How do you view the fact that people from your own nation rose to high positions in Ottoman service?

[MerakSahibi]

In contrast to Europe’s rigid caste-like system of unchanging serf-lord classes, the Ottomans witnessed instances where even a Croatian swineherd like Rustem Pasha could rise to the position of Grand Vizier (equivalent to today’s Prime Minister). While it was virtually impossible for a peasant's child in Spain or France to govern the state alongside the king, Ibrahim Pasha—the son of a Greek fisherman from Parga—could become the second most powerful man in the Ottoman Empire as Grand Vizier and Serasker.

The first step on this ladder of fortune and advancement was usually converting to Islam. As the poet remarked regarding Kosem Sultan: 'She was born a priest's daughter and died the mother of Muslims.'

Unlike the Germanic peoples, the Ottomans built a system that assimilated diverse elements or transformed them into its own fold. Much like how the United States attracts a 'brain drain' today, the Ottomans pursued a similar strategy.

Furthermore, after conquering Europe, the state bureaucracy created bureaucratic and military avenues through the devshirme system. So much so that in the 16th century, it was believed that Serbian was spoken in the Ottoman court more than Turkish.

For example:

Mimar Sinan: Armenian
Sokullu Mehmed Pasha: Serb
Kilic Ali Pasha: Italian (Giovanni Dionigi Galeni)
Barbaros Hayreddin Pasha: Greek
Humbaraci Ahmed Pasha: French (Comte de Bonneval)
Ibrahim Muteferrika: Hungarian

Proud

Treacherous dogs!

[Laws-Of-Existence]

Pederasty bad. Europeans good. ㅤ

[Anonymous]

You mean slaves and eunnuchs.

Sir John Hawkwood: Hailing from a relatively humble family in Essex, he rose to become one of the most famous mercenary military commanders (condottieri) of the Middle Ages in Italy, accumulating massive wealth and marrying into nobility.

Basil I: Starting from a destitute peasant family in the Byzantine Empire, he used personal skills, patronage, and court maneuvering to eventually rise through the palace ranks and seize the imperial throne.

what Tyler: A roof tiler and war veteran who famously emerged as the charismatic leader of the 1381 The Peasants' Revolt in England, directly confronting King Richard II to demand the abolition of serfdom.

Cosimo de' Medici (27 September 1389 – 1 August 1464), also known as Cosimo the Elder (il Vecchio), was an Italian banker and politician who became the de facto ruler of Florence during the Italian Renaissance.

Joan of Arc convinced the French Dauphin (the future King Charles VII) to let her accompany the royal army during a desperate phase of the Hundred Years' War.

[Opinion Owner]

There are many many more.

[MerakSahibi]

You touched upon a great point by bringing up slavery, because slavery in the Islamic world was far more complex than the enslaved Black people working in your cotton plantations.

Unlike Transatlantic slavery—which bound individuals and their descendants to a lifetime of bondage—Ottoman slavery was neither permanent nor inheritable. In practice, slaves were typically manumitted after 8 years. Furthermore, through the system of mukataba (contractual manumission), slaves had the legal right to earn money and purchase their own freedom.

The kapikullari (slaves, yet effectively prime ministers) of whom even the sultans themselves were wary, concubines, ghilman (slave soldiers), and eunuchs each had distinct roles, rights, and institutional power.

Furthermore, the men known as eunuchs were predominantly Black Abyssinians. Castrated by Copts, they were sold from there to Istanbul. These men would rise to become the Chief Black Eunuch (Kizlar Agasi), occupying the 3rd or 4th most powerful position in the entire empire

[Opinion Owner]

Let's not bring up slavery in the Islamic world. There are no black descendants of slaves in the muslim world today because they were all castrated. Muslims enslaved far more Africans and continue to do so today.

[MerakSahibi]

Castration is strictly prohibited under Islamic law—it was the Copts who carried out the process. If you think the Middle East is 100% Arab and Muslim, you clearly have a long way to go

[Opinion Owner]

So it was ok because muslims paid others to do so. Did muslims outlaw their coptic subjects doing this?

[MerakSahibi]

Because under Islamic law, Dhimmi subjects (non-Muslims) were allowed to govern themselves by their own laws

[Opinion Owner]

Uh huh but under muslim rule. You see what im saying, just because you pay others to do it for you doesn't mean you aren't responsible

[Taranis_Thunor]

"While it was virtually impossible for a peasant's child in Spain or France to govern the state alongside the king"

If Democracy has taught me anything it's that plebs shouldn't be near power.

[MerakSahibi]

The purpose of social mobility was never democracy; it was to establish a centralized state that prevented the formation of an aristocratic class. In fact, this is presented as the reason why a bourgeoisie class never emerged in our history. Between 1453 and 1839, 21% of the grand viziers (prime ministers) who served were executed; this is referred to as 'execution for reasons of state' (siyaseten katl). You assign a man to the position—if he fails to deliver, he surrenders his head

[Taranis_Thunor]

@MerakSahibi So the Carthaginian system with Monarchy instead of Democracy. But it allows incompetent people to climb the social ladder still and perfectly competent people to be executed over any accusation.

[Agape93]

I love how you people always rave about the ottomans. Goes to show, the last time turkey had anything worthwhile, ended over a century ago.

[MerakSahibi]

Sad but its true

[Agape93]

Thats embarrassing.

[Anonymous]

No opinion, I am not from any of those places.

[MerakSahibi]

These are merely the most famous examples—the spectrum spans all the way from Abyssinian Blacks to Germans