How do you compel good guys with guns to stop bad guys with guns?

[Still-alive]

Seriously if good guys would step up more when bad guys with guns go on their shooting spree most of these mass shootings could be stopped by now...

[DarkWinterNights]

Overwhelmingly the locations these shootings happen in are gun free zones that outlaw the possession of firearms. There has also been a fairly hard push to demonize and discourage people from defending themselves and others, regardless of whether a firearm is used or not. With criminal justice being a revolving door for career criminals there’s no reason to suggest things won’t continue to get worse for the foreseeable future.

[Still-alive]

Got a citation for that?

[Still-alive]

Here's mine: Gun-free zones have no measurable effect on violence www.rand.org/.../gun-free-zones.html

"We found no qualifying studies showing that gun-free zones increased any of the eight outcomes we investigated."

"We found no qualifying studies showing that gun-free zones decreased any of the eight outcomes we investigated."

[DarkWinterNights]

Only because there is no agreed upon definition of a “gun free zone” and an ever changing definition of “mass shooting” which now includes domestic and gang violence. That a pretty balanced take even though it doesn’t really have a solid conclusion. Politifact has an interesting breakdown as well, even though they tend to lose the plot midway through.

www.politifact.com/.../

The reality is schools, banks, government buildings, military bases, sports games and concerts/events overwhelmingly prohibit carrying firearms, even if it isn’t a written law- they more often than not have signs labeling it as such. Even my local Walmart has a sign on the door. These locations also tend to be the locations targeted by mass shooters. Whether that is because they’re gun free zones or because most places are gun free zones is up to interpretation, but being unable to defend yourself should allow you to file lawsuits against these places if they won’t take steps to ensure your safety on their property.

[Still-alive]

So if there are no agreed conclusion about what ‘gun free zones’ are how can you conclude these shootings occur in gun free zone places?

you'll need to cite the last paragraph you just posted.

Ill say this though in places like uvalde or parkland where there were armed law enforcement nearby those ‘good guys with guns’ didn’t act at all… so i wonder about your claims…

[Still-alive]

www.usnews.com/.../uvalde-buffalo-shootings-expose-the-myth-of-the-good-guy-with-a-gun

[DarkWinterNights]

I listed out the locations that are consider gun free zones almost universally. I would also argue armed guards don’t make a location *not* a gun free zone, nor does it make every armed guard a hero as we saw in Uvalde. In fact if anything it shows everyone really is on their own when it comes down to it.

[DarkWinterNights]

As for a citation, it’s kind of common knowledge that schools, banks, military bases and government buildings are gun free zones. You have to know these things when you carry a gun legally. Some places like Walmart don’t really have a law backing them up so they can only ask you to leave- and if you refuse call the police and charge you with trespassing.

[DarkWinterNights]

The last sentence about liability is a personal opinion.

[Still-alive]

So if even armed guards where its their duty to protect against crimes like this can't be trusted to do the right thing how can we trust random ordinary people to do this?

[DarkWinterNights]

It’s not a perfect solution. But neither is the current alternative. On the plus side, people who carry tend to have more training and/or practice than many police.

They don’t mention it in the article, but the distance this guy took the mass shooter out at was basically competition level.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-62217263

[Sparkie460]

The government is making it harder and harder for good citizens to get a gun. In my state you not only need a background check to get the gun, you also need a background check for ammunition

[Lionman95]

Why is that? If you´re a good citizen that shouldn´t be a hinderance.

[Sparkie460]

The state does everything to take our money.

[Sparkie460]

Thanks for the mho

[Lionman95]

Yes the state really does a lot to take people´s money but doing backround checks is one of the few things I would say that might work to avoid giving guns to people that are not responsible to the community. But I get your problems with that.

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

A lot of good guys actually don’t own guns. They don’t want to hurt people. The guys with guns who are good are usually just collectors, they don’t take their guns everywhere because they follow the rules that say you’re not allowed to take firearms on certain properties. You can’t compel them to break the rules on the off-chance there’s a shooter unless they know ahead of time somehow.

[SaoirseS]

Why, and more importantly how, would you compel a citizen to do so?

[Still-alive]

You can't. The question is rhetorical.

[Still-alive]

Its more poking fun at the mentality that a good guy with a gun should and will stop a bad guy with a gun during a shooting. The myth is largely still a myth and shouldn’t be taken seriously.

[SaoirseS]

But it does happen. It’s more the deterrent value of having an armed citizenry that matters - especially since, as the Supreme Court has ruled, the police have no duty to protect citizens unless they are in custody.

[Still-alive]

Yeah we know about that…

It happens but its extremely rare.

[SaoirseS]

I wouldn’t count on that, especially if you’re relying on statistics.

[Still-alive]

Ok lets see your stats.

We also can't count on ‘good guys with guns’ either.

[SaoirseS]

I don’t count on anybody but myself, nor should anyone else count on others. The main purpose behind Citizen carry is self-protection (and maybe one’s nearby loved ones), not getting into protracted engagement with a bad guy bent on doing harm, usually with greater firepower. You can “make fun” all you want, but I’m not fazed and won’t apologize for taking responsibility for my own safety

[Still-alive]

Ok ill state this fir the record for you because i like you and think you genuinely care about things like the truth or evidence. I don’t want guns banned in our country. Conservatives happen to be correct about this one fact about guns and that is there truly is way wayyy more guns in the United states than there are people. Just a quick google search puts the number in the 434 million range. So i would be daft to think banning guns out right will solve our issues. It won’t.

So then if we can’t ban guns whats the next thing? Just make it way wayy harder for any common individual to obtain one. I think they should be required to take classes and obviously screened for any mental issues which I understand they are in most states. I think all the family members related to an individual should be screened as well. And any red flags popping up should be taken seriously and result in that individual unable to get a gun.

Japan is a great model in my humble opinion on what should be required before obtaining a firearm: www.fastcompany.com/.../its-absurdly-easy-to-buy-a-gun-in-america

So just stating it clearly for you i don’t want a gun ban jist make it harder to get one.

[Still-alive]

I just think of the weight of responsibility should seriously affect anyone who manages to go through all of that training and society says basically ‘ok yes we can trust you to have this weapon.’ For me personally i would take that responsibility very seriously and if i were to own a gun i would only ever want to use it in the most dire of rare circumstances.

And now back to the topic: i just think its a silly notion that good guys with guns can be depended upon to stop the bad guys with guns. No citizen can be made or compelled to act against their personal safety. That is morally the correct stance to take. But then if a bad guy with a gun does act and you have a bunch of police officers—the supposed ‘good guys’ with guns’— hiding out in a school hallway while children are being murdered in a classroom that is pretty fucked up too. So how on earth can we depend on any normal citizen to do the right thing there when we can't even get law enforcement to do it?

So i think its just foolish to keep stating that silly idea. I think instead just make it way harder for those perpetrators to get their hands on these deadly weapons in the first place would be great. I think also a number of these mass shooters had been tracked by FBI and they did nothing about preventing them either. So thats a huge failure on the fbi’s part.

[Date_a_Snob]

no one except for police and the military needs a gun

[DarkWinterNights]

Why do the police and military need guns?

[petitedollbabee]

@Date_a_Snob That’s how my country is. Ofcourse, some people still manage to sneak guns into the country, but they don’t use them for mass shootings or on the random public. Usually those people are in gangs and use them to take out other gangs. Which means less work for police because the bad guys are taking themselves out.. haha. We haven’t had any mass shootings for years.

[Date_a_Snob]

@petitedollbabee I live in Canada. You?

[petitedollbabee]

@Date_a_Snob New Zealand.

[Date_a_Snob]

I am so jealous of you