Did you know that if you are not a Native American, you or your ancestors are all illegal immigrants?

[msc545]

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1 y

So everyone is thrashing around with this and claiming all sorts of things without evidence - as usual. So to even it out a bit, let's assume that the original inhabitants of the continental US came across the Bering strait from what is now Russia, and gradually populated the land that is now the US. These would be the indigenous people and since they were here first, it is THEIR land. We know they had preferences regarding ownership of the land (AKA "laws").

[Amy10223]

Yes, that can be said. We were not here in America first. The Pilgrims from England came, settled in areas where there were native Americans already here from Asia --across the Bering Strait hundreds of years before. they lived here peacefully for hundreds of years until the Pilgrims arrived from England. After learning how to cultivate crops from these natives who were friendly and helped them live here, they killed many of them with diseases that they brought from Europe, took their land and chased them off westward, claiming this land as their own. Many years later, when settlers grew in population, the natives saw that they were not as friendly as they seemed at first, and were most likely sorry they had helped them. Later on, Spaniards came to look for gold in Mexico and Florida, and priests came to try and convert the natives to Christianity. Blacks were pulled from Africa to be forced to work on the land. Many of these also died on boats in the time of the Dispora. Once they established themselves here, the settlers pretty much made this their homes and did not care who had been here before them.

Mexico had part of Texas, and Southern California before the Spanish American War and had that land taken from them. So it's ironic that today we want to keep Mexicans out of the country--when we had taken land away from them. In effect, WE were/are the thieves, -and WE were/are the immigrants who invaded and made this country. Then all the other immigrants later came as well, and they all fought with each other because they could not get along with other groups. By the 1940's, and later on with Cuban immigrants in the late 50's and 60's, it became a melting pot of different nationalities who still could not get along. And today there are still problems with racism and clashes between groups. The Cubans who came here left a Communist leader and most are supporting Trump, very much wanting to be a dictator with his fascist ideas, forgetting who they left behind in Cuba. I can't figure that out.

SO yes-- those who had been living here originally are now outcasts in their own country--living on reservations and being the LOWEST on the totem pole of economic standards in terms of wealth, education and jobs. Worst off than Blacks, worst off then Latinos, trying to survive on what little they have. They have only what little culture is left.

[PeachyPie93]

I'm half and half but I find it annoying when I see so many Americans and even Canadians telling other races to go back where you came from when they were born there, and even if they weren't.. its like why don't you go back to England or whatever place you came from asshole lol.

[Twalli]

Not at all, the country didn't exist. There was no law or act that said people couldn't come here without proper documentation or some such. Illegal immigrants come here by breaking the law. If there is no law, anything done in relation to that is not illegal. It's not illegal for me to pee in my bathroom sink. I can do it (I probably shouldn't, but I can without facing legal repercussions). Unless you see our immigration laws as retrogressive, meaning that they were in place before they were written, before we were a country, then I would agree. However, I have a feeling that my ancestors who fought to make the U. S. a country might disagree if you called them illegal immigrants. Until they decided to fight against The British Empire, they broke no laws.

[Sevenpointfive]

you're saying the country didn't exist? you broke bread with the people and genocided them

[Dongie]

Right!!

[Dongie]

The British. Their colony we just took it from them. Didn't break no bread. A fee soldiers but not bread.

[Dongie]

I have Cherokee in me lineage sport.

[Twalli]

@Sevenpointfive The landmass existed, but there weren't any laws governing entrance.

[Dongie]

precisely

[Sevenpointfive]

you know that's exactly the mentality of the vikings when they plundered

[msc545]

This is a specious rebuttal. A law is a rule or set of rules created and enforced by a governing authority to regulate behavior, maintain order, and protect rights within a society. Laws typically have consequences for violations to ensure compliance and social stability. Ask General Custer about the consequences.

[NathanDavis]

if you're going to be selective about how far back you can go in "origins"

then that's going to be selective indeed... we're all descendants to the same ancestor tribe that originated from somewhere in which today is Sudan... (at least per the last findings currently are)

so we're all legal or illegal, lol

[OlderAndWiser]

Were there laws regulating immigration when the Mayflower landed in Plymouth?

[msc545]

I don't know about laws as such, but clearly, there were tribal preferences that had to be fairly obvious to the invaders. Ask Gen. Custer about this.

[OlderAndWiser]

Let's imagine that 100,000 people crossed the Bering Straits to get to North America. Why are the first 1,000 considered indigenous and the next 99,000 are "illegal aliens?" Or if I go to Asia today and return to the US via the Bering Straits, who doesn't that make me indigenous?

[msc545]

I have no idea. I am not part of the group screaming about "illegal immigrants" (as an attempt to conceal the underlying racism and fear of them voting "incorrectly" if and when they become citizens).

[OlderAndWiser]

I haven't heard anyone complain about the possibility of illegal aliens voting "incorrectly." The fear I have heard is that illegal aliens will vote in favor of those who offered them so much welfare at the expense of all taxpayers.

[msc545]

Odd that. I hear nothing but MAGA complaining about illegal aliens as if the illegality of their entry is the issue. It does not take much critical thinking to wonder a bit about this since it is essentially a victimless crime, and I conclude that there is more to it - MAGA is far from law-abiding.

MAGA may not be wrong about what you said hypothetically, but then that begs the question of why it is that nobody can find those illegal votes in any meaningful numbers at all after an ungodly number of audits and lawsuits, almost all MAGA-driven.
So why bring it up at all? Just raising the specter of such a thing, ephemeral as it is, is enough to convince many people, accustomed to believing lies, to believe yet one more and vote accordingly for Republicans.

So untrue as it is - it has apparent political utility and is not easily refuted or even validated.

[msc545]

You said "The fear I have heard is that illegal aliens will vote in favor of those who offered them so much welfare at the expense of all taxpayers."

I contend that you have just neatly described what MAGA would consider to be an "incorrect vote" since it would be for Democrats. Republicans offer immigrants nothing of value and much of contempt and difficulty.

[msc545]

I have never heard MAGA complain about the illegal aliens that voted for Republicans.

[OlderAndWiser]

You need to go to the emergency room to be treated for your overdose on Kool-Aid.

[msc545]

You need to get some sleep. You have a better response than that drivel.

[OlderAndWiser]

You rarely respond to what I actually say. You just use the completion of my response as your cue to launch your next round of rhetoric.

[msc545]

Considering I quite literally quoted what you said I would consider. Respectfully that I in fact responded. However, if you didn't don't consider what I said to be a response then indicate that and I will try again.

[Caroline91]

Yes. Yes I do know that. And with my mix, there are numerous countries I could be deported to.

[msc545]

I could be deported to Italy, Greece, or France. I am going to pick Italy for when I get deported...

[Caroline91]

For network be The Netherland, Ireland, England, France, Italy, Wales, Germany or Libya. I think I would be torn between Ireland and The Netherlands. At least in Ireland I already speak the language. Lol

[RageBabe]

Why not Libya?

[Caroline91]

*For me it would be

[Caroline91]

@RageBabe Mostly bc i don’t speak Arabic, but also the climate.

[RageBabe]

Okay.

[Dongie]

Ah, so could I. Even to stick around here. Am just a mutt.

[Caroline91]

@Dongie In this scenario, only if you are at least part Native American.

[Dongie]

I am.

[Dongie]

Also, with Swiss German or Bavarian , English, Irish, and Scott's,

[Levin]

Don't come to England.

I know Americans like English people, but the country is a shithole these days.

[Sevenpointfive]

i'll buy you a slice of lasagna through venmo when you get there

[msc545]

The Netherlands is wonderful. Don't go to Ireland - very nice people but the food is terrible!

[Dongie]

@Levin, how's Scott's doing?

[msc545]

@Dongie Scotland?

[Dongie]

Yes. Irving.

[Dongie]

My 1/4 Cherokee maternal Grandma was an Irving. Goes right up near WW and through Robert.

[msc545]

@Dongie Irving?

[Dongie]

That's right.

[msc545]

@Dongie Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Dongie]

The surname Irving!

[msc545]

If you have a point of some sort here, just spit it out please. I'm not here to decipher your ravings.

[exitseven]

All 4 of my grandparents came into America through the official port of entry , passed a physical examination, had sponsors that would guarantee they would not end up on welfare and had jobs procured for them already. Each took the steps required by law to become naturalized citizens and took the oath of citizenship. They were not illegal aliens.

[Sevenpointfive]

that was after the genocide of my people

[exitseven]

@Sevenpointfive isn't it time to get over it? My grandparents were exploited and were the victims of stereotypes and I have gotten over it.

[Sevenpointfive]

i don't know? if the jews can i can. but they won't, so... anti-nativeamericanite! =D

[Static_In_The_Attic]

I can agree to disagree & disagree to agree but mostly disagree with your question. As for my ancestors two of them may have been immigrants but not illegal immigrants. My ancestors didn’t sneak through the fence or the back door like today. My ancestors came in this country legally & went through the correct documenting process & were granted entry into this country.

[Sevenpointfive]

but you aren't native American : (

[goaded]

So was Elon Musk, as it happens. Even by today's standards.

[RageBabe]

Elon is mostly of English descent with a small touch of Dutch.

[goaded]

@RageBabe Still, he went to America on a student visa and didn't attend classes and started a business instead; that's illegal. It doesn't have anything to do with skin colour.

[RageBabe]

It does seem unfair.

[msc545]

@RageBabe Elon is actually a Smurf.

[RageBabe]

A genius Smurf!

[msc545]

@RageBabe Debatable...

[RageBabe]

Let’s debate. Lol

[msc545]

@RageBabe Let's include Elon.

[RageBabe]

Okay. Start the debate.

[TheorionMage]

'Illegal' by WHO's perspective? Even the native 'American's of Cahokia's Mississippi river region 'MIGRATED' across from Asia's Siberian peninsula!

IF you were BORN on U. S. soil, you ARE by definition, a 'native' American! DUH!
Regardless of your parent's heritage, YOU ARE... native American; you have NO OTHER 'homeland'. ;)

[Dongie]

Good answer.

[Sevenpointfive]

i'm surprised you made it to 73!

[Sevenpointfive]

@Dongie you gonna genocide me dong?

[Dongie]

I wouldn't do that.

[Dongie]

But I am 8.

[TheorionMage]

@Sevenpointfive Truthfully, so am I... in my pre-adolescence, I nearly drown five times. Took swimming lessons. Have been a 'bouncer', ... two military tours, ... two mini strokes, ... triple CABG heart bypass, ... been car bombed and shot once doing Executive Protection & as a uniformed Police Officer.

Clearly, the Goddess still has use for me! ;)

[TheRealPepperPotts]

True. The question is, when will the British Empire be held accountable for all it's colonizing? :D

I am definitely not Native American. My grandparents came here because they saw the writing on the wall in Germany and left prior to World War I. A prescient decision, as it turned out. I'm kind of thinking Germany might have a fit if a bunch of Americanized partial Germans suddenly flooded back. The infrastructure of Europe would basically collapse.

[Juxtapose]

That's ridiculous because throughout history land changes many times. Even with the native Americans tribes conquered each other and if they got powerful enough they would conquer parts of Europe as well.

I don't believe there is really any type of people that settled on a piece of land, lived there forever and never had anybody take their land. That just doesn't happen much.

[Juxtapose]

Originally humans came from Africa according to historians and then spread throughout the earth, pieces of land changing hands many times.

[Sevenpointfive]

i don't think the native americans made it to Europe in canoes

[Juxtapose]

@Sevenpointfive at no point in my statement did I ever mention canoes or even implied them.

[Sevenpointfive]

if you buy into that "we are all African" theory then i can't change your mind.

[Juxtapose]

@Sevenpointfive take it up with historians.

[msc545]

That is all completely beside the point and not responsive to the question.

[Juxtapose]

It is actually relevant because according to your definition, Cherokees are illegals.

[Sevenpointfive]

@Juxtapose thank you!

[msc545]

Who owned and occupied the land when the invaders took it?

[Sevenpointfive]

are you going into animal rights? i don't get where you are going with this. it was owned by the indigenous people. stop reading theories and think for yourself. when you think about those theories and understand they are all hypothetical, the answer is pretty clear.

historians are part of the problem. it's not true history.

[msc545]

How did you conclude that? Even if you are correct, things, including land, can be stolen more than once.

[Sevenpointfive]

i agree with that. empires proved that. some part of history is true.

[msc545]

@Sevenpointfive So if it is stolen once, and then someone else steals it, we have two thefts, right? There could be many thieves.

[Sevenpointfive]

i wouldn't say many thieves. the greatest capers are when no one knows who steals it.

[msc545]

@Sevenpointfive well yes, but as we agree, things can be stolen from thieves by other thieves...

[Sevenpointfive]

so the British defectors that only stole the land with the help of the British army, somehow conquered the British army? that doesn't sound accurate at all.

[msc545]

@Sevenpointfive I am not sure what you are talking about...

[Sevenpointfive]

that's how america was established.

[msc545]

@Sevenpointfive Who were the British defectors? The colonists?

[Sevenpointfive]

yes! where are you from?

[msc545]

@Sevenpointfive San Francisco

[Sevenpointfive]

that's the history they taught me. incredibly ridiculous b. s.

[Juxtapose]

Other natives & animals have occupied it.

[Sevenpointfive]

yes, yes. i watched the planet of the apes documentaries lol ;D

[Yabbut]

How can people who came here before there was an established country, or immigration laws, be illegal immigrants?

[msc545]

The natives had laws - you can tell by the way they reacted to the presence of white men. Ask General Custer.

[Yabbut]

Where are these laws documented?

[msc545]

Ask them.

[Dongie]

Custer was a long time after settlement. A hundred years after country establishment.

[Yabbut]

Ask dead people? That's what you got?

[Dongie]

He's a democrat.

[RageBabe]

I’m not from America. The native Americans are so beautiful.

[LonelyEryn]

Yes I know and I'm sorry I try to make up for it everyday

[AviatorTom]

Where did you get that idea? My ancestors legally entered the country via Ellis Island in the 1800s, where they were properly processed. They, and I, are not illegal immigrants.

[msc545]

Ok...

[Sevenpointfive]

you miss the point

[SweetDripp]

That's not true. There were no immigration laws when Europeans came to America so they weren't here illegally. They may have been unwanted, but broke no laws.

[Sevenpointfive]

imperialism was over. are you sure about that?

[SweetDripp]

@Sevenpointfive Positive

[Sevenpointfive]

did you ask the indians that?

[Radiate143]

Well, not mine because we never asked to be brought over here.

[Anonymous]

I don't think the Native Americans claimed the land the pilgrims took shelter on.

In fact, if you remember Squanto, he actively helped them survive by offering them guidance. I hear it was in exchange for assisting his tribe in tribal warfare due to the pilgrims having firearms but I can't confirm that. Either way, the natives clearly didn't see the pilgrims as a threat, which you'd think they would if they were actually invading their land.

[purplepoppy]

I think the correct term is "invader" not immigrant.

[msc545]

I think invader implies hostile intent, and in that, you are not wrong at all.

[CaptainSmartass]

I'm not 'native American' and I'm not illegal. I'm of British and Irish origin, living in Britain. My family are all indigenous people, so you can call off the Border Force...

Simples...

[SeekerOfTruth007]

The white ancestors traded for the land fair and square. It's not our fault native Americans didn't understand property laws.

[Sevenpointfive]

i get your humor. it's disgusting. i hope you live in poverty off the death of my people

[SeekerOfTruth007]

@Sevenpointfive Well, I've been medically disabled since 2006, so I guess you got your wish.

[Sevenpointfive]

that's actually the death of both of our people, so congratulations! i was just denied my disability today

[lightbulb27]

Nah they lost and our ancestors cheated and stole their land. We were born here like they were.

[Sevenpointfive]

the problem with that thought is that we invited the white man and then they killed us.

[lightbulb27]

@Sevenpointfive we made a great country that anyone can be a part of including them. if we'd left it to the natives, they'd have been wiped out long ago by someone else. Being nomads and tribes, they had no chance.

[Sevenpointfive]

you realize that there are hardly any entirely true native americans left right?

[lightbulb27]

@Sevenpointfive no, I have no idea. I know one of the "wind talkers" just passed away. I've met some people on reservations. don't know what a true Frenchman is let alone native American...
were just animals and the stronger ones and stronger systems take over. Same happened in Europe... Africa.
Whom was here before the native americans... whom did they kill to take the land? they weren't nice either...
the land is probably owned by the bears...

[Sevenpointfive]

don't ever get caught up in theories that cannot be proven. whether it was adam and eve, or some African woman alien named "eve", there are other options. i think many groups of humans were tested out by the creator. some died out and some survived but they understood that. so they tweaked the DNA. the creator let them evolve for a bit and it worked.

it's such a classice example of microbiology in my opinion. we are a petri dish of colonies fighting over resources to survive

[seeyounexttuesday]

I didn’t know that. Because I know there was no country here before Europeans came over and started one. The land was conquered. Like the Native Americans did to each other on the regular.

[seeyounexttuesday]

@Sevenpointfive tell me one thing I typed that was incorrect. I’ll wait.

[Sevenpointfive]

you think a few settlements constitutes a country? it took a while to make it to 13 states/nations before you wiped them out

[seeyounexttuesday]

@Sevenpointfive So when I said there was no country when the Europeans arrived I was correct.

[Sevenpointfive]

it was certainly not yours. and it's always been called injun country when you arrived.

even if the indians were nations themselves, you came in expecting to own this new land. i wish the indians had moved past bow and arrows but they were smart. they didn't procreate like crazy and respected the land. i can't say that it wasn't progress, but it didn't have to go that way in terms of genocide.

but i suspect you're used to getting your way. if you don't like the way someone responds to you, then shut them up permanently?

[seeyounexttuesday]

@Sevenpointfive Do you acknowledge that the native tribes routinely raided each other and conquered each other's land, right?

Or do you live in that la-la lefty fantasy of the noble savage?

[Sevenpointfive]

how do we know that? because that's a part of white history. no. i don't believe that. their territories were established long before the white man showed up. i can see them fighting over a new territory. but that territory wasn't new. it was inhabited. there isn't much of ancient USA that wasn't indian land, if any at all.

[seeyounexttuesday]

@Sevenpointfive We know that because it's historical fact. Let me know when you want to come back to reality.

[Sevenpointfive]

it might be your history. it is not my history. my descendants were from here and partially in Europe. only 2 places.

[seeyounexttuesday]

@Sevenpointfive lol you're a lunatic.

[seeyounexttuesday]

On the Western Plains, pre‐Columbian warfare—before the introduction of horses and guns—pitted tribes against one another for control of territory and its resources, as well as for captives and honor. Indian forces marched on foot to attack rival tribes who sometimes resided in palisaded village

[Sevenpointfive]

the texas indians were conquered by the spaniards. i have two bloodlines. while i can't tell you which indian i am, it is most likely comanche.

show me evidence of a palisaded village on the western plains

[seeyounexttuesday]

@Sevenpointfive um no, I proved already about how native americans fought for land.

[Sevenpointfive]

i actually gave you the only opportunity for that and you failed.

[seeyounexttuesday]

@Sevenpointfive I posted it in black and white. Sorry if you can’t read.

[Sevenpointfive]

omg. get away democrat!

[DrPepper12]

Seems kinda obvious and I would call them colonizers...

[Sevenpointfive]

occupiers and murderers

[noohair]

The Native Americans were immigrants. Humans did not evolve in North or South America.

[noohair]

So far, the only continent humans are indigenous is Africa. Everything else is immigration

[msc545]

How would you know that?

[noohair]

How can you not know this? It is called genetic science. Follow the science.

[msc545]

No you asserted it so you explain it.

[noohair]

www.sciencedaily.com/.../070509161829.htm

[msc545]

Are you having trouble understanding what that says?

[Jamie05rhs]

Yes; I'm aware. And I'm sorry. 🙂‍↕️🙏

However, two wrongs don't make a right!

[lorenzomichael]

Well let me tell you something that you don’t know, I’m 100% slapahoe.

[jshm2]

Yes. Pretty much.

[Anonymous]

Sure, but they won the war, so they they get to live here via conquest.

[Sevenpointfive]

no one told them it was a war. how do you sit down and eat with someone and then get genocided?

[Opinion Owner]

@Sevenpointfive You need to be told it's a war? Isn't that the sort of thing you tend to figure out pretty quickly?

[Sevenpointfive]

umm, the red wedding comes to mind

[Sevenpointfive]

plus, that symbolic meal was to keep the peace and sign a treaty

[Dongie]

I am 1/16th Cherokee nation.

[Caroline91]

Then you get to stay!

[msc545]

You can stay. I am sorry we took your land.

[Dargil]

According to what rulings over 250 years?

[Sevenpointfive]

yeah. so get the fuck out!

[Redstang88]

Different time, different situation

[Anonymous]

No. The white man was just another tribe.

[beefcakebradybatson]

African Americans are kidnapping victims.

[bobby_bush_eater]

We conquered them.

[Anonymous]

As if native Americans had laws

[Opinion Owner]

Natives never had laws, police, structure, or elections. It was all anarchy

[msc545]

It was not anarchy. They had laws that white people broke all the time.

[msc545]

As if they didn't. Ask General Custer about this.

[OddBeMe]

I'm 5/16 Slapahoe Tribe

[saraupstairs]

Are you leaving?