Why Businesses Should Be For Single Payer System, Agree?

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

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Ah facts, they are a wonderful thing. Even if you're the most die hard conservative, all about pro business and lowering costs, you should ESPECIALLY be for this. And of course anyone who's for social liberalism (or just a liberal in general) should be for it for the benefits of the people.

So why don't we have this? The health insurance companies. It would be less profitable for them. And, of course, our sh*tty politicians who take the bribes from the health insurance companies and keep things in the crappy status quo.

So, are you for it? Do you agree we need this system? Or do you have no idea what this system entails?

I'm for it

I'm against it (explain)

I don't know what it is

Other

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[Settingemstraight]

Against it. The thing about me being an independent is this.

Republicans are dogmatic

Democrats are optimistic to the point of foolishness.

Yes in theory single-payer sounds great. But the problem is that the government in addition to being slow and wasteful is completely nay Hilariously incompetent. They can't even count the votes in Florida for f***s sake. You want them in charge of you health insurance?

Also just as a personal not. I don't believe health care is a right. I'm healthy. I eat well and work out. I haven't seen any doctor except my Dentist and Eye doctor in 6 years.

I don't want to be forced to pay for obese morons and people who smoke. I don't want to pay for abortions or contraception, I don't want to pay for other people's acne meds or viagra I don't want to pay for a liposuction or nose job.

That's the bottom line for me. I don't want to pay for nonsense and I don't trust the government an inch

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

You realize even in Single-Payer countries the taxes DON'T go to most of those things right? Cause most of it is for purely vanity reasons.

And that's great for you, but how about those born with some genetic problem? Gonna not provide them any help? Pretty damn selfish dood. Honestly, why don't people understand the idea of a Social Contract?

[Settingemstraight]

I'll help them sure. But through charity. Because that's closer to the problem than the government could ever hope to be. It will have less waste and will encourage them to overcome their disability rather than feed it

It doesn't matter how much goes to those practices. Any is too much in this case

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

You do realize most charities that a great deal of money donated doesn't actually get seen or is used to help the people directly too right? They do help, but it'd be better if you just gave the people the money directly.

[kereru]

the big point you're missing is that matters of health is a collective issue of humanity whether you acknowledge this or not. Yes, you could argue all you want about whether it's a "right" or a "privilege" but the fact remains,

if everyone has access to a comprehensive healthcare program, then everyone is healthier and the whole population wins, "socialized" medicine is what has eradicated diseases like smallpox and is why we don't have polio cripples in the western world

[kereru]

you can be morally high and mighty about it but the reality is if you deny half the population a vital flu shot or a proper treatment of illness you're going to suffer too when illness rises,

[Settingemstraight]

That's probably true Kereru. What you don't see is that none of that matters.

The question really is. if you've earned something do you have the right to spend it as you see fit? THe answer is yes. If some people do something stupid and buy cable t.v. instead of health insurance to bad for them. If it hurts me in the end that's fine too. because I'd rather be free than to have things optimized/

@QA We can agree that where money and humans cross there will be waste. But do you honestly suggest

[Settingemstraight]

that a grassroots charity organization has more waste fraud and outright nonsense than the Federal Government?

THe bottom line again is. Yes in theory single pay is the most efficient system. But the government does not execute well. Putting them in charge of you health is not a healthy decision.

Look at Medicare or SS. It's broken. It's a mess.

WOuld you trust an insurance company with the habits of our government? I wouldn't.

SO why are you trying to force people to.

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

Percentage-wise? I'd bet that most charity organizations (especially religious ones) have as much waste or fraud as any government. It's something we, the people, need to attack them and be vigilant about.

But in actual total money? Eh, Government does have more, but they also tend to get a ton more money (cause of taxes) than a charity does. But there's a reason there are even taxes and governments. Because there are things people MUST pay into to better society. Things like education.

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

Things like roads, like public transportation (so people can even get to jobs), things like the military so we can be defended from any foreign threats, or police to defend from internal threats, things like FEMA to help with disasters that are often so large they are greater than only one person (or even state) can handle. There are definitely things Government shouldn't be involved with, obviously, but when it comes to social programs? Government kinda has to be involved because the idea of

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

Government, especially OUR government (as our Founding Fathers set it up) is that they were beholden to the people for the best interests of the people, all the people. Not just a few rich, not a few organizations who give them money. And that's where things are going to sh*t. That's why the #1 thing we should do is get campaign funding change. If a corporation or Union wants to donate, they should only be allowed to donate to a public pot that is equally divided among the candidates or

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

something to that effect. I'd rather not leave things as they are now where they can essentially buy off politicians who then pass laws that aren't in the interest of the people, but in the interest of the corporations who give them bribes.

[Settingemstraight]

But we aren't talking about a road or public transit or the military or Fema. We're talking about something that the private sector can and does do better than the Government can

To the charity issue. You can pick your own charities. You can find the local ones that don't waste much. The difference is choice. You can choose any charity the government FORCES you to contribute and does the job badly

What you say about charity fraud is true of the big ones. but the for the small the religious ones

[Settingemstraight]

are generaly the best. Streamlined and they believe in what they do

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

Does the private sector really do it better? Because look at say, our own government employees (elected and not). They are given GOVERNMENT run health care. Guess what? It's often better than the average person. And does it cost more? No, actually it doesn't. And you realize the single payer system it isn't even the government running health care, it's still going to PRIVATE companies, but they are the ones who buy it for everyone and they negotiate for a lower price. It's still very much

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

the private sector doing the actual management of the healthcare provided to the people. Now, you could argue "but the government still chooses" and that's true, but you really think you have much of a choice now? Most states and laws have it so that health insurance and health care companies are monopolies in areas. It's really not good at all currently. And why is that? Cause, again, health corporations corrupted the government employees to pass those laws. Cause it was in their best interest.

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

Btw, I'd really not argue that companies can ALWAYS do it better. Companies ALSO have a vast bureaucracy and management bullsh*t they go through. That's why a lot of customer service can really suck for one. Cause they can't really provide service, they have to go through bureaucracy as well before they can get any real approval for things. Any large organization will have this problem. Not just governments.

[Settingemstraight]

The government's purpose is not to give people goodies, it's purpose is to preserve order, protect the environment, and prevent obviously criminal activities (murder, rape etc.)

There job is not to subsidize favored businesses or to involve themselves in picking winners and losers in the economy. Their job is to set the rules of the economy (no stealing, no trusts etc.) and them leave people alone to screw up or win on their own dime

People always say "the poor believe the system is rigged the

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

The government isn't giving "goodies" if it had a single payer system for health care. That's helping maintain the health of the people they govern. That is EXACTLY part of their job. The reason they protect the environment is to keep people from getting sick from pollutions. It all ties back to the people. IF some how letting people pollute the environment didn't negatively effect humans, government wouldn't have any right to do it (for example). Or things like order or stopping crime, it all

[Settingemstraight]

rich believe it's fair, it's only because the rich are kept up by the system that keeps the poor down."

Has it ever occurred to you that if you always imagine the "system" is against you you won't try? People that got rich in general didn't game the system, they sat their butts down and WORKED. They earned it cause they worked hard. The "hard working poor" is largely a myth. People today are lazy, they expect to be thanked for showing up to a job they are already PAYED TO PERFORM

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

ties back to the welfare of its people. That's EXACTLY why healthcare is something government has a right to get in. And honestly, do you ignore history? The private industry had no sh*ts to give about the health of their workers. They saw them as easily replaced commodities. That's why there were long ass shifts and no health plans and child labor and other terrible unethical things business did. And only when Unions finally came around and pushed for laws against it all did we finally see

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

real progress. And I'd say we should let the Unions keep doing that, but look at how demonized Unions are in this country. Look at how few Union members are really left. Of the entire working force, only 12% are in Unions. Unions have been beaten down pretty hard in most areas and even then a lot of Unions got screwed up over the years too.

And the system really is in the best interest of the rich. Hell, the only people IN POWER are the rich. And that's a fact.

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

And this blaming of the poor for being poor is entirely illogical. When the government's publicly provided education has been continuously cut in funding for decades now (for more tax cuts for the rich or more money towards wasted spending like our bloated military or other things like an overpaid, underworked congress) of course the rich start having even more advantage. Being born into wealth for even better schools cause they get the proper funding to educate people.

[Settingemstraight]

cheep health care is a goodie. It's not a right. It's something you should pay for yourself. Being unhealthy doesn't hurt anyone but yourself, so it's none of the Gov's business, Pollution is something that you can do that hurts other people and they didn't get a say in what you did.

Also hello Unions? Yes unions did that, Not the government, That's the beauty of a free market. YOu don't like your boss? Strike, BOO-YAH as long as the GOV keeps things peaceful you win. That's a union not the GOV

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

And that's ONLY looking at education as an example. Look at the health as well, the rich live, on average, 8-10 years LONGER than the poor and middle class. The rich tend to have better health and better quality of life, not cause of their material goods, but because they have more vacation time (yes, they really do) cause they can afford it and Humans NEED the relaxation part to be truly efficient. They need relation as well as the work. But if all they do is work and stress, they are

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

less effective.

And no, health care is NOT a goodie. It's not a "want" or "desire" it is a requirement to life. Why? Because you need that health care to live if you get sick and pull through it.

And wow, you are VERY narrowminded if you think someone getting sick ONLY hurts yourself and not others around you. VERY narrowminded. Even if you ignored the emotional pain it can cause your loved ones, it hurts your work. Time away from work cause you are sick hurts productivity. Are you really

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

THIS shortsighted?

And Unions pushed for the laws, but who enforces those laws that protect the people? It's not the Unions, it's the government.

[Settingemstraight]

The reason the unions are in decline is because they've abused their power and their members, And people are rejecting that. Congress is a mess I agree with you on that

And yes Companies have Bureaucracy and bad CS. but I have yet to have a better CS experience with the GOV, just visit your local DMV if you disagree.

the private sector isn't perfect, but it has the incentive to grow and prune the bad parts yes it's slow but the government is even worse.

I'm nuking the site from orbit I'm done

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

Btw, read this article

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I don't agree with it entirely, but read it ALL and actually think on it and don't just read a snippet and go "liberal propaganda" or some bs.

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

And I knew that the DMV would come up, EVERYONE mentions the DMV when it comes to "look at how bad Government is." But I'll bet you don't know a damn thing about the workings of the DMV or how many people they get coming in on a regular basis or anything really about it. It's not nearly as bad as you think and, yes, it has gotten way better over the years. Surely you going there must know. Hell, you can call and make an appointment and be in and out in no time. Just like a business.

[Settingemstraight]

Emotional pain is not a governmental concern. Neither is life. Yes life is not a life in the sense that the Government should not have to do everything in their power to preserve you. THe right to life means nobody can TAKE your life. It doesn't mean I have to keep you alive if you're to stupid to purchase your own bloody insurance

Before you say SOME PEOPLE CAN"T AFFORD IT

My parents had health insurance. and they were dirt poor. they made about $400 a month between four jobs. They made it work

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

So then if you get sick and can't afford it, guess you'll die and not want any help right? I'll bet any amount of money if you got so sick and had no coverage, you'd be begging for government aid. Just like every other right winger out there.

And so if a disease begins spreading through the entire population of a country, government has no right to get involved in the care eh? Your idea of government just sucks. In fact, your mindset would lead to the extinction of our species. Do you even know

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

WHY we are the top of the food chain and masters of this planet? Because we got by a great deal with aiding each other. No one got anywhere in this world entirely by themselves. Working together as a community has ALWAYS been what made us truly strong and bettered each other. And the government's job was always to protect the community and help it continue to improve. To assure an environment is there for growth. By keeping them from providing aid to the sick cause you're a greedy selfish f***

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

is to keep them from doing their job and honestly you're breaking your own Social Contract with the society you're in. So if you wanna be like that, then please, get the f*** outta society. Go live entirely on your own without aid of ANYONE else and see how well you do.

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

As for your parents, I'll bet you money the way they made it work was either getting help from your extended family or they got aid from the government and you were unaware of it. There is NO way you could afford to even have a house on 400 bucks a month as well as food for 3 people (assuming parent, mother and you). You're entirely outta touch with reality if you think they did it on their own at 400 bucks a month.

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

And, actually, if they REALLY made only 400 bucks a month (and from four jobs, how little did they work or how were they even legally allowed to be paid so poorly?) then they WERE getting aid from the government. It's built into the god damn tax code already that they'd have gotten help. So ya, you're either full of sh*t or vastly ignorant.

[Settingemstraight]

I read it. I also read "Gov doesn not equal less freedom" and "forgotten achievements"

First, Most of the "achievements" were actually horrendous mistakes.

The "less freedom" one, The example they give is nonsense. How can a government be oppressive without money to fund it's secret police? how can it have that level of cash without high taxes?

Now to the one you linked

First many of the things he says are just plain untrue. and the study that he notes for "approval rating" has be discredited

[Settingemstraight]

First. My parents did not accept any government assistance and... you know what never mind.

I'm tired of this.

Read Give me a Break by John Stossel, and Freakanomics by Steven Levit

[moaterboat]

Haven't you noticed that whenever the government starts providing something, the market gets all wonky and super-expensive? The government wants everyone to have a home, so they make loans available to almost everyone Guess what that causes. Housing bubble! The government wants everyone to have a college degree. And where does that get us? Astronomical student debts and degree inflation. What do you think is going to happen if the government starts trying to make sure that everyone gets great healthcare?

I don't know how these simple, completely obvious trend is missed by you and so many others. It's like Reagan said, "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government, and I'm here to help'"

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

Are people really THIS silly about Government? Why aren't you just an anarchist? And you blame way too much on government which has been due more towards corporate f*** ups and interference with Government. Honestly, as soon as corporations got even more ridiculously involved in Government, the country started going to Hell (see the 70s where it ramped up big time).

[moaterboat]

It's not silly if you actually have had to deal with government incompetence and see how rotten the entire institution is at its core. I'm not an anarchist because I believe a government is necessary, and provides necessary services. I also believe that all problems should be handled at the lowest level possible, because that increases efficiency. You and I have different ideas of when the country started going to hell. I think it started after the Great Depression.

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

So what CAN government do? Just military? Why can they do military? Are you going to give the Bill O'Reilly "tradition" response? Cause that's silly. Especially since our government didn't have a traditional military until WWI (and really after WWII). Why can't they do anything else?

[Yeahhbro]

you are absolutely wrong about everything you said.

1) The reason for the housing bubble, was because the lack of regulation of the credit market. So banks were giving loans to everybody without actually evaluating people's credit life properly. So people that couldn't paid were getting easy loans.

2) The high tuition costs are because the high administrative costs and the burocracy in a lot of colleges.

[moaterboat]

@QA

Federal govt should, of course, handle the military, because national defense is best handled at the federal level. Even a cursory study of military history shows that this is the case. The federal government should also handle building roads, a postal service, encourage and fund the advancement of arts and sciences, regulate commerce (when it improves the situation) and protect the lives, freedoms, and properties of its citizens, especially minorities.

[moaterboat]

@Yeahbro

I'm not wrong, I am right, and a lot smarter than you, so please don't try and be condescending because it just makes you look like an idiot.

A big part of the housing bubble was cause by the fed dropping interest rates to crazy-low values and affordable housing laws that encouraged banks to make risky loans. Yes there are lots of causes, and deregulation is part of it, but here is the the issue, whether they are regulating or deregulating, the government is doing nothing but messing

[moaterboat]

things up. That's what they do. As for high tuition costs, you can plainly see a link between tuition costs and the amount of government aid for students. Tuition costs are not skyrocketing because administration costs are skyrocketing. Rather, there is more government money available, so colleges charge more, then invest that extra money into administration because it is the administrators who make such decisions.

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

Fed did play a part with the interest rates, that's true. But it was also a great deal with wall street and banks doing poor loans. And many of them would then take those toxic mortgages, sell them to others, and then BET on them to fail. It was really... greedy and underhanded.

[Settingemstraight]

first. Bro you can't spell.

Second. It's the banks fault to find out if people can afford their loans? What? since when. That's like saying a casino should find out if you can afford to gamble before they let you in.

It's the consumers duty to ummm not buy stuff if they don't have any money

[Yeahhbro]

ok now I know what it means and the reason is because insurance and drug companies won't allow it, as it would destroy their systems...mainly insurance and private healthcare companies.

[TheGodEmperorLeto]

Ya, it would hurt their profits greatly, but it certainly wouldn't destroy them. And the benefits for every OTHER industry on the planet as well as the society are so great.

[Yeahhbro]

I think you should expand on what you mean by a single payer system.

[nancyjune561]

I'm for it