Should women who lie and ruin the lives of men with false accusations be held accountable?

[msc545]

I ask because women who make false accusations of sexual misconduct never really are punished - even those who lie in court and commit perjury. Why is this?

[purplepoppy]

It's a difficult question. Imagine your raped but the jury decides there isn't enough evidence for a conviction, would you now face prosecution yourself? Or how would you feel as you were being held down and raped if your rapists warned you that you risked prosecution if you went to the police?

I definitely think in cases where its clear she is lying then she should face a penalty but real victims shouldn't have to worry the tables could be turned. Rape isn't about sex, it's about power over the victim and this proposal just seems a rapists dream.

[msc545]

We rely on jury. Verdicts to determine the truth. But now you want special treatment for women because the jury verdict might not be good enough, correct?

[purplepoppy]

No, but we have to recognise that juries make mistakes and a not guilty verdict doesn't necessarily mean a person is innocent, just there's insufficient evidence for a conviction.

[msc545]

A not guilty verdict is assumed to mean that the person did not break the law, and it would be unfair to assume otherwise. I realize you think anyone accused should be treated as being guilty, but we do not do that even when a person is accused of murder and found not guilty. Stop asking for special treatment!

[Caroline91]

@msc545 I don't think that's the point @purplepoppy is making. I think she is saying that, just as men's lives shouldn't be ruined by just an accusation, a woman's life shouldn't be ruined without absolute proof that her accusation was a lie. We all know that juries do get it wrong. That's probably the strongest argument for doing away with capital punishment. Also, a not guilty verdict doesn't necessarily mean the accuser was lying, it could just mean there wasn't enough solid evidence to find the accused guilty. So, let's not ruin anyone's life without absolute proof. Poppy, please correct me if I'm wrong...

[msc545]

@Caroline91 So if women are entitled to that standard, then so are men, The difference is that women get it and men do not.

[Caroline91]

@msc545 And that is wrong and needs to change.

[msc545]

@Caroline91 it will not change. Nobody cares about men - often not even other men, and certainly not women.

[msc545]

And how do you propose to distinguish between what you refer to as a real victim than somebody who is lying? Is it your proposition that if a woman says she was raped or molested or whatever that is automatically the truth?

[Caroline91]

I don’t believe I said anything about “a real vuctim”. I wouldn’t presume to take it upon myself to determine who is or isn’t a real victim. And no one’s word is ever automatically the truth. The objective facts are the truth. But that can be very difficult to verify and then even facts are subject to differing interpretations. So, there is no easy answers. But no one’s life should be ruined by assumptions or false accusations. And the first order of business is to come to that agreement as to the moral and legal standard. Then we can start to determine how to make it happen.

[msc545]

@Caroline91 Well, we are not exactly there, are we? the reality is that women get a free pass on their lies, and men get trashed by those lies. Think about what you would do or feel if that were reversed and women were trashed.

[Caroline91]

@msc545 I do hope that you realize I am agreeing with you? Because it sounds as if you are trying to convince me of something as if I am taking an opposing view. I'm saying it is wrong for men to experience this. I am saying it needs to be fixed. No, we are not there yet. You are right. But we certainly need to, as a society, give this issue the full attention it needs in order to be resolved. I think the part you are perhaps bothered by is that I am also saying women need to be taken seriously and that it is unfortunate that it is so difficult to uncover the truth in most of these cases.

[Anonymous]

Absolutely if it can be proven that she's lying. Fact is that with most rape accusations it can never be proven true or false.

Women are not above lying about these things. A woman accused my husband with rape but he was into another country with me. He had turned her advances down. Of course she washed the evidence off her and cleaned her clothes but she had a massive back story with two witnesses. She treated it like her moment in the spotlight but the times and dates didn't match as we were in Spain at a family wedding with witnesses, video, pictures and date stamps in our passports.

One of her witnesses recently accused a guy of rape but she doesn't remember when exactly it happened, must be so he can't produce an alibi or account for his whereabouts.

[RavVid]

I am glad for you and your husband there was the evidence you were in another country. It is completely wrong if a woman may be vague about the date/time an alledged rape happened as with this witnesses allegation.

In an infamous case in Western Australia, a wife set it up with a friend for her to seduce her husband. The friend waited till the husband was at the the point of ejaculation before withdrawing consent. Of course he couldn't avoid taking the last couple of thrusts and spent 5 years in jail before he was given a pardon.

Very evil.

[msc545]

@RavVid In the US, women just give consent initially, then after it is over lie and say they never did. Easier, and just as effective.

[RavVid]

Oh certainly and not just in the US. And it is not even required for the woman to say I don't want sex until afterwards.

When I was younger and far less wise, a girl was pretty successful in teasing me and she put me in rut. I grabbed her and felt up all her goodies. She was quite happy with a smiling face and was even kissing me back. She was nicely wet so I thought it was time to penetrate. To my surprise whilst she was completely happy with everything so far (including fingering), she objected to penetration. Very fortunate for me that she did because... you can extrapolate the rest.

[RavVid]

Not even when they get someone killed are there repercussions. Not even a false police report.

I have mention this a few times here. A young woman ran out of a park screaming she had been raped for attention. Some young guys ran into the park and found an elderly gay couple. One escaped and the other died being kicked to an ugly death. No repercussions at all.

[Ariesman81]

Why aren't they punished? I think a couple reasons. First, the falsely accused are simply happy their name is cleared. Second, the falsely accused are simply happy the torment is over. Third, society teaches women are victims and creates cognitive dissonance within the actual victim, thus resulting in a failure to act fairly.

[Caroline91]

Yes. And nobody's life should be ruined simply by an accusation.

[msc545]

And yet that happens all the time and nobody does anything about it including our civil court system because women are special and men are not and women get the benefit of the doubt and men do not. And men get their lives around and women go on and write books and get awards for being victims. Does it surprise you that men are sick of this?

[AviatorTom]

If it can be proven the accusations were false, then YES, they should be prosecuted, and made to pay for any damages they caused.

Otherwise, we should just let it go.

It's a key part of a fair justice system that, sometimes, the guilty go free, in order to prevent (or at least reduce the probability of) an innocent person being convicted.

[Anonymous]

Yes, they should. But it's rare for a false accuser to be held accountable because it's virtually impossible to prove. It easier to prove a rape happened than to prove one didn't happen. Law enforcement knows that, so they almost never spend the time and resources to prove a rape accusation was false. Instead, the charges against the accused are just dropped for lack of evidence and that's the end of it. Thousands of false rape accusations go unprosecuted every year for that reason.

[UnwantedScorpio]

It’s cause they are composed with money greed

[msc545]

Yes - should they be punished in some way?

[UnwantedScorpio]

Maybe jail time or solitary confidedvonfidmebt

[msc545]

How about civil money penalties too?

[UnwantedScorpio]

Sure why not

[Garud]

common sense says they should be punished but dirty politics will always save the criminals.

[DrPepper12]

Men or women. Yes. They are punished when they commit crimes.

[dustybiker2]

That would be up to the judge of each individual case. Laws are there for a reason. There being held up or not is human choice at present.

[sirderpsalot123]

If there's proof. Making a false police report and perjury is already illegal. Convictions just don’t happen often because, like rape, it’s hard to prove.

[Twalli]

Because that would deter rape victims from reporting it. My sister was raked and the police never found the rapist. It doesn't make her allegation false.

[msc545]

I see. So you think that we have to give women the benefit of the doubt and ruin men's lives because it might in some fashion deter rape victims from reporting. Have I got that Right? And are you absolutely serious?

[Twalli]

I figure we hold them to the same standard. Just as a person is innocent with reasonable doubt, the accuser has to be found to have lied about being raoed beyond reasonable doubt.

[msc545]

That is a good idea and it's not unreasonable at all, although you will be criticized by people for even suggesting it

[Twalli]

I'm just seeing some rapists have a good enough attorney to create reasonable doubt. Then the girl who was raped is "punished" because the rapist wasn't convicted. That doesn't seem fair, because she was raped, but the rapist's lawyer was good. However, if it can't be proven beyond reasonable doubt that she wasn't raped, she shouldn't be punished. Reasonable doubt in a rape case doesn't mean that there wasn't rape, just that there's a possibility it wasn't rape.

[msc545]

If there is reasonable doubt, then there is a not-guilty verdict. That is the way our system works. If that upsets the putative "victim" then it does. The legal system is not going to be amended and changed because people dislike verdicts.

[Twalli]

I know, but reasonable doubt for rape accusations also need to be applied to penalties for false accusations.

[lightbulb27]

Yea but just means they never tell thw truth.

[msc545]

and?

[lightbulb27]

Bible starts out right after earth forma with woman 🤥 lying. Already law in place like… defamation.

[msc545]

Yeah, I hate to say this, but we're probably not going to rely entirely on what the Bible says. In this context. We have some more contemporary standards to deal with.

[OddBeMe]

Yes false reporting is illegal in our country. Dont saddle rape victims with this shit if police don't enforce it.

[msc545]

When is the last time you heard of police arresting a woman for making a false report? Cops don't DO that.

[OddBeMe]

Wow just copy pasted your q into Google. Am I the only one here using this?

www.google.com/url

[msc545]

Wow! I'm trying to decide if you're stupid or just careless or both. That article and that incident pertained to report made by somebody regarding a police officer. Do you suppose it's possible that police officers get treated a little differently than other people?

[OddBeMe]

It's a woman making a false report. Oh now you have specifics?

[msc545]

She tried to make a false report about a police officer and for once in their lives the police actually investigated. Gee. I wonder why they bothered when they normally do not? Next time read what it's about.

[msc545]

You are very naive if you think that the police investigate false reports other than ones directed at police officers as supposed perpetrators. I think you know damn well that we are talking about a sort of reports that wind up in visit civil courts where they do a ton of damage but they are not criminal matters. It's either very stupid or very disingenuous of you to suggest otherwise.

[OddBeMe]

Then show me some fcking link that proves your claim

[msc545]

Police enforcement is a matter of police discretion which is basically at their whim, and therefore a shitty metric.

[OddBeMe]

So go after them. Not feminism wanting rape kits just to get processed. And not forgotten in the closet

[msc545]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLKNtBTEFxc

[msc545]

Not wanting to pay to have rape kits processed. It's about money.

[OddBeMe]

Dossnt this video prove my point? Or is this a trap? Lol

[OddBeMe]

It's also de-prioritixing rape cases which makes victims less likely to bother.

[msc545]

POLICE OFFICERS had been reported. The cops responded to that- they don't respond to anything else. Is that simple enough for you?

[OddBeMe]

Didn't I show you a false reporting arrest? I can find more. You're being as outlandish in this as trumpers.

[msc545]

Yes, you did. HOWEVER - the police arrested someone for making a false police report that complained about a COP.

Do you get it now or are you too dense?

[OddBeMe]

So where are your links showing all the males in lockup under false reporting by women?

[msc545]

I'm not your research assistant. You are not entitled to a second of my time. If you want to know things, look them up yourself.

[msc545]

When are you going to apologize for citing an article that showed a woman getting in some trouble for making false claims against cops?

[grega239]

Should but usually aren't

[Kellyamy]

Yes they should be punished

[FunkyMonkee]

Absobuttfuckinglutely!!

[LazerBean]

Yes, of course.

[Miristheiss]

Of course.

[goaded]

Only if it's proved it was a lie

[msc545]

You don't have to prove it's a lie. You just have to prove it wasn't the truth. That is sufficient and should be. Like another woman on here. You want special treatment for women and there is no reason that should be extended to them.

[goaded]

To prove something isn't the truth you have to prove it was a lie, don't you? Or do you think people should be prosecuted for telling what they're absolutely convinced was the truth?

[msc545]

I think people should be prosecuted if they tell something untruthful when it was very easy to check as to whether or not it in fact was truthful.

[msc545]

I think you should also stop trying to split hairs and argue semantics with this stuff. Women don't have to do that. All they have to do is make some vague accusation and they get everything handed to them on a silver platter. As men we get nothing handed to us. It's about time that changed and I expect every man I speak to to support this.

[goaded]

I'm not splitting hairs. You should not risk going to prison for telling the truth about your rape, even if it can't be proved. It's another thing if it can be proved that you weren't raped or that it can't have been that man.

[msc545]

You should also not risk prison or risk having a reputation ruined just because some woman is angry at you. This has a lot to do with a lot of men avoiding women completely these days. The vicious gossip is bad enough but when the legal system responds as if you actually had done something terrible with absolutely no evidence, that is a disaster.