imagine your only news is YouTube clips and 4chan algorithmed for far right bullshit.

[Whatthefluff]

Absolutely.

[comekitty]

Perfect! 🙂

[gorydetails]

100%

[DJB72]

Very accurate

[Pterodon]

100% agree