Rigid Masculine Gender Role Adherence & The Connection to Violence and Hostility Against Women (Page 2)
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To understand the legitimacy of your argument i'd have to research your many references and their respective legitimacy. However at least some of it is understood, even to a layman.
It is warming that you note that there are different kinds of men. It is very common that a writer groups all males as one for their hit piece which makes for an exhausting and pointless read.
It's likely we can find examples of the males you describe. Famous or not, young or old.
I find myself speculating if you'd be as willing and able to describe your own sex in similar terms, deconstruct their motivations, find references to legitimise their errant behaviours, statistics that demonstrate how often women are violent and abusive.
It is not to excuse bad male behaviour of which there are many examples (and many prisons ) , nor to suggest it's balanced. But it is a two way street. And we hear plenty one side but not the other.
Thank you for recognizing the distinction of this being about one type of men, not all men.
I have begun researching domestic violence perpetrated by women on men.
I have been on the receiving end of this in the past , which was instant dismissal for her !! If a man did involve the police... HE will be arrested , assumed to be the aggressor , not her.
1. That was a really disgusting thing to say. I'm sure their intent was to make a rhetorical point regarding public policy, but the way they went about it was WAY outside the bounds of propriety and decency. And to send it as a private message? That is just completely uncalled for. He should be ashamed.
2. "In a study sample of unmarried heterosexual men, Abbey, Parkhill, BeShears, Clinton-Sherrod, and Zawacki (2006) nearly 25% of participants reportedly perpetrated at least one act of attempted or completed rape.". ? 25%? That is VERY disturbing!!!
He wrote it in a public comment here - a reply to a political question I answered.
Yep, that 25% is very disturbing, you are right.
Okay. Well, public or private, it was still wrong.
I feel bad for people like that guy. I really do.
Can you imagine the miserable, depraved life he must "live" to want others to be violently abused for any reason?
But more importantly, I hope you are safe and well. Your power and sophistication may be a curse as it relates to situations like this, but it is a blessing to me to see how wonderfully you sidestepped the bastard. Inspiring and powerful.
I don't feel bad about people like this at all. They have no right for their behaviour nor do they offer any real constructive behaviour in society.
@Dansnlawlipop i'm glad they're people like you realize that. No i am not justifying their actions also because it is affecting anyone. They just feel like they're just going to be punished anyway so there's no point being a good guy anymore until they start committing suicide because that is how society often treat masculinity.
Thank you, Dansnlawlipop. I really appreciate that. 💛
@Aiko_E_Lara "They are going to be punished anyway" Punished for what and in what way?
"No point ion being a good guy anymore" why not?
"until they start committing suicide" why would they commit suicide?
Yes and i've talked about that over a million times and you're still playing ignorance.
if you want the answer than you can dig deep to the old arguments we had?
@Aiko_E_Lara or you can answer here.
@ThisIsMyOpinion Or you could fathom what I said before.
@AmandaYVR There is nothing I can say but I'm sorry that you even had to deal with it. I'm sure you are a strong woman but I have to say that no woman should be threatened with rape.
During my brief time here on G@G I have seen personally three male users telling female users they should be raped. That is a method of intimidation or silencing that I haven't witnessed used against other male users personally. And I would notice trust me. But to those who deny it ever happening because they didn't see it. I say have some empathy and don't support it by denial. At least reject the behavior. That's to say the least
And, this is why I encourage my female friends to enroll martial arts classes. I'm very lucky to be experienced with street fights and have achieved 1st dan black belt in Taekwondo, as my dad always told me when I was a kid that I should be careful of rapists.
Cool i was in Taekwondo. 😎
Interesting. I only have one point. You used a lot of orphaned statistics (1 in 4 women... as an example) these figures are propagandistic in nature as opposed to something like 1 in 4 women experience while only 1 in 10 men... Without the other side of the argument it can be assumed that the other half of the ratio can be anything. I understand that your rightfully upset. But I felt that you'd appreciate the feedback. Peace.
Fair enough, point taken.
This is not an article about rape in general. It is an article about the root of some/one aspect of male hostility. I will leave it to others to discuss violence from other angles.
I get it. People suck
I saw a tweet with ss from tiktok where a girl joked that women should stop giving birth and end mankind... The replies on dat tiktok scared the fuck out of me, stuff like:
' you dont have a choice'
'we can make you'
'we can just rape you'
'rape is an option' etc
Wow. That is really, really disturbing.
The girl was obvious that it was a joke, right? Not hostile?
As far as I could tell from the pics she wasn't serious ( I removed tiktok so didn't see the video)
Even if she was serious those guys had no right to respond in that way.
This is not about masculinity but really about social status and maturity. Essentially people who are much lower status than their perceived status expect people to treat them better than they receive and resort to any strategy to force others to maintain the status they think they deserve including resorting to controlling and abusive behavior, emotionally clingy, jealous and dishonesty and even resort to violence. In fact there is such a thing as insecure women and surprise they act exactly same as insecure men. Insecure people: needy, abusive, controlling, dishonest, jealous.
Good point. We teach people “men or women” to treat us well in a way that we think we deserve. If I learned which then grew into a self belief “undeserving “then that is the way others will learn to treat me. If I
Have you read Josette Sona's books, too? It sounds like you might have. I loved them (and your MyTake) but I don't think some men will like either.
Sometimes the truth hurts. But it needs to be said. Well said! Thank you. :)
No, never heard of her. You recommend them, eh?
Thanks for your support 💛
What I have noticed is that women respond to on-line insults and threats a lot differently then men. Women definitely take them more seriously and are way more likely to expect some sort of action to be done about it. They usually seek the powers-that-be to rectify it in one way or another.
Men don't take them nearly as seriously, at least not in terms of safety. As far as I know, they don't feel the need to make special posts about it. If anything, they respond with comebacks that are as nasty or more. They rarely do more than alert someone else that men get insulted and threatened as well.
Yeah that seems a fair statement and true.
But there are many reasons for that, not just one, right. Men have a sense of pride about standing up for themselves, not being intimidated, showing strength, etc etc; it's built into male culture. So to go to the authorities or whomever, makes it seem like they are not tough enough to handle it; not so for females, right.
Then there's the level of harassment which females get, both sexually and with lack of respect professionally, and men going hard against/to females, because they think they are not a worthy adversary, they will cave and not fight back. Man to man is more challenging. Girls retreat, avoiding conflict more often.
So I'm not really sure what your point is. Is it that men are harassed equal to the level females receive, but men just don't gripe about it?
It's not wrong for females to want to be left in peace, not attacked, and to have a goal of social harmony.
My point was actually just an observation. Women insult men as often as men insult women, but it seems that mens' responses are likely to be vilified more. Sexual harassment against men is barely spoken of despite the fact that most men have dealt with it several times in their lives. As a bouncer for seventeen years I've lost track of how many women (drunk or sober) that have felt me up, tried to kiss me if they didn't successfully slip it in, played with my hair (which I kept long) or wouldn't leave me alone even after telling them multiple times to do so. Men just don't make a deal about it. For women sexual harassment is a travesty, however for men it's just Tuesday. And lack of respect goes both ways as well.
Sure, a woman coming up with something especially vile about men may grow some legs and get called out by society, but in the end it'll likely be considered 'less deplorable' than a man saying something similar about women. Like that thing with Trump - 'grabbing women by the p***y' had lots of women up-in-arms, yet women advocating 'grabbing men by the balls' (which I've heard way more than the former, mentioned even leisurely) for whatever reason gets announced without the blink of an eye.
"It's not wrong for females to want to be left in peace, not attacked, and to have a goal of social harmony." The same goes for men, but when attacked by women, some aren't gonna take it kindly, especially if men don't bother retorting and then some women feel the need to follow up with 'so, nuthin' to say to that, eh?'. Poking the bear and all that.
No woman ever deserves to be degraded in any fashion. Any man who does that is not a man at all. This would only be a demon trying to gain favorance of his master and should be returned to such. Not sure why any thing would feel this is okay, ever! Wonder how would it feel if it was done to them or their family? The only exceptance would be into hell, garrenteed!
I'm all about empowered women, and I like to think that most men would step in to "resolve" the types of abuse you mention.
Yet I feel you've lumped me in with those types of men.
"Yet I feel you've lumped me in with those types of men."
Why do you feel that way?
The 'tone' of the question as a whole seems like a blanket accusation towards men in general, that's all.
It is not.
As I said, "Other Men, Take Note: This is not directed towards you, the vast majority of good, decent, sane, level-headed, reasonable, and sometimes great men of the world, and of G@G. Nowhere in this will you see "all men..." or make any such broad-based generalizations or dismissive caricatures that demean all men. I assure you, I have the ability to distinguish between good and bad, and many people in between. However, there are some men, certain men, who act consistently and unnecessarily hostile, angry, aggressive, antagonistic, and who threaten or wish acts of violence like rape upon us, and it is them that this is about:"
Most, or many, men do not "step in to "resolve" the types of abuse you mention."
Those who do attempt, online, are unceremoniously demoralized as "white knights."
Billy Bush cackled along with Trump when he spoke of his right to "grab pussy."
There are many examples, but I'll give you another concrete one that hits close to him for me.
My best girl friend came to visit me. She lives in a neighbouring city to me, and as it is her first property, the most she could afford is essentially in the highest crime rate city. We had a great time together, as usual, and we didn't want it to end, and so it wasn't until just shy of 1am that she left for home. She has to use public transit. Both buses and subways. It's a 1 hr journey home.
Shortly after sitting down in the train, a man approached her. He was acting erratic, nonsensical, angry at times. Then he brought out a knife. A large 9" "fishing knife" out of his jacket. He unsheathed it. Then began waving it around, while standing close in front of her.
She's a smart girl, and she kept her calm as best she could. She kept eye contact with him, attempting to be warm but firm, as he would not go away, and she could not tell what he might do.
There were four men on the train. None of them did anything. Three out of four made no eye contact at all, didn't appear to look in their direction at all, while sitting in the same car. One was looking up, intermittently.
None of them did anything, until suddenly there was a stop, and then the erratic man unexpectedly jumped out to the platform. The fourth man got out and approached him. My friend could not hear what was said, but as the train drove away, they were talking about something. She wished she could have known what he said to him. She also wished that she had felt more supported, less ignored, by the men all in the train. I'm not saying that anyone should take a bullet, or a knife wound, on behalf of someone else, but I am saying that many men are silent when a woman is being threatened.
I did read your disclaimer, I misread the tone of it as if it applied to me even knowing that it didn't, hard to explain. I appreciate the additional points you made.
The part about white knights really struck me. The online version of the white knight and the real life version couldn't possibly be any more opposite from each other. I think. The online white knight typically is the caterpillar that hasn't yet morphed into the fully grown incel, and many girls seem blind to it, a lot of men see right through it and just shake our heads. Anything we could possibly type to 'out' him would give females the wrong impression - hence your comments on the white knight hate.
cont.
Any one of those guys on the train that would have stood up and put himself between the girl and the nutcase, well that's a real life white knight - someone who stands up for people when they need it. EVERYONE both male and female should do this in every situation. Violent crime would nearly vanish overnight.. wouldn't that be something? But yeah, more men need to be white knights in the real world. I couldn't possibly agree more.
I made a terrible mistake once. I was walking through a parking lot with a friend, and about 50 yards away from us was a gas station in the same lot, but looked closed up. A girl/woman started screaming for help from the other side of it, but we couldn't see anything. I started to run in their direction, and turned to check my friend and he just stood there - the girl was still screaming for help. I was like "we gotta go help her", and he replied that nope, nothing going on over there was worth losing his life over, and he just turned and started walking. I was 18 and he was 24, I looked up to him, so I got conflicted and froze. The girl had stopped yelling for help, but I don't know if that was a good or bad thing. I ended up following my friend. I regretted it ever since and vowed never again. That took a piece of my soul that day, and I never knew the outcome, there was nothing in the papers in following days. Even now, decades later, I still feel like shit about it. That was just a bad decision I can't take back, but I can make damn sure I learned from it. If I were on that train, your friend would have been kept safe.
(maybe) stupid follow-up question- why wouldn't you take a screenshot of the horrible message and out the guy to the community? That would fix his clock!
Meh. Never occurred to me.
I did report the comment. But the site gets thousands/day so after about a day or so I sent them a direct message about it and they removed it right away, so I'm good with that. His account is still up but I'm sure he got a warning. And I've blocked him now.
That message you received is incredible (sick) and is indicative of someone who may want to rape other women.
I disagree however that there is such a thing as "rigid gender role adherence" as there are many women now in typically "male" roles (i. e. police, jailers, firefighters, sports, arborists, horticulture, paramedics).
As for violence and hostility, I would say that depends on the person (subjective) as I have spoke to and been stopped by female officers who were very stern and authoritarian. Those officers are not butch in appearance either, they are attractive women who don't shy away from confrontation.
Rigid gender role adherence does exist. It just doesn't exist pervasively (in every part of all societies.) We see it more in some cultures (usually the older ones), and on an individual level, where there is a lot of freedom of choice.
In collective cultures (Muslim countries) it may be more prevalent, but in individual cultures (most of Europe, N. A.) the situation is much different by in large.
I agree with that.
But in North America, we are a fairly diverse population, made up of many immigrants from other nations, and so even in this developed, fairly progressive society, we have a mixed bag.
Anyway, you get the gist. It's neither all nor nothing.
My mytake is about SOME males who feel stress as a result of their rigid gender adherence. This is not a blanket statement about all men. Not even close.
Well I would say that rigid gender adherence is not the cause, but a personalization of the role they have. For instance, I began laying rugby because I was interested in all the skills needed to become a successful player. There were other players on the other hand that cared for making the "big hits" and were very aggressive and profane. We are all apart of the same sport, but we represent it in our minds differently.
First off, what a cruel thing to say to a woman.
You bring up some interesting thoughts so thank you for the MyTake.
While I don't agree with all of it, I'll just leave you with this; "May you be so strong that you never have to use it.
Just the very message you are responding to pissed me off and if I were a woman, I'd want that fucker dead. Scumbags like that deserve no respect, no credit, no mercy and no forgiveness (all they deserve is some "fun time" in prison with Bubba). You are a strong woman for resisting.
Sick and pathetic excuse for a human. Scum of the earth. I'm so repulsed right now by that peice of filth.
Great mytake. Thank you for sharing your research and your well spoken opinion thoughts.
Ok, I get what you are saying, but a couple of things. The study you are referring to appears to have been made in Detroit. Detroit is one of the most dangerous cities in the United States. Second thing their statistics for verbal coercion (which they list separately) include things that cannot by any serious person be considered sexual assault. They are claiming that if a man cries to get sex or threatens to break up with a girl if she does not have sex with him it is verbal coercion. Everyone does things they don't really want to do for the sake of pleasing others. The guy should not have said you deserve to be raped, but I think you should try to recognize the value of police. That being said, what you said is true and more needs to be done about sexual assault.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4484268/
Ok, yes, that one study takes place from a sampling in Detroit. I agree with what you said there.
But here, there are 6 studies referenced:
"1. Hegemonic masculine gender role norms have been linked to men's physical and sexual aggression against women (Copenhaver et al., 2000; Eisler et al., 2000; Franchina et al., 2001; Jakupcak et al., 2002; Moore et al., 2008; O'Neil et al., 1986)"
Regarding "The guy should not have said you deserve to be raped, but I think you should try to recognize the value of police."
You are taking what the GAG male user said at face value. Which you should not do, not knowing the details of the exchange - i. e. trusting him. But I don't want to get into all that because the details really don't matter at all. I answered a political question and he replied to my comment, and for no justifiable reason, he verbally attacked me personally like that. The details are moot, however I will just say that I do believe in police, I am not all against them, I have had ok contact with them, while much negative contact with criminals/being the victim of crimes. What he was mad about is that I was criticizing the behaviour of the police offer. He simply did not agree with that.
This is how some men are online. They feel it is their right, of free speech, etc., to say whatever they please, to anyone. And I stand strongly against that.
Please understand I don't support what that guy said at all. You are right I do not know the situation in which the guy said that to you. I apologize for making too many assumptions. Down here in the US things are kind of tense with calls for the defunding of the police.
Yeah, I've been seeing that. If you're interested, I can pm you a link to an in-depth news segment on analyzing what defunding the police is all about. It was great. I'm not going to post that here, though, because I don't want this to turn into an even more heated debate. Politics is nasty enough as is (and what prompted this rape thing to be said to me.)
I lived in Los Angeles for 15 years up until fairly recently so I've been living American politics all my life. Canada is calmer, for sure, but we have a lot of American news, etc., (much, much more than the other way around) so we are pretty up on what's going on there. I've turned off the news lately though, what with all the election talk, and then covid. I need a break.
Anyway, don't worry about it. Your comments were very civil.
Peace.
Oooh, I didn't read the text (yet) - but the title is SPOT ON
Male aggression is socially portrayed as the ONLY way to show you are male (as if having the protruding organ between your legs is not proof enough).
I attribute it to Ottomans and Arabs, they are obsessed by proving they are male, dominant etc.
Now, the fact that females then go and expect it - makes it 10x worse.
My proposed solution - tasers allowed for women only, no weapons for me, and it's sorted.
The thing is the it is the WOMEN who should be asking for A LOT MORE protection from violence (in terms of politics). Not for equality, but for protection. That probably gets some men angry (it is usually the muslim women that want equality (to marry 3 or 4 men) - and then the rest suffer because democrats offer it as a blanket solution for all female problems.
Exactly and people say we don't need femenism these days. Honestly.
We don't!!
It's because we actually don't. People are supporting equality that's why they are not feminist. Also you don't realize is that it is also basically the same thing that women whines about men's privilege that it ok for them to do double standards.
Well, I don't even know what to say to you. Thanks for making me lose faith in humanity once again I guess lol
Then that's your choice. We all know that the label itself is more important actual equality. If most people are not feminist then you're just losing faith in humanity. Forget equality then if that's the case.
If you've lost faith in humanity merely because they wouldn't identify with a *POLITICAL* movement that has no relevance in developed countries, then its unlikely you had much faith to begin with. Only 29% of people in America identify as feminists, its even lower in UK.
Feminism is not needed in UK or America maybe in Portugal, I am not fully aware of situation there. In Anglosphere 3rd wave feminism is no longer about equality, and its a political movement now, part of identity politics. Even women are jumping ship.
@Aiko_E_Lara this "We all know that the label itself is more important actual equality." is absolute BS.
Feminism will not solve violence against women. Law enforcement can at least take abusers out of society. Remember that when you vote in November. If you vote for people who want to take resources away from police departments, you are saying women can be abused and have a greater chance of getting away with it. Just remember recent comments from Biden and Harris concerning police funding.
@TyCobb1919 still way better than Trump.
@ILoveAnime You stay strong, girl. Don't let the boys push you around.
You're on the right track. 💐
@AmandaYVR Thank you :) You too <3
Eu já tive várias discussões com o @Aiko_E_Lara. Ele não é totalmente racional.
@ThisIsMyOpinion eu tenho a imperssão que também já falei com ele e ele continua a não ser muito racional, aparentemente.
Para teres uma idea...
Na conversa sobre acreditar ou não em vítimas ele disse que se uma rapariga não ficar grávida então não foi mesmo violada. Não "a sério" pelo menos.
@ThisIsMyOpinion ai meu deus. Estás a gozar certo? Isso não pode ser real. Mas o que raio é que este idiota tem na cabeça?
For the same reason your notion is also bullshit from the start. That's not even an argument
@Aiko_E_Lara oh god dude go to a fucking psychiatrist.
@ILoveAnime queria eu estar a gozar. Sim, é surreal!
Ad hominems at its finest. You need to learn that from psychiatrist.
And i see you're looking for credulous people who tell them you're wrong idea what i am saying. Again i repeat i am saying that chances are she could not be raped if she is not pregnant. I am not saying she is not raped if she is not pregnant but you are the one who is saying that one. @ILoveAnime well it is your choice if you want to believe in anyone. You're not the only one is trying to brainwash actually. I'm pretty sure you won't bother listening to both side of the story
Unlike Amanda said, i would say don't let anyone push you around not just boys. Because i'm well aware that girls also push each other around a lot too. Same advice i give to guys. And you see when feminists gender things, that's when people start making comparisons instead of just being equal to everyone.
@AmandaYVR
Who's pushing her around? Are you saying a feminist advocate for gender equality is incapable to put forth her views in discussion about feminism? So when someone disagrees with you they are pushing you around? or is it simply acknowledging there is nothing coherent substantive argument for dinosaur called feminism which is almost extinct, so the only thing left now would be to play victim?
Since when is having discussion pushing anyone around? Is this not how discussions and debates work?
@Orsm52 exactly but this isn't something like badmouthing nor backstabbing anyone which is exactly what they are doing. An act like that is basically pushing anyone around and they're just being ironic.
@Aiko_E_Lara 23 xD
@ILoveAnime I am counting the amount of times I trigger @Aiko_E_Lara and he has no other way to reply to me besides saying the same thing I did. 23 so far.
@ThisIsMyOpinion you still keeping up with this conversation? At this point I'm just lost haha I gave up on this conversation. Not point in arguing with people that don't want to listen.
" Not point in arguing with people that don't want to listen. "
But that goes both ways, it doesn't simply mean accept my view point, it also means providing actual counter view points. Only 29% of people identify as feminists, it would make no sense to make a statement that feminism is needed but vast majority not even identifying with it.
Listening is two way streak, one can not expect others to simply blindly accept what we say.
@ThisIsMyOpinion But look what you're doing right now. There's really no reason for you to try to provoke anyone. ("Try" is the keyword) by name calling or even bad mouthing anyone. Not to mention the fact that you're trying to put words in my mouth bad mouthing me to someone. Unless you're the one who's actually being hurt yourself. So doing so, yeah you're just being hurt like 23 times now.
@ILoveAnime "ai meu deus. Estás a gozar certo? Isso não pode ser real. Mas o que raio é que este idiota tem na cabeça?" <-- Of course it can't be real. I'll give you the choice to believe anyone or not. After all im not the one bad mouthing anyone here.
@Aiko_E_Lara are you not tho? Check yourself first honey
Just like being credulous, you should be aware of that
Before you start judging anyone that is
@Aiko_E_Lara You said those words yourself don't blame me now.
@ThisIsMyOpinion Im saying it but you're doing it so you can't blame me. Im just addressing what you're doing. What do you call people who always assumes you're triggered? ↗ Now I know what word to describe you.
@Aiko_E_Lara If you said it, then I can blame you.
"Men who espouse a “tough” persona endorse hostile attitudes toward women"? Really? Because I know a lot of touch guys and the vast majority of them treat women like gold, and they would beat the shit out of a guy who mistreated a woman.
Look, it sucks that some asshole on the internet wrote you a shitty message, but that's not a good reason to take your anger out on all masculine guys. These generalizations about masculinity are getting really old.
.