Is France racist for opposed multiculturalism, as some people claim?

[Julie4]

I saw this question yesterday

Why are the French against multiculturalism? ↗

And I've decided to answer it here to try and explain it as best I can.

It's not a question of racism, because it doesn't matter if a person is black, Asian, Muslim, Jewish, etc. What's important is assimilation into French culture.

Indeed, France is an old country, with its own culture and customs, but at the same time it has inherited the universal ideals of the French Revolution. So it's not a racialist vision of French identity that exists, but rather an assimilationist one.

The French Republic is based on a universalist model inherited from the Enlightenment and the Revolution. This model is based on the principle that all citizens are equal and undifferentiated before the law, without distinction of origin, religion or culture. The State therefore refuses to recognize "communities" within the nation.

> Example: in France, there is no official census by ethnic origin or religion, unlike in some countries.

And In France, multiculturalism is often associated with communautarism, negatively perceived as the coexistence of closed cultural groups, living according to their own rules. This is seen as a danger to national unity.

Assimilation, on the other hand, is the abandonment of a part of oneself, of one's roots, to adopt the customs, the way of life, the history, the way of thinking of one's new homeland. It is an imperious hierarchy of cultural norms, and appartenance. A duty of discretion for religious practices.

Updates

1 y

You're a racist, you despise all societies that don't resemble yours, only your model and your conception of freedom is right. You despise anything that doesn't fit it. Deep down, Anglo-Saxon society covers itself in moral self-righteousness, it's humanity's elite, but deep down, for me, it's a ceiling all in black, but edged in gold.

[Zack-Bann]

I completely agree with your take on it


As someone who himself migrated to france I’ve seen this first hand.


Now I have a couple of small advantages to the average migrant, mainly having gone to a french catholic school back in my country, I learned the language and have a lot of shared cultures already


But it does matter here: I dress and talk like the French do and most can’t really tell the difference
Sure they know I’m not from there originally but it takes 2 seconds to warm up to me


But I met people really hooked on their cultures of origin and they experienced racism every day
My ex girlfriend who came from my country and actually studied french literature couldn’t shake her origins and it played against her


The thing is: I’m proud of my heritage and consider it one of the richest and best in human history


But I also believe in “time and place” and will give each situation exactly what that situation requires.
It’s not a lie or deceit, but people are complicated enough to have more than one “face” and have them all be real

[Julie4]

My post was not intended to deny racism in France, because unfortunately racism does exist in France.

And my post doesn't even aim to say that the French system is better than the Anglo-Saxon one. I'm just trying to make the English and Americans understand the difference in mentality between France and them, and that it's not because of racism.

[Zack-Bann]

Well you know depending on what side of the political spectrum they are even the Anglo-saxons might deny racism

And certain French swear they live in a fascist society

I think truth is in the middle

Racism does exist and always will

But it’s no longer legalized. You can’t deny someone services or opportunity based on race alone.

And the fact that you have to give everyone a chance means people have an option to either embrace their similarities or highlight their differences.

So while I may not share the ethnicity of a native french person, it’s very hard to find things that are so marginally different between us that we absolutely can’t get along

[Kaneki05]

Of course France is racist schools wouldn't allow girls to wear hijabs. The irony that I have to defend this since I hate religion but ya know you should still be able to wear something culturally relevant to you.

French is stuck up hypocrites, they proclaimed one of the reasons hijabs are bad is because it's sexist clothing. And guess what? I agree. But ya know what's also sexist? Telling women they can't wear them.

And yes this topic very much is about Muslims as ya know not many non-muslims wear hijabs so it is very much directed at one culture of people. The definition of racism.

So yes by conclusion French be racist, and sexist by... Trying not to be... Also ya know a romance lango they have... Is weird applying gender to words is sexist or actually too dumb to be so? I can't tell.

All I know is French have a lot of old timey views, plenty conservative and.. Well conservatives aren't know for progressive views. Such as being against racism, sexism etc.

[Julie4]

Then you obviously don't know how France has treated Catholics. Would you say that the French are racist towards Catholics?

[Kaneki05]

Yes if it is the case they treat another group of people just as badly yes... Doing that twice don't make you something else... If anything that just proves even more so you are that.

Might as well of said to me if your racist towards Asians would you also be racist if your racist towards Africans... Turns out yes lol

[Julie4]

Being Muslim or Catholic is not an ethnicity

[Kaneki05]

Umm yes they are. Ethnicity definition specifically includes culture, religion, ancestry etc...
If Muslims don't have that and catholics don't have that? Then I don't know what does.
And I guess Hitler was not racist at all...

[Julie4]

Hitler made a hierarchy of races. France does not.

What happens with Muslims or Christians has absolutely nothing to do with it.

I have no more rights than a Muslim or a Christian and we don't even have an ethnic census in France, what about in the UK or the USA?

The ban on all religious signs, and I do mean religious, is due to French secularism.

[Kaneki05]

I see so France... Has no churches and no religion at all?
Yeah somehow I find that hard to believe?
And all religious signs... How does one define a religious sign?
Because I could easily aruge my upside down cross is one... Or say my tie is? Is it all the sudden ban worthy?

Again it's ironic I have to defend this but isn't first sign of dictatorship banning religious freedom? Whether by making only one religion allowed or none?

[Julie4]

You're really mixing things up. First of all, I'd like to point out that your example of Hitler is wrong because being Jewish is not only a religion but can also be considered as an ethnic group, hence Hitler's hierarchy of races, etc.

There are churches in France, just as there are mosques. France has a long history of Christianity, even being called the eldest daughter of the Church. But there's been a law on secularism for over 100 years now, and we haven't ended up with a dictatorship.

People can wear a headscarf or a yarmulke in the street, for example, or a cross. But there are limits

[Kaneki05]

No Hitler would kill me, if I decided to become one. I highly doubt he would care about me needing to be of Jewish decent...

Limits because they don't like freedom? Which is dictatorship in most people's minds.

The real problem here is you are just saying stuff that we would consider as bad, then saying it's not bad here though.
But we aren't going to agree.. Because we'll we do see this as bad so that's that.

[Julie4]

As Burke said, "For individuals, the effect of liberty is to enable them to do what they please; let us therefore see what it will please them to do before we risk congratulations which soon may have to be changed into condolences. "

[Kaneki05]

Dunno what that means. But it's wild your culture don't see oppression towards freedom, and religious freedom is bad.

In a way I see some appeal but it's a doubled edged sword, and even though I am rarely empathic I do think how it would be to be such religious person in such country.

[Julie4]

Don't worry, religious people in France have the right to pray, and they're not locked up in camps. That's all there is to understand.

[Kaneki05]

That's... Not the problem and the fact you think that's the only thing that matters says a lot...

[Julie4]

I have no more rights than a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, etc. So yes, that's all that matters. Your unlimited freedom is a danger

[Kaneki05]

Nothing to do with ultimate freedom. Just the freedom we lucky have in our country unlike yours I guess.
No such thing as ultimate freedom because that would be chaos, never declared for that.

[Kaneki05]

And no they have less rights than you if they have restrictions based on what they can wear if it's personal to them...
Where as I am sure you can wear something personal but not Religious and it's fine.

[Kaneki05]

Let me ask you, would I not be able to wear an upsidedown cross at school? Or a hoodie with a demon on it?
How far does your censorship go exactly? Because these will better get to the point.

[Julie4]

religious people have the same rights as any other citizen, they can wear their religious symbols in the street, some even pray in the street, etc., but you seem to be saying that there should be no prohibitions, no limits.

It's funny how Anglo-Saxons think they're so superior and look down on other societies. Anything that doesn't resemble your conception is bound to be wrong.

[Kaneki05]

I don't know what Anglo saxon is nvm looking down on another society for not been so...
Also my point started off defending Muslims... While I am not sure what Anglo saxon is I don't think Muslims are that.
But nice try I guess.

And yes there shouldn't be on wearing and expressing it freely, because well why would it be wrong?
It makes no rational to be wrong.

[Kaneki05]

I see so Anglo Saxon was referring to my race and origin. I wonder whom the racist one here is?
People always show their true self's when not meaning too.

[Julie4]

You're a racist, you despise all societies that don't resemble yours, only your model and your conception of freedom is right. You despise anything that doesn't fit it.

Deep down, Anglo-Saxon society covers itself in moral self-righteousness, it's humanity's elite, but deep down, for me, it's a ceiling all in black, but edged in gold.

[Kaneki05]

Yup the one is harping on about my race is the one calling me the racist.
How ironic.

[Julie4]

I respond to your racism

[Kaneki05]

No you didn't as I didn't make any...
And even if I did wouldn't that just make you hypocrite to respond back with your own?

The logic is lost.

[Julie4]

No, you have to answer meanness with meanness.

[Kaneki05]

When was I mean?
All I've said has been facts due to the laws of your said country which by the way you are actively backing up therefore confirming what I said to be true.

While trying to tell you many across the world don't see them as good.
Not just my race, but many all across the worlds because again Muslims and Jews or whatever else aren't Anglo-Saxons well some might be. But I am clearly speaking from a world view on freedom, not just my own. It's widely believed that yours laws are racist, sexist and against religious freedom.

But hey see what you want to see as far as I am concerned you only proved my point not hurt it, so I don't see much more point in debating any longer. And even you know this to be true somewhere otherwise you'd never thought to ask this question...
But ya know don't mind me and logic.

[Julie4]

No, the world doesn't think like you, look at what's happening in India, China etc. Stop talking about your ideals as a world standard, it's absolutely ridiculous.

Is it? In France, every religious person has the right to wear their religious symbol in the street, they have the right to say their prayers, and we even have plenty of mosques, churches, etc., in France. The only thing that's forbidden is when a place is attached to something state-run, like a school, public services, etc., because the state is secular.

[Kaneki05]

India literally loves religious freedom and would highly dislike how French treat it and hindisum is one of the most peaceful religions.
China is literally against it all and is a dictatorship everyone hates, and very much not peaceful and would side with French...

You've just backed up my point thank you.
And yes so it is restricted for students to be religious... Such good freedom that is.

[Julie4]

They are delivered to be religious outside the school. And again, this is not a ban reserved for Muslims.

Have you ever been to India? Because you obviously don't know the reality of this country.

[Kaneki05]

China is another country thats racist... Funnily enough. And ya know has a long list aganist human rights.

[Kaneki05]

I have several friends from India and watch their news.
Indians love religion and my best friend hates it there cause they do lmao.
I very much know about this country.

Even while making statement about vs Pakistan terriosts they praised God and said we do not want war...

What are you on about?

[Kaneki05]

It's crazy your even arguing the though India is not religious my brain hurts.

[Kaneki05]

Thought*

[Kaneki05]

And again that's wrong. Nothing is evil or wrong about wearing a cross in school anyone with common sense knows this, same for hijabs or whatever.

[Julie4]

Yes yes I believe you 😂 what do you think then of the nationalist politics of the Indians , especially the Citizenship Act (2019)

The Citizenship Amendment Act (CAA) allows certain non-Muslim refugees from neighboring countries to obtain Indian nationality.

It explicitly excludes Muslims, which was seen as religious discrimination unheard of in Indian law. "

This is just one example among many.

[Kaneki05]

Clearly you know nothing of Hindisum history with Muslims... And Pakistan... You would know the answer to that act already and it has nothing to do with racism.
It's to do with terrorists.
There is a major difference between protecting country from terrorists and being racist. You do know they make this point all the time that they have no problem with muslims who aren't terroists?

[Julie4]

Yes yes you are naive, they put in power a Hindu nationalist 😂 who is even accused of having allowed the violence against Muslims in 2002.

[Kaneki05]

If it was up to Indians everyone would live in peace worshipping their god, as that's what hinduisim is all about ya know?

[Julie4]

That's not my problem, they voted for a Hindu nationalist, who allowed violent actions against Muslims.

And his party openly passed the 2019 law that explicitly excludes Muslims

[Kaneki05]

Nah only Naive one here is you for thinking that france and india are even comparable tbh dumb point and now decending into further dumb points since you know nothing of Hindu, Indians nor the struggle with Islam they've had from their side by the way not Indian.

[Julie4]

I know the facts bother you. But do you realize that they explicitly voted for a law that discriminates against a specific community? That they elected a nationalist. Who legitimized violence against Muslims in 2002.

So your argument is bogus, because not all Muslims are terrorists, and yet they have suffered this violence and this discriminatory law against them.

[Kaneki05]

by the way look up how many Muslims live in India and it's popluation size compared to other countries, while also realizing all of them going to schools are allowed to wear Hijabs no problem... Totally like france right? Totally,...

[Kaneki05]

The muslims India are fighting a literal terrorists lmao

[Julie4]

We haven't passed any laws against them, and the violence committed against them hasn't been legitimized by our leaders. In India that's what happened and we didn't put a nationalist in power.

And? France has one of the largest Muslim communities in Europe, Einstein.

[Kaneki05]

Oh didn't know France and India are both Europen... So that large number really surpasses India huh?

[Kaneki05]

Yeah no law at all not like hijabs in schools can't be wron, and again India those muslims were terroists...

[Kaneki05]

Anyway when you gonna give me a rational common sense reason one can't wear a cross or Hijab? Rather than Bs around.

[Julie4]

Einstein in France this law does not specifically target Muslims, the Indian law voted in 2019 is the case. Repeating a lie 50 times doesn't make it true. During the 2002 attacks, it wasn't just terrorists who were targeted, but also Muslims who were good citizens.

They voted for a nationalist, but I see that doesn't bother you, that you justify them even by telling lies.

For the population it's not the same thing, because you have to take into account history etc. and India is much bigger than France.

In France we even have a higher percentage of Muslims than England. Does this mean that England is racist because it has fewer Muslims than India, for example?

[Kaneki05]

Do you not understand collateral damage? And when did I say having less is bad? My point was India has a lot so obviously they are civil with non-terroists... and they have no law against hijabs like you. Funnily enough.

[Julie4]

No, they just have laws that specifically discriminate against them, and they have put as prime minister a man who is a nationalist and who has legitimized violence against Muslims, it's ideal 😂

[Kaneki05]

You seriously can't grasp this idea they're fighting terroists can you?

[Kaneki05]

Also still dodging my point 50 comments later... What common sense reason is there to stop someone wearing a Cross or Hijab?

[Julie4]

It's a lie, they also attacked honest Muslim citizens and I don't see how the 2019 law fights terrorism.

And I don't see how voting for a nationalist is a good thing either.

[Kaneki05]

It's not a lie and back then Pakistan was literally hiding a certain someone and 9/11 just happened... I wonder why they were so concerned to elect someone against that... what a mystery nobody knows must've been just racism...
And stopping more unknown potentional threats into your Country? Woah never...

[Julie4]

Modi is a moderate, but he has justified violence against honest Indian Muslim citizens, they elected him a nationalist. And vote a discriminatory law and you can not justify it

[Kaneki05]

Just did wanna read my point again? Perfectly justified how you don't get it I don't know but then again you haven't made one good point this whole time, and still dodge thy question because you know there is no common sense behind French action. India's actions have plenty. a long drawn history of it.

[Julie4]

No, you haven't explained to me how the 2019 law fights terrorism, apart from considering all Muslims as terrorists. Which seems to be your case. In addition Modi has made infamous remarks against Muslims.

[Kaneki05]

"And stopping more unknown potentional threats into your Country? Woah never..."

[Julie4]

In addition, honest citizens have been attacked in India because they are Muslims. And you justify this, you must be ashamed

[Julie4]

So you consider all Muslims to be terrorists?

[Kaneki05]

You have a really hard time understanding Terrorists exist and they are literal neighbours and within India...

[Kaneki05]

Nope, never said that try again.

[Kaneki05]

Here's a simple way of looking at your at war with Russia and your Ukraine... are all Russians bad? No of course not but the ones attacking you can't just be let in and even those not aren't that trustworthy as they could be spies or worse? This is how war is. Nothing to do with all of them are bad...

[Julie4]

If that's what you're saying to justify the 2019 law discriminating against Muslims

[Julie4]

And I see that you have not a single thought for the Muslims who have been victims of Hindu nationalists in India itself.

Oh so either they are potential traitors or terrorists

[Kaneki05]

My point makes logical sense you aren't going to allow or trust the people who are at war with you no? And what do you think Pakistan and India have been at for a long time? It's literally just protecting one's own country. It's like saying Americans are racist for not wanting the cartel in their country, all all mexicans cartel? No but some are and you do your best to not let those ones in.

[Kaneki05]

I see you just don't grasp war and collateral damage hard concepts...

[Kaneki05]

Anyway this is so besides the point, I give up now. Though all you did was confirm my view not change it so you didn't achieve much here in thy debate.

[Kaneki05]

Also thanks for the debate by the way I did enjoy it so thank you. Even tho we didn't get anywhere lol

[Julie4]

The law voted in 2019 does not only concern Pakistan. And I'm not sure that attacking Muslims in India is justifiable as collateral damage.

Haha yeah it was a good debate. But it didn't change any of our positions.

[4ngelic]

je pense pas du tout que la france est contre le multiculturalisme. genre 50% de paris sont d'origine arabe ou africaine, et la france en gen c'est 30%. une partie importante des français blancs sont pas de souche non plus (descendants d'immigrés portugais, italiens, juifs, allemands etc du 19ème & 20ème siècle principalement). Si la france était contre, il y aurait beaucoup beaucoup plus de blancs, et de français de souche.

ce que la france n'aime pas c'est les valeurs et modes de vie différents qui clashent avec les valeurs républicaines. par ex le niqab et le burkini. mais n'a aucun problème avec la construction de mosqués, les restaurants étrangers, les centres et organisations culturelles étrangères, le hijab, etc

[purplepoppy]

Culture is ancestoral baggage, a shared history of successes, failures, glories and shame that unites people making them feel they belong. Someone coming to France doesn't have that link to French culture you do. You can insist they eat frogs legs in a baguette washed down with wine but they'll never feel French.

You can't expect people to abandon beliefs and traditions installed in them by their parents, passed down the generations and reinforced by society and their schools overnight. Yes they should respect French culture and laws but it can take a couple of generations before they abandon the old ways

[Bricealan]

@julie4 Multiculturalism is an ideal that does not work in reality, because as you describe, the failure of the various races to assimilate into the culture they have moved into. I would love to live in Paris... and have visited there, and love the people and culture.

WERE I TO MOVE THERE, YOU CAN BET THE FARM, I WOULD LEARN TO SPEAK FRENCH, LEARN AS MUCH ABOUT FRENCH HISTORY, CUSTOMS, NORMS ETC. I WOULD NEVER BE THE ROUND PEG IN A SQUARE HOLE... I WOULD ASSIMILATE INTO THE FRENCH CULTURE... THE SAME AS I WOULD IN ANY COUNTRY

[Julie4]

My post was not intended to deny racism in France, because unfortunately racism does exist in France.

And my post doesn't even aim to say that the French system is better than the Anglo-Saxon one. I'm just trying to make the English and Americans understand the difference in mentality between France and them, and that it's not because of racism.

[Bricealan]

@julie4 We agree

[RavVid]

I remember you discussing this before. I think France is entitled to insist on assimilation policies. There isn't an entitlement to migrate to another country and migrants must expect conditions to get permission to migrate and in time obtain citizenship.

Racist is an over broadly used term. Possibly because culturalism - which would be more accurate - doesn't have the same the same pugnacity as racism.

In my country Muslims want to impose Sharia law and it is simply offensive to demand that a majority should change to accommodate a minority. We should not have had to foil a number of terrorism attempts.

[Miristheiss]

No.

Why don't China and Japan go import 20 million foreigbers who do not want to assimilate and instead be an invasive species trying to establish their foreign religions, dress and value system on the host country?

Why the obsession of doing this in western countries?

[KostasKouvalis]

You pretty much answered your own question. Even if they are, so freakin' what? But firstly "French" isn't a race and also "French" isn't just an ethnicity/nationality, it's a mindset and way of life. They even have anti-discrimination laws and don't ask for race on census. The only people they really don't seem to like are Muslims, because they don't assimilate.

[Hussar]

Civic nationalism is folly. Assimilation into a culture can only ever be achieved by a narrow group of similar people. A nation is built on its ethnicity first and foremost, not a set of shared principles. That being said, a binational or multinational/multiethnic state is possible but comes with a whole host of its own challenges. France, with all due respect to its nation and people, pursues a shallow civic nationalism that is simply unsustainable.

[Shiprex]

I like this idea but think in practice is difficult to sustain. Group dynamics in large scale circumstances can form organically and conflict with others. The melting pot needs to be kept boiling

[FreyaRed]

Franc is first candidate for race war in EU. Disgust is the first impression of a foreigner from a white country in Paris.

[MrChinaski]

I enjoyed reading your post, but there is far too much content to try and respond to. Are there one or two questions you want a view on the most?

[Anonymous]

Well France isn’t a Muslim country. If they don’t like the rules or the laws there then they should move to a different country and stop whining

[AngryCarl2]

Same thing in England. Nobody minds people coming to England from other countries, so long as they don't turn it into a shithole. That's our job!

[Dongie]

There's nothing wrong with preserving a nations traditions and goals. I agree that when in Rome do as the Romans.

[Godihateyou]

Embrace racism or the rape and death of white women. Ther is no way around this. Other cultures are evil animals.

[DCVsMarvel2]

I'm guessing an American REPUBLICAN asked that?

Nvm those shitheads, they just like to cause problems, just to get a rise out of people

[Fromdusktilldawn]

if you've ever been in Paris or Marseille, you'd see that it IS a danger

[beefcakebradybatson]

From what I've heard, France can be pretty racist.

[SmokinAces2000]

I’m sure like many other European countries they are.

[Aldan1609]

Lol they might not like hajibs but it's even worse here

[Anonymous]

No, culture and race and two separate concepts.

[biraileeşkadını]

America is more racist.

[jahaims]

A lot of Europe is racist

[Anonymous]

Yes, they are a racist country.

[Opinion Owner]

Anglo-Saxon countries are usually even more racist than France.