Can society do a better job at defining what is and what is not creepy with hetero male behavior?

[Anonymous]

I am talking about flirty (yet risky) behavior NOT criminal sexual behavior. Obviously we all know that sexual assault is wrong and should rightfully be punished. But this is just about the typical struggles and guesswork men have to deal while interacting with women.

When it comes to a man being “creepy” or not the only true standard women seem to use is whether they find a man attractive or not. Yes there are some standards like weight, age, height, facial structure, athleticism that factor into a man’s attractiveness or lack thereof.

However a lot of women act mysterious on this. When I was younger I met women who I thought were “out of my league” who thought I was cute. Then there were women who I had zero doubt would find me attractive but didn’t.

But as a man it’s almost ALWAYS up to us to make the first move. If we make a move and she doesn’t find us attractive then we are “creepy” or worse. If we don’t make a move despite her thinking we are attractive then we are shy and/or underconfident (which in itself is very unattractive).

Personally I am so f*cking fed up with women expecting men to be “confident” when they hypocritically want the power to label any guy they don’t like “creepy”. It’s a much deeper insult than they realize.

Updates

+1 y

I want to acknowledge that true creeps do exist. I once saw a middle aged man get caught using a peephole into a woman’s bathroom in a club in NYC. That was disgusting and he should get jail time for that crap. Men and women should both condemn him because of his explicit actions.

But men use that creep phrase for when it’s appropriate and justified. We use it when we get angry at a moron who makes the rest of us look bad. Women seem to overuse it to express a “feeling”.

[MCheetah]

It's all arbitrary and a giant Sh*t Test from angry feminist women, to control men's behavior. In short, stop giving a f*ck what people consider "creepy" from men. You know how many dipsh*ts on the interne try to label me an "incel" because I don't simp or kiss women's asses? Ironically, I'm still a romantic at heart.

These people are losers and they'll always exist. I'm well aware that sometime they try to make it a big deal and try to get law enforcement involved. "He said hello to me, so that's sexual harassment! Arrest him, officer!" But if you don't touch anyone and it's not at your job, they can't do anything but try to shame you and make you submit to them.

A real man doesn't become obedient by the threat of empty words from some feminist cunt. People's words should mean nothing to you. Unless it's at work and will cost you your job (not that you should be flirting with people at work anyway; don't sh*t where you eat), stop caring what these people think. THAT'S the solution! Make the first move anyway, and if all she can do is find you "creepy" and call you an incel for no reason, then just give her a polite "Well f*ck you, b*tch. Goodbye" and continue along your way.

Everyone knows I'm far from attractive, or tall. And I've had women do this to me countless times, back when I were still looking to date. But like I said, all you gotta remember is that a b*tch is a b*tch and they're not reflective on who YOU are, as a person. Don't let other people control who you are or what your identity is. You'll KNOW if really being a "creep" or not.

[HighlyVolatile]

I've actually never been called a creep once in my life in spite of flirting with women left and right back when I was single, and I'm not very good-looking and only 173cm. I don't know what the rules are to avoid being called that but I would echo some of @ez-bri-z's suggestions.

One thing I see is that some men seem to interpret "confident" as being bold, so they might approach women trying to act like a badass while making moves on her before even having a proper conversation with her. I think that's a very weak strategy.

Instead, I recommend an interpretation of "confident" as being the most comfortable and natural person in the room. If you have that down, not only will you tend to be very comfortable and relaxed around people, but you will also make them very comfortable talking to you (and this applies to both men and women). You do that well and many more will not only entertain a conversation with you when you talk to them but far more will also initiate conversations with you including women.

And I think that's the real key much more than looks. I really think a guy can even look like Jonah Hill and still flirt with women and avoid being called a creep provided he makes those women feel very comfortable around him. Meanwhile even a very good-looking guy who makes women uncomfortable can be called a creep (I've seen it happen many times).

[Asker]

I've been called a creep behind my back in the workplace.

[HighlyVolatile]

If it's behind the back some of those women might just be nasty. I don't know enough to tell. But I think at least the key to mitigating it if you can't avoid it completely is to try to carry yourself in a way that makes everyone very comfortable around you. If you're very comfortable, and they're very comfortable, I think you can generally avoid that.

[Asker]

@highlyvolatile that’s a good point. I was very un comfortable at that job for several reasons. However I just get sick of the double standards.

[Subarugirl]

If she avoids eye contact don't approach and DO NOT stare.
Never approach a women when she is alone in a place like a parking lot or where no one else is around.
If she is not interested, says she is not interested or says she has a boy friend leave her alone.
Do not ask her out at her place of work.
Don't ask her out at the gym.
Read her body language, it's not difficult to see if you are making someone uncomfortable.
Put the ball in her court, don't ask for her for her number, give her yours.
Develop report before coming on to her.
Make your intention clear but don't come on too aggressively.

[Asker]

You know what @subarugirl I actually agree with some of those points above. When I was younger I made some of those mistakes but I certainly don’t now. But it’s also ironic that back then I could get away with all sorts of crap since I was babyfaced and “cute”. Now that I am older I can’t even get away with a fraction of what I used to say or do.

But there are many borderline moments particularly when it comes to “staring”. As you already know I have very strong intuition for this. Many consider “staring” as when a man glances for an extra moment. If he stands there transfixed that’s one thing. But quite another if he gives an extra glance. If he doesn’t do anything else you have no right to call him “a creep”.

Also there are situation when the guy did NOTHING wrong but a girl just doesn’t like the guys appearance and/or personality and yet they use the word “creep”. I had this happen in the workplace twice. In both situations there were more women then men at my job. THAT was very wrong. That is when I was wrongly called a “creep” by one cunt in the group. It can impact the an entire women’s opinion of me. That is why I got a grudge about this. It wasn’t some one off incident at a bar or club years ago.

[Djaay]

Men... This here is toxic feminity. Creepy AF.

[Asker]

@Djaay actually her opinion wasn’t as bad as some the others I’ve seen. Some of the things she said above are common sense. I don’t approach women when they are alone in parking lots. I also don’t approach them in gyms unless I see them more and the once. If I do approach I make it a quick hello and don’t spend too much time interrupting her workout. There was girl I got to know at my local gym and she always smiled when I said hello to her. When I found out she had a boyfriend I didn’t pursue it any further.

Anyway most guys know better in those scenarios above. But I am talking about much more gray areas. Like a guy saying hello to a girl at a coffee shop and she doesn’t find him attractive. Also people DO find significant others through work. That’s tough.

Also if a guy screws up but apologizes (and does nothing else) women need to be more forgiving. However many enjoy clinging on to a mishap because it gives them a self fulfilling prophecy they are “victims” and oppressed.

Anyway Ez Bri had the worst response to this in my opinion.

[Subarugirl]

@Djaay Fell free to elaborate because I am pretty sure that if a man did those things to you that would make you just as uncomfortable.

[Subarugirl]

@asker Of course it would be different for you as you get older, older people are held to a higher standard of conduct.

There is a big difference between a glance and staring, if someone is staring it's weird regardless of gender.

Unfortunately people label other people, and it happens all the time based off of what they look like, how they act, what they say and what they wear. It happens to both men and women, like this is a good example of someone calling me toxic and creepy because I have standards and boundaries when it comes to how I treat other and expect to be treated by others in public.

[Asker]

@subarugirl I can count the times on one hand since HS/College I have heard a man unfairly label a woman a “slut” or “whore”. Back in HS I heard it all the time. However as I got older and society has changed I have very rarely if ever heard a man unfairly label a woman this.

However on the flip side MORE woman are using the word “creep” nowadays. It is NOT okay to use that phrase just to reflect “how you feel” which is subjective. It does objective damage to people. Its a unchecked double standard that too many women abuse. If you want a more “equal” society you need to recognize that.

You do have the ability to take a step back and carefully think and analyze a situation vs blurting out the first thought that crosses your head. If you are saying women can’t do that then you are literally admitting women aren’t equal to men. Men usually have more self control to not throw out unfair labels.

[Djaay]

First of all , regarding all your mentions... Not one of the above mentioned is of a biological sense concernnig men and women together. Women just do not run the world of men as they wish that they had the power to chastize mens positions and just simply take over. The matter of Toxic masculinity is an appropriation of Toxic feminitity which gave birth to toxic masculinity. Whats (creepy) is a woman becoming toxic in her feminitity and shows nothing more than her own disregard for human biology and her distainment of rebellion towards whats right naturally. And as far as (real) men are concered , a woman should NEVER approach him for any other reason outside of natural biological fortitude.

[Asker]

@Djaay she’s not going to listen to you bro. I have never had an actual productive conversation with her. I am actually trying to on this one but you will have better luck telling the wind to stop blowing then you will have convincing her to look at things from our POV. She lives in society that rewards and empowers women for being conceited, unfairly judgmental and selfish.

Personally I have tried to owning up to some of my mishaps being a guy. Usually if someone admits fault it’s a sign they are trying to figure out WHAT is right vs. BEING right. But from what seen time and time again with feminists is they don’t give a shit about the very real issues men face. They don’t care to find out. They see everything as a zero sum game.

[TransAm85]

I agree w/you to an extent. Sadly, a lot of women today focus on material wealth/status of a guy before even getting to know him.

[Asker]

Thanks. Truth is I have grown very tiresome of these stupid ass gender wars. I realize that there are both bad and good women out there.

But from my observations society has enabled the bad ones to indulge in shitty behavior with no consequence. Men on the other hand are generally getting called out more for bad behavior. But the colateral damage is unacceptable.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Like a checklist of what each of us find creepy and which we don't? Impossible, but here are some really good suggestions.

Get really good at reading body language.

Get even better at accepting a no for an answer.

Realize that for every one of you types that might actually be legit, there are like 4 others who have already primed us for being on guard for being hit on.

Stop projecting your daydreams, expectations and fantasies on to us. We are individuals, not a hive mind.

Finally, we owe you nothing. You aren't entitled to our time just as we aren't entitled to yours.

[Asker]

I have done all you requested since I was a teenager. But the “get better at reading body language” sounds like “get better at reading my mind”. If I actually had that capability I could have a sweet gig in Las Vegas performing as a mentalist.

Bottom line is women have a distinct role in this too. I do realize it’s tough at times. You are worried about how the guy might react. But that’s usually overblown paranoia used an excuse to be non-confrontational. It is possible to communicate directly yet politely about how you feel. Most men will listen and if they persist then be all means bring out the “creep” shame card.
I have met a minority of women who did this effectively and respected their wishes. They were capable of analyzing a situation for exactly what it is vs. what it “feels” like to them

Anyway think twice about using the word “creepy”. It’s justifiably used to describe actual actions vs. relative “feelings” which do objective damage.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

You don't need to be a mentalist or read people's minds to read body language. If you are as practiced as you said then you'd have a much easier time even knowing when to approach.

Does a woman have a closed body position? Probably don't bother approaching. It's not too hard to figure out.

[Asker]

But who is expected to approach? I totally agree true creeps out there exist. But that doesn’t give women any more justification to label any man they don’t like a “creep” than it is okay for a man to call any woman he doesn’t like a “slut” or “whore”.

Back in HS it was common for boys to unfairly label girls those phrases. But since college I can count the times on one hand I’ve heard a man pass unfair judgment just because he doesn’t like a certain woman. But women seem to be stuck in perpetual adolescence when it comes to taking cheap shots at people. I would think at some point people would grow up and analyze facts of a situation vs. just indulging in the first negative thought that crosses her mind and believing that to be the truth.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I think your perspective is tainted by being on that side because from this side it's the opposite. A lot of those boys never grow up and keep that same mentality about women. You can see it alive and well on these boards in fact. There are lots of judgments by guys calling women sluts and whores or the one that drives me up the wall "low value women" if these women have the audacity to have sex. These same men want to punish women for having sex by forcing them to carry children to teach them a lesson those men never have to learn. Then they blame women for being greedy by expecting money to help care for those children. Its an impossible fight.

[Asker]

There are lots of judgments by guys calling women sluts and whores or the one that drives me up the wall "low value women"

As I mentioned earlier I remember guys back in HS/college saying that. But after age 24 and when I got in the workplace and post grad I almost never heard guys label women that. It’s a combination of men maturing and our society condemning men who unfairly label women that.

However I’ve seen women get generally worse about unfairly labeling men. There is less self control to think twice about blurting out something nasty. Like it’s “empowering” or some bullshit.

Also as admitted earlier there are situations where that label is justified based on a man’s specific actions. I once saw a man get caught using a peephole at a club to stare into the women’s bathroom. I more than agree that guy absolutely was a creep.

However that phrase gets overused and abused too often by women who just don’t like a guy despite him doing nothing wrong. That bs needs to end. It’s explicit sexism.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I think we may have to agree that our situations and experiences don't match up. As I said, going off this site alone, I see WAY more insults towards promiscuous women than I do seeing men being called creeps.

[Asker]

Actually you might have a point there. My experiences have been very different then yours. Personally I just want true fairness.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

As do I, my friend.

I think we can both agree that nobody should be insulting anyone else regardless of gender.

[Asker]

I’ve just gone through bad experiences as a grown adult in the workplace. If the roles were reversed guys would of been getting fired and there would of probably been a anti discrimination lawsuit. Anyway. Best of luck out there. Let’s seek to understand before being understood.

[Djaay]

These check list mentions are what i say towards women too. Got cha.

[Pohjolan]

Creepy is subjective not objective.
Some languages don't even have that word.

In short: No.

[Asker]

It’s subjective but it’s all too often abused and does objective damage There needs to a fine line on what’s really “creepy” vs what isn’t.

[maverick2022]

Welcome to the hypocrisy that is the female gender. You are totally right, any unwanted advance by a man can be labeled a creep because guys are expected to read their minds. In some cases even a man that's just being nice and not making an advance gets called a creep. It's all because the word has no real definition. It's a completely subjective opinion that girls use as an objective truth. There is only one rational gender.

[monorprise]

We either need to redefine the word "creepy" as a personal opinion or many women need to stop miss-using it to reflect their personal opinion.

[byrdman89]

I wondered about this for a long time and finally came up with an answer the answer is whether or not they like you - if you flirt with them and they like you Yay! - if you flirt with them and they don't like you - creepy!
Even if everything else was the same

[rachel_marie]

I totally can understand that struggle, but as you've already noticed, women have to be on guard because of the creeps that do exist out there. I wouldn't take it personally. Maybe just ask yourself before making a move, "if this person is scared I might be a creep, would my pick up line scare her off?"

[Asker]

This happened to me in the workplace once do i did take it personally. Very personally. I didn’t even do anything to the cunt who was saying this crap behind my back either.

The thing is I very rarely hear grown men label women “sluts” and “whores” nowadays just because they don’t like them. I did hear that back in HS and occasionally in college. But almost never as a grown adult and definitely not in the workplace.

[Sonorous]

They'd have to do it the redpill/blackpilled way by speaking on each attractiveness tier. But most people are bluepilled so that's not going to happen.

[Djaay]

Hetro good behavior is described in the Bible. Bad hetro behaviour is voiced by women who lolve evil and hate men or want to at least. This is your difference.

[FýrdracaDócincel]

If they tried, they wouldn't be able to say anything. They'd have nothing.. because it would force them to realize that creepiness is subjective

[boggboss]

For me pretty much making the first contact with a girl is fine until she shows she is uncomftble or not intrested then anything after that makes him a creep

[moviedude714]

I believe it's possible and they should and it kind of makes me mad that it's pretty much the male gender that gets labeled or thrown the creepy label, but I figured it should make sense or obvious as to why it's like that unfortunately

[SkipPerk]

Men are just as bad. There are two sets of rules, one for attractive people and one for the others

[Asker]

Young men can be just as bad. But there comes a point when I think twice labeling a girl a “slut” or “whore” just because I don’t like her. In fact the word “slut” has seemed to fade from western vernacular. I hear that much less than I did 20 years ago. But the word “creep” actually got more widely used.

[Iron_Man]

Men flirt so they can have dates and get the girl interested what’s creepy about that everyone does it As long as it’s clean flirting

[Anonymous]

Women simply need to be less triggered by everything.

[Gwenhwyfar]

Confident is good. Creepy is bad.

[Asker]

And that’s subjective to woman’s opinion and mood.

[jahaims]

No because those are subjective

[pibe10]

No, creepiness is very subjective