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In a case like that, I think it should be up to the parents and the child. I'm pro life in just about every situation-but this is one life or the other.
As a person of faith, let me explain why I say "yes" to this situation.
The situation here completely invalidates any argument to preserve life. If the fetus is simply not viable, there is no reason to keep the dead fetus inside of a person.
It is not the same as an individual sleeping around with other people and simply wanting to throw away their baby. However, the problem with people in general sleeping around is the fact they are rampantly spreading STDs and crumbling society's stability as a whole- seeing how the average young person isn't responsible enough to commit.
I agree. We've gotten to a place we're there's people open to being pro life but want some exceptions for extreme cases like so... but a lot of conservatives won't even address them and it's gonna revert people
Life of the mother is the only valid exception
I’m just against women using abortion as easily accessible birth control. If the birth is threatening the mother’s life or the mother is raped , ofc a different conversation should be held. But what’s sickening to me is that many adult women who participate in consensual sex use sad cases mentioned above for their own benefit and comfort
that one person who said there are zero exceptions in the face of a CHILD dying to give birth... wow
@jahaims if you're christian, it's better the baby dies. That teenager may not yet be saved. And teenager is a strong word to refer to a 13yo. More often they're kids and barely teenagers. You're using different wording to try and minimize her innocence.
@jahaims lol, OK. SURE, thats what I said 😆
@jahaims if someone says "I'm dating a teenager" does it just not matter to you what age that person is? No one states it like that, they say "I'm dating a 19yo, I'm dating a legal adult" and the other person responds "ew a teenager"
So why say "either way a baby or teenager dies" its not a baby yet, it's in development of being a fetus. You're trying to manipulate emotions from words. I view it as a baby but technically it's a fetus. Just like I view a toddler as a baby even if it's a toddler. You're the one who is ignorant. A teenager is very broad, and 13 is on the earliest cusp of it. Calling a little girl a teenager who is better off dying than her child is manipulative because we both know they are both children regardless of what phase of life they are at. It just depends on which child unfortunately has to die in this situation. A rare and difficult situation, but still one that requires more than an end all be all rule or law. It needs room for leniency.
@jahaims lol, sure. Except you called a fetus a baby 🤷♀️ just pointing out your own logical fallacy. Good luck on that.
"I view a toddler as a baby even if it's a toddler" is the same logic as viewing a fetus as a baby. Language is nuanced. I didn't specifically spell it out because I assumed the average person understood that. When someone is pregnant, they don't say I am carrying a fetus. They say I am carrying a baby. Even when you go to a doctor, they refer to it as a baby when it is a fetus.
@jahaims yes, but you used language manipulativly and hid behind "b but that's what it is!!" While being inconsistent with that. I on the other hand call it a baby, I call a 13yo a child or a girl. The way you referred to 13 as teenager was to overly mature them, while you referred to a fetus as a baby to better humanize it. You're not slick or smart lol.
They're both children and you can call a fetus a baby, I do. But don't pretend you weren't referring to the 13yo as "teenager" for any reason other than to make her seem less innocent and valuable.
@jahaims lol
Opinion
13Opinion
Absolutely YES.
"Pro-life" is a total misnomer created by the anti-abortion wing to falsely associate the opposing view with death, or being murderers. The question of when life begins is very, very much up for debate scientifically, and even religions differ on it. These folks are more properly called "pro-birthers", because by and large, they don't give a SHIT what happens to the fetus in terms of pre-natal care, after birth care or what kind of environment a newborn gets born into.
This isn't medieval times. There's absolutely NO reason that a 13 year old should be getting pregnant in the first place, and no reason her parents, doctor and even she have the decisions about her life be legislated by ANYONE.
Pro-life is not at all what it claims to be.
Why does it have to be the most extreme rare cases we have to debate? The overwhelming majority of abortions are undisclosed reasoning. Which is code for: “f them kids”. The whole concept for Roe V Wade was: Safe, Legal and Rare. And we turned it into birth control.
As I said I'm pro life in most situations lol. But extreme cases do exist and I was just wondering people's responses to them.
Honestly it’s up to the family and there ultimate choice in the matter as well as the child’s mother abortion is very sad after my son was born I got my sons mother pregnant again and at that time we couldn’t afford it so we aborted it and it was very sad and painful because she wanted to abort my son and I fought her tooth and nail against it and I was doing what I fought so hard to prevent it was selfish of us to not be using pretection that took a few months to get over she was devistated
If she would die from giving birth then she should have C-section. A 13 year old giving birth is too dangerous and often results in life long Urinary and bowel incontinence problems. I'm pro life but of course the 13 year old girl's life matters too so in saying that only a doctor can evaluate the risks involved in such cases
A c section can also be life threatening and can also cause life long complications
The abortion can also be life threatening and cause life long complications.
Eh, but it's substantial lower risks in this case. For a healthy adult woman I would say the risks are more similar though.
On the case of abortion. Why can't govt entities and uninvolved people mind their own business. Its up to the 13yr old and guardians/parent's decision. Not anybody elses.
If someone came up to you and said, "You can't do blank." You'd tell them mind your business or f-off. This is samething. Unless it involves you, shut up.
That is a ridiculous hypothetical. "KNOW THEY WILL DIE"
Abort the baby she lives! Hallelujah
Give birth or have a C-section... the girl dies.
Not playing this game.
The problem with this "pro-choice" argument is that we cannot know for certain whether or not a female would die from giving birth. Also, many women have died due to the abortion procedure.
We could know though whether or not a girl or woman is at a very high risk with the pregnancy.
Not necessarily.
You could, lol. Just like you can tell the risks for surgery. It's an estimated percentage, everyone has some level of risk; but some have significantly more risk than others.
Estimates are constantly wrong.
No... lol. Theyre estimates. Saying a person has 50% chance of dying, and then they don't die... the estimate wasn't wrong 🤣🤣
And according to my estimate, there's a 100% chance that the scenario with the imaginary 13-year- old is a construct designed to support the "pro-choice" position.
I’m pro life but in this case, I’m pro the mother’s life as is with cases of SA or if the fetus is severely deformed (in the early stages) to the point where it won’t be able to live a quality life
A 13 year old girl should be allowed abortion in any case, im for abortion in some cases but id on't agree with abortion on demand or unregulated abortion.
That would qualify for "the life of the mother" exclusion.
I am morally opposed to abortion unless the pregnancy was due to SA/abuse etc.. That being said idc if people get an abortion.
What is the percentage of 13 year olds who will die if they give birth?
Just one is enough
It's five times as many as women who are 20-25. A significantly higher risk. Of course it's person to person, but it's often obvious when a pregnancy would be high risk to a little girl and there's tests to determine those risks.
@RainbowMarinade You sure about that? So people die from drinking too much water. If the risk of death means we have to adjust public policy, then how do you think we should legislate water?
@gorydetails
Who is forcing you to drink too much water?
@RainbowMarinade are you deliberately trying to miss the point? You're trying to explain that legislation and a position of a subject depends on the extreme edge cases. I'm doing the same thing.
You asked what percentage of 13yo’s die when giving birth. What difference dies that make? Is the life of one 13yo not worthy?
Do you requires a certain number of deaths before the life of a 13yo becomes important enough to consider?
I didn’t miss your point. Your point was stupid. Drinking water is not forced on you and is not in any way comparable to child birth ffs.
@RainbowMarinade Neither is having sex for the most part. We make these decisions every day with everything. Quit looking at the world like a toddler. There's no food/medicine/policy/event on the planet that you would consider good for society that doesn't kill people as an unintended or unwanted side effect.
@gorydetails
“We make these decisions every day with everything.” Yes. We do. For ourselves.
If you support people making their own decisions, why does it feel like you are arguing against giving people the ability to make their own decisions?
Because not enough 13yo’s die in childbirth?
@RainbowMarinade No, not just for ourselves. As a society. I am saying that you are using an emotionally manipulative edge case to justify a policy that you feel society should implement. It's intellectually dishonest.
@gorydetails
You’re the only one talking about legislation and policy. The question was asking if pro-lifers think it should be allowed.
Apparently you believe that a certain number should have to die before it should be considered.
How many dead 13yo’s would be too many….. for you?
@RainbowMarinade so you're going to stick with the emotional manipulation, eh? So you are ok with 700 dead children annually so you can drive to Starbucks?
@gorydetails
Lmao
“so you're going to stick with the emotional manipulation, eh?” No. I’m going to stick to the topic of the thread.
“So you are ok with 700 dead children annually so you can drive to Starbucks?”
Ummm….. wtf are you on about?
Generally, why do you oppose abortion?
@RainbowMarinade You know what I'm on about. 700 children die annually from auto accidents. If you're so worried about this hypothetical 13 year old who dies from not getting an abortion, I'm wondering why you are so cavalier about the 700 children who die in car accidents so that you can drive a car?
Abortion kills a human child. And the vast majority (well over 95% of them) are done solely for convenience, not because a poor 13 year old will die if she doesn't get one.
@gorydetails
I can appreciate your need to muddy the waters here with your cries of “ done solely for convenience.” But that is not what were talking about here.
Specifically, if it has been determined that a 13yo was going to die in childbirth, should she have abortion as an option?
You accuse me of emotional manipulation, yet you can’t bring yourself to answer the question.
Why is that?
@RainbowMarinade If a 13 year old is going to die in a car accident, should you have the option to drive?
32.9 out of every 100000 women die a year from childbirth, while less than 15 a year die from auto accidents. You're statistically over twice as likely to die from childbirth as you are from just getting in a car. If you're under 14 then it is 10 times more likely.
If car accident deaths were 10 times more common than they are now, would you not think more on whether or not YOU want to go to Starbucks or if it should be used less often? You'd at least be considerably more cautious, no doubt. And be less judgmental of pedestrians.
If only there was a way to prevent yourself from getting pregnant.
@gorydetails
Okay. Fine
Lets ask this question in a way that makes it a little more relevant to the topic at hand.
If you know that the driver of the car you were about to get in was headed for a fiery crash, should you have the option to choose to not die?
If a 13yo is going to die in childbirth, should she have the option to not die?
Yes. The answer to both is Yes!
I'm specifically talking about little girls, not women or even older teenagers. Not even ALL 13yo girls. Just the ones who are comparable to a car that's had its breaks cut in a world where fatalities from crashes are 10 times more likely. Even just a 5% chance of surgery death for my 80yo grandpa is something everyone is dealing with very cautiously. If there was a dice with a 50 sides, for any of the sides you roll except for one of them; a baby randomly somewhere in the world will not be aborted, but it has a high chance of miscarrying or not surviving the birth. And if you get that one number; you die once the baby is maybe born, might miscarry anyway.
@RainbowMarinade So you would choose not to die by banning cars?
@gorydetails
Where to fuck would you get that idea?
You making the personal choice to not get in a car is not suggesting that all cars be banned.
Comprehension issues?
@RainbowMarinade ok, fair enough. Don't get pregnant, make that personal choice. Then you don't have to worry about being able to get an abortion.
@gorydetails
Lol. Notice you still didn’t answer the original question.
It’s okay. We know you would rather see the 13yo die if it meant you could prevent all women from having abortions.
Seems you’re the one who wants to see stuff banned. Not me
@RainbowMarinade and I know you'd rather see a 13-year-old die so that you can use your car.
@gorydetails
Did that actually make sense in your head?
Because it doesn’t really connect with the conversation we’re having.
Where the fuck did you come up with that idea?
Please, by all means, show me the thought process that brought you to that conclusion.
I could use a good laugh. It’s been a busy day.
@RainbowMarinade I’ve explained it crystal clear. I’m failing to see how you can’t understand normal thinking.
You’re so worried (and expect everyone else to be) concerned for this theroetical 13 year old who would die if she didn’t get an abortion so you want abortion legal, but you’re fine with the hundreds of children dying on highways so that you can use a car.
You thought you were cute by trying to get all sanctimonious about this child’s life, but when your own actions cause children to die, you act like you suddenly don’t know how things work.
@gorydetails
Car accidents happen. It’s a risk we take for the convenience of travel. Overall, it’s generally a safe method, but humans are involved, so errors are inevitable.
This does not compare to a 13yo, in a life or death situation, being denied a lifesaving procedure. And why would she be denied? Because you don’t like it?
This is what you consider to be “normal thinking?” Seriously?
See, what you appear to be saying is, because children die in other ways, I have no reason to be concerned about these children? Is that right? Children die in car accidents, so why would I even care about some 13yo somewhere that this could happen to? Smh!
You is funny, but I’m done for tonight.
Feel free to keep telling me how believing that someone should be allowed to choose to save their own life is the same as banning the entire society from something else completely.
It will give me something to laugh at with my coffee in the morning.
@RainbowMarinade And pregnancies happen, it’s the risk you take when you have sex.
@gorydetails
A risk a woman should give her life for, even if there is a procedure that can save her life?
Yeah, that sounds about right. You’ll never have to risk your life or sacrifice you body to become a parent, so what’s the big deal if other people have to?
SHE HAD SEX 😱😱😱😱😱
If the result is death, she deserves it.
Right?
@RainbowMarinade And the millions of unborn children who sacrifice their body and life? Where’s your hand-wringing for them?
@gorydetails
LMAO 🤣
And you accuse me of “emotional manipulation?” Those questions are nothing but emotional. C’mon now
My concern generally lays with people who are already born. A fertilized egg just isn’t the equivalent of a born person.
You won’t get any hand-wringing from me. I support a woman’s right to choose. 🤷♀️
@RainbowMarinade it's not a 'right to choose'. it's a right to kill their unborn child. That's what you want. At least own up to it.
@gorydetails
Ahhh yes. More of the “emotional manipulation” you accused me of. What a wonderful example to the typical right wing’s strategy of accusing others of what you do yourself. And you even called it “intellectually dishonest.” A little self reflection might be necessary before saying stuff like this in the future. 🤔
I want to right to say who can and who cannot use my body. I also want to right to be able to choose a procedure that will save my life if needed.
You’ll never be forced to allow another to attach themselves to your body in an effort to sustain their life.
I just want to have rights to my body as you have. 🤷♀️
Do you believe that because I have a vagina and a uterus that I am not entitled to the same rights as you?
@RainbowMarinade ooh, now we're going right wing. The baby isn't your body. It's someone else's body. It has a unique genetic code.
@gorydetails
Where does the unborn reside?
@RainbowMarinade Inside of you.
@gorydetails
Well done 👍
Inside is the correct answer.
You don’t believe people should have domain over the inside of their own body?
Are you a supporter of forced organ donation?
@RainbowMarinade Is the organ a separate human being?
@gorydetails
It’s to save the life of a separate human being. Isn’t that the Pro-Life’s ultimate goal?
@RainbowMarinade right, in your extreme edge case. So to protect this one 13 year old, you're ok with abortion being restricted in other cases?
@gorydetails
I am not, but that’s a different conversation. (One, it’s fair to say, we can probably engage in when the topic comes up again. And you know it will.)
We are talking about life and death situations, and what is reasonable to expect of others when it comes to saving lives.
So…. is that a No on the forced organ donations? Are you saying you are not willing to sacrifice your body to save the life of another? 🤔
@RainbowMarinade Ah, so the 13 year old was just a red herring.
@gorydetails
No. The 13yo was the topic of conversation from the get go.
So…. are you willing to subject your body to the use of others in an effort to save lives, much like you expect pregnant women to do for their growing fetuses?
C’mon. It’s a simple question. I know you can answer it. All you gotta do it try
@RainbowMarinade as I said, we'll play that game. In the life of the mother, abortion is ok, but otherwise not.
@gorydetails
Well there you have it folks. We finally got an answer, and it only took a mere 40+ additions to the conversation to get it.
👏 👏👏👏👏👏
It was a difficult admission for sure, but you did finally admit that, yes, a women has a right to choose to save her own life.
How magnanimous of you.
Warms the heart ❤️
@RainbowMarinade I’m glad you agree that abortions for convenience should be illegal.
@gorydetails
Which part gave you that impression?
@RainbowMarinade you keep insisting that you’re only interested in saving the life of a 13 year old.
@gorydetails
I do? Again? Where did I say that?
@RainbowMarinade I thought that was the original question that you keep reminding me of... we're worried about this 13-year-old girl surviving.
13 year old girls don't die from giving birth and even if they do it is impossible to predict.
no that could be risky
id slit her troat thereby killing them both in one fell swoop
Nope that 13 year old chose to have sex.
Loool
And women should be willing to sacrifice their lives because they decided to have sex?
Meh! I believe women have more value than that tbh
@anonymous So you'd rather the 13 yr old die and fetus die. Or save the 13yr old's life. One or both die.
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