What's the consensus of transgender women in sports?

[Anonymous]

I find it appauling that biological males are able to enter themselves into female teams, and I'd like to know if the majority of the population agrees, because there are many biological men permitted to join women's leagues for violent/aggressive sports.

It's fine.

It's not fine.

It'd be fine IF.. (explain)

[WhiteSteve]

I’m for sure open to the conversation about it from a competitive standpoint.

What I reject is using the issue as camouflage to just be generally hateful and oppressive to trans people.

For the entirety of my awareness of them, I’ve heard female athletes being the butt of the joke, and how their sports aren’t as good or aren’t as good as the men’s version of the game. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone talk about the WNBA unless it was as a punchline. Maybe they get occasional respect at the Olympics, for figure skating or gymnastics, sports men have already kind of written off as soft and don’t care if women dominate. And not for nothing, I’d wager they tend to be fairly objectively attractive to men in the typical body types common to that sport, so that probably doesn’t hurt. Other sports, the women are sometimes called burly or manly. I mean, think of how dudes talk about Livvy Dunne vs how they talk about Britney Griner.

Now, all of a sudden, everyone’s a steward of the integrity of women’s high school athletics? Again, I’m totally open to studying this and discussing how to handle it if there legitimately are the competitive advantages they fear. But people can’t look me in the eye and tell me they truly give a shit about this angle, and it seems to be the #1 objection because it’s the least assailable, most faux-rational way to be a douchebag to group of people you just viscerally don’t like. But you don’t give a fuck about the local high school field hockey team, bro, get the fuck outta here, I’m not slow 😂😂😂

Like just crunch the numbers with me. Let’s generously estimate that 50% of high school girls participate in athletics. What percentage of them are going to play sports later on, at the college level? I don’t have the figures in front of me, but let’s say like 15, 20%? That might even be a little high.

New set of numbers: what percentage of people are trans? Gotta be less than 1%, I’d think, but let’s say 1% for a round number. Let’s say 50% of them are male-to-female. So we’re dealing with.5% of the population even being M-to-F trans, probably generously. Of that.5%, how many are high school age? Of them, how many are athletes? Of the athletes, how many, even with a supposed leg up as being born a male, are going to be college-quality athletes? And if we want to talk financial impacts like competing for scholarships, that’s an even smaller group.

Point is, we’re talking about a slice of a slice of a slice of a slice of a slice of the population, and I’m hearing some people screaming about it like it’s this overwhelming wave of change sweeping the country and the world. And you’re outside of your mind if you think people are just going to start claiming to be trans just to be more competitive in WOMEN’S sports, which don’t make you a whole hell of a lot of money.

And I can’t stress enough, if we study it honestly and find it tips the balance too much in too many cases, no problem, have them compete with men, have a separate trans division, whatever they want to do, just arrive at it respectfully.

Just don’t take up the cause as a seemingly polite front to be an asshole. I don’t know if those people think the rest of us are that stupid, but we’re not.

[Caroline91]

So many good points. I t think it does, ultimately, come down to taking a good, subjective look at things and trying to come up with equitable solutions. But then, that's true in pretty much all aspects of society, so the points you've made could be applied to a lot of social issues. Thanks!

[MrOracle]

"For the entirety of my awareness of them, I’ve heard female athletes being the butt of the joke, and how their sports aren’t as good or aren’t as good as the men’s version of the game. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone talk about the WNBA unless it was as a punchline."

This only started happening when female athletes started demanding "equal pay" with the men, REGARDLESS of how much their league actually EARNED. The fact is that most major women's sports pay women a considerably larger percentage of the league's gross earnings than the men get - but because the men's leagues earn vastly more money overall, the men get higher pay.

And they didn't always - when the various leagues were new, the pay was relatively low for all but the very top players. It took decades to build the sports to the levels they are today, and a lot of work to appeal to the public and to work with sponsors and TV and so on. Certain groups of female athletes (and it's not ALL of them, of course) expect the same pay without putting in the same time or putting out a similar product. THAT is why when their sports started to be criticized.

Notice you don't hear a peep from female tennis players. Why? They've had a league MUCH longer, and they've worked to build it up over time, and they offer competitive, entertaining sport that the general public is much more interested in consuming, so they make more revenue and get higher pay. You don't hear anyone giving female tennis players grief, right?

[WhiteSteve]

@MrOracle Fair points about women’s tennis as a product, but I’d disagree that the ridicule only started when equal pay demands were made. That started a new brand of ridicule, but I definitely remember jokes all growing up in the 80s and 90s, like Martina Navratilova being a lesbian, there was Jim Carrey’s female bodybuilder character “Vera De Milo” on In Living Color, I remember an early Saved By The Bell episode where some female jock took a liking to Zack Morris and was overpowering him and ragdolling him around, lmao. And when the WNBA first launched, people had jokes then too, about how the women were all lesbians, or unattractive because of their size. I just don’t think it’s a recent thing, as it all relates to people suddenly taking up arms for female athletes when they may not even know any. Just feels like a thinly veiled excuse to apply pressure to a demographic they don’t like, in many cases, and in my opinion.

[MrOracle]

Martina got that attention not because she was a female athlete but because she presented as a lesbian, with manly haircuts and just overall a lack of femininity. Anna Kournakova was a female tennis player and no one accused her of being a lesbian, right?

[WhiteSteve]

@MrOracle Right, but Kournakova was a better model than she was a tennis player. Goes along with my earlier point: Britney Griner is probably a better basketball player than Livvy Dunne is a gymnast, just relative to their fields. Like if there was a Women’s Olympic Basketball team, I’d have to think Britney is on it, or at least would’ve been in her prime, not sure if she’s one the wrong side of 30 or not, but even still…. can’t hurt having someone 6’9 out there guarding the rim, even at 30+. Livvy IS in her prime, she’s a member of successful collegiate gymnastics program, but if she was going to be an Olympian, she’d probably have already been there. We know who Livvy Dunne is because she’s broadly attractive to men. We knew who Anna Kournakova was because she was broadly attractive to men. They’re good athletes but not elite in the top ranks. I don’t watch either sport, but I know these two women because they’re hot. That’s kind of fucked up, really. I’m happy they were able to cash in on it, but as an athlete, I’m sure they’d like recognition for being skilled in their respective sports. And they are/were, but that’s not the headline, the headline is “hot blonde with tight bod plays a sport in a flattering uniform.”

[WhiteSteve]

@MrOracle The Williams sisters were PHENOMENAL, and there seemed to be a cultural aspect to it, I’ve heard them called attractive in some circles, been when I talk with other white dudes, most of them can’t have a conversation about them without saying the look beastly or something like that. Martina Navratilova should be able to look any way she wants and present as whatever sexuality she likes without anyone having a peep to say about it, is my point, and also that we should respect female athletes based on performance, not looks. It’s fine to find people attractive, but that shouldn’t be the lead of the story.

And conversely, women shouldn’t have to present themselves in a way that satisfies the opinions of men to get respect. I remember not too long ago the US Women’s soccer team was getting some flak, I forget exactly why, I think that was part of the equal pay thing, plus some of them didn’t suck Trump’s dick so MAGA heads got triggered, lmao. But anyway…. Megan Rapinoe seems like a very good soccer player, as does Alex Morgan. But I hear them talked about differently by men, despite carrying similar opinions. Alex Morgan is a little more conventionally pretty and feminine looking. I’m pretty sure Megan Rapinoe is a lesbian, and she has the dreaded “short purple hair” you hear about in right wing memes. So I hear “Megan Rapinoe can suck my dick and then move to China”, and “Alex Morgan is kind of annoying, but I’d still smash.” It’s just that entire poorly-cloaked mood beneath all of this that I don’t rock with.

[MrOracle]

Did you not read my previous posts, where I mentioned that the woman's national soccer league (led by Rapino) has been beat several times by under-15 boys leagues, and was recently beaten badly by a team of retired men in their 50s? Those are FACTS - we don't have to speculate what would happen. Rapino could never qualify - merit-wise - to be on a men's team. That's precisely why a woman's league exists.

The same for Griner. She may be one of the best female basketball players the world has ever seen, but she and her team have never beaten the under-16 boys teams they've played, which has happened a few times over the years.

You literally have to be delusional to believe that these women would be competitive against pro male athletes. Most of the pro female athletes would tell you the same thing.

[MrOracle]

Let Serena Williams explain it in her own words.

https://youtu.be/2hzHBsvj6C0?si=sqHHm0QGzts7xTOa

[WhiteSteve]

@MrOracle I haven’t read anything other than my own opinion and the responses to it, and I don’t think you mentioned it here.

In any case, I’m not even talking about male vs female competition with you thus far. I’m talking about women’s athletics not being historically highly respected in most cases by men, often with a strange tinge of animosity to it sometimes. And I bring all that up just to illustrate why I feel this sudden call-to-arms to defend the integrity of women’s sports is fugazi. I have absolutely no problem with having GOOD-FAITH analysis and discussion about how to handle this. If the answer is “trans women don’t compete with women who have been female since birth”, that’s totally acceptable, as long as there’s 0% transphobia involved and 100% respect given in the process.

If you’re looking for an argument about if trans women should compete with biological women, I’m not the guy. My only point I’m looking to add to the discussion is about what is it isn’t done disingenuously. I believe that a good deal of the people loudly opposing trans women in women’s sports are disingenuous, they dislike trans women more than they care about the integrity of women’s sports, and this an avenue to single out trans people and make life harder for them, whether they’re athletes themselves or not, just the general effect on the mood towards trans people I feel this aims to cause.

Bigotry isn’t generally welcome out loud, so most of it has to publicly said carefully. They can’t say “Trans people just weird me out, I don’t understand it, what if one day I kiss an ex-guy? OH MY GOD. I just want these people to completely disappear or go back into hiding so I don’t feel threatened by their existence!”

[WhiteSteve]

@MrOracle Instead, they have to put the PR spin on it, and act like their objections are solely based on some unquestionable moral/religious principle, or it gets pseudo-intellectualized, or gets some brand of bullshit excuse related to “common sense and logic would preclude us from making any alterations, it just wouldn’t be practical.”

But it’s just one of those things where I’m like “I’m not just bothered that by the ignorance. There’s a simultaneous insult to my intelligence going on here, I think. Because these shrouds they’re operating under, hiding their true feelings of “I don’t know, I just don’t like them”, they’re SO obviously bogus, and it’s just like…. this is so poorly disguised, either THEY’RE stupid, or they think I’M stupid enough to buy it.”

I don’t know, like I said before, trans women athletes are a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the population, but there's a disproportionate amount of concern. Like it’s.01% of the population and it’s at least 15% of the Conservative Outrage Pie Chart, and I think it could be as high as 25%. Southern border, inflation, Hunter’s laptop, trans women athletes…I think that’s most of it.

So for the umpteenth time I’ll say I’m ok with the debate and I’m ok if it ends up separate. My concern is that no one does it as a means to be an asshole under the guise of a defensible cause that they don’t truly care about, or are more mad about than they should be because they don’t like the general idea of trans people, or whoever the group may be in whatever other instance.

[MrOracle]

There's a disproportionate amount of concern because trans athletes cause a wildly disproportionate amount of disruption to the sport. Born-male athletes have a massive unfair advantage, and in some sports, that directly leads to injuries to the women on a pretty regular basis. It also means the males will always win in the women's leagues, knocking biological women off the podium, and often out of a scholarship or other program intended for women. All of that is simply wrong.

[WhiteSteve]

@MrOracle We have all this energy for perceived unfairness in athletic competition —which, as a lifelong athlete, even I’ll tell you, isn’t AT ALL important in the grand scheme of the universe, it’s recreation that we’ve monetized— but we let idiots go to Yale and go on to get prestigious jobs that carry some real-life impact, all because their grandfather donated the library building to the school?

There’s unfairness EVERYWHERE in life, and we seem very selective —and incorrectly so, in my opinion— about which inequalities and inequities we choose to care about and attack. Do you have female athletes in your family with scholarships riding on this? I can name you ONE trans woman athlete. I’m sure more are out there, but we’re talking like the entirety of the US Women’s Olympic teams have been taken over by trans women.

A minuscule amount of people would ever be trans solely because they’d get a leg up in sports, I mean, holy smokes, I feel like this is blatantly obvious but being completely ignored. People who are trans ANYWAY may ALSO happen to be athletes. That’s the issue, where do they go? My gut tells me they should play with men, but I don’t have all the facts, and frankly, I just don’t care about the local high school volleyball team. If these are our biggest fish to fry, holy fuck, we need a recalibration of priorities. This isn’t me making a stink about what the final decision is, it’s 100% about the way it’s approached and the tenor of the conversation, what’s being said between the lines.

[WhiteSteve]

@MrOracle It’s not disrespectful to arrive at the conclusion that they can’t play with biological women. It IS disrespectful the way detractors are currently talking about it. It’s clearly not a good-faith effort with any care about what becomes of trans athletes, it’s protecting the already-much-more-powerful demographic of biological women, and THAT’S what’s fucked up. There’s no sensitivity towards the trans athletes, it’s not an well-meaning discussion of how to find trans women’s place in sports, it’s just an attempt to hard-slam the door of women’s athletics in trans women’s faces with a very, very, VERY obvious-but-often-unspoken undertone of “FUCK trans women athletes, I don’t give a fuck where they go, but those freaks can’t play here.” THAT’S 100% of my problem, I can’t put it more clearly than that. I don’t care about the decision, I care about the balance of respect and consideration being given to both parties in the conversation, and that’s currently wildly lopsided.

[JacobJordan]

Women's sports are for people born with a vagina not people that have a mental disorder and think just because they chopped their dick off and cut a hole into themselves makes them a woman. Personally any LGBT person that uses the wrong bathroom or lockerroom (ie trans woman in women's room or trans man in men's room) should be arrested, charged and convicted of attempted aggravated rape and attempted child molestation and placed on a list so they can't be near children ever. I protect women and children. Those freaks have no business being near children ever

[Jersey2]

Young women are being robbed by mediocre male athletes who found a loophole.

[JacobJordan]

@Jersey2 yup. Men and women are different and no amount of delusion will change that. But of course we all have to suffer the stupidity of the LGBT community trying to force there perverted ideals on us. In 1000 years the only thing that will be remembered about this Era of society is that for a period of 30 or do years people stepped aside and allowed the mentally challenged and unstable try to destroy the world. Or succeed in destroying it.

[laurieluvsit]

It is just a continuation of the Communist Agenda.

Women being dominated by men and pushed into 2nd class citizenry.

Why are we going backwards?

Forget the 'Glass Ceiling', what about the 'Iron Dome' that is now being built?

[MrOracle]

Just a *slight* clarification. While the ideology and the methodologies are certainly based in Marxism and Marxist practices, this is really a class issue - elites vs. everyone else, and the big problem is that a big portion of "everyone else" consists of the middle class. Having a middle class is dangerous to elites, who want to be able to do whatever they want to do without repercussions - the middle class outnumber the elites by a wide margin AND have voting power PLUS, as a group, access to lots of money. The middle class can't be ignored and controlled by elites as readily as the poor - and that's why elites HATE the middle class, and want it destroyed. They want themselves (the small number of all-powerful elites) and just enough powerless peasants to support their lifestyle, in virtual slavery if not outright slavery. All ideas right out of Marxism, but modern elites don't even pretend to be doing all of this for some future utopia of equality anymore - they just want all the power, period.

[Caroline91]

@MrOracle I'm confused... What does Marxism have to do with women's athletics exactly?

[normalice]

It's a distraction. The only people who seem to insist that trans women should play in women's sports are people who don't really care about sports at all. It makes sense then because what is some petty game compared to validating someone's existence? But I would argue sports is the one area where our conservative side (and we all have one) should be allowed to rule us. There may be some future solution that satisfies everyone but there isn't one now.

[Summeroflove]

Most people have common sense. It’s wrong. Men and women are different. There is male and female sports for a reason. If you wanna make a coed team then. Ok.


Now… Most people don’t care if there is trans people living their lives leaving people alone. But there is that fringe trans community that bothers people and well…. People who aren’t forcing their lifestyle on them don’t want them doing the same thing.

[DrPepper12]

I'm a a 🔥🔥🔥 liberal and I am TOTALLY AGAINST THIS silliness over pronouns, trans rights, gender definitions and their often shrill unhelpful defenders. SEX ASSIGNED AT BIRTH. How hard is that for various things and in your private life IDGAF WHAT YOU SAY YOU ARE just live your truth sista! I'm REALLY tired of this waste of time. 🤬

[Kaneki05]

Fine by me longs if they actually use hormones and change to be ya know trans. I would never say it's fine for a guy to just come up all macho like and saying yeah I am trans without any sign of bother to trying convert himself from that to woman.

[KrisKris81]

Steroid use is banned and a biological male is, essentially, a female on steroids. Allowing this to continue, to me, is like an argument for steroid use. It is not fair to the women who can only compete with biological males but using substances that can get them banned from the sport. This is woke B. S. that never should have been allowed.

[Berethor]

Never fine, a male can never become a female, male is always male, and men are stronger.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/URz-RYEOaig

[OddBeMe]

It’s an issue. But it’ll work itself out. Some studies say tranny drugs take a few years to lower testosterone levels to nominal areas of female players.

I’m not a sportsman so I don’t know. I have seen women beat the shit out of men and vice versa. Not sure there’s such a huge gap either way.

[MrOracle]

You have NEVER seen a top 20-ranked male lose to any woman, even a top-ranked woman, in any physical sport, because that's never happened. That's the entire reason that women's sports exist at all - so that women have an opportunity to compete on a reasonably level playing field. Allowing biological men into women's sports destroys the sport, and we have plenty of real-world examples already.

Men setting all the records and taking all the awards, endorsements, and scholarships will be the end of female sports. And yet it is overwhelmingly women who support this lunacy - non-athlete women who won't suffer under those policies.

[Caroline91]

I think it really depends on the particular sport. Although I am not part of the LBGTQ community, I have had numerous trans friends and if hormone treatment starts after puberty, the musculature is definitely affected. A trans woman's musculature is far more male-like than a biological woman's. For this reason, I don't think it is fair to allow anyone who doesn't have female chromosomes to participate in women's sports.

[OddBeMe]

@MrOracle Have top 20 athletes ever tried? Is that a thing?

Also that’s not the average athlete…that’s the top 20. Not really a fair assessment.

[Caroline91]

I kind of contradicted myself. I meant to say I don't think it fair to allow anyone who doesn't have female chromosomes to participate in *certain* women's sports.

[OddBeMe]

@Caroline91 maybe. I honestly don’t know if sports should be divvied by gender.

[Caroline91]

Why's that?

[OddBeMe]

@Caroline91 Why are they divided by gender?

[Caroline91]

Why don't you know if they should be divided by gender -- have you not formed an opinion on it one way or the other?

[OddBeMe]

@Caroline91 I will admit not to be a sports expert but have we researched whether it should be that way or just decided it because we were afraid to accidentally touch boobies?

[Caroline91]

Usually, I wouldn't find that particularly funny. But, maybe because I am punch-drunk from lack of sleep this morning, it hits me as extremely funny. Has anyone ever told you that what you lack in finesse you more than make up for in chutzpah?

[OddBeMe]

@Caroline91 Not in that way. Usually with more curse words.

[Caroline91]

@MrOracle Bobby Riggs vs Billie Jean King. But I'm actually cheating on that one 'cause he was 55 and she was 29 and I'm pretty sure he was way past his top 10 days!

[Caroline91]

OMG... Stop. You're killing me I'm laughing so hard!! by the way I don't generally curse, so you're safe. If I get really mad, I have been know to throw dishes... at people's heads.

[Caroline91]

@OddBeMe Does your wife's face hurt all the time from laughing at you?

[MrOracle]

Yes, Bobby Riggs was well past his prime at that point, while BJK was at her peak. Riggs was also overly arrogant and didn't take it very seriously at first, which he was made to regret.

[OddBeMe]

@MrOracle has there been research and study of gender and athletic ability? Any scientific reason they can’t play together? Or just societal ick?

[MrOracle]

Are you kidding? There is probably a billion dollars a year or more analyzing athletic performance. And, yes, there are very good reasons that there are separate leagues for men and women.

A couple of examples: the US women's soccer team has played against under-15 boys teams 3 times in the last 6 years and lost (by a wide margin) each time. WNBA teams also regularly get badly beaten playing against under-16 boys teams.

It's not at all a secret that there are significant physical differences between the sexes. And women are NOT banned from any men's professional sports - they just aren't competitive.

[OddBeMe]

@MrOracle those aren’t research dumbass. Have they researched in proper conditions female vs male athletes?

[onedarkcloud]

Women are women Sew a pair of breasts and a vagina on a guy you Still have a male human. UNTIL YOU CHANG EVERY STRAND OF DNA FROM MALE TO FEMALE you still have a male weather if it still has a dick or not. LESS THAN 002% OF THE POPULATION CAUSING THIS BULLSHIT! Keep transgender male out of female sports If they want to still want to play women in sports make a transgender division only

[coachTanthony]

Males enter the women's sports because they know they can dominate... trans or not it's not a good thing.

[jshm2]

Well... we need to have more transmen in male sports to show it to them... oh wait

Joking aside, it's all become a big joke and pandoras box that should never have been opened.

[AviatorTom]

Transgender women have a distinct physical advantage over cis women. There are numerous examples of this, and that is not fair.

[genericname85]

i think the few men that have already managed to be allowed in have showed quite clearly to everyone why this is a stupid idea.

[joehypo1]

They allow this and yet no wemen are allowed in nfl, nba, mlb , they should have a league of there own really or let weman play in mens sports

[strateguy632]

need a separate leag. born male only, born female only, and all the rest in a third leag.

[exitseven]

It should be banned. This should not even be a discussion.

[patrick994]

transsexual people who have gone through male puberty cannot compete with women.

[Anonymous]

No sane person with a spine supports transgender "women" competing in women's sports. The only people who support it are nut cases and people who are afraid to speak out against it for fear of being persecuted or cancelled.

[Knightwatch27]

It's a big mistake to equate consensus with truth. It's stupid ans wrong regardless of what people agree.

[KostasKouvalis]

I say we give them their own division. In the Special Olympics

[Anonymous]

No, there should be NO Biological Males in any women's sports, no matter what the allies of the Alphabet Squad, the Political Left, The Intersectional/Identitarian crowd say about it.