Indiscriminate shooting of Jews in Sydney is no different to indiscriminate shooting Palestinians in Gaza?

[Anonymous]

Let me begin by saying both are totally wrong. Bombing and shooting of innocent civilians in Gaza, of course there will be repercussions.

Surprising Jews and Israelis didn't rein in Netanyahu instead of allowing him and USA to perpetrate their attack on innocent women and children.

I am completely independent of the situation in Gaza. Just an independent observer.


I just see President Herzog on the television

I'm reminded of seeing him signing a bomb destined for Gaza civilians.

Updates

5 mo

I see Netanyahu calling Australian PM part of the cause of the king on Sydney Because Australia called for Palestinian state Netanyahu should realize his actions killing 70k Gazans is the source of hatred towards Israel. Maybe we'll discover the motive of these guys in Sydney

[Lliam]

One is genocide, the other was an isolated terrorist attack.

Who know who the shooter was for sure. Israel will naturally claim that it was a Muslim or even Hamas. But Israel lies perpetually. It might have even been an Israeli operative sent perpetrate a false flag attack in order to stir anti-Muslim backlash. It wouldn't be the first time.
And keep in mind that it was a Muslim who stopped the shooter.

It is now a proven fact that the IDF killed most of those who died on Oct 7.

Either way, the attack cannot be compared to bombing entire apartment blocks, hospitals and schools; blowing up families in cars; soldiers gunning down women and children; murdering thousands of infants; firebombing crowded refugee camps; cutting off all water and power; starving thousands to death; sadistically torturing people in prisons who haven't even been tried in court; harvesting organs from prisoners; killing close to a million people and maiming many more in a two year period, and bragging about it.

Israel is responsible for stirring antisemitism. Yet is claims to be the victim.

[Asker]

Thank you Liam
Finally a moderate voice 👍
You captured it with sadistic 👍

[Lliam]

You're welcome. I'm glad you understand.

[Asker]

By the way, what evidence is there that Israel was behind October 7?

[Lliam]

Eye witnesses. Statements from Israeli officials. Photos of hundreds of burned out parked cars at the festival that Hamas didn't have the capability of doing. The Sampson directive.

[RavVid]

I think there is a considerable difference.

Israeli's and Palestinian's in Israel and Palestine have skin in the game. It is best to view the situation as a frozen war that periodically has outbreaks.

Australian Jews are not Israeli's nor are Australian Palestinians Palestinians.

A large proportion of Jewish people are from families that came here after WW2. One of those killed in Sydney was a survivor of a Nazi death camp.

You are drawing a very false moral equivalence between the Jihadist terror attack in Sydney and the acts of war between Israel and Palestine.

[Asker]

A measured response
Appreciated
Moral is stretch to include at this stage in history

I will reply further later

[Asker]

Okay let's start by saying what happened in Sydney was murder. Pure and simple.

Similarly what happened in Gaza over 2 years since October 2023 was also murder, dressed up as respectable "war" because of the violence is Hamas. But really it was just blood thirsty by Israel. And they were protected by their military. What did they achieve? The destruction of Gaza. Was that morally correct? Definitely not.

Morally wrong. Just like in Sydney.

So yes there is a moral equivalence.

Let me clarify. When Israel dropped bombs on Gaza hospital, justifying it because there was a terrorist inside, is that acceptable? I don't believe so.

[RavVid]

Thanks for the measured response comment earlier - I appreciated that, because it means we can have reasoned discourse instead of polemics. Quite probably reach no joint conclusion but still exchange views.

The whole concept of a moral/ethical/humane war is laughable except in that it has an important carve out of not directly targeting civilians which was done in practice in WW2 spectacularly and to a degree in WWI, the Boer war etc. Israel and Hamas both failed that standard.

Innocent civilians are a polite fiction more than anything. Logically the factories making material of war are a legitimate military target. WW2 women making shells in those factories were fighting just as much as troops in the field. The communities around those factories were supporting them so it was logical that Germany bombed the Coventry human infrastructure and Britain firebombed Dresden's human infrastructure.

There is a lot of moral murkiness and always will be since industrial war developed because civilian populations form the supply chain of war. I don't agree with it or Russia warring against apartment buildings but can see there can desire to disrupt the military supply line.

However, a hard, fast & strong distinction is present in circumstances like this. It is black and white. And it is simply that an attack occurred on civilians outside the battle and near battle zones. Hamas made the whole of Gaza either a battle environment or near battle environment. Ditto Israel made Israel a battle zone. But Bondi Beach is nearly half the earths circumference from the battle zone. i. e about as far as it can possibly.

That's your moral distinction and lack of equivalence.

[Asker]

Proportionality

Israel is secure with iron dome defence system, dropping bombs from the sky on an imprisoned population.

30,000 pound bombs dropped on civilian population. And people sheltering in tents.

After Israel had killed, say 10x what hand killed they could have stopped. That's say 10 x 2,000 killed in Israel equals 20,000
But instead day after day we witnessed atrocities by Israel. Inhuman behavior by Israel on the world stage. Killing at least 35x=70,000
Injuring 100x=200,000
Indoor behavior by Democratic country. Behaving in way they were treated in 1940 Germany

By comparison how is Sydney different to that?

Gaza can't hit back at Israel

[RavVid]

How is Sydney different? Well Islamic State waged war on non-Israeli civilians.

The gunman shot French and Slovak persons. The Jewish people that were shot upon & killed were not Israelis but were Australians and just one of the diverse cultural groups that make up Australians.

While you don't say so, I think you in the back ground, are equating Jewish people with Israelis. And therefore equivalently guilty as Israelis. Israel's Law of Return is fairly aggressive and at a time young Jews were reluctant to travel to Israel because they would find themselves in the army asap. Now Israeli citizenship has to be claimed.

It distresses me that civilian citizens of the other side are targets. But how many of the Jewish people were in fact dual Israeli citizens? It didn't make any difference that French and Slovak citizens were killed.

There is no moral equivalence. In fact Islamic leaders are once again contemptible. They are very quick to say "Don't hurt us. Don't victimize us" but they are never willing to absolutely condemn terrorism.

Instead on Oct 7 they had street parties - which tells us a lot..

[Asker]

I don't see any evidence of Jews anywhere condemning Israel for its behavior

And I see lots of American Jews online supporting the Gaza destruction

Even here someone suggested the nuclear option

I'm condemning Sydney also but
I can understand

Innocent Jew anywhere = innocent Gazan

[Anonymous]

Nah, its not the same, the situations are completely different, gaza is facing mass civilian deaths, while the incident in sydney was a single attack.

[Asker]

Gaza is worse?

[Asker]

Are there lessons to be learned?

[Asker]

In Gaza babies had legs amputated

[Will_Allard]

It is absolutely no different. When Israel carpet bombs the Gaza it is imbued with the same lack of humanity as when the perpetrators of the Bondi shooting killed 12 innocent Australians.


Just as the Israelis (IDF) may consider all who reside in the Gaza Strip as enemy combatants — which any reasonable person knows is a falsity. The awful hate-fueled gunmen saw any Jewish person and decided to gun them down.


It is this line of reasoning that promulgates the hatred the war and the genocide.


I know not how this may be stopped, but in talking to each other surely we can mitigate some of the hellfire

[Jackblue]

Talk talk, no more talking Israel has held back for decades against Muslim foes and suffered centuries of oppression which openly continues in Muslim countries today. Hamas was surrender no conditions.

[boundless]

Clearly there is a huge difference given that Australia is a sovereign country. The Palestinians of Gaza lead by Hamas started a war with the State of Israel. Thus a war was created by Gaza against Israel with both being opposing belligerents in said war. If Palestinians were to attack Jews in Australia, then they would be declaring war on Australia due to the Jews being citizens of that sovereign country unrelated to the State of Israel. Legally it would be a terrorist attack. That would draw Australia into the war on the side of Israel against Gaza and escalate the conflict and provoke American security forces to respond to Palestinian aggression expressed during a peace process.

[boundless]

Then Gaza would have drawn 3 world powers into a war with it and would have to face off against Israel, the USA, and Australia. They were already losing significantly against Israel alone.

[Asker]

No idea what you are trying to say

Are you saying next we'll see, not just USA and Israel bombing Gaza but Australia as well?

I don't see Australia featuring in this argument

I just see Jews vs Muslims

And so happens Jews live in Australia

If Jews generally speaking, wanted to dissociate themselves from the actions of Netanyahu, they should have spoke up. But they didn't. They aquisced to the killing of babies.

[boundless]

Is Sydney not in Australia? You are conducting a war in the territory of a sovereign nation violating their rights and security. Thus you are an aggressor toward their nation.

[Asker]

Of course yes Sydney is in Australia

But I disagree it's a "country" thing
You think it is. I think not.

I think it's gonna be about Jews vs Muslims

Other Australians won't pick up arms and attack where? Gaza? Iran?

The killing of Jews can happen anywhere, USA, Canada, UK, Australia.

[boundless]

I know Muslims think they own the entire world and don't respect other nation's sovereignty, but everyone else understands it. If you carry out terrorist attacks against Australia, they would be forced to defend themselves.

[Asker]

Maybe Israel will bomb Sydney looking for the rest of the perpetrators?

[boundless]

Israel doesn't have aircraft carriers. It's a defensive force...

[boundless]

Israel's military doctrine is centered around principles like deterrence, early warning, and defense. In contrast the American military is mainly told to never set up a defenses unless you are certain you are going to die. Always push forward and attack. That's why America has by far the most air craft carriers, the largest air force, the most powerful navy, and so one because we bring the war to you where ever you try to hide.

[boundless]

*"defense"
*"aircraft"
*"on"

[Miristheiss]

Comparing this to war?

You are fucked up.

Based on this evil logic I can go murder any Russian citizen on the planet because there is a war in Ukraine.

I can go murder any Arab Palestinian on the globe because of the war Hamas started in 2023.

Any German on the earth was justified to murder any American or Brit or French person in any country because of WW2.

We could just ambush and slaughter anyone on the planet of German or Japanese descent because of the 2nd world war.

Evil logic.

[Asker]

You have one good point

But your missing a HUGE one

Correct it's wrong to murder indiscriminately Australians who happen to be Jewish. Point taken.

However, who gave the situation in Gaza the title"war"? Netanyahu?
So he could proceed to senselessly must women and children? So it's okay what he did? And not okay what happened in Sydney?

That's where you're wrong

Take the word "war" out of your mouth. That's a construct created by Israel and USA.

[Miristheiss]

Well, why was it war when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor?
We killed millions of Japanese in response and bombed out many of their cities.

USA population was 133 million then. 2400 were killed at Pearl Harbor.

0.0000180451 of our population. War was declared because of this attack.

1200 in Israel were killed. Population is 10 million.

0.00012 of their population. Israel is fixed on destroying Hamas. Israel is at war with the cowards hiding in their tunnels and under hospitals.

I do not know what kind of bizarre logic you are using to hint Israel and Hamas are not at war.

[Asker]

That was called the second world war.

Definitely a war

Of course it was morally wrong due USA to use the nuclear bomb
They were just practicing on a easy target

Later on they didn't dare use nuclear against China during the Korean war

But to the question, there is an issue of proportionality in Gaza

Hamas carried out an attack. I don't think they declared war. They don't really have an army. Israel doesn't allow them to have an army. It's just a bunch of idealistic young men.

Israel and the allies decided THEY were going to war

And proceeded to bomb Gaza to pieces. Because they can. It was an immature act. Militarily Israel is untouchable. There was no need to drop bombs on civilians. Why did they do it? Because they were angry and they wanted revenge. Blood. Are they happy now?

[CalmUntilAbused]

If You have any data on who the people shooting the Jews in Australia were, please provide it. The way I see it, one very important thing to note about the shooting in Australia is that it was apparently done during some Hanukkah rituals. Now, being Polish and knowing from a certain source what Hanukkah is about... I admit, I'd rather use a fire extinguisher than a gun to intervene in these rituals, in order not to cause any casualties... But I cannot really speak against anyone protesting against Hanukkah by default. All I can say is that the protest should not be lethal.

[goaded]

Maybe you should take the fire extinguisher to England where we burn the effigy of a Catholic every 5 November. How about you just leave people alone.

The shooters were, apparently, father and son who claimed membership of IS.

[CalmUntilAbused]

@goaded Thank You for the information. I don't think You got the fire extinguisher reference, though. It's basically a Polish inside joke, I think.

[goaded]

I assumed it was some non-lethal attack. In the 1970's it was common to use CO2 extinguishers up girls' skirts, I'm told.

[CalmUntilAbused]

@goaded So... There was that case of a Hanukkah ceremony in the Polish Parliament in 2023, and there was that Polish MP who extinguished the Hanukkah candles with a fire extinguisher. He later explained the dark hidden meaning of Hanukkah, at least in the eyes of the sect (Chabad-Lubavitch, with the portrait of a certain Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson present at the ceremony) organizing that Hanukkah in the Polish Parliament (I suppose it can be innocent if celebrated by respectable, non-racist Jews).

[CalmUntilAbused]

It was very much a non-lethal form of protest against Hanukkah, though some people addressed in a similar way they would address an assassination.

[CalmUntilAbused]

"addressed it"*

[Sal_Monella]

The Indiscriminate shooters of Jews in Sydney were not in a war that started with heinous murders of hundreds of Jews in their homes.

"I'm reminded of seeing him signing a bomb destined for Gaza civilians."
That bomb was intended for Hamas terrorists.

But it's OK. I don't even presume to change your mind. It is certainly locked.

[goaded]

Funny how Israel managed to kill someone a thousand miles away through their window and yet be unable to not flatten whole neighbourhoods in Gaza.

[Sal_Monella]

@goaded Why is it funny, exactly? Are you laughing?

[Asker]

Intended is one thing
Destined is another
Unfortunately when you bomb a hospital full of women and children you tend to kill them.

[Asker]

When goaded says funny he means ironic/far fetched
It ain't difficult

[Jackblue]

Then Hamas should stop hiding its tunnels under hospitals.

[Asker]

Because hiding in tunnels legitimizes Israel behavior lkillng women and children?

[Jackblue]

Let's say for a moment Israel were to go and search throughout Gaza finding every single tunnel and militant instead of using bombs, all the while there are Hamas fighters in every block trying to kill them. Israel would lose its entire army.

[Jackblue]

Except Israel is not engaging in indiscriminate shooting. It is shooting in a war zone against extremely well armed Hamas militants who hide amongst civilians. Did you know that if a police officer shoots a civilian in a gun fight with a criminal than the criminal is guilty of said civilian's murder. Because he is responsible. Hamas is responsible for all deaths Palestinian and Israeli.

[Berethor]

You lying, IDF don't target civilians, it just that Hamas hide among civilians, so some get killed.

[Asker]

Omg can you defend indiscriminate bombing?

The target was family homes, beside other family homes

Wikipedia
as of April 2024 the bomb tonnage dropped on Gaza was more than 70,000 tonnes

And just as by the way, the bombs were provided by the US

[goaded]

Children aren't Hamas.

[Jackblue]

@goaded And what about Hamas's child soldiers?

[goaded]

@Jackblue So that means all children are Hamas?

[SeekerOfTruth007]

Palestinians started the war. Israel finished it. If you can't take the heat, don't go around starting wars.

[Asker]

Oh no!
Another idiot

[KostasKouvalis]

"Innocent" my ass!
I've never seen Jews blowing people up

[Asker]

You are endorsing the killing of women and children?

Now you have to weigh up that sentiment and why those people were killed in Sydney

[KostasKouvalis]

You mean THESE children?

https://youtu.be/G_qOZCxvmNg?si=Q4cbQeU4ikchUPOY

And the women even if they don't act, they support

[Asker]

So if the population hates the Jewish aggressor... that justifies dropping bombs on women and children?
You see now why Israelis are hated? Why Netanyahu is hated by bystanders worldwide?

How unjustifiable the behavior of Israel was in the Gaza conflict?

[Asker]

Let's bomb you until you don't hate us anymore?

[KostasKouvalis]

Jewish agressor?
They didn't bother Palestine. Their scientists worked together. Palestinians were allowed to work and study in Israel. Israel gave them food and water. Israel didn't bother them until they started bringing bombs to work, schools and synogogues.

It worked with the Japanese.

[Asker]

Are they your toenails in your profile photo?

[KostasKouvalis]

No. French model from Instagram. Why? You wanna suck them?

[Asker]

Just wondering how weird you really are

[KostasKouvalis]

Weird doesn't mean I'm dumb. Everything I said was true. They even gave Palestine autonamy. This is all stuff you can find on Google.
Also, look up Amin-al-Husseni aka "The Palestinian Hitler"

[Asker]

There can be no discussion if you're justifying the killing of thousands of women and children because they didn't like you.

And then you suggest the nuclear bombing of Japan was the correct approach

[KostasKouvalis]

I'm saying it made them stop hating and made them pacifists, which was your initial argument

[Asker]

Ahh well then!
Kill couple hundred thousand Palestinians. Problem solved!
How about that happens to Israel, would that solve the problem too?

[KostasKouvalis]

Clearly it didn't.

[Asker]

You didn't see my second option

[KostasKouvalis]

You should read about what the Palestinians did to Lebanese Christians after Lebanon took pitty on them and took them in.
It's the reason Jordan didn't take any

[Jackblue]

Israel can't make the Palestinians like them, but it can force their surrender just as we forced the Axis to surrender both Germany and Japan.

[KostasKouvalis]

@Jackblue Thank you

[noohair]

If you are unable to differentiate the difference there is nothing that I can say to you…

[beefcakebradybatson]

Yes, grounded in hatred of "the other."

[Jackblue]

The "other" is a myth which Hegel started and post-colonialists twisted.

[beefcakebradybatson]

@Jackblue We blacks have always been otherized since 1619.

[Jackblue]

We whites have been oppressed by blacks since the Carthaginians pillaged Sicily and Spain, but othering is just a term that is used to mean anything post-colonialists want it to. If white people are cruel it is othering, if we are kind it is othering, if we ignore you it is othering.

[beefcakebradybatson]

@Jackblue Crack, coke, meth and Fentanyl really kicked in, eh, Jackie? I must have missed our enslaving whites for nearly a quarter-millenium, then after a brief Reconstruction, passing Jim Crow laws to basically re-enslave you for most of another century, and continuing to loathe you for no reason save racism.

[Anonymous]

October 7 was a huge mistake.

[Asker]

The Netanyahu reaction was Over The Top

You can treat civilian population like that. Even if Hamas were hiding behind the population
And even if the civilian population hates Israel, some adult should have shouted stop. So violence is to be condemned. And towards babies for me that was the worst.

[Opinion Owner]

So put a Palestinian flag on your Facebook page.

[Jackblue]

Over the top, Israel has reacted more cautiously for generations? You don't want dead civilians tell Hamas to fight in uniforms as the Ukrainians do, in the open.

[Opinion Owner]

Good idea

[Jackblue]

thanks

[ABC1x1x]

Both are based and should happen more often