In America for instance the same people that want Government to bring the Catholic Church to heel over what confidential information may be said in the Confession box are the same ones who want their Internet history protected by the 4th ammendment.
Okay so, I believe ‘persecute’.
So let’s say you have ‘The Father’ witness a man’s confession of the murder of his wife, since that is a breaking one of the Ten Commandments, “Not Kill” then ‘The Father’ is in his right to confess to the proper authorities AKA law enforcement.
If it is something light like ‘indulging in the occasional wine’ or ‘looking at a raunchy video’ then obviously that is between the Catholic and ‘The Father’.
Want to add, I’m not against Catholicism or any / whichever religion you subscribe to. I’m simply saying that if the confession is to a crime then the authorities should know and if it isn’t a crime then it should remain private.
Why would someone confess to a crime knowing the priest will go to the police? They wouldn't. They might confess to a priests probably if they are looking forgiveness and are remorseful and want to turn them selves in and just need talked into it.
@gwendoline Well that is why I don’t believe in protection in a man / woman’s confession to ‘The Father’ when it is a criminal matter. If there was a law on the books that confessions can’t be brought to law enforcement then a lot of people would get off the hook believing this to be a loophole to get it off their chests.
How would it be brought to a court if no one will Confess to a crime?
I've read the bible. I have never read about a "seal" of the confession.
So, if a guy says I murdered some guy, I confess, I see nothing in scripture binding someone from hiding that from authorities.
Is the government routinely after priests to tell what Joe and Mary confessed to? The infidelities the gossiping? They want all the priests to spill the beans on the church members?
And the Apostles like Peter who set up the church and the apostles who wrote the Gospel?
Reas the bible again.
1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
That has nothing to do with the wording of this question asks.
The GOVERNMENT going after the info discussed.
As if it is attorney client privilege.
There is nothing in scripture about that government finding out info.
Proverbs 11:13 states that "a gossip betrays a confidence, but a trustworthy person keeps a secret." Proverbs 12:23 adds that "the prudent keep their knowledge to themselves, but a fool's heart blurts out folly."
Gossip?
So if the person committed a crime and the government were investigating a crime and needed info... that is not gossip.
It's still gossip.
First of all any person who would believe in any sense you could keep internet conversations and history protected are fucking morons to begin with. Hackers alone are rolling on the floor laughing at this one.
I think that the seal is to be respected but there should be special circumstances granted for confessions that involve hurting or actively damaging another person.
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Your options are not realistic.
In Utah, clergy members, including those from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, are exempt from reporting child abuse if they learn about it in a confessional setting due to clergy-penitent privilege. This privilege means that neither the clergy member nor the person who confessed can be forced to testify in court about the contents of the conversation.
This is criminal, but when it comes to religion, you can make up any old shit you want and get away with it, while you tell the world "we care about the children".
But if the confession isn't confidential then would they confess. In the Catholic Church you aren't forgiven unless you are repentant and complete your penance, penance in this case would be going to the police. I know Mormons in utah use this to cover up child abuse and control Mormon church members.
Yes,
Psychologically a person who is Capable of walking into a holy Place, and confessing with force. Has some good remaining in them and is worth saving and redeeming.
Government needs to Respect the Seal of Confessional.
However, if Government wants to Force and know what's behind the Seal and what Confessions a person made. Then the Government should lose the Right to Implicate of Prosecute that person for their Sins.. and the Right to such Prosecution should be given to the Church.
Interesting topic. One I'm dealing with currently.
On the one hand, a safe place to divulge sins can cleanse a person's soul, but without repentance means little and requires persecution.
Not to derail your topic, but current doctor/client privilege laws now extend to 12 year olds. Should a parent of a 12 year old not be privy to the information being discussed and offered by a doctor to a minor child? Especially if that parent will/can be held responsible for that child's choices and actions?
It comes down to 3 main things. Responsibility, Authority and Accountability. The way it should work is those who are responsible should have authority to hold people accountable. The way it currently works is those with authority and separated from the responsibility are protected from accountability.
if the government will not respect the Seal of the Confessional why did our forefathers create America in the first place?
... to escape the catholics in Europe?
Hahha good one! America was created by fucking European separatists by stealing land from the natives. George motherfucking Washington was a separatist from the crown of England. America was founded by illegal settlers and now they dare to deport undocumented immigrants as aliens? The real aliens are everyone calling themselves citizens of America.
@QuestionObsession didn't they deport the British?
Of course they did, same as every other settler colony of Britain did - New Zealand, Australia, Canada... all the island colonies that were stolen, occupied and populated by settlers.
@QuestionObsession Then I guess that reparations be given to the Native Americans. instead of slaves. Although the Native Americans were not native to the Americas when they crossed the land bridge from what is called Russia to the Americas. The Native People of the Americas were here first and as the mantra says STOLEN LAND should be given reparations before families of black slaves
I agree. Native Americans first, then the Blacks
@QuestionObsession No, to the victor go the spoils.
Victor is a fucking racist colonial pig
It's a good question but no, I do not think that government should be bound by the rules of religious practice. The government should be neutral on all religious beliefs and not recognize them in making law other than to afford their followers the right to follow those practices and beliefs if they so choose. But the government itself should not be bound by any particular religious belief of practice.
This is not persecution, it is religious neutrality.
The government shouldn't allow special protection of things said in Catholic "Confession" any more than it should allow Muslims to get off the hook for murder because they believe gay people should be murdered.
In America the concept I described above is often referred to as "separation of church and state" and is one of the foundations of our US Constitution. Religious practice and belief are respected by government, but laws are not based on any specific religions.
Nor do laws give any special protection to any specific religions. They are all bound by the same laws.
@gwendoline thank you for the invite. The USA is about religious freedom. But I don't understand the Catholic stuff cause I was raised Protestant.
If you believe all this bullshit get ready to be the next target for religious persecution whatever it might be because someone will always make up lies even if you are agnostic because they will turn that into a religion to use it to prosecute you. Next the anti-religious will prosecute you for not having a religion. CATCH 22
From personal experience, if you know someone is being molested or raped, and you don't report it, you're a piece of shit that deserves to face charges and deal with that earned persecution.
Do you think a person who was raped or was raping would confess to a priest if they knew they'd get arrested?
The confidentiality may be the only opportunity for them to be convinced to seek help or to turn themselves in. That happened at the church where I grew up, a girl confided in her priest in confession that she was being abused sexually her mother's boyfriend and her priest helped convince her after a paticularly bad incident even though she was terrified to come forward to the police, her rapist got 10 years and was out in 5.
Yeah if they knew the priest couldn't tell without being excommunicated for life. They have many times in the past, and I've never heard of one guy turning himself in. And if what you said actually happened, good, but it'd be the only time I heard it. I was told to practice forgiveness.
5 years for ruining someone's life. Of fucking course.
There is something called religious liberty. In addition, you cannot compell speech. I respect the Catholic's decision of confidentiality.
But they're gonna persecute everyone, Catholics included
Seems likely
Relax bub. There's no war in Christianity or confession. You're thinking of the kids in Gaza & everywhere who are ignored by your malevolent selfish invisible skydaddy!
A while back the witches and sorcerers who confessed had been burnt to death.
Don't trust the Catholic Church.
Presently, the new witches and sorcerers are given different names and labels.
Don't trust the Government.
Religious confession is not a legal defence. THAT shit does not get you off the hook or clemency so admitting crimes to pastors should give you zero protections.
So why would you confess crimes to a priest or seek counselling if you know they will rather you out straight away? You wouldn't.
Lol that's the point they aren't going to at all
It's a Christian thing you wouldn't understand
The Goverment is Literally Sex Trafficking minors but oh no, we can't have the Seal of Confession. re-state//background_color_rgba (0, 0, 0, 0), font_color_rgb (77, 77, 77), justifyLeft
Licensed therapists are mandatory reporters. I see no difference between the client-therapist relationship and the confessor-priest relationship.
you can't break the seal. but you shouldn't be allowed to confess to murder to a priest that is now an accomplice after the fact.
It depends. If the guy is confessing to murder or rape, sorry that shouldn't be secret. Anything else the seal should be respected.
Why would they confess knowing the priest will call the cops? The priest is the only person that can talk them into stopping and going to the authorities as part of their pennance.
Because legally, and trust me on this, if the priest fails to report things like that it's obstruction of justice.. And in my opinion said priest should suffer the same consequences as the offender if he willfully kept rape, murder and child molesters secret.
Let me put it a different way, I'd I found out that my local catholic priest knew my daughter was getting raped by some guy via confession, and he didn't report it, I would end the life of the priest as well as the man who chose to hurt my daughter. And yes I'm aware I would get prison time or the death penalty for it. You must understand, I'd kill for, and die for my children. I am that kind of parent.
And no you're not, nor is the priest morally superior to me in any way for choosing to hide such crimes it makes the priest, and people who support keeping that kind of secrets morally evil in my opinion.
There are more criminals hiding in the church than out of it. The ones who listen to confessions are the sick fucks who enjoy it.
No sacrament or any clergical bullshit should be immune to law.
Unless a confession is written down or video recorded it should be inadmissible in a court of law.
We shouldn't be persecuted by the Catholics
But respect there freedom of religion
If they commit a crime and confess to it , it should be like a doctor they should report the crime to the police other than that it should be secret
Why would you confess to committing a crime if they would go to the police? What if a crime had been committed on you and you couldn't tell anyone because they'd go to the police?
Also what counts as a crime? Speaking out against the government? Speeding?
Rape , murder , theft
But would you confess knowing that the confession isn't confidential? Why not cut out the middle man and confession to police,?
True , I mean some criminals are stupid tho
They are mandatory reporters. Short of child sex offending, I think it is best left alone.
So you’re okay with people getting away with molesting children, killing people. Etc? Good to know.
Are people who molest children going to confess if they think they priest will turn them in? Or will they continue doing what they are doing without anyone telling them they are doing evil?
If people keep molesting children and going back to the priest to “ask for forgiveness” then the priest is just enabling the behavior and should be arrested along with the child molester for not telling anyone. I thought we wanted to protect the kids.
And no one needs a priest to tell them that molesting children is evil.
To be forgiven in confession you actually have to be repentant and do pennance, if not the priest refuses you forgiveness. It's not like born again Christians who believe no matter what they did or do from the time they are baptised again is forgiven.
And if the person doesn’t give a fuck and decides to go out and do more heinous things?
And if priests aren't bound by the seal of confession will they confession to a priest?
And if someone keeps molesting kids after the confession then it’s the fault of the priest and the religion.
If someone is molesting kids they aren't going to come to confession if the priest will report it, just like P Diddy didn't go to the police
If the priest gives an anonymous tip to the police there’s a good chance that they could get the person. There are ways to give information out about crimes that people have committed. All you’re doing is making excuses. Imagine being so blinded by religion that you’re okay with child molesters, rapists, and murderers walking free so they can go after other people.
Without elaboration, it depends on the crime.
Respect the seal of confessions
I'm an ignorant atheist so I don't know
So, what's gonna happen if they don't?
Only in Europe
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