What do you think of The Vatican's comment on Transgender and Surrogacy?

[AviatorTom]

The Vatican has issued a statement about Transgender and Surrogacy.

Here is the story from the Associated Press ...

Vatican blasts gender-affirming surgery, surrogacy and gender theory as violations of human dignity

What do you think of this?

Updates

+1 y

I wonder if modern medicine has gone places, and enabled things, that maybe it should have left alone.

[NamerOfStars]

Here's the Declaration itself: https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_ddf_doc_20240402_dignitas-infinita_en.html Little of it is surprising; some of it, sadly, is stupid.

Unsurprisingly, difficulties arise from almost the first sentence: "In the light of Revelation, the Church resolutely reiterates and confirms the ontological dignity of the human person, created in the image and likeness of God and redeemed in Jesus Christ.". Dandy- except the Church hasn't done that since Paul stepped in. The best evidence currently available overwhelmingly says that homosexuality is a matter of epigenetics- so it's clearly something that happens post-conception, but pre-birth. By that logic, then, it's on the same moral level as a birth defect; either both are sins, or neither is. The equivalent in transsexuality, too, is then called into question.

The Church has sadly been lacking- rather sorely lacking, I should say- on this subject in the past, but basic epistemology says that sin requires moral agency. The issues this causes with making homosexuality a sin are obvious enough, but the problems here run deeper. "Our dignity is bestowed upon us by God; it is neither claimed nor deserved" is not only pointless abasement, since God (who you explicitly say you shouldn't try to make yourself) would be a better judge of that, but also runs directly contrary to "Instead, dignity is intrinsic to the person: it is not conferred subsequently (a posteriori), it is prior to any recognition, and it cannot be lost.". So yes, it IS deserved; even if it's not earned beforehand, it logically could be afterward.

The basis for this line of reasoning seems to be not so much the "God is so far above us all that human reason pales into insignificance in His presence, so we should sit down, shut up, and unquestioningly do what He says" that you see in Islam as the "we, as humans, are so unfailingly awful that we are meaningless and deserve whatever the universe doles out to us" that you see in abused children. You don't elevate God by knocking down humanity, Francis.

This isn't just me being finicky; it directly relates to the issues the declaration is about: “The path to peace calls for respect for life, for every human life, starting with the life of the unborn child in the mother’s womb, which cannot be suppressed or turned into an object of trafficking. In this regard, I deem deplorable the practice of so-called surrogate motherhood, which represents a grave violation of the dignity of the woman and the child, based on the exploitation of situations of the mother’s material needs. A child is always a gift and never the basis of a commercial contract. Consequently, I express my hope for an effort by the international community to prohibit this practice universally.”. Well, I understand the idea of not turning life into a commodity, and I don't disagree with it (though in light of that fact- which the stated objections to "the selling of human tissues" and mutilations- you really need to be looking more at what's done to BOYS than to women), but given that those children WOULD NOT EVEN EXIST without surrogacy, you are quite literally placing yourself in the role of God and defending the dignity of those who, not being conceived, don't have any.

Or is the argument that the existence of individual humans is an inevitability, and thus prohibiting priests from marrying, encouraging sexual abstinence, and condemning rape, are themselves sinful? You can't have it both ways.

As regards gender theory, I'll just repeat the declaration's own words: "Desiring a personal self-determination, as gender theory prescribes, apart from this fundamental truth that human life is a gift, amounts to a concession to the age-old temptation to make oneself God, entering into competition with the true God of love revealed to us in the Gospel.

58. Another prominent aspect of gender theory is that it intends to deny the greatest possible difference that exists between living beings: sexual difference. This foundational difference is not only the greatest imaginable difference but is also the most beautiful and most powerful of them."

I mean, I know "Tradcons gonna tradcon", but...

[BCRanger10]

I've not read the full document itself yet (though I intend to). From what I've gathered though, the parts on surrogacy and transgenderism were surprisingly strong and faithful to Church teaching. The rest of the document? Eh... maybe not so much.

[Amy10223]

My take is simple. Let God judge those who choose to do this, and not the Pope. The Pope should not make exclamations about what is right or wrong, although he is very respected in the Catholic Church, almost treated as God himself.

God does not judge the physique of a person; He judges your soul. Your soul does not have a gender. It is how you are as a person, not what or how you feel about in your own body that's due for judgement. Besides, the physical body is no longer yours when you die, and your spirit goes on.

[Siri137]

"Assigned" at birth? No. Determined at birth! How the hell can sex be "assigned"? Do these blithering idiots even understand the meaning of words, words like "assigned" and "determined"?

[Cheapskate]

I think as popes go, the current one is probably the best you could possibly expect.

But at the end of the day it's still a superstitious brainwashing cult which wields far more influence than it merits.

[Siri137]

The best? Don't you mean the WORST?

[Cheapskate]

@Siri137 No, I mean the best

[Agagagagaga]

@cheapskate No one takes you or your Oooh in on church matters or the Pope seriously.

Especially after you called it a “superstitious cult.” POS bigot.

[Agagagagaga]

Opinion

[bolverk]

What the Vatican statement about Transgender gender-affirming surgery, and gender theory as violations of human dignity means nothing to me given previous statements supporting them, as for surrogacy they should be supporting it as it is supportive of couples who cannot have children but they want a family which the Catholic Church is supposed to be supportive of.

[ThatBaldGuyOvetThere]

The Vatican has no business into these politics. Christianity is a hate fueled religion that thrives off of intolerance and extorting money. Love, tolerance and forgiveness are supposed to be major principles to abide by, but the only live they have is for violating little children.

Keep make believe religion out of politics. People worry too much about what everyone else is doing and not enough worrying about themselves.

[Siri137]

That's sarcasm, right?

[ThatBaldGuyOvetThere]

No. Religion has no place in our species anymore. The more we keep fighting over who's divine imaginary friend has the biggest dick, the more we regress back to a medieval mindset. Powerful people use it as a means to control and dominate and excuse bad behavior. The sooner we abolish religion. The faster we will advance and actually be able to work on advancing ourselves.

[Siri137]

And just how do you propose we "abolish religion"? Do what the Soviets under Stalin did back in the 1930's perhaps?

[ThatBaldGuyOvetThere]

If it comes to it, then yes. Sorry, but religion must be gotten rid of. Half of our problems would vanish. Ha e a good rest of your day and do t bother replying as it won't be read.

[Agagagagaga]

@ThatBaldGuyOvetThere The same passages in the Bible that have upset your Far Left sensibilities are the same passages that are in the Jewish Torah.

Now will you tell us that Judaism is a “hate fueled religion”? Hmmmm?

No, you’re a Lefty. Your hatred of organized religion only extends to Christianity. 😉👍🙄

[ThatBaldGuyOvetThere]

Hello little boy. Sorry your short sightedness has blinded you. Judaism IS hate fueled as well. All religion must go. Now do us a favor a shut your mouth when your betters speak. Bye bye little boy 😃

[Berethor]

The whole trans thing is a mental illness, and the trans surgeries are mutilation, that's all.

[exitseven]

I mostly question the fact that all of a sudden this has become such a big issue. I suspect that the indoctrination of our kids is the problem.

[purplepoppy]

Bit of a mixed message, welcome with one hand push away with the other

[nawtee_me]

While sexual sin is sin, we are all sinners in one way or another. It is only through a relationship with Jesus that grace is given. We will all be judged for our action and our words but grace covers all sin. That is the price Jesus paid for everyone that accepts Him as Lord and Savior. And for the rest, enjoy your life on earth because you will not like what awaits you in the afterlife.

[CheeseMonster]

So they think having babies should be mandatory for everyone who has straight sex and banned for everyone who doesn't? What a weird stance to take...

[Pennywise_6]

It's Satan's work.
All hell rejoices with the pope.

[Drewtate]

>>>>>>

[strateguy632]

they should make the issue sin not dignity

[gorydetails]

I see nothing outrageous.

[slatyb]

WGAF?

[Anonymous]

The Pope isn’t Catholic.

😉