How much personal freedom are you willing to sacrifice, in order to live in a safe, well-ordered society?

[EveryDayIsPretzelDay]

[Zack-Bann]

None.
I don’t care about safe.
I can defend myself if someone came knocking.


Our problem is we have too many rules not too few.


Every day we “sacrifice another freedom”
We never actually get any of them back.


If you look at history, the few times a society had complete freedom, people either thrived or they died young.


Which is better than no one thriving and all of us growing old just grinding the machine very slowly and waiting for the chum change to fall off so we can eat.


“Go big or go home” to me, is a win-win

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

I followed the 'lone wolf' part of the story, when you said you enjoyed the ability to defend yourself. However the rest of the story seems disconnected, as soon as you talked about a collective problem we would have, "our problem".

I think you can't have both worlds, if your life philosophy is about yourself, then it looks odd to act like it's the collective's business to be dragged into your philosophy.

[Zack-Bann]

No one is a “lone wolf”
That’s just something people say
We are all technically pack animals

I don’t live on a self sufficient farm in the middle of nowhere
And even if I did, with no access to things like medicine I wouldn’t last too long.

Having personal freedom doesn’t have to come in exile, we can be free to interact with one another

And have accountability stem from proper upbringing and instilled values

Think of the “wild west” during the height of lawlessness and self governance:
You had a 1 in 60 chance to get shot with a gun, over 10 years
And that’s if you’re a specific demographic of young abled men

People somehow tolerated and dealt with one another in good faith without the threat of a government constantly hanging over them

Sure they had sheriffs and deputies for larger cities and such but that’s just to avoid a small instance of violence from snowballing into a bloodbath

And there are plenty of examples from other societies around the world and across the ages who figured out harmonious living without the need for a strict governing system constantly keeping them in check

It’s not perfect. But the freedom itself is priceless

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

I'm probably not enough into USA to think that highly of the wild west, especially given the potential there is to romanticize it. So let's talk about these societies around the world and across the ages where harmonious living existed. Because the only examples I have in mind right now would be simple and autarkic societies composed of very few people.

[Snakeyes7]

The US bill of rights lays out what is *supposed* to be non-negotiable, and I think it's good enough for me.

[purplepoppy]

I'm more scared of people who want total freedom because they're never open about what they'll do with it. When people want complete freedom it's always to harm others.

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

Oh I think some are very open, looking at some US anarcho-capitalist speeches, they seem open with slavery for example.

[Kelley1]

None, but I have no control since most people place safety over freedom. As a result, we have neither.

[goaded]

You'll have to be more specific.

I'm happy to give up the freedom to carry a deadly weapon, because I know that weight of numbers is more powerful; weapons are used to keep minorities in power, not majorities.

I like regulations that protect people's health and lives, and that's not giving up a freedom, it's protecting everyone from evil.

"Freedoms" to exploit or harm people should be limited, for the sake of those people.

[abc3643]

What freedoms?

I will simply say this... a lot of things in life - especially at your age - are abstractions, but, once you face them in life and they become reality, then your perspective... and priorities... changes.

I DO like a safe, well-ordered society. Unfortunately, the way America was constructed, it encourages the opposite to a large degree.

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

But I don't see anything looking like a safe, well-ordered society. That is, for a usual country.

I suppose that Iceland is particularly safe though they have to manage only 400k people, a city-state, which is obviously cheating. North-Korea is particularly well-ordered possibly, if you like living a life that belongs to the nearest overlord.

And then we have

[beefcakebradybatson]

Not much. I'm the great-grandson of Maryland slaves.

[exitseven]

I do not want to give up any. I have armed myself and do not want to give up any of my personal freedoms.

[strateguy632]

None because no deal. They can't really guarantee safe!

[Agape93]

None. I'd rather have my freedom, and kill the threats to me.

[slatyb]

I would be willing to pay higher taxes to live in Europe.

[Zack-Bann]

Been doing that for years
Not worth the price of admission

[slatyb]

@Zack-Bann try living in the US without health insurance

[Zack-Bann]

A death sentence I’m sure.

But the grass is not greener on any side.

No health insurance means you have to come up with money to get treated

Universal health insurance means everyone else will be in line before you for that treatment

So it’s either you die after a hospital turns you away
Or you die while waiting in an endless queue in front of the “emergency” room

The only winning options are to either have private insurance in the US
Or to be rich enough to get private treatment in Europe (which has extra costs to the sum the government covers)

[slatyb]

@Zack-Bann And yet somehow life expectancies in Europe are longer than in the US, infant and maternal mortality is lower.

[Zack-Bann]

All the stats are great.

I tore my ACL last November and I can tell you my first hand experience with the health industry has been horrible

The good average are not helping me at all

[slatyb]

@Zack-Bann Where are you?

[Zack-Bann]

France

[Sal_Monella]

The US Constitution is pretty good.

[Jeff51]

Some but we have freedom now.

[Buford_T_Justice]

Some