For those following the ICJ today, what do you think of the presentation so far?

[VIVANT]

https://www.youtube.com/live/4f_yoal4gx8?si=t__GKGqYyeLKVlsa
(video begins the hearing at about 9 minutes 45 seconds.)

Court session has begun this January 11, 2023, to hear observations from parties on the request for the application of provisional measures submitted by the republic of South Africa. In the case concerning application of the convention of prevention & punishment of genocide on the Gaza Strip. South Africa vs Israel.

I am sick today 🤒 so I was up early in bed and since South Africa begins their day 6 hours earlier than where I live where there there are only live streams, this steam is already recorded.

Peace to you all, be well 💜

I’m watching

Not watching

Will watch later

Other

Updates

+1 y

5 Key points of 🇿🇦 presentation: 01/11/24

1) 🇮🇱 officials meant what they said when they uttered genocidal statements & were understood by troops. One cannot argue they are being ‘misconstrued.’

2) Even 🇮🇱 supposedly humanitarian actions (e. g. evacuation order) are genocidal, because they constitute mass displacement, aid being withheld, & people in safe areas are still being bombed.

3) 🇮🇱 is not ONLY in this case for committing genocide, but doing next to nothing to prevent genocide—

Updates

+1 y

3 cent’) — and punish those that incite genocide

4) 🇮🇱 is still the occupying power in Gaza & so 🇮🇱 cannot argue it is acting in self-defence over territory it controls, but even IF it could, self-defence can never take the form of genocide.

5) 🇮🇱 claims it only attacks Hamas, but the extent of destruction, clearly indiscriminate, cannot then be described as a "manhunt" for Hamas. There is a risk for irreparable harm to 🇵🇸 lives, which then justifies ordering of provisional means.

[abc3643]

I'm not watching because I generally do not watch TV and am working.

However, to me, it's very simple: If Israel was going to commit genocide, they wouldn't have warned the Gazans to get out of the way in their war with Hamas. The Israelis simply would have killed them all. The warning shows intent of not wanting genocide.

Frankly, though, I do not give a shit. There are two kinds of genocides: Offensive and Defensive. Offensive genocide means you are going on the offense and just trying to take out the enemy. Defensive genocide means taking out the enemy (who attacked you first) so that they never do it again; that is, it is threat elimination. Like wiping out cancer.

Well, the Israelis have put up with a lot of shit for the past 75 years and what happened on October 7th was the last straw. If they were to wipe out the Gazans, well, so what? It's not that I've lost my humanity and that innocents will have died, but a problem would be solved and no one from Gaza would be attacking Israelis again. And it's not like humans are an endangered species needing protection or that Gazan culture is precious.

Remember this because it is true:

>>>>> In the over 2+ million year history of the genus Homo (that is, humans), there have been countless genocides, yet not once has there ever been a victim of a successful genocide that ever complained.

==========

These people brought it on themselves by their complicity with Hamas. They are now paying the price. If you don't want to be killed, then don't start a war with those who will then kill you.

[abc3643]

South Africa is full of shit and they should know better.

[VIVANT]

Seems like South Africa would be the perfect country to know exactly what they are talking about, given their history,

[VIVANT]

Oh, Warren does not take away from genocide. The warning itself was an act of genocide displacement is an active genocide, forcing people who cannot move or not mobile or ill or elderly or sick or weak, or already malnourished to move under threat of death. Is it after genocide murdering them along the way when they go through the supposedly safe passages and when they arrive to the supposedly safe places, it’s not an active defense. It is an act of genocide. Promising to kill more and more and more and more it’s not an act of self-defense. It is an act of genocide.

Despite whatever anyone thinks of South Africa, they have filed a case. The focus should be on the case and not the feelings about South Africa although, as I said, I think South Africa is the perfect country, because of their own experiences with genocide an apartheid, the genocide been committed upon Africans and the parts, and that they had to experience for decades, after.

South Africa has filed the case on the basis that Israel is breaching the UN convention on genocide by "killing Palestinians in Gaza, causing them serious bodily and mental harm, and inflicting on them conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction". That’s what the cases about not South Africa now what country brought the case to court. And it is not about Hamas. Hamas can be tried in a criminal court. It is about Israel conduct in itself.

[VIVANT]

South Africa filed the case, arguing that Israel is breaching the UN convention on genocide by "killing Palestinians in Gaza, causing them serious bodily and mental harm, and inflicting on them conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction".

[Lliam]

I haven't been watching. I'll read summaries once they are posted by reputable journalists.
I hope it develops into a full-blown war crimes/crimes against humanity tribunal like Nuremberg, but I'm not holding my breath. Zionists control too much of the world to be held to account. Not only are they the masters of lies and deception, they will cry "Antisemitism!"

[Lliam]

Thanks for the update, Vivant. 100% correct.

[VIVANT]

After they completed their wish list of lies and more lies of what has actually happened, then claimed Hamas made them do everything ever in history even before Hamas existed, the essence of their their argument was that any criticism is antisemitic and the hearing is illegitimate bc the ICJ itself is antisemitic. . And the lawyers work for Hanes.

Unbelievable well, I wish it was unbelievable but I guess it really is not.

[ManOnFire]

@VIVANT How come nobody talks about all the Hamas guys who have been interrogated admitting to using their own people as shields and using hospitals and schools? How come no one is talking about how 75% of Palestinians support Hamas and were cheering when that Israeli girl was being paraded through the streets? How come nobody talks about the Palestinian mothers who get on regional TV praising their kids being martyrs for shedding the blood of Israelis "in the streets"?

How come what Israel does now makes it a genocide, but for decades Palestinians have propped up their whole nation on a mission to wipe out Isreal? Can you explain this to me?

[Lliam]

@ManOnFire. How could she explain to someone who is so completely misinformed and emotionally attached to their beliefs. You gulp propaganda like Gatorade.

You're not asking for information. You're just having a fit that anyone would question Israel's lies.

[ManOnFire]

@Lliam Except that these things don't just come from Israel. Memri TV, a regional network over there, has broadcasted Palestinian mothers praising their kids killing Israelis. It's also not a secret that Palestine wants Israel wiped off the map and it's in the Hamas constitution. The Arab neighbors of Israel and Palestine don't even want Palestinians because they've caused trouble even in their own nations and killed the president of Jordan in the 70s.

See, I can actually give you the facts, that are not just from Israel. However @VIVANT can't face me at all.

[Lliam]

@ManOnFire. And your "facts" aren't one sided at all. pffffft

[ManOnFire]

Thank you but I would like to hear from @VIVANT. Explain genocide to me when Jordan killed between 10,000 to 25,000 Palestinians in just 11 days in the 1970s, yet no one took them to IC or even called it a genocide.

[Sevenpointfive]

@ManOnFire we didn't have social media back then. we only had liberal media

[Lliam]

@VIVANT. Since your original post, I have watched three presentations. The black South African man, the white South African woman, and the Irish woman. They laid out the case accurately.
I can't bring myself to listen to those who stood in Israel's defense.

[menina]

I didn't watch it, but I heard about it on the news. I agree with all the points of your update. But unfortunately I think nothing good will happen. The cruelty won't stop anytime soon...

[VIVANT]

I think the delivery was solid, unfortunately I agree there is too much corruption in our so called “peace” institutions, the ICJ is tainted with corrupt judges, the UN Security Council and the INT criminal court are even worse… I hope to be surprised by the outcome but I think at most it will have a strong impact on the international community. It’s not insignificant that 🇿🇦 made it this far & Israel, U S etc, Can’t walk back from this crazy genocidal orgy and this is on blast for everyone in the world to see. It’s something, it’s not enough but it’s not nothing. The court will appear very obviously biased and absurd. To listen to 🇵🇸 then to 🇮🇱 it’s not even in the same planet, for a judge to not minimally condemn Israel for not making an effort towards prevention let alone fully volitionally calculatedly committing these disgusting acts, they will just be showcasing they are not real. It’s not a real court…But what can we do with that, I don't know.

[menina]

Yes, you're absolutely right. Which is also why I believe that nothing is going to happen.

We live in a cruel world...

[menina]

Thank you for the MHO.

[KatherineJ]

What credibility does South Africa, or the ICJ even have?

[VIVANT]

both Israel and South Africa are signatories of the Genocide Convention, which paves the way for case at the ICJ. Being a member gives SA the right and being a member gives Israel a right defend itself.

South Africa filed the case on the basis that Israel is breaching the UN convention on genocide by "killing Palestinians in Gaza, causing them serious bodily and mental harm, and inflicting on them conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction".

I’m not sure what you are complaining about. Whether you agree or disagree with the case, do you want their to be no international community, no accountability, everyone does whatever they want? Bc that’s not what the world agreed to after ww2. The idea is to prevent world war of carafe the perfect environment for it.

[strateguy632]

still, israel helped arabs evacuate ALIVE, that is not genocide.

[KatherineJ]

@VIVANT RSA has a terrible human rights record. As for their “case” against Israel, if HAMAS wasn’t using civilians as human shields, I would have no complaint. But they are hiding behind the innocent civilian population, while attacking Israel, and that in itself should be a war crime. But no one is talking about that part….. It’s a tragedy, of Hamas’s own creation.

[Sevenpointfive]

@strateguy632 no. the world saw the genocide of arabs and demanded israel to stop! i see you didn't follow this war too closely

[KatherineJ]

@Sevenpointfive so Israel has no right to defend itself from attacks within that territory? Got it.

[Sevenpointfive]

what territory? they don't own a territory!

[KatherineJ]

@Sevenpointfive wrong! See? You don’t even have a factual argument. Gaza is autonomous from Israel. Don’t try to peddle lies to me.,

[Sevenpointfive]

israel knew about this attack 1 year before it happened. and to cover it up it bombs and kills it's own people? i'm not convinced it wasn't an operation constructed by the israelis and blamed on the palestinians.

[OlderAndWiser]

I am at work and not following it at all. I would say that i have little confidence in international courts.

[strateguy632]

many countries already specified that they do not recognize the court due to the issue of representative. for example guam and more.

[VIVANT]

I find that completely understandable.

[VIVANT]

@OlderAndWiser 👇🏻

[VIVANT]

I meant ⬆️

[VIVANT]

@strateguy632 how many countries?

[OlderAndWiser]

We're good!

[GoodGuyBreakingBad]

Just wondering about it, not to sure

[BCA6010]

South Africa has exactly zero room to be complaining about someone else's human rights violations, so I don't really care what they have to say on the matter.

If you want a serious case against Israel, then they should instead be talking about Azerbaijan, but even then, Israel is more of an accessory and it's Turkey who should be on blast, but this isn't really about justice or human rights and everyone with a brain knows that.

[VIVANT]

According to you what is justice?

[strateguy632]

they "feel holy" by accusing someone else. it distracts from their own shameful history.
kinda like democrat peoples party in u. s. with its slave history, and biden oppose integration. people forget if you distract them.

[Sevenpointfive]

i'm catching up. the SA government seems like a small voice for now. i don't know what the SA has with the jews? probably a lot and that's a significant speak out. jews are imperializing in all directions with USA support and also UK.

I wish they'd do it and not drag it out. then what matters next happens.

[VIVANT]

Zionists which is a fascist political ideology that uses Judaism and the real historical persecution of Jews as a cover their acts…“human shields” ironically.

Zionism is an acting to the Jewish faith. Zionism does not act in line with the principles of Judaism.

There are actually more non Jewish Zionists in the world than there are Jewish Zionists.

But yes this allows to stop. My expectations are low but hope is high. It’s such a weird mix.

[Sevenpointfive]

then why are we and everyone in the media protecting zionism? i think you're wrong. if zionism was the problem then this shit would stop. the jewish democracy put them in power. i don't hear any jews crying about gazans or palestinians. all i hear is support israel

[Anonymous]

What has South Africa ever done to present the murder of Jews anywhere in the planet in the history of the world?

nothing, so they have nothing of relevance to say in this. whole thing is a sham. These Israelis didn’t start this, Hamas did, nobody condems hamas for what they did.

[KrakenAttackin]

Anon... SA has their own major human rights issues that need to be addressed, such as the state endorsed farm murders.

[Opinion Owner]

@KrakenAttackin agreed after so many many years of a apartheid there suddenly the righteous ones that have any authority to pass judgment on someone else?

[KrakenAttackin]

Op... Botha was right about everything.

[VIVANT]

The relevance is both Israel and South Africa are signatories of the Genocide Convention, which paves the way for case at the ICJ. Being a member gives SA the right to bring charges and and being a member gives Israel a right defend itself.

South Africa filed the case on the basis that Israel is breaching the UN convention on genocide by "killing Palestinians in Gaza, causing them serious bodily and mental harm, and inflicting on them conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction".

Tia is not predicated on SA personal history the matter at hand. Tho I think it is because he South Africa‘s experience with genocide upon their own people and the apartheid for decades that took place after that they had to fight against that makes them the perfect country to bring for these charges, although there’s nothing stopping any other country for bringing forward charges

I think complaining about South Africa being the one to bring for charges bit of red herring because the charges said people forward. And if they are charges that should be brought forward against the countries bringing these charges forward against Israel then that’s another case. It’s important to recognize international law and to have some safety net for accountability. We don’t wanna go into world war, the Geneva convention for we’re established for a reason.

[VIVANT]

And honestly, this really is a case of let he who is without sin cast the first stone, if all countries could only address any matter because they had never done anything in the violation of any code. Everyone would have to remain silent that’s not how we bring about change.

Jewish people are not being charged and they are not under threat by Israel being charged if anything Israel is putting Jewish people under threat by calling what they are doing against the Palestinians and neighboring countries an act of defense for the Jewish people. Because it makes Jewish people look like psychopaths, which we’re not in Zionism is in violation of Judaism. Zionists cynically Jewish people as cover for their exploits — disgusting and despicable crime in itself, even without the terror torture and slaughter upon the Middle East.

[Opinion Owner]

Hamas all this, and it’s been going on for decades. I agree with Israel’s tenacious volition to utterly eradicate Hamas.
You are anti-Semitic. Just like all the other fools on universities throughout the United States. Somehow you think it’s OK to hate Jews and here is your opportunity.
You will be held accountable.
I think you are an utter fool.
You have a good vocabulary, and you can string words together, but that does not minimize your idiocy

[KrakenAttackin]

@VIVANT. I have to check you there. Under apartheid the black majority did much better by ANY benchmark, ranging from life expectancy, to educational attainment, and economically. Under black rule SA has crumbled into a shadow of itself.

[Sevenpointfive]

that's because they found out that hamas wasn't to blame and it was actually the Israeli's killing their own people and tourists

[ZackBan]

I don't think a court of law can have any impact on zionist superpowers. They are far too rich and have their hand in everything.

[VIVANT]

I agree but I’m also hoping this has social impact which can impact laws, if they do absolutely nothing in the face of all the evidence with the world watching while Zionists refuse o recognize their own actins let alone stop, I don't know. I think it is too damming even for Zionists... I think the court will have to do something, not enough but some thing and it sets a precedent moving forward. Historically this day will always be remembered and the “most moral army n ye world” is globally exposed as being anything but. ..

It’s weird my Expectations are low but my hope is still there. Well, even empires fall Zionists using behind Judaism to stir up trouble and terrorize the ME can’t go on endlessly. The concern is it takes too long and too many many more people are harmed/ die.

Take care, my friend.

[ZackBan]

That was so beautifully stated.
You have my vote if ever you ran for an office I can vote for 😉

And I do have to admit that this is the first time since the zionists landed in the Levant that they are being so openly exposed. They used to run a very good game of make-believe playing the victims and the righteous at every turn conveniently censoring all acts of animalistic cruelty.
But now the cat is finally out of the bag and sure some will defend and make excuses and debate stances and ideology but no one can claim purity anymore without being called out as delusional.

[ManOnFire]

I don't take that crap seriously. It's ironic to me that people are saying Israel is committing genocide, when for decades the Palestinians have literally had the objective of "wiping Israel off the map." Now these people are facing bloodshed from the very people they've hated and wanted to wipe out, and they think it's an unfair and inhumane ball game.

[Grond21]

I'm sure they're going to default against Israel, like most of the U. N tends to do. I'm also sure that none of the political actors are unbiased or uninvested in the outcome.

[VIVANT]

I agree fully about the lack of objectivity tho I think we diverge in the direction of that bias.

[Grond21]

Yeah, I think you're right. But even if I'm wrong in terms of how Israel should be behaving, they deserve an objective judgment. Otherwise it's just a political play

[soe11]

• Pointless to watch.
• No justice will prevailed.
• It's indeed a cosmetic sitting.

[VIVANT]

I think the institutions and the judges are all rigged, however it’s still good the world has an opportunity to see the arguments. Plus this will go on the record can't be washed off. There will be political implications for Israel and the U. S., and tho I do not expect the criminal court to be helpful, I think the ICJ will have to at least cal for _some_ provisional measures. And the ring is if nothing is done the UN will fall apart and that will be a disaster, I’m hoping that even countries who morally DGAF will want to avoid a world catastrophe. At the very least we may see some haunting.

[nawtee_me]

South Africa did not come to Israel’s aid when Hamas bombed Israel and kidnapped its citizens. So why should they care now? If North Africa bombed South Africa I bet they would retaliate too.

[VIVANT]

Why would sooty Africa come to the aid of an apartheid state after they fought so hard to beak down down their own apprehend state. If Israel recognizes and submitted to the international law that hostage taking is a war crime, they would not be holding and torturing torturing ten thousand Palestinian hostages in Israel. Inflating children. Including young children

This case is not about Hamas. Hamas will be tried in criminal court. This case is about Israel’s conduct and applying to the court to take measures to stop the slaughter.

SA would be very sensitive to this having endured the genocide of millions of their own people then the apprehend star for decades.

The inferring thing is all the countries who virtue signal about democracy do not lift a finger to support the freedom of a people. South Africa stepped up when no others would.

[strateguy632]

i say each country needs to punish its own people but never by outsiders.

never "interfere with sovereign"... any nation "even" and including israel.

the only need of international was when nazi law was not violated when mass murder jews... could not judge by local law. so needed...

to judge mass murder and real genocide. otherwise only local court by local law.

[OfDeath]

South Africa should volunteer to accept 100% of Palestinian refugees

[VIVANT]

Why should Palestinians be forced to leave their home. Do Hu want to go live in South Africa. Someone comes to your home slaughter your animals rapes your children kills your family and says ok this is mine rod is a mess for you anyways you don’t want to stay, go to SA. You will say ok that’s fine? Pros it ok for “other” people

[OfDeath]

I mean if SA are so concerned, they should accept the refugees. The why is irrelevant now. Palestinians are already forced to leave their homes. The buildings are rubble.
Someone will have to accept hoards of angry Muslim refugees. The worst kind.

[strateguy632]

south africa should invite them... whoever wants... but SA won't because they don't really care. it is not about justice.

[OfDeath]

@strateguy632 Exactly. South Africa isn’t exactly a beacon of humanitarian justice so they should shut up or back up their concern with humanitarian action like offering to accept the refugees.

[TonyMetal___86]

Not watching but i hope that you heal fast skyscrapper girl, your health comes 1st 😌

[VIVANT]

Thank you Tony 🤗

[TonyMetal___86]

You're welcome 🤗

[KrakenAttackin]

@VIVANT. What happened to you?

[AmeerX]

I didn't watch as I was with friends and busy all day

[AmeerX]

The Israeli government action is put under the carpet by the UN and US and it's allies because they want to built a Israeli equivalent to the Suez Canal and for that Gaza strip is needed. They don't want to pay for the displacement cost and thus everyone is closing their eyes for profits and religiomaniacle nonsense

[VIVANT]

I think that’s a large part of it. I think wanting to set the precedent that they can get away with this an issue whine is powerless to stop it’s a huge incentive as well. And there is something wrong with all of them where they just like to kill people. How many problems in the world have been addressed with slaughter and domination when diplomacy would have been sufficient and where nothing improved only worsened, but they still do it again and agin. Like it’s a game.

[AmeerX]

Indeed, in the end if they threw 50 billion dollars since October for slaughter, they could have spend 350 billion to prop up the people simply.

[Anonymous]

i'm strongly against anything anti-Israel. I get it, there are corrupt on every side these issues, but the people of Israel as a whole are not at fault here. Palestine refuses to negotiate and even pretend to attempt peace, so fuck 'em and those who support them. South Africa--I love, but I can't watch them support the butchers of Palestine.

[strateguy632]

and also relevant a cease fire would abandon the hostages who #palestinian abducted and are holding.
israel can't stop until israel BRINGS HOME the jew hostages.
u. s. soldiers did a raid to get people out of gaza , but not American citizen held hostage.

[BoopBoopBeep]

I'm only watching because it's streaming for work. the ICJ is a paper tiger. I care more what the kids down the street think about my landscaping.

[Avicenna]

South Africa should be on the docket for genocide, not Israel. But the ANC is a bunch of anti-Semitic, corrupt Marxists.

[Lynx---]

Watching it now.