What percent of the popular vote would have to go against Trump for you to believe he lost?

[msc545]

Five Percent

Ten Percent

Twenty Percent

Forty Percent

50 Percent

60 Percent

More than 60 Percent

[AviatorTom]

Popular vote has nothing to do with who wins a US Presidential election... electoral votes in the Electoral College decide that.

5 Presidents in US history have lost the popular vote and still won the election:

John Quincy Adams (1824, 30.92%), Rutherford B Hayes (1876, 47.92%), Benjamin Harrison (1888, 47.80%), George W Bush (2000, 47.87%), Donald Trump (2016, 46.09%)

In addition to those 5, 14 other elections have been decided where the Presidents won in the Electoral College with less than 50% of the popular vote:

Polk (1844, 49.54%), Taylor (1848, 47.28%), Buchanan (1856, 45.29%), Lincoln (1860, 39.65%), Garfield (1880, 48.31%), Cleveland (1884, 48.85%; 1892, 46.02%), Wilson (1912, 41.84%;1916, 49.24%), Truman (1948, 49.55%), Kennedy (1960, 49.72%), Nixon (1968, 43.42%), Clinton (1992, 43.01%; 1996,49.23% ).

The way most elections are held today, less than 50% would result in a runoff election, which has never been done for President.

So, to answer the question... I don't care what the popular vote is.

[DrPepper12]

None. He's already a loser

[dustybiker2]

One day they'll all realize how ridiculous they were for believing a word of his crap. But that is really not what they like. They like how he gives them all permisson to be a$$🕳️'s.

[OlderAndWiser]

You are asking: IF someone was going to tamper with, or rig, this election, how much do they need to do so that it won't be questioned? That seems to be a silly question.

[msc545]

No, I wasn't asking about what percentage of tampering would have to occur. It could also be just a percentage of voting legitimately.

I don't know how you managed to infer tampering from what I wrote but it is far from what I had in mind.

[OlderAndWiser]

1. You have perseverated on discussing Trump supporters who thought the 2020 election was rigged. Their stupidity is a recurring theme with you.

2. If the election is not rigged, getting one vote less than our opponent means you lost (ignoring the wrinkle of the Electoral College.) Why would there be a question?

[msc545]

No, again you have it backward. Trump supporters have perseverated in discussing election fraud, which does not exist in the US as a practical matter. I find that destructive and also clinically fascinating.

[OlderAndWiser]

Yes, I know, people on the left want to characterize all Trump supporters as mentally ill, and then complain about how our country is so severely divided.

[msc545]

In this case, those are your words and beliefs, not mine.

[GoodGuyBreakingBad]

30-42 %

[exitseven]

I say between 10 and 20 percent. Even if they could get all the illegal aliens to vote and they were able to print as many fake ballots as they did in 2020 I think i would be impossible to conceal fraud of that magnitude even with the collusion with the fake news and big tech companies.

[dustybiker2]

They did? Where was the proof? I thought they didn't find any.

[exitseven]

@dustybiker2 They did not find any because they did not look. Recently 3000 ballots were found to be fake in Fulton County Georgia. I am not sure about the circumstances of why it took so long but there was over a thousand people that submitted signee affidavits about voter fraud. The FBI was too busy investigating everyone who was in DC on Jan 6th to waste their valuable time looking at voter fraud. A lot of this will come out next year.

[dustybiker2]

What about the thousands Bush hid in florida storage?

[exitseven]

@dustybiker2 I barely remember the Bush election. I only remember the hanging chads.

[dustybiker2]

It was several years later they found them. Someone stopped paying the bill. lol

[monorprise]

It really has a lot more to do with what votes are counted

[goaded]

Or who counts the votes.

[monorprise]

@goaded That only matters if the people counted the votes get a only the real votes and all of them, which is of course not something you can verify in many states that use mail so extensively.

[msc545]

Without mail, a lot of people are not going to be able to vote since not everyone can come to the polling places easily. This is especially true for handicapped people or people without cars. Not everybody lives next door to a polling place.

[monorprise]

@msc545
There are such things as busses, taxis, urbers, etc.. If they can show up anywhere else they can show up to vote.

If they can't be bothered they also can't be bothered to do the prerequisite research to vote intelligently.

[msc545]

Nobody is required to do any research in order to vote. They just can vote. The real reason that you want to prevent people from voting is because you know that if a lot of people vote Republicans are more likely to lose and you are a Republican. Nobody believes the reasons that you 've used to justify suppressing voting.

[monorprise]

So you @msc545 believe because people inclined to do research on how to cast their vote or really invest any effort tend to vote republican.

That I really just want to abolish unverifiable black box of mail in voting and vote harvesting to give republicans a leg up.

Not because as I have previously said:
A: its unverifiable and thus enabling cheating,
or
B: I want to raise the quality of our elected officials as to actually get results rather than simply vote party line.

[goaded]

@monorprise So, someone ineligible to vote could send in a home made ballot drawn in crayon with their preference on it and have their illegal vote counted in your state?

[msc545]

You have reached an unwarranted and incorrect conclusion as to what I believe.

What I really believe is that all Americans of legal age and status should vote, and you probably believe the same thing, except that you also believe if that actually happens, republicans will lose. I think that you might be right, but only because poorer people and decent people cannot tolerate Republican policies of greed and punishment.

[monorprise]

@goaded I imagine there are democratic jurisdictions where they have counted less.
But serous voter fraud is more easily carried out in such places via phony registration, or simply altering or failing to deliver the unfavorable votes among countless other ways.
The most idea of which would depend upon the particular system of your particular state and the inclination of the previously elected via the same means politicians to enforce it honestly.

If you want an honest electoral system it must be simple and transparent enough for most of the population to understand and verify it from start to finish.

That means actual votes need to be cast on election day in person before representatives of both parties.
Registration need to verify unique State Citizenship prior to voting and listed so the public can re-verify the same.

[msc545]

You are unreasonably obsessed with checking up on people's and their votes. I will reiterate - Voting is PRIVATE and there are reasons for that. Your need to "verify" does not supersede those reasons. You seem unable to do the simple math required to calculate the number of "bad" votes that would be needed to affect the results of a given election with known parameters. That number is a much larger percentage of the total vote than you think it is - in fact so large that it would be very difficult to hide or even to accomplish in the first place.

What your "verification" really is is an attempt to inconvenience as many people as possible and keep them from voting.

[monorprise]

@msc545
By definition voting is an extremely PUBLIC act to wield control over the PUBLIC. The direction of your vote is ONLY private information to the extend we the PUBLIC deem your say in the matter is more honest when anonymous.

I of course generally agree with this observed fact in practice that "There is no honesty without anonymity".

That fact however has nothing to do with the need to verify whether or not you voted only what you voted for. In the matter of what you voted for you should be anonymous.
But whether or not you voted is very much an issue of Public need to know that has no bearing on the honesty of your vote outside of the aforementioned pressure to vote without judging oneself qualified to vote on any particular issue.

[msc545]

Again, your sole concern remains a desire to keep people from voting. Just admit it and then we can debate the validity of that desire. You are intelligent enough to understand that there is no election fraud in this country, and if there were it would be so small to have no effect, or conversely so large as to be discovered and remedied. Trump lost in 2020 because he is to many people a very unpleasant person, and not because of any sort of fraud.

[goaded]

@monorprise "I imagine..." Let me stop you there. That's never the basis for an argument, especially one that suggests that "someone ineligible to vote could send in a home made ballot drawn in crayon with their preference on it and have their illegal vote counted" in any state, at any time.

"If you want an honest electoral system it must be simple and transparent enough for most of the population to understand and verify it from start to finish."
OK, I'll grant that.

But all that's needed is that they ask "how do you know ballots are valid?". I'd be very surprised if every potential hole in the process they (or you) can come up with can't be answered clearly enough that the vast majority of the population can understand that the likely costs (fines, jail) far outweigh the benefits (a vote for your preferred candidate).

"That means actual votes need to be cast on election day in person before representatives of both parties."
Rubbish. That's never been the case since before the USA was created.

"Registration need to verify unique State Citizenship prior to voting and listed so the public can re-verify the same."
Where are the voter rolls not public? Which states, and what reason do they give?

You're just trying to undermine the democratic process so that a minority can take power and undo a century of progress that has led to a country that people love.

[monorprise]

@msc545 Yes my sole concern is voter integrity which is about guaranteeing every qualifying citizen the share of the vote they are entitled to.

That necessarily requires keeping unqualified votes from being casts regardless of whether or not that is from unqualified citizens or in excess of one from qualified citizens.
That requires a system of verification and given the enormous incentives to the people running that system to rig it, that system must be transparent and easy to understand for most voters To hold the same accountable.

[msc545]

And in your world, and "unqualified voter" is one who doesn't vote Republican.

[monorprise]

@msc545 I know a few unqualified voters who would vote republican if they could. A voters qualification however is their U. S. & State Citizenship.

[Sevenpointfive]

does it really matter? this is the last election if he doesn't win

[msc545]

It is also very possibly the last election if he does win.

[Sevenpointfive]

i know what i mean. that it will officially be the end of democratic elections. possibly civil war even. i'm not sure exactly what you mean though? please explain

[msc545]

I actually mean the same things that you meant.

[Anonymous]

The popular vote doesn't matter. They gave Biden 80 million votes in 2020, tens of millions more than any previous president, which is impossible. More than Obama? More than Clinton? More than Reagan? Not possible.

[goaded]

Of course it's possible. It happened.