How do we include transgender people in women's sports?

[SupremeWarlord]

This is rarely discussed, people either think they are not allowed or they are. But how do we include them? They are people after all, and I'm sorry, but I think inventing an only-trans category is not a good solution, simply because there aren't many transgender people, so there would be few competitors.

Check out Maria José Martínez case:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Jos%C3%A9_Mart%C3%ADnez-Pati%C3%B1o
A woman with XY chromosome, she didn't have male organs like penis, and didn't have an uterus either, but she developed as a woman generally, with breasts and low testosterone levels, so she didn't have an advantage against women, she was only excluded because of the DNA testing. Some XY women are perfectly passable as XX women.

Using only testosterone levels do not help either, what about women with Polycystic Ovary Syndrome? Or the case of South-African sprinter Caster Semenya? She underwent hormonal treatment in order to stop her NATURAL testosterone production. Some XX women can naturally produce a lot more testosterone than the average woman, and why do we complain about them? We do not complain about Michael Phelps's longer arms, simply because he was born with them, why the same doesn't apply to these women?

Points to reflect, in men's sports, we only care about doping, anything else goes, it doesn't matter how different his body is, in women's sports on the other hand, it's this big mess.

I'll give my opinion now, I think we should allow transgender women to compete, okay I agree that it's strange to allow them before the transition, it seems unfair, I don't know, but after the transition, I'm perfectly fine with them, it doesn't matter if they have longer skeletons, it's not like your skeleton's size will be your trump card in all sports, actually it might even be a handicap depending on the sport (?). We don't complain about non-trans women with huge bones, why should we care about transgender?

[The-Wise-Phoenix]

Get them their over division where they can compete with other transgender women.
They should never be competing with biological females. EVER.
Not before transitioning or after.

Now consider the following. This issue only seems to effect women's sports.
It's never an issue if a woman to man transgender athlete is competing with biological men. That's because a transgender man does not have a strength advantage over a biological male. In other words the male athletes are not getting screwed over the way that the female athletes are.

[genericname85]

We don't. Sports can't be fair for the group of transgender people. Because even if we had a 3rd competition group called "transgender" we would still have to separate that group by biological gender. Cause otherwise biological men would basically outperform biological women in that group by such a huge margin, that no biological women will be part of the competition. That's why the gender separation in sports exists to begin with. Cause that's the only way to not have "all male competition". The societal concept of gender doesn't care for performance. In performance, biological men always win, unless they compete against severely doped women.

[Anonymous]

Too fucking bad. I'm tired of the whole world having to change for a tiny minority of people who think "something's" unfair. How many transgender athletes were there even before this all began? None! And the number even now is every smaller than the number of transgenders, way smaller. Well guess what? Sometimes life isn't fair. There are things in my life that aren't fair. I deal with them. You cannot add a man's strength and speed into a woman's sport. And if you're not willing to even compromise on realistic testosterone levels to make it possible, then just fuck off.

[The-Wise-Phoenix]

😏👍

[kyleelyn199723]

We shouldn’t 🤷🏻‍♀️ Trans-woman will never ever be woman biologically. They will always have male organs and will be built forever like a male. I was always taught that there is double standard in the world and this applies to that. Males are built to be athletic and hunters, women are not. It is unfair for a woman to work her ass off training to be in the Olympics to be best by a biological male that put in the half the effort because he knew he didn’t need to put in as much effort

[kyleelyn199723]

Beat*

[SupremeWarlord]

But after the hormone treatment their athletic ability decreases significantly, it's well documented.

[kyleelyn199723]

You can’t touch genetics. And as a woman myself, I feel disrespected by the Trans community that you are taking away women’s rights that we worked for

[SupremeWarlord]

I'm not taking away anything, I'm just "grating" trans women the right to participate, giving them something does not mean taking away anything from you.

Did you read my post in fullness?

[kyleelyn199723]

You are taking away from women. It’s only an argument for trans women vs trans men because men are more equipment for sports than women are. They have a right to participate in their own category. This generation puts too much emphasis on fantasy world instead of thinking of reality: they are trans women not actual women. In 2009 , this wasn’t an issue.

[Fion3il]

trans women are actual women...

[MudRucker]

@Fion3il Chopping off a males testicles does not turn into a female.

Having a double mastectomy does not turn a women into a male.

[kyleelyn199723]

@fion3il as a woman myself, they will never be us. I pride myself on being a woman and the shit we have to deal with that trans woman could never

[Fion3il]

I have a friend who is a trans guy, he is a guy, same as me. Same goes for trans women.

[kyleelyn199723]

@fion3il uh no that’s not how it works, but you are awfully nice for being a good friend and feeding into his fantasy. That doesn’t make what you say true or valid

[Fion3il]

it is how it works though

[ElizaPam]

Wtf are you talking about? We’re not taking anything from you. As a trans woman I go through misogyny on top of dealing with transphobia. You have no idea what I go through.

[ElizaPam]

I don’t support trans women in sports either you don’t have to shot on all of us like we’re one uniform group of people that all believe the same way

[have_a_good_day]

We don't.

it's funny to me when trans women get to compete with regular women they don't moan but when they are told to compete against men then it's all hell that breaks loose.
They want to be a gender on their own so they should compete in a trans category. However, that is not viable because, as you said, there's not enough of them to be able to make it competitive.
So what now?
Make them compete against women and then against men and take the average?

I feel it's not fair to the real genders.

Why, if a girl transes it up and becomes a guy, and competes against men, they fail miserably?
And if you have a male to female trans they often demolish the female competitors?

No.

Either they compete as the sex they were born with or they don't compete at all.
The world should stop trying to bend over backwards in order to try accommodate everyone.

[Phoenix98]

You can't.

Aside from that how is it fair for natural women to complete against men because lets be clear that's what they are they are not women as gender is dictated by your chromosomes which aren't possible to alter.

And on the same note it's not fair for the women in men's sports either.

You still have the same problem you would have if you did mixed sports.

And yes I know that the men lose athletic ability with the body altering hormones and drugs but men are naturally born with 33% more skeletal muscle so even with that decrease they are still going to be above most women in athletic ability.

And likewise women will never reach the pinnacle of athletic ability men have in sports even with drugs because they lack the natural advantages we get when born like the 33% more skeletal muscle on our bodies.

[Notfabricated]

We shouldn't do it. I'm not an expert on this but genetically males and females are different. Someone born a man should not be allowed in a sport that focuses on physical traits off the human body. Not to say there are very strong women out there who could pin a guy in a second but the odds are slim due to the fact most women choose not to have such a build and thumbs up to the ones that do. But a man identifying as a women and dominating in a sport because of his innate abilities I feel isn't cool.

[ElizaPam]

I’m trans and idgaf myself back when I transitioned we knew better than to even consider it.

trans women in sports need the consent everyone they’re playing against. We shouldn’t want to upset people and make them even more uncomfortable

[SupremeWarlord]

No they shouldn't need consent from every single athlete, in an ideal world, yes, but ultimately the decision is up to the committee of people organizing the competition, I don't think it's possible to satisfy every single athlete, and a lot of them are simply ignorant on the matter.

[ElizaPam]

I just don’t know why a trans person would want to make people uncomfortable and angry. It’s not fun or happy. Maybe these people get a thrill out of knowing that they’re pissing cis people off and making them more prejudiced against all of us, I don't know

[SupremeWarlord]

Maybe they are being the ones receiving injustice, who knows?

[kyleelyn199723]

Respect this response 100% . Thank you so much 🙌🏻

[kyleelyn199723]

@SupremeWarlord are you really arguing against an actual trans woman’s opinion? Who the hell are you?

[SupremeWarlord]

@kyleelyn199723 Yes, trans people are not right by default, they're people just like me, and I have a right to disagree with them, or are you telling me that I should shut up just because of my genitals?

[kyleelyn199723]

@SupremeWarlord oh here you go talking about genitals when you are the one speaking on women genitals. Fuck you

[Anonymous]

Like one comedian ones sad we should create separate league for people with enhancements, like transgender ( they have more then bone size, read up on it or start talking full story) in women sports and/ or people on performance enhancing drugs, like steroids...
For example we could have:
Olympics
Paralympics
and Enhanced Olympics ( name is work in progress) - where you can use any drugs, be transgender in women or men sports or even chop all of your limbs and screw in jet engines instead.

[NYCQuestions1976]

Once you start to generate testosterone, your body benefits greatly from the lasting effects... even with hormone therapy and testosterone blockers. I'm not sure what the final solution is, but I do know that it's biologically and scientifically unfair to allow transgender women to complete against biological women. It will ruin women's sports.

[harmseygracelu]

Put them with their original gender. Whatever be trans, but you've also got to understand that you're biologically not what you wanna be. Trans women can't go up against real women because that's entirely unfair and it's complicated to make a new division.

[Jenom]

"How?" you ask? The answer is simple, we don't. You cannot modify biology and you cannot request to be labelled as a female or male because of how you "feel". If this shit is condoned then any UFC or Boxing champion male should be allowed to say he is now a female and fight biological females to win their titles.

[Daviddd5412]

I could care less if transmen play sports with other men. I don't even care if women play in men's sports. If they have the talent then I don't see anything wrong with them competing.

As for women's sports, well, that's not really up to me to decide. It's up to women.

[Oram52]

Unless we can ensure it would not provide unfair advantage, we should not include transgender people in sports. Good example of it was in weightlifting. They allowed transgender folk to compete but she broke all records. Resulting in weightlifting association banning transgender athletes again and stripping all her records.

[SupremeWarlord]

This is a sad outcome for transgender people.

[Oram52]

But what about those who are at an unfair disadvantage? ie practically all female competitors apart from transgender participants?

[MudRucker]

Have there own category.


Why is it the subject only concerns male to female atheletes.

Are there no female to male atheletes who want to compete on the boys team? If not, why not? Because the male body actual gives a competitive advantage in most sports.

[SupremeWarlord]

"Are there no female to male atheletes who want to compete on the boys team? If not, why not?"

There are: www.quora.com/Are-there-any-trans-men-formerly-woman-athletes-that-are-dominating-in-mens-sports

[red_knight]

Transolympics.
Like Paralympics.. or theyll have to join either mens team or women's but I foresee many issues with this..

Theyll say they were discriminated against or something to justify failure other than the lack of training and posture.

Key is to have an even with equal rights and conditions. Which will cost a bomb.

[SupremeWarlord]

Yeah that's a possible solution.

I just disagree because there would be few participants, therefore no fun.

[red_knight]

That too

[Anonymous]

I would say no. They take body altering hormones and that isn't fair to women who train without any body transforming hormones or drugs. I wish they could still participate but maybe start a Trans league or something.

[rosemilk]

Perfect answer

[SupremeWarlord]

All of them end up with significant losses on performance, and can even lose a lot.

But now, I understand that there's a blurry line there regarding doping, cis women are forbidden to inject any hormones on them, trans women are REQUIRED to do so (duh), and that makes things messier, I understand.

[Anonymous]

Unpopular opinion.. They shouldn't be included.. They chose to mutilate their bodies, they chose the path they are on. They still have advantages of greater bone density and muscle mass over biological women.. So no trannies should not compete with women.

[Anonymous]

It's pretty simple actually. Sports categories are determined by biological SEX--not by GENDER. So if a trans woman (which is gender = female; but biological sex = male) wants to compete she's welcome to. But she'll be competing in the men's division because that's what her biological sex is.

[SupremeWarlord]

Okay but did you read about the cases I said in my post? They are exception who are hard to tell the biological sex.

[Opinion Owner]

Also pretty simple, really. If a person has any Y chromosome, for the purposes of sports categorization, they compete in the male division. If they have no Y chromosome they compete in the female division. So your case would have to compete with the boys.

[SupremeWarlord]

But she was a woman, she didn't even know she had XY chromosome, and she didn't have a penis and male testosterone levels, she was NOT a man.

[Opinion Owner]

Her GENDER is female. I don't disagree with that. But it turns out that NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT GENDER. Sometimes what we focus on is BIOLOGICAL SEX. Sports is one of those times. It doesn't matter what she thinks, it matters what biological reality is.

[SupremeWarlord]

What about XX male syndrome:https://en. wikipedia. org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

These men have phenotypically male characteristics, high testosterone etc. They would wipe the floor with women in women's sports, should they compete against them simply because of the chromosome?

[SupremeWarlord]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

[Opinion Owner]

It would probably make sense to classify them as male for the purposes of sports competition.

[SupremeWarlord]

Exactly, the same applies to Maria José Martínez (the XY woman), she didn't have any advantage against women, if you put her against men, she wouldn't stand a chance against them, it's unfair to her in my opinion.

[Opinion Owner]

So this is where we disagree. The point isn't to give every human the chance to be competitive at the Olympics. The point is to ensure that you don't destroy women's sports. Otherwise we just make one class for everyone and the best men in the world will destroy everyone in most sports. On the women's side I think the best way to go is to use objective criteria that are specified in advance. That's why gender wouldn't figure at all especially to the extent that gender is whatever someone wants to self declare on a given day. So I'd start with a chromosome test (anyone with a Y is automatically removed) and then determine what other edge cases need to be removed (could be the one you mentioned, could be XXX groupings, etc.). As long as the criteria are objective and clear in advance I think we're all good.

And you'll know if you screwed up because as you say you'll notice small groups of people who are able to destroy the field. Basically what will happen to all of women's sports if you make it about gender instead of sex and allow any dude to claim he's a chick and enter the competition.

[SupremeWarlord]

Okay then, yeah it's a complicated thing, I just don't think your solution is the right one, since we excluded a normal woman who could compete just fine against the others.

But of course not every man claiming to be a woman will participate, I know it's something complicated, it's just that transgender athletes deserve some discussion, especially now where the Olympics are happening.

[Opinion Owner]

Yeah--again, I'm not so sure that they do anymore so than that we're not bending over backwards to find a way for me to be competitive in the Olympics. I think the Diversity and Inclusion people have lost track of what things like the Olympics (and frankly MOST things for that matter) are about. They are not primarily exercises in inclusion. Quite the opposite--at their core they are exercises in extreme exclusion and excellence above all else. To the extent that we have rules, those rules are NOT designed to include more people--they're designed to ensure fair competition amongst the elite athletes. Primarily that comes down to no drugs, but to the extent that we want to have women's sports and not just men's sports it also requires that we define what a woman is. And again, the intent of the definition is NOT to be inclusive or to find a home where everyone can have a shot at winning.

[more_than_a_guy]

You are missing a big thing here, mate. Current testosterone level is not the only factor for advantage. As long they had male puberty, they benefit from more muscle fiber, densier bones, larger heart and lungs, higher VO2 max etc... Those things will probably won't change after transition.

[Open2It]

MHO: Trans people certainly don't belong in regular sports as their trans classifications because of obvious advantages. If they want to be included, either they compete in their biological classes or create a trans league. Otherwise, it's asking women to compete against men.

[Tommyy12]

We don't. Trans women should NOT compete in woman's sports. They have a huge advantage biologically speaking and it's unfair to women. A mediocre transwoman will perform at the level of elite female athletes. No one should support this.

[Dalisay]

Not complicated. Biological males go with men. Biological females with women. Anything else is an exercise in stupidity.

[FunkyMonkee]

I don't really have a problem with it but, I suppose they SHOULD have their own category.
How do we feel about F - M transgenders competing in men''s sports? Nobody seems to be talking about that.