Rigid Masculine Gender Role Adherence & The Connection to Violence and Hostility Against Women

[AmandaYVR]

A message I received today...

"you young lady deserve a thurough raping so you can learn the value of a strong police force. maybe if something bad happens to your family or your vagina you'll understand why law and order is more important than kindness or human life"

Art by: shadowrenegade6785

This is what females deal with on a daily basis. Pieces of **** like this reminding us that there are still, in 2020, plenty of men who feel it is their right, their privilege, maybe even their duty, to inform, explain, and teach what our meagre little female brains are not getting, not understanding about the world, and, we get insulted, attacked, and violence threatened against us, to boot. You thumb thug, you emotionally stunted imbecile, do you feel strong and powerful now? Did you get all your angst out? Do you feel like a big man with a big ****? I am cowering, bowing down in the presence of how manly you are. You're so strong and wise. You are a real man, a man of all men, a man other men should model themselves after. So thank you. Thank you for helping me to see the error of my ways. What ever will I do to repay you? You speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Right?

Well I've got news for you, sorry to disappoint you, but you don't intimidate me, not one bit. All you do is remind me that we women have a long road ahead of us, a long way to go, a lot more to do, to not be demeaned, demoralized, treated like human beings of equal value without the threat of violence or intimidation, or like a vessel in which you may do as you please. "Kindness and human life"... pffft. The nerve of me, to care about the life of a man I never met, to feel sadness and sympathy and sorrow for him. We women, we are so callous. That's why we always vote in favour of equal human rights.

I will never leave the internet because of people like you, I will never bow down to people like you, and you will not silence my voice. We're 51% of the population. Without us there would be no more humans. Like it or not, the future human race needs both of us. We have to share this planet and co-exist, but guess what, we don't have to f*** you. We'll choose the other guys, the real men, the honourable ones that you are not. And you're pissed about that, aren't you? You're masking your rejection with hostility and intimidation, but it's not working, is it? Why does feminism still exist... because of people like you.

You know nothing about me. You know nothing about my "family", my "vagina", what I know, or what I have been through, but I know about you. I read, I research, I listen, I talk, I engage, and I think.

So this, "young man" is dedicated to you...

Other Men, Take Note: This is not directed towards you, the vast majority of good, decent, sane, level-headed, reasonable, and sometimes great men of the world, and of G@G. Nowhere in this will you see "all men..." or make any such broad-based generalizations or dismissive caricatures that demean all men. I assure you, I have the ability to distinguish between good and bad, and many people in between. However, there are some men, certain men, who act consistently and unnecessarily hostile, angry, aggressive, antagonistic, and who threaten or wish acts of violence like rape upon us, and it is them that this is about:

'Thus Always to Tyrants'

Hegemony: Leadership or dominance, especially by one state or social group, over others; The three main features of hegemony are leadership, power and dominance.

So, do you like my picture? How does it feel? Good, right? Someone's got to be on top, right? Law and order. Balance of power. Alpha-beta-omega, and all that shite. Leaders and followers. Doms and subs. Feminism is about power and taking over, taking control, right? 'An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.' Do I believe in all this, abide by this? Go on, take a guess.

A large body of research has taken place identifying determinants of male perpetrated violence against women and developing interventions to reduce it. Despite these efforts, men's use of aggression against women remains prevalent. In a study sample of unmarried heterosexual men, Abbey, Parkhill, BeShears, Clinton-Sherrod, and Zawacki (2006) nearly 25% of participants reportedly perpetrated at least one act of attempted or completed rape. 10% of college men reported that they had physically aggressed against their most recent female dating partner at least once during their relationship (Luthra & Gidycz, 2006). Furthermore, estimates from national samples indicate that over 20% of heterosexual women report being physically assaulted by a husband or male cohabitating partner at some point in their lifetime (Tjaden & Thoennes, 2000). One factor pertinent to male-perpetrated aggression against women is the misogynistic attitudinal set of hostility toward women. A clear link exists between hostility toward women and subsequent aggression toward women.

Rape is a product of men's extreme adherence to a masculine gender role that encourages men to be dominant and “manly” and women to be passive and “feminine” (Murnen, Wright, & Kaluzny, 2002). Indeed, this view has been recognized for decades and is well articulated by Burt's (1980) conclusion that “rape is the logical and psychological extension of a dominant-submissive, competitive, sex role stereotyped culture.” Accordingly, pertinent theory suggests that male-perpetrated aggression against women is, in many cases, a product of socialization pressures to adhere to hegemonic masculinity (O'Neil, Helms, Gable, David, & Wrightsman, 1986). Hegemonic masculinity is a kind of masculinity that promotes male dominance over women (Connell, 2005; Smith & Kimmel, 2005). Specifically, Connell (2005) defines hegemonic masculinity as “the configuration of gender practice which embodies the currently accepted answer to the problem of the legitimacy of patriarchy, which guarantees (or is taken to guarantee) the dominant position of men and the subordination of women.” Prior research has explicitly suggested that the masculine gender role is not monolithic; rather that multiple “masculinities” and dimensions of those masculinities exist. Hence, it is not a unidimensional masculine gender role that is linked to violence, but rather specific types of masculinity.

A growing body of evidence suggests that men who hold traditional beliefs about the male gender role are at risk to experience stress in situations where this role is challenged (Cosenzo, Franchina, Eisler, & Krebs, 2004; Eisler, Franchina, Moore, Honeycutt, & Rhatigan, 2000; Franchina, Eisler, & Moore, 2001; Good et al., 1995). This tendency to experience gender-relevant stress is commonly referred to as masculine gender role stress (MGRS) (Eisler & Skidmore, 1987; Eisler, Skidmore, & Ward, 1988). Masculine gender role stress refers to men's tendency to experience negative psychological (e.g., insecurity, low self-esteem, increased anger) and physiological effects (e.g., increased cardiovascular reactivity and skin conductance) from their attempts to meet societally-based standards of the male role. Men who adhere to hegemonic masculine gender role guidelines expect others (e.g., women) to submit to these roles as well. Not surprisingly, masculine gender role stress has been directly associated with men's aggression against women (Copenhaver, Lash, & Eisler, 2000; Eisler et al., 2000; Franchina et al., 2001; Jakupcak et al., 2002; Moore et al., 2008). Importantly, evidence suggests that masculine gender role stress is a more direct predictor of men's behavior than specific norms of masculine ideologies (Thompson, Pleck, & Ferrera, 1992). As such, it should follow that masculine gender role stress influences or accounts for the relation between pertinent norms of hegemonic masculinity and aggression toward women. Indeed, research has found that endorsement of hegemonic male gender role beliefs predicted aggression against women among men who also reported high levels of masculine gender role stress (Jakupcak et al., 2002).

This data is supported by relevant theories in the violence against women literature. For instance, men who manifest insecure and defensive feelings in their relationships with women may use sexual aggression to regain their sense of power and control (Malamuth, Sockloskie, Koss, & Tanaka, 1991; Malamuth et al., 1995). Accordingly, sexual aggression may act to offset any perceived masculinity threat (e.g., personal inferiority) these men may feel. Similarly, men may develop hostile attitudes toward women and aggress against them as a way to attenuate feelings of personal weakness and uncertainty and, ultimately, to displace their state of stressful discontent (Cowan & Mills, 2004). From this, it is reasonable to contend that masculine gender role stress reflects men's tendency to experience the insecurity, defensiveness, personal weakness, and stressful discontent that may be a central motivation for hostility and aggression toward women.

In other words, when these subgroups of men experience gender-relevant stress, attitudinally “lashing out” toward women may function to manage or reduce this stress. This finding is consistent with pertinent literature indicating that men's hostility and aggression toward women functions to reaffirm their sense of dominance and power (Cowan & Mills, 2004; Malamuth et al., 1991; Malamuth, et al., 1995). Thus, hostility and aggression toward women presumably alleviates feelings (e.g., insecurity, defensiveness, personal weakness, stressful discontent) that are posited to comprise state gender role stress (Cowan & Mills, 2004; Malamuth et al., 1991; Malamuth et al., 1995). It should be noted that all men, regardless of the extent to which they subscribe to different masculinities, may encounter gender-relevant situations and experience gender-relevant stress in these situations. Nevertheless, the present findings suggest that men who subscribe to these norms of hegemonic masculinity are more prone to experience gender role stress, a greater intensity of gender role stress, and to cope with that stress in ways that reassert male dominance over women (e.g., hostile attitudes toward women).

Much progress has been made to foster egalitarian relationships between men and women; consequently, men who still believe in the dominance of the male gender may harbor hostile attitudes toward women because they feel their control over women is declining.

So, The 3 Main Takeaways Are:

1. Hegemonic masculine gender role norms have been linked to men's physical and sexual aggression against women (Copenhaver et al., 2000; Eisler et al., 2000; Franchina et al., 2001; Jakupcak et al., 2002; Moore et al., 2008; O'Neil et al., 1986)

2. Stress men feel when they encounter violations of the traditional male role contributes to the development of hostile and domineering attitudes toward women (Malamuth et al., 1995).

3. Men who espouse a “tough” persona endorse hostile attitudes toward women, and hostile attitudes toward other men, for that matter, regardless of their sensitivity to gender-relevant threats.

In layman's terms - they're acting hostile because they feel weak and inferior.

Ronda Rousey, MMA Fighter Champion

[ttnnkkrr]

this has nothing to do with masculinity except to define what is not. anyone that uses fear or intimidation or some manner of degredation to attempt to... no it doesn't matter what they think they are doing. this is a manifestation of psychological abhorrence. there's no need to even dignify it with a reaction.

masculinity is living in service of wellbeing of family and community. accepting risk of adverse conditions in front of those he serves. selflessly and without expectaion of reward. a sense of duty.

anything outside of this is not only not masculine but as it pertains to male genders indicates emotional adolescence.

[AmandaYVR]

I am not personally particularly interested in the whole concept of masculinity (or femininity, all that much either.)
What does anger me is some men blaming women for the 'de-masculizing of men', or using idiotic phrases like 'toxic masculinity', neither of which I subscribe to.
So if you and I take the word 'masculinity' out of this as an overarching word, and instead relabel it as, as you suggested, 'psychological abhorrence', I would actually be fine with that.
I did not come up with this theory. Dozens and dozens of experts in the field did. To me, the most interesting takeaway, which I would like people to know and consider, is that at the root, "In layman's terms - they're acting hostile because they feel weak and inferior." So call that what you will; if it doesn't have the word masculinity tied to it, fine with me, honestly.

I think you made fair points and I thank you for your contribution.

[ttnnkkrr]

what i loved was the objective and objectively layered data driven journey you walked through. i am far too lazy for all of that 😜. and yes a sense of inferiority does drive emotionally adolecent males to do some really mean things. what is further illustrated and frankly true is the very brittle state of these males. that said males of all stages are in truth quite emotionally vulnerable. our fathers are supposed to demonstrate emotional durability not absense of emotion. so many males instead of learning the distinction instead try to pretend we are un feeling rather tgan actually develop healthy coping mechanisms and a support system.. assuming we had a father at all.
what i find interesting is the all but vacated concept of social rituals around becoming an adult. rights of passage. about taking ownership and responsibility and being capable of understanding the lack of value in assigning blame. blame is nearly always an act of self sabotage. it rebukes free will, dismisses the power to make new choices and allows us to absolve ourselves of the effort in personal growth.
anyway, there are so many mindless rants suppoeting spoonfed narratives in this and other forums. very few can do what you have done and accept responsibility as tge reciever for what you do next and instead of applying blame choose to understand and self embark the journey of personal growth. even more rare is compiling this growth for others. thank you for once i am a little better off for something on tge internet

[AmandaYVR]

Beautifully said. You are quite the writer.
I especially liked the, "our fathers are supposed to demonstrate emotional durability not absense of emotion. so many males instead of learning the distinction instead try to pretend we are unfeeling rather than actually develop healthy coping mechanisms and a support system..."

"blame is nearly always an act of self sabotage. it rebukes free will, dismisses the power to make new choices and allows us to absolve ourselves of the effort in personal growth."
Interesting. I had not heard this. I will definitely be thinking about this more.

And thank you. Much appreciated.

[ttnnkkrr]

i study people. its not that i am somehow well read or educated. but it's very fun to observe behaviors test and observe hypothisis. when i was in college i often had issue withthe concept that is forcefed of only being allowed to have opinions and thoughts to express if a citation exists. it concedes critical thinking and trains parrots. finding published material is useful but being limited only to oppinions or thinking only when supported by them is dangerous.

[AmandaYVR]

Agreed!

[G3tAClue]

I’ve received multiple “get raped” messages on here as well by trolling angry men who have nothing better to do. They are sad, you are not. Remember that you are the better person for not saying such childish things.

[AmandaYVR]

I'm going to paste your other comment here for you, G3. It is also worth highlighting.

"See this is the problem. These threats and horrible interacts happen very regularly on the internet but many guys don’t take what me and @AmandaYVR seriously. Look it up dude, it’s a real problem and is only becoming bigger and more serious. Just because it doesn’t happen to you doesn’t mean anything.

I did an experiment and made a blue account on here to see just how differently guys talk to me, and the difference is ASTOUNDING. Coming from the blue accounts that regularly threaten women, instead, I got instant respect and was taken seriously for everything I said even though it was the same shit I was saying as a pink account."

[kespethdude]

I think these scumbags should be named and shamed.

[Unit1]

They are most likely hating women. Biological failures. If i were a pink, i wouldn't hesitate to block half of GAG or half of internet users in general if i received such disrespect even just once.

[Goodwifie]

"I hope you get gang raped and murdered"
Was un opinion that a guy left on one of my questions.

[G3tAClue]

Damn, that’s messed up. Well, remember that they are cowering in the dark behind their computer screen. I bet you that their life is mostly spent on the internet bullying women they can’t have. The best thing you can do is act like it doesn’t bother you... but every once in a while, I like to bully them back.

[bluetoblack99]

As long as you didn’t troll them first no man should ever say something like that @g3taclue. I can count the times on one hand I have ever said something like that. But in every single instance the woman was attacking me first with unprovoked heinous insults. These were for more serious questions I’ve asked on here too. But never in my life have even thought of saying that to a woman unprovoked.

[Regmorus]

Thank you. This convinced me ultimately (together with some other evidence collected in the latter time) that the male aggression that is directed exactly and explicitly against women is a real thing. (not only in some muslimic countries)

I feel really sorry for you for having received such message. I can't imagine how one feels when something like this happens.

I think that different men show different reactions when they feel like their traditional role as man or their masculinity itself is endagered. And the reaction some particular individuals show is determined by who they are. Supposedly being threatened in masculinity being therefore a mere trigger that lets them show their true face.

However due to biological entitlement of being physically stronger gender men on average show readiness to be aggressive and to feel like they have a special privilege, or in other words: to be socially and emotionally underdeveloped human individuals, that resemble animals too much.

When social and psychological constructs crumble that are believed to be traditionally established, their animalistic nature and mind shows up.

This by no means being a plaidoyer to justify their behaviour "because it seems to be rooted in nature", but a mere contribution of possibly relevant ideas about the topic and an accusation of to-some-part-animals who yet have to learn to be human and weren't yet able to even get the idea that they have to learn it.

Being man - in this aspect of necessary self-restraint and self-control - comes with more responsibility than being woman , that's not a secret, and to have this responsibility and act accordingly is just an intrinsic obligation of each of the men, who otherwise - because of being weaklings in mind and spirit - do not deserve to be called men however masculine they are deemed or deem themselves.

Men are strong not because and not when they can exert this strength to control, dominate, overpower others, but because and when they can do it primarily WITH THEMSELVES to be help, protection and light for others.

[AmandaYVR]

Beautifully said.



Wish I could give another MHO here.

[Regmorus]

Thank you.

[Regmorus]

I appreciate it. By the way if it be meant as allusion to those times and that attitude of mine, I didn't know myself often what I was talking back then.

I do respect you and do feel respect.

Otherwise please kindly regard my conjecture that it could be an allusion as a fruit of overthinking.

[AmandaYVR]

Oh, I apologize, I see now how that could be construed.
No, I read what you wrote and thought it was very good, and it really didn't need any further dialogue or exploration, so the word that came to mind was simply "respect." And when I went to go look for a fitting image online, I came across this one, and I liked the shaking hands (which I would like to imagine as two races, two sexes, two ideologies, etc.)
It was not actually a subliminal, or direct, message to you as I now see it could appear.
I do think you are punchy, Regmorus. I've seen it quite a few times with others. But I do believe you respect me and I've never taken offence to anything I've read from you. I just have sometimes thought you can be... somewhat demanding. I have chalked it up to intelligence, and maybe a little dash of impatience or frustration with the less driven and intellectually curious. Is that fair?
Anyway, we're fine. Sorry for the confusion. I really liked what you wrote, and I thought it was some of your best writing here. (Sometimes the translations don't come through perfectly smoothly. But you are an asset to the site, because you can think.)

[Regmorus]

Absolutely no need to apologize. Actually it would have been fine in either case, I hope my message didn't suggest otherwise. I think your characterization is completely fair, though it's difficult to me to judge objectively for obvious reasons. Glad, we are fine:)

[xJeremyx]

I wouldn't completely attribute the prevalence of violence against women to men not having avenues to vent stress of masculinity or bottled up emotions. Because any good man will know, being a man isn't about being strong and unbreakable or the best at everything (what masculinity sometimes entails), but its about being human, accepting thatyou aren't the only person in the world with an opinion, nor is your opinion always the best. Its okay to be outperformed or outreasoned by a woman. We need to give credit where credit is due.

Unfortunately masculinity is something that is engrained in men since young. Personally i am also a victim of this. We are taught that we should always outperform women. But extreme misinterpretations of this already flawed idea of what it means to be a man results in a few black sheep thinking its ok to do anything you want to a woman, because she is supposed to be 'inferior' to you, and if she outdoes you, you have no right to have a set of balls.

It boils down to essentially how men are brought up from young. Im sure that any boy who is taught the importance of being open minded, that everyone regardless of gender, is human and should be treated the same as you would want yourself to be treated, wouldn't be the ones perpetrating sexual violence based of difference in ideology or opinion. Even more so, they would know the importance of keeping an open mind which would make them much less prone to violence when someone contradicts their ideas or beliefs.

So in all being a man is to be human. Same as what being a woman would mean. Always respect others. Nobody is superior to anyone else. You have no right to hate someone for their opinion unless its downright morally wrong. You have no right, as a man, to threaten others because you think you are superior. On the flip side, being a man doesn't mean not showing emotion or weakness. It is to make sure you know that you need help, and to ask for it whenever you need it. Being a man who knows his limits is much more attractive than someone who tries to be invincible. Being a man isn't about venting your anger on women. It is about knowing how to properly release it. To all the black sheep out there who are guilty of this, shame on you.

@writer I am sorry some stupid dude had to ruin your day for you.

[AmandaYVR]

This is wonderful, Jeremy.
I'm so happy that young men like you exist in the world. You have a beautiful voice. Please do what you can to help shape the future. You are the future. If everyone thought like you, we would have a pleasant, harmonious society.

[xJeremyx]

Thank you.

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

“rape is the logical and psychological extension of a dominant-submissive, competitive, sex role stereotyped culture.”

I'm not sure about this claim (although I haven't dug into the primary literature on which it's predicated, so call it "conjecture" on my part if you will.)

There's really nothing "logical" about rape, even if the culture it emerges from is fundamentally a consequence of competition and emergent hierarchies.

Competition is not a "male trait" strictly speaking, it's a HUMAN trait, and men just happen to compete in more explicit avenues. For instance, the tendency of men to prefer hard contact sports, and women to prefer soft contact or no contact sports.

Nothing about that is indicative of a logical explanation for rapists to excuse their behavior. "but society made me this competitive dominance-seeking male", like, no motherfucker, YOU chose this. Even serial killers are well documented in blaming "society" for "making them what they are". But society never put a gun to Ted Bundy's head telling him to rape and murder a load of innocent women. Society never told the Unabomber to go on a killing spree, although reading his memoirs would suggest society is to blame and that he's a people's hero. Elliot Rodgers was convinced society was to blame for him not being able to get a girlfriend (while overlooking his creepy, "future school shooter" -like personality as the true cause of rejection).

I'm weary of researchers in modern social sciences, because many of them are following a deconstructionist victim narrative that blames "society" and so-called "patriarchy" for everything bad under the sun. In reality, rapists are among the first in line to get shanked up in the general prison populace. The only "prison class" more reviled is pedophiles. Imagine that: the most criminal segment of the population who arguably have the MOST "toxic masculinity" STILL draw the line at sexual violence, to the point they would risk more prison time just to put a rapist in his place. The general law-abiding male population is even LESS tolerant of rapists. The real problem is that our legal system no longer acts as an effective detterant. If more rapists were punished more often, and more SEVERELY, then rapes would go way down. Rape used to get the death penalty I believe. Nowadays a rape victim would be lucky of their rapist got even a 4 year sentence, and possibly less what with "good behavior" and court appeals etc. Society's failure in the face of sexual violence lies at the feet of a de-fanged legal system that harms victims more than perpetrators.

[Aakash_Hangargi]

Well explained👍👏👏👏👏👉💯😎

[kemo56]

What the hell is wrong with people anymore

That is sick and disgusting and could only have been written or sent by someone that was sick

I might not agree with your politics but I think you have the right to voice them and I think the difference we have if we can find a middle ground makes us stronger

I'm glad you are taking a stand on not leaving me personally if you look at what I've said I'm a conservative but I tried to look at both sides kind of like empathizing trying to understand the other person's point of view and then if I take that in my point of view can I find a common ground to possibly suggest it and if you agree then all of a sudden we just moved closer to the middle and I think we're stronger for it

It's hard for me to wrap my mind around aborting a child though at the same time I can understand the concept. Of a woman's choice but I think you're they made that choice earlier then there wouldn't be an infant remove from the world

And I think that's an issue where I try to see both sides though I don't really see much of a middle ground on that one

Demonstrating expressing a problem is great

rioting and destroying stuff is not right and everyone knows that

I hated what that cop did and I think you should be punished for it I can see the police department's concentrating more on training there is way too many people of any color better shot and they don't have a gun and it is my understanding and belief that special forces don't like near that many mistakes but they train constantly

I think a choke-hold can be used to keep from hurting someone actually if it is used properly to knock someone out an Alaska state trooper training they choke each other out and they learn the proper technique to render a person helpless without hurting them but once a person is secured there is no need to harm them we are all humans we're all capable of losing our tempers I think one of the big things the police need to look at if having their brothers back it is my opinion did for them to have their brothers back means when their fellow police officer loses their temper AR is doing something wrong they stop it because they care about that police officer and don't want them to do something they would later regret AR that they're doing something that the police officer not committing the infraction AR crime did not fit in to the oath that he swore to

I am far to body cams on the front and one on the rear of officer and if more than one of the front cameras goes off they're off duty go back to the office and I think body cams are good far the officer and the people he comes into contact with

I am against no-knock warrants there might be cases situations that they may be necessary but I think it should go through maybe a grand jury

[hellionthesagereborn]

Nope. Men are harassed more often then women online, are more sexually harassed in the military, women are more likely to be physically violent in relationships compared to men etc. etc. etc. Also you will note that most serial killers were abused by their mothers, most violent criminals come from single mother homes in both cases they do not get any kind of real male role model. So how does one try to suggest that rigid masculine gender roles (which you have no idea what they even are) are to blame for men being evil pieces of shit (lets ignore all the women who are, I mean you and society and the law do, and just focus on how evil men are because one guy was an asshole. Seems reasonable) YET the worse men in the world are men who were raised WITHOUT rigid masculine gender roles and were raised by women that for the most part were feminizing the men?

When are we going to talk about the connection of rigid feminine gender roles and its connection to domestic violence (which women perpetrate 70% of the time (verified by the CDC/NCVS, harvard and multiple studies that have found lesbian couples have the most violence and sexual assault and homosexual couples have the least), emotional abuse (which women are more likely to use along with manipulation within relationships), and the twisting of boys into criminals (as 80% of all inmates come from single mother homes)?

Oh wait, we can't do that because that would require women to get their heads out of their asses, see men as human beings, acknowledge reality (like how men are keeping you alive every moment of your life (producing the food, houses, electricity, your clothing, jewelry, all technological developments, policing the steets, protecting you with military etc. etc. etc.), and actually be held accountable for once their lives.

So we got a long fucking time before we start calling this shit out because if their are two things women utterly despise its personal accountability and seeing men as something other then an object to be used and discarded.

[ThisIsMyOpinion]

Guys are insulted online more often because there are more guys online, they get insulted by other guys and those insults are like noob. Girls get sexual invitations. Very different.
Guy get more sexually harassed in the army again more guys in the military and guys do all the harassing.
Women are not more likely to be violent in relationships compared to men that part is a lie. Go check your facts.

Most serial killers had single mothers, yes. Most children raised by single mothers are not serial killers.

You talk like no women was ever arrested for raping a man or like every men that gets accused is put in jail or has his life ruined. Injustices do happen but they are not just for one side.

Women don't see men like that. You know how angry you sound? Do you had a good mother? Any good women in your life?

[kespethdude]

Where's your evidence? Yes, harassment against males does happen sometimes, but not as common as you think.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@ThisIsMyOpinion Nope. They are more likely to get death threats and women insult and belittle men on line all the time (what world are you living in? They literally say that masculinity is inherently toxic and wrong on the god damn news, online etc. So to act as if women don't insult men is just, well, white knighting or your just completely oblivious to reality. I mean honestly, do you even believe in equality, because right now your trying to suggest that women are innocent victims and men are always the ones in the wrong when in reality that couldn't be further from the truth.).

[hellionthesagereborn]

@kespethdude My evidence is literally the statistical data? Why would you presume otherwise? Just because you refuse to acknowledge that it happens doesn't mean it doesn't happen, it just means your ignoring the truth of the matter because your socially conditioned (and to an extent biologically wired) to cater to women and always see them as helpless (neotenous biological traits elicit protective responses from men and women have far more of these then men do making men and women both see women as more vulnerable even when they are not, and men more capable and potentially dangerous even when they are not.).

[ThisIsMyOpinion]

Get death threats by other guys. Every games has had some level of threat at some point.
So now the argument is not online anymore. It skipped to the real life. Ok. Fine, out here both sides bash each other all the time. Wen do it, men do it. They do it within their own gender a LOT!
I do believe in equality. I have no problems punching a woman if necessary. During my younger days when the gender were not separated in competitions I did.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@ThisIsMyOpinion What the hell are you talking about? Men are harassed more online, this is a statement of fact. They are also more likely to be harassed in real life, this is a statement of fact. I have no idea why you are acting like I changed the argument, I never said anything about "real life" so I don't know why you brought it up.

As for equality, no you don't. If you cater to women your not believing in equality (which I don't have issue with in and of itself, men and women are different, but I do have an issue with it when your logically inconsistent (i. e. we are all equal but only men mistreat women and the reverse is almost unheard of. Thats not equality (and its not reality either)).

[ThisIsMyOpinion]

I am saying they are harrassed more. And that harrassement is done by other guys!
"They are also more likely to be harassed in real life" - If you mean sexually harassed this is far from the truth. But I wish it was true. I think women should catcall men more often.

I know that women also mistreat men. And I agree that it's an issue that is almost never spoken of.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@ThisIsMyOpinion And I am saying your wrong. Again, you can't claim that we are equals but also only men are pieces of shit. If we are equal we are equal across the board, no picking and choosing which traits you want to assign to one group or another, no assinging all "good traits" to women and all "bad traits" to men, we are equals period. That was the point I was making.

70% of all domestic violence is perpetrated by women and more emotional abuse then that is perpetrated by them as well. Statistically women rape men at comparable rates. Despite this we never acknowledge male victims, why? Because of people like you who refuse to see women as human beings.

The irony here is your claims are circular and you don't even realize it. You claim men are not harassed more then women and your reasoning for that is because you don't believe men are as likely to be harassed. This mentality is why we rarely study female on male abuse whether its sexual or otherwise because the presumption is that it goes only one way and then by ommiting the data that shows otherwise they use that ommission to justify the initial claim. Men are less likely to report rapes and sexual harassment which is why its so often claimed they don't experience. Its not that they don't, its that no one believes them or listens to them when it happens so they don't bother.

You want to put them on a pedestal thats fine, I don't particularly care but don't expect me to ignore facts to feed your delusions. If you can't handle that women are just as capable of wrong doing as men thats on you, reality shows otherwise and I will be siding with that.

reason.com/.../
theconversation.com/many-men-are-sexually-harassed-in-the-workplace-so-why-arent-they-speaking-out-93081

[ThisIsMyOpinion]

I never made that claim. Both men and women can be pieces of shit.

If those 70% are real then they take into account homosexual couples because between heterosexual couples men are responsable for 60% of domestic abuse.
No they don't. 82% of all juvenile victims are female. 90% of adult rape victims are female. Numbers given by RAINN -Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network.

Sexually harassed? No. Not even close. You spoke of online harassement and I told you, yes men are harassed online more, but not sexually harassed. They are harassed as in "noob" or "I will fuck you mother". by other guys.

You claim that female of male violence is not taken in account, but at least in my country I can give you a link with sexual violence that gives you female and male numbers. Here apav.pt/apav_v3/index.php/pt/estatisticas-apav

I don't put them on a pedestal and you don't get that. I just say that we men don't have it as bad as you say.

I am sure men are harrassed in the workplace, but they are less than women. Still we should listen to the ones that are harrassed. No question.

[Aakash_Hangargi]

I am sorry that someone treated you horribly but l have a few questions only for general understandings like want to understand somethings.

Questions
1. for 1 guys missbehaviour and several like these others you had one on one.
But you chose to battle in terms of whole group of women how does it makes someone strong.

2. The stats presented in media has always rigged details as per some choose how they represent it.

3. This is abit misguiding about the masculinity like completely ignoring the positive things they bring in its basically mood based I understand though how it might have felt I do its quite horibble I understand it you should have put cyber investigation on him for cyber bullying.

4. but taking it in general and speaking like that would make the young generation treat each other badly or fearing each other.

5. The people who do this won't change only action can be taken on them.

6. what iam afraid of these posts is that young minds will get influenced you have very powerful writing but if they only get the negative parts they won't see the positive things and start in fear or anger against men.

7. Women often belittle women, they also use each other play political games they like throw other women to guys like these as you describe and these behaviours are also encouraged by women in power it's not only the men some are used has henchmen to control other women likd in corporate world.

8. they cheat they lie but no women highlights that it's like there is a belief like men were not there so world will be hostile free women are devious more than men they just work in background while the fake masculine guys take it from front.

9. Narcisst people are narcisst no matter of what gender.
10. The stats you mentioned over there how many rape cases do you think are registered fake just bc they have women card always the guy will be blamed even if his innocent apparently all men have raping tendencies even the crippled once people are not trying to understand things but power dynamics.

P. S. This in no way something to demean or blaming or victimising just my personal inquisitive questions asked in terms to understand things..

[Lliam]

"you young lady deserve a thurough raping so you can learn the value of a strong police force. maybe if something bad happens to your family or your vagina you'll understand why law and order is more important than kindness or human life"
OMG!!! Someone actually said that?

I'm seething. This makes me so angry that I hardly know what to say. My immediate thoughts go to fantasies of what to do about such creatures.

I LOVE masculinity. These creatures are not masculine. They don't even qualify as homo sapiens.
I LOVE femininity. I treasure women. I want them to feel safe to fully engage in society with confidence and their heads held high. Without such women, the world would be gloomy and colorless. Yet these emissaries of darkness would destroy that.

I often marvel at the fact that women are plucky enough to trust men at all. Taking a chance in bed with being who is larger, stronger and more aggressive must take courage. Amazingly women value those masculine traits. Why would someone spoil that?

Thanks for this MyTake, Amanda. I'm WITH you!

[AmandaYVR]

Thank you, dear Lliam. 💛🙏

[AlwaysBelieving]

For sure, humans as a whole (be it male or female) have good and bad sides.

[mindNsoul]

@Lliam The sad thing is that this is the third time I see it here on G@G. A male user using rape as a tool of argument (intimidation) against a female user. Never once I saw a male user using that logic against another male. I am just stating my observation. Why do you think is that if it's not a demonstration of dominance? I am only asking you because I actually respect your views and your reasonable outlook.

[Lliam]

@mindNsoul, I have no idea what's squirming around in some people's minds. I guess it IS a form of dominance but why only at women? They could deploy that kind of crap against guys, too. So I'm thinking it has to do with a deep seeded resentment or hatred of women in particular. Those guys are weak and pathetic. So maybe they think women are easier prey. Maybe frightening people makes them feel more powerful and they think women are more easily frightened. All I know is, they are sick and should be severely dealt with.

[COMMODOREII]

I agree with you @Lliam

[Bringsplenty]

WOW, i know im stepping into a hornets nest but here goes. Hate is hate, weather its race based hate or sex based hate or what ever. Im male born and bonnified. I undestand statistics which are a great tool. The problem with statistics is that only reported things are recorded re domestic violence and assault. Many men do not report such things. Im 45 years old , have been married twice and would not trade my wife for any amount of wealth or barter. Yet in my life I have seriously dated long term 4 women including my wife and ex wife. In all but 1 of those relationships at least once domestic violence took place. Domestic violence whee i was attacked punched, kicked hit, attempted to cut me. All diffrent times. Never did I report it nor did I assault then in return with one exception. That exception was a ex girlfriend that punched, kicked and even threatened to shoot me over disagreements. In her mind it was ok to hit me because I was a man and she is a woman. I warned her several times would not tolerate such abuse and that if she acted like a child I would treat her as such by putting he over my knee and spank her the next time she put her hands on me. She lasted 3 months before attacking me because in her narcissist mind I took too long after work with coming home with the shopping list of food she had texted me. I called ahead at the store and actually got home 5 minutes earlier then normal. She attacked me as soon as i finished putting the items away. Once she was finished punching, kicking and trying to choke me I sat down on a chair and motioned for her to come sit on my lap. It took her a second to realize she was being guided across my knee instead. Instead of getting a hug and apology as she thought she got a spanking her daddy should have given her to teach her how to have decency in a relationship of how to treat others. I broke up with her shortly after that and never looked back. Yes women have been abused in many ways through the years. This still happens and is unacceptable. But one must realize how many times I've had a woman attack me even saying what are you going to do? If you hit me back you'll go to jail and if I call 911 you go to jail even if you don't. I think many women assault men, it just goes unreported.
I know a man that was raped by two women at gun point. When he reported it his friends laughed at him, the police laughed at him and when he went to court to put the women in prison he hears even the judge say to the bailiff "if i could be so lucky" did the women get found guilty of rape, you bet they did. How many years did they get in prison? Not a single day. They got probation and home arrest.
There are two sides to every story. YES HORRIBLE things do happen in life to make us feel many emotions, hate being one of them or fear. What we do with them is up to each of us. Dont let it cause you to feel all men are this way or all women are that way. Last I checked its about equality not superiority that goes for sex as well as race and everything else you can lump into this. Live well, treat people that are deserving with respect and if your not uplifting your partner and they are not uplifting you then your with the wrong partner. You owe yourself peace. Don't settle for less in this life

[AmandaYVR]

Aw, that would have been so good were it not for the spanking your girlfriend part. That was condescending and disgusting.
Otherwise, I agree with all.

[Screamsgutter]

Condescending and disgusting... after she used him as a Rocky doll? That's what you took out of that story to be the worst thing. That said it all right there.

[Snakeyes7]

I’d like to start off saying that this behavior is in no way specific to males, technically speaking.


Like someone else said I doubt masculinity has anything to do with this anyway because it goes against what it actually is and what it was revered for in the past. I really hate to be that guy but I think the way boys are shown in media and the rise of single motherhood might have a role to play in this.


With divorce being as easy to achieve as ever, and it is known that women initiate the vast majority of the divorces, a lot of boys have been growing up without fathers in the home or at least not readily available so they have no idea what their role in being men in the world is from a man’s perspective. Not that single mothers can’t raise great children but they aren’t replacements of fathers. It has been proven that boys who grow up without father figures are more likely to have behavioral issues, lower self esteem and confidence especially with women, have mental health problems, drop out of school and resort to crime such as those you talk about and much more. Let’s take mass shooters for example nearly all of them were missing a father.


Look at the media within the last decade or so. How many men come to mind who if not as dumb as a rock would otherwise be a domestic abuser? The Gillette commercial is a very good example of this. What kind of message do you think this tells boys growing up with this stuff? It seems to me that even the message of “toxic masculinity” sounds like men are biologically programmed to do all this, like we are one misstep away from raping the next girl we see.


We are also slowly losing male only spaces. Let’s look at Boy Scouts, it existed just to let them learn actual skills and at the same line let them be boys almost like an extension of a father but that’s gone now. Even man caves have a lot of negative feelings towards them and is commonly frowned upon in relationships for men to hang out with only their friends. They have lost a lot of space to hold refuge. Imagine being socially unacceptable to have your girls nights out.


Not to condone their actions but if women were subjected to this, wouldn’t we be seeing this behavior unfold too? As I explained before, we are seeing something similar today but I believe it is for similar reasons, being told that men are monsters or morons so they look down on them and only fueling the divide.


Like I said, I don’t condone any of these actions but wouldn’t being told all your life that you are a monster and that you are responsible for the suffering of a certain class of people drive you insane too? Equality isn’t a zero sum game and if men feel that they are accepted in society maybe the prevalence of these behaviors would decrease.

[Kaazsz]

I agree with this post. But I have a single problem with it.


I feel that the source of this toxic masculinity comes from female sexuality.


Women are attracted to a certain kind of man. If you aren’t that man, everyone in your life will ridicule you.


I used to play magic the gathering growing up. Guess what? Being a nerd is not cool. Why? Because men have an inherent disdain for other non masculine males? Not really.


People look down on nerds for one reason. Being a nerd does not get you pussy (well these days that may have changed since girls are in the nerd world too nowadays yay for that.)


Everything we judge men for, is based on “do the actions of this man result in pussy?” If no, than it’s time to put that man down into the dumpster.


So yes, men being forced by society to adhere to some idea of masculinity is bad for us and results in harm to women. But it all started off with the vagina. What does the pussy want? It wants all those traits we try to force men to be. And thus, toxic masculinity is born.


Part of the solution is society waking up. Part of the solution is women waking up. But I don’t know if women can change their sexuality. They will forever be attracted to a certain masculine ideal that came from our evolution.


In the same way women are hurt by men’s sexualitzation of them in the media, men’s masculinity is sexualized in the media. And a man who does not meet woman’s sexual ideal is hurt by not meeting that ideal. Just as a woman who is not “slim thick” also hurts her because she cannot live up to the sexual feminine ideal that men desire.


So we can finally see that both sexes have a sexual ideal, and attempting to force the entire population to meet that ideal is very damaging.

[Kaazsz]

A big difference I have to point out, between the sexual ideal of what men want in women, and what women want in men.

Men’s sexual ideal is one of beauty. If a woman is not beautiful we do not remove her woman card. She is always and forever a woman.

However a man can lose his man card. When a man is not sexually attractive to women, he loses his man card. Because being a man in this society is not about his looks. Being a man is about his confidence and what he sows into the earth and reaps what he has sown.

A “real man” sows a lot of seeds and reaps a lot of good stuff from them. This is what turns women on. A man with confidence and power and social skills and money and mental strength and so on and so on and so on. What it takes to be a man is ASTRONOMICAL, compared to what it takes to be a woman. Which is just be born with a vagina.

[Kaazsz]

So you can imagine why men end up being violent and angry. We are held to this standard that is impossible to achieve. We must be big strong men who get a lot of pussy, otherwise you’re a worthless sack of human trash.

[ecfresh]

No, it’s up to you. If you think you are a “worthless sack of human trash” then you will act like it. Just like she said, men who feel weak and insecure lash out just like the asshole did to her.

Have real confidence. Don’t base your self esteem on how anyone reacts to you. Love yourself first.

[Kaazsz]

It’s not about me but thanks anyways lol.

[DonCachondo]

Dude, I think that's part of what they mean by toxic masculinity -.-
And you totally undermine your own point at the end there by suggesting that women go through something similar despite their incomparably low rates of gender violence.

[Kaazsz]

You’re implying that men and women would react the same way, which I highly disagree with.

What exactly do you mean by “that’s what they mean by toxic masculinity “ which part?

[DonCachondo]

the very idea that a man's worth is measured by his ability to attract women

[AmandaYVR]

"I feel that the source of this toxic masculinity comes from female sexuality.

Women are attracted to a certain kind of man. If you aren’t that man, everyone in your life will ridicule you."

That's only partially true. For one thing, mostly it's the men who are doing the ridiculing. Some are women, I know, there are some on gag, I have seen them, but just because some write multiple mytakes, doesn't mean it's all or many women. They also tend to be from certain regions of the world. Not where I live, for instance (in Canada.) Some women prefer more 'masculine' men (whatever that is - but, you know, 'macho''/machismo, I guess), and some women prefer something else - more sensitive/caring/cerebral/educated/egalitarian/evolved types (sorry if that doesn't describe others to your liking, but that's how I personally describe them.)
See my response to BlueEyedBirdWatcher...
"... don't you think we see a broad range of males, both tough/dogged and more evolved/sensitive/cerebral/educated/egalitarian types? This variety and blurring, I sometimes wonder, could be one reason for some men's anxiety. They don't know who they should be. But it can also be seen as advantageous - because there are more choices/flexibility for what could be acceptable now - based on their inherent genetic makeup and personality, and of the female partners they may choose (or male partners, for that matter.)"

In a thorough discussion about male stress and masculinity, etc. it should really include things like depression and suicide. They are connected, if you ascribe to the hormone angle.

I think that there is a lot of stress right now, but there is also more latitude for who, and what, people can be. I am not the one saying men should 'toughen up'/'be men' or for women to all have babies and be chained to the oven or vacuum cleaner. It's more fluid and allows for more freedom of choice.

[thomual]

I'm a little confused. Obviously the person was arguing that Law and Order is supposed to somehow prevent rape. We dont live in the Viking era, so that's something. I think you are seeing a threat where there isn't one. The threat is the evil of a lawless land. This is the point he was making. I'm not sure how you didn't get that message?

Men are less emotionally sensitive than women, on average, and many use extreme examples like rape to illustrate points, not realizing this emotionally clouds the point. That's the real problem with, "mansplaining". It's not that you are stupid because you are a woman, it's more that he is stupid for invoking emotion rather than just saying what he means. If a man were to say to another man, "yes but rape..." most others would just say back, "yeah but... (some solution to the problem of lawlessness)" they wouldn't even think there was any kind of veiled threat.

I'm just saying you're taking it way more personally than it was meant, or most men would understand it to be. And that's a natural response, given that you are female. That's just not how men communicate with eachother.

[AmandaYVR]

No. I know the language males use is harsher and more blunt around other men than with women. There is NO justifiable reason to ever say such a thing to anyone EVER. It is the equivalent of a woman aggressing on a man (even if online) "I'm going to cut off your dick", or "you deserve your dick to be cut off."

"You, young lady, deserve a thorough raping."
YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND HOW FUCKING OFFENSIVE THAT IS. IT'S MEANT TO BE CONDESCENDING. If he said something similar to a man irl, he would be in a lot of trouble. Just because we are female and distanced, online, in no way excuses this behaviour.

This is not about respecting "law and order."

[thomual]

Hmm.. point taken. It is like saying "i wish someone would cut your dick off, then you'd understand." When you put it that way it sounds pretty ignorant. And personal.

[chubbette]

I wish I was a man.

[AmandaYVR]

Thank you.

[Ryfyle]

@chubbette Que the trans...

[ret04]

One common misconception is this notion that most men are universally taught something regarding masculinity. That isn't true. Most men infer things, and because of this, men have all manner of different beliefs regarding "masculine" behavior. But make no mistake, there are a lot of dumb men in the world. Statistically speaking, there's more idiot level men. It's just kind of biological. Questioning their psyche is like trying to figure out why a bit-bull is violent. It's operating on base instinct and it's all muscle. The dumber the guy, the more things he tries to solve with violence.

That's got nothing to do with lots and lots of men, who aren't stupid, and yet they are the ones to facing most feminist backlash for women who feel like this is an orchestrated plot of the male gender.

On a side note - As much as I'm in favor of whatever dynamic of power people want to attempt in their relationships, you will find that even men with brain are going to meet notions of "egalitarianism" with a healthy skepticism. A lot of men take issue with notion of gender equality on an "a la carte" basis.

[AmandaYVR]

I like your first paragraph. Surprised I haven't heard someone else write that one before. So true, what you said.

I am also tired of the feminist topic. I really don't have anything to say on that.
I just want fairness, equal pay (we're still at -20%) and otherwise, we don't have to be the same, just valued the same.

What's wrong with egalitarianism (she dares ask)?
How would you define or describe it better, what would be ideal... or realistic?

[Unit1]

I wouldn't know about men's gender roles being somehow involved in men's aggression. None of the men i hang out with or made more than an acquaintance ever expressed or thought, that sexually assaulting or demeaning women is ever right nor would it be "manly". We, the adequate men, love women (some of us love women more than the other men).

with that said i don't follow gender roles (i consider them to be toxic) and "masculinity" as well as "femininity" and "alpha" and "beta" aren't even words to me. I don't understand anybody subscribing to these and that's totally fine by me. I make do with what i have. Society functions and is stable enough. Women work and drive gladly. Men and women go on dates and fancy each other. And if somebody wants to "dominate" these women so much like making them their possession chained to the kitchen like a dog, then these women have the freedom and money (power) to send them back to the wilderness tribes where they came from. I don't see any problems.

aggression regardless by who is perpetrated is making one self a freak, that i want to distance myself from. I don't hang out with toxic dicks and cunts. Life's too short. There's this sweet block function, that without it's existence the internet forums and Q&A sites shouldn't exist😀

[MrOracle]

First of all, you need to understand that the reply you received was a TROLL, from an angry man who is tired of being blamed for things that only a tiny fraction of men do, and who returned the extreme reply both to show you how it feels to be attacked at a very base level, to express his anger and frustration at being demonized for being male, and to troll you into overreacting just as you did.

Masculinity is not the problem and never has been. The problem is people not taking responsibility for their own actions and behavior, and for teaching their children those same poor values and often for actively protecting them from the consequences of their actions, and pushing the blame on someone else. It's called Moral Relativism. And that's not at all exclusive to men.

Feminism has been pushing to feminize men for 50 years, and it's created far more problems than it's solved, and women have never been more unhappy. Few women are actually attracted to or respect feminized men, and they've begun to complain about it - but it was largely the women of their mother's and grandmother's generations who are responsible.

[MrOracle]

I should add here, that while I find that guys' reply absolutely reprehensible, and unacceptable, it's also quite clear that it was Internet blather that he'd never speak in person. He IS weak, and is trying to put on what he thinks is some kind of a strong facade - but he's fooling no one. Still, what I wrote above is the truth.

You list that "masculine masculine gender role norms have been linked to men's physical and sexual aggression against women" and cite a bunch of extremely biased feminist studies - but "linked" is a fairly meaningless connection in the first place. That's like "linking" women with birth defects, implying that women were the cause of them, because of the "link." Those studies can't even point out a more specific causal relationship with this violence, even in part, much less can they point to it as being a primary reason.

I could commission studies that "link" women raising boys as single mothers with rape and sexual aggression, and I bet I would get a far more conclusive causal relationship from that study, but no one is willing to do that research because it doesn't fit the narrative.

[MrOracle]

The vast majority of men are STRONGLY opposed to rapists, and if they stumbled across a rape in progress, I would fear for the rapist's life, because most men would be likely to beat him to death. But that protection mechanism is very much part of masculinity. All of the mechanisms that protect you and enforce laws are masculine in nature. To object to them is incredibly short-sighted, and will have dire consequences for you down the road, if not already.

It's very similar to "defund the police" - people are supporting this, and then are horrified when mobs come and smash and loot their stores and graffiti their homes and set fire to their cars - and the police don't show up to help them because their funding was cut. You are advocating for a world that you absolutely would not want to live in by blaming something all men share because of the behavior of a tiny percentage of men, instead of figuring out why THOSE SPECIFIC MEN did what they did.

[AmandaYVR]

Blah blah blah. I lost interest after you blamed women and "Feminism has been pushing to feminize men for 50 years, and it's created far more problems than it's solved"

[kespethdude]

Just because he was trolling, does NOT make it ok. It is not OK to say that to ANYONE, male OR female. It is called "incendiary speech", speech intended solely to instigate fights.

[kespethdude]

Make that male, female, cis, trans or whatever gender identity.

[FakeName123]

Don't bother. She is ideologically possessed. Obviously this has to do about weak and not strong men. Any person with half a functioning brain knows that.

Let alone the damage being done to men by not helping them be raised into men and learning to be masculine in a constructive rather than destructive way. Which correlates a lot with an increase of single motherhood and other more genocentric elements in our current society.

[Aiko_E_Lara]

This is in a justification about trolls. The exist both male and female but what are you going to do about it? Make long paragraphs generalizing instead of just blocking the person? It's like for example of all the crowd, there's a single guy who came to you on whisper all women are horrible then you just started to speech that all men are horrible just because one guy told you that all women are horrible. Punishing the entire group for one man's action doesn't make you better.

[VanillaSalt]

I understand perfectly where he’s coming from with his comment. Look people don’t know their Privilege without suffering oppression. They don’t know happiness without being sad at some point. People value life because it ends. It’s bittersweet that the things we love are taught to use by their horrible opposites.


We wouldn’t need police if there was no murder or rape... and sometimes people have to see or experience the murder or rape to understand what it means. I bet even women can’t understand rape unless they have been raped.


Still you shouldn’t hope bad things on people just so they can learn... I say this but I honestly hope these democrat cities burn around them. As horrible as it is these people don’t care about me and these protestors would just as soon kill me and burn my property so as far as I’m considered you get what you give. Karmas a bitch. And while I would never burn their homes to the ground I’m not obliged to save them from the fire they started either.


I hope the new man hating feminists live and die alone because of the hate they spew out towards all men for the actions of a few.


I hope that all people that make others suffer suffer to an equal degree.


The only real god is Karma. And damn is she a bitch.

[BlueEyedBirdWatcher]

That was a very interesting read, I am shocked by those statistics and would like to look into the expansion of them at some point.

I think that the toxic masculinity is in part due to a broad stroke anti masculine movement. Which mostly took away good role models in media and left masculinity solely as a negative trait of villains,
It was a social surgery performed with a jack hammer.
Dominant men should fight adversities and push their allies.

I have seen a lot of examples of positive masculinity in my personal life, but that was entirely in the army. If I hadn't joined I would have nothing to aim towards.

So, while this is just another guy writing a post complaining about feminism, feminists made the mistake of tearing down masculinity, and letting outsiders write the rules on what it should be.

[AmandaYVR]

To your point of masculine role models - that's a good one. But don't you think we see a broad range of males, both tough/dogged and more evolved/sensitive/cerebral/educated/egalitarian types? This variety and blurring, I sometimes wonder, could be one reason for some men's anxiety. They don't know who they should be. But it can also be seen as advantageous - because there are more choices/flexibility for what could be acceptable now - based on their inherent genetic makeup and personality, and of the female partners they may choose (or male partners, for that matter.)

I honestly don't know anything about feminists making "the mistake of tearing down masculinity" - not because I am challenging that, just that I am not a believer in that type of thinking so their opinions are irrelevant to me. But it seems that many men are angry by what they hear, and that stokes the fire of the divide (which is an equal stand-off, not one-sided.) But I leave those two extremist groups to deck it out with each other. I prefer following and talking with more evolved types that are true egalitarians. So masculinity in and of itself is not bad to me (and I never use the phrase 'toxic masculinity' because I don't believe that masculinity is inherently toxic), but I do care very much about violence and hostility, and I take it as no small thing when I see it, even as some dismiss it as being "no big deal when it's online."

[AmandaYVR]

My best girl friend irl had a horrible incident, potentially almost attacked with a knife (certainly was threatened) on the subway home from my place on night just recently. (See my description of it here, to BeenThereLovedIt.) I feel awful for her, as she is prone to anxiety and did worry about her safety travelling by herself on public transit at 1am. And it happened. That is so, so bad for her sense of security and safety. Then she was planning to come over again, but this time stay the night to avoid all that risk, and she got very ill right before. So ill she even went to the hospital to get herself checked out. She at first wondered if it was food poisoning. Then, she recently had a panic attack, her first ever; doesn't know what caused it, and now I'm wondering/thinking it could be related in part to that violent incident (as well as covid stress.)

I've been observing this male hostility for a long time, and thinking about why exactly men are so hostile towards women online (besides the opportunity of anonymity, of course. That is merely a tool, not a cause.) Trying to unpack it all takes a doctorate in sociology which I don't have, but I am highly interested in what has happened to society.

[BlueEyedBirdWatcher]

Im very sorry about your friend, that is awful. You are a good friend for trying to help her.

[BlueEyedBirdWatcher]

First of, regarding toxic masculinity, I use that as to differentiate between positive masculinity. I use it for things such as controlling or aggressive behaviour, insecurity caused by not showing feelings, or insecurity by not being tough enough. I regard toughness as a neutral masculinity, it is masculine but not very positive. And intelligence and compassion as a positive neutral trait.

The more I think about it the more examples of positive masculinity in media I can think of.
However, these aren't main characters, or when they are main characters they don't champion the positive masculine energy. I think I was wrong in my previous comment.

But I stand by the world not teaching positive masculinity but maybe we don't teach positive femininity?

The crisis in masculinity might be because of how families work.

I teach my daughter what I see as positive masculinity because, well, femininity is difficult for me. That is her mother's job.

(This conversation is making me wonder if the masculinity crisis is a new problem or if it has always been this way. I had assumed it was new and am writing as though it is)

While most children have been raised by the mother in history. In the past hundred years we have extended the normal length of education from 12 to 22, and filled the home with pastimes that don't require interacting with the family. Maybe the role of the father has become smaller recently.

[3dbrah]

Unfortunately this thesis cannot be accepted as 100% legitimate. In the traditional society, people avoided chronic stress. Therefore we can reasonably assume that both chronic stress and its negative impact on human behaviour, mental health and general well being is totally a modern creation.

Furthermore, I would like to put emphasis on the total lack of research that indicates that healthy testosterone levels are derived from healthy masculine behaviour. If a man's testosterone levels decline below normal levels, he is at increased risk for suicidal tendencies, suicide, memory loss, temporary infertility, lack of energy, lack of will to live and lack of sexual function.

It is exactly chronic stress that that is the foremost cause of testosterone levels below what is reasonably healthy for a man. It is thus no coincidence that men try to defend their masculinity to avoid killing themselves, or otherwise engaging in other self harm behaviour. Not saying that such behaviour is justified, its not.

More and more men today are on testosterone replacement therapy due to low naturally occurring testosterone levels. This must be done to avoid suicide and crippling depression and ensure normal functioning in society until the man can go back to normal.

It is shown from this research that masculinity and testosterone are much more complex than previously thought.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/yM8iSbNGNpc

Please watch this short video. Anabolic Doc is the first testostronogist who studies testosterone and men's emotional well being.

[AmandaYVR]

What you said does not invalidate what I said. I am aware of everything you mentioned and I do agree. Those are medical truths. However this runs parallel to the studies I referenced. Of which there have been many over the decades, studying behaviour, mentality, personality.
Broadening this out to the societal influences makes it a very complex topic, and no one mytake can encompass all that. But medically, I am entirely with you. These are ALSO issues that need to be recognized and addressed.

[3dbrah]

Men are the primary victim of male violence and primary murder victim of male murderers. Men represent the overwhelming majority of male victims. Not to mention women committing violence against men and the culture shipping it off as male weakness.

[AmandaYVR]

True. So address men for that. It's not the women who are perpetrating most of the violence.
Well I never think of violence against men as male weakness. Can't speak for everyone else though.

[Screamsgutter]

Men know its men and it's no surprise. We just don't march around the countryside over it. And even knowing that men are assaulted and murdered 3x as often as women, it's always "STOP VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN AND GIRLS". What does that say to a thirteen year old boy other than he's not as important as the thirteen year old girl next to him? Violence against him is apparently okay. This doesn't occur to women? Or they just don't care.

[JDavid25]

You see what I don't appreciate about stuff like this is that it's implied that only women go through harrassment and violence and whatnot and us men just flow through life with nobody botherin us.. It also vilifies masculinity in a way and makes it seem like hostility is a male trait, toxic masculinity and whatnot.. The truth is that that guy was a troll.. A jerk.. Aside from sexual harrassment more men get harrassed on the internet than women.. Violence against males is much higher, males are 53% of the domestic violence recipients, and much of the suicide rate.. When are we gon stop playin these gender war games as if women are the only ones sufferin. In Boko Haram there was a school that got raided, they set the boys dorms on fire and burned most of them to death, and slit the throats of the remaining escapers.. They just told the girls to go and get married and scadaddle basically.. Males prisoners of war are gang raped a lot of times, and shunned by their villages when they find out, and there are no rape crisis centers to help those gentlemen.. People generally care more for women than they do for men..

[AlwaysBelieving]

Good points

[JDavid25]

@AlwaysBelieving Of course.. Thanks man.. 😊..

[AmandaYVR]

"it's implied that only women go through harrassment and violence and whatnot and us men just flow through life with nobody botherin us.. "
That's completely untrue. I implied no such thing. A redirection of violence against men does not address violence against women by men.
Just because an article is about something (such as a very specific thing of rigid masculine gender role adherence), doesn't mean a negation of the other things - it means that this article is about one aspect.
And if you'll notice I wrote, "3. Men who espouse a “tough” persona endorse hostile attitudes toward women, and hostile attitudes toward other men, for that matter, regardless of their sensitivity to gender-relevant threats."

"Aside from sexual harrassment more men get harrassed on the internet than women.. Violence against males is much higher"
Women do not harrass men on the internet MORE than men harrass women. False.
Violence? Uh, yeah, ON MEN PURPETRATED BY MEN. You saying statements like that makes you lose credibility.

You're comparing prisoners of war to innocent civilian women in their home country, not in wartime.
It's ridiculous. They are not related.

"males are 53% of the domestic violence recipients"
That's also not true.

[JDavid25]

"That's completely untrue I implied no such thing. A redirection of violence against men does not address the violence against women by men".. Well first it is implied, because that's the whole of the argument.. To imply that women do through so much more than men, and people need to recognize it.. Hello there's so many organization for women.. What's the point of talkin about violence against women when most decent men don't do it and society addresses a lot..
And there is no such thing a "rigid masculinity gender role adherence".. It's just silly word play.. Gender roles are apart of nature, and yes there are social constructions added to it to emphasize some things, but other than that it's just made up academic wishful thinkin..
"MORE than men harrass women. False.
Violence? Uh, yeah, ON MEN PURPETRATED BY MEN. You saying statements like that makes you lose credibility.".. Well first I didn't say that women did anything to men more than men.. I was mentionin that while you make tru and make it a gender (which you are no matter how you try to deny it) men go through it also at a greater length.. Now as to whether it's men or women more.. I don't know.. And people always say that it's perpetuated by men but that's completely missin the point and it doesn't matter.. Women harm men also and mostly in different way..

[JDavid25]

"You're comparing prisoners of war to innocent civilian women in their home country, not in wartime.
It's ridiculous. They are not related.".. That's a pretty insensitive and ignorant statement.. Because most prisoners of war are innocent people.. The men I described are not combatant enemies but people are tryin to just live everyday life, captured and raped in submission.. Their wives shunned them, and leave them and organizations made for rape survivors dismiss the them because they are men..
"That's also not true".. Yeah it most definitely is.. The thing is women are more of severe domestic violence victims because men are stronger physically.. But men are also 40% of severe victims so it's not too far off.. Also take into account that a lot of men are not believed to experience domestic violence by their SOs..

[JDavid25]

And I apologize about the sentence errors.. Sometimes I type too fast on my phone.

[Rocco7070]

Sometimes life shows any of us just how sick some people are, there are. Men and women whos lives are so filled with feeling like trash, they have to use that kind of flag to get anyones attention, dont buy into that. Your opinion is mine also, vut if it wasn't the same Id sure look like a. Man with a pencil dick, or a feeling 9f no worth telling you something oike that. what y9u did by posting that freaks answer is right to do, he can't be shammed because that class has no shame but he can be seen as a g ood example of whats wrong around us. When any man talks to a woman or girl that way all it shows is that rape is on his mind cause he wants to be raped or s omeother freaky trip. Move on girl, everyone here backs you up, pass that bitch up.

[AmandaYVR]

Thank you! I really appreciate that.
And I will. I hate repeating stuff or looking back. Onwards...

[Rocco7070]

Your welcome.. no problem, just be well

[Nalix]

While some violence and aggression against women certainly can be explained with these motivations, there is apparently a perception that *all* violence against women can or should be explained with these motives. This is one of many motives for violence, but certainly not all.

The unfortunate trend I am seeing is that this is the go-to explanation for all violence against women, which is absurd. This trend then leads to the reactionary trend where some people assume that violence against women is never for these reasons, which of course is also absurd.

[AmandaYVR]

Exactly. I agree. It is merely *one* aspect.