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Want to understand MGTOW for real? Go watch the 2019 Joker movie and analyze it deeply.
-A guy down on his luck.
=issues nobody even bothers to empathize with
-Trouble with relationships because of those issues
-not a bad person from the start, but you see what becomes of it with the classic Joker we all know.
-TERRIBLE parenting. Very underrated issue
-wealth inequality
-hypocrisy throughout society everywhere, with few questioning it.
Yes, a lot of this makes a man decide to go MGTOW. The Joker character by the end of the movie basically is an example of a guy going MGTOW, but maybe more so, "honk pilled" which out of all the "pills" that exist, can be one of the most dangerous if one lets it be. The "Honk Pill." Which "taking it" means seeing the world as if one giant comedy, because everything in reality is just so out of whack, there's no real reason to take anything too seriously.
I myself am proudly part of MGTOW and most definitely describe myself as "honk pilled." I usually despise the Joker character, but this movie made me truly understand him, thinking how if a few things were different, he could be an amazing man. He's a fictional character, but real men like him exist. And that toxic Joker Harley Quinn relationship? Yes. Those come out of those situations often as well.
To me, the being honk pilled can easily turn one into a highly sadistic and egotistical Joker character, if one lets it. I made the decision to not let myself turn down that path, but I know how to act if I have and bring down people with it, should I see it as just. That means things like seriously, emotionally hurting my ex just with words or making my father cry.
A key point is I hold back in how toxic I can be from that large honk pill I swallowed long ago. But many guys? They see no reason to. They have much worse luck than me, far worse and simply do not have as much patience either.
So when you hear about how "incels are so toxic, so dangerous" and "MGTOW is so whiny" ... just think of the Joker movie. Think of what Joker became. Even sitting in asylum isolated from most, just like guys behind their screens, he's highly cunning, manipulative, and downright evil. It is up to everyone to decide though: do we want a tragic life turned into chaotic evil to be the men of the future or not? As maybe, something as simple as a bit of understanding can spark a huge change and prevent a toxic cycle.
Very well said. Men like the Joker were not born, they were made. Society would also do well to remember that the most dangerous men in the world are men who have NOTHING to lose.
That movie was excruciating to watch in the first 30 minutes. Also you made a very important key issue about “TERRIBLE parenting. Very underrated issue”
As someone who was raised by an extremely controlling, often emotional abusive and on a few occasions physically abusive mother I know EXACTLY what that is. But most women scoff at that especially feminists.
@youknowbetter Thanks. Cause I'm so against bad parenting after wwhat I dealt with, that I 100% want to make it much easier to sue one parents for proven psychological trauma and said lawsuit should be able to happen at any age, because it can mess up one's entire life.
I also advocate for fining people having kids too young especially as well as fining for not having enough financial support and decent mental health/empathy to be able to do so, unless proof is given those will be gotten in the near future.
We need to start holding parents VERY accountable for their kids. I mean like give them extreme amounts of trouble should it be proven they were bad at parenting.
I think it's why too, so many don't marry now and especially do not have kids. After so many of us twenty somethings were subject to parents neither wanting to spend much money on us yet ALSO wanted to control us as much as possible. So in turn, we go a bit opposite, by not giving a crap what people do personally or being socially liberal, yet focusing mainly on oneself fiscally. Not all younger people are this exactly, but at least to some degree, there's a reason why Ross and Five Below will thrive while Dillard's collapses. It's amazing irony of a somewhat pricier store like Kroger's not paying as much as somewhere cheaper like Walmart, and especially Aldi's which is DIRT cheap, paying far more. This in my opinion, will devastate a lot of brands who think setting up a Instagram photo spot is "what the cool, younger people like." We must rise up and say enough is enough, taking a string hold of our wallets and making society crack a bit.
This just sounds sad. The joker shows the downfall of someone who's mentally ill. A lot of MGTOW men sounds like they're struggling mentally and I encourage them to seek help with their mental health. I used to think somewhat like them but I prioritized mental healing and growth. Also, a lot of MGTOW supporters blame and place their anger on women. 🤷🏽♂️ I'd typically sympathize with their issues but it just sounds like men who don't want to work on themselves.
@kelvinmed I think in that case you flat out didn't understand the movie one bit. It's more than just "a mentally ill person goes crazy." Actually, one could argue any mental issues are at no fault whatsoever of the Joker himself, as A) He has a symtom that makes him laugh at times he doesn't mean to and B) He was abused as a kid, and lied to about it until he's much older.
When he goes to Wayne's father, the father acted like an asshole brute towards him because he rightfully seriously thought he was his dad. He was just trying to figure things out, but again and again, people treated him like trash.
So what happens in the end? He no longer gives a shit. He shoots the media guy who's been hypocritical the entire time and leads a team of people who also no longer choose to give a damn about a world that doesn't care about/shits on them.
Yes, this may in fact be what we are heading towards, and the harsh truth is just like with hitler, it began with a girl who couldn't resist fucking a guy who abused both her and her son.
People can't accept the truth that girls often fuck/give attention to the very guys who are toxic and evil, resulting in screwed up families for decades now. That's why MGTOW exists and ACTUALLY it IS about improving oneself, just without any involvement of women whatsoever. But that doesn't mean men can't vent to the community about the BS women, whether moms, exs, or in general. Everytime a girl shows their true colors, it proves the AWOLT theory more. I really don't want the AWOLT theory to be true, most men don't but especially nowadays, it's becoming really, really hard, as evidence comes up so constantly for it, and not for the opposite.
@youknowbetter I could not agree more.
It's not a movement nor is it calling for any major political action. It's a philosophy or way of living. Thus, it is not similar to Feminism. There are some simple rules and generally men fall into different categories ranging from casual to Monk.
The problem with MGTOW is that it isn't a true movement that helps men, but rather a reactionary movement formed purely out of anger and hate. It's mostly filled with entitled men supposedly "going their own way" because they can't have their own way. Instead of developing the wisdom required to maintain a healthy relationship, gaining the courage to approach women for relationships, and/or being introspective to uncover potential character flaws that might cause a relationship to fail, MGTOW tend to blame women for their problems and completely give up on women. However, instead of actually "going their own way" and enjoying their supposedly single lives without women, they spend most of their time online complaining about women. It proves that they truly want women, but are frustrated due to not putting in the effort to get them. If not that, they feel that women should just come to them because they might be "nice." While I wouldn't call myself a feminist at all, MGTOW tend to blame feminism for many of their problems too. While feminism isn't perfect, it can't stop a person from finding a good woman and having a good relationship. When things get tough, a real man never quits. He solves whatever problem he faces in life and keeps grinding until he achieves his goal. MGTOW doesn't encourage men to do this. Instead, it encourages men to whine, bitch, and moan instead of doing better.
In classic female style, you completely avoid discussing the role modern women have played in the MGTOW movement.
I don't think you understand what MGTOW is. You are confusing it with incels. MGTOW has more to do with refusing to be in relationship with women because they are one sided relationship. They still like women, but only for sex. Going there own way has to do with not following the status quo of what a man is supposed to do or act like in a relationship.
Also you seemed to describe feminism pretty well, if you just change what you said to be women😂
I just want to get married, and the laws took that opportunity from me. I get to decide where to go to find a marriage contract that is fair. You didn't discuss that in your opinion. The rest sounds dead on and I don't care. It doesn't help people find someone when the law comes in and makes marriage unattractive to men. I hope they fix it. I'm only getting older.
@KrakenAttackin: The role that women have played in the MGTOW movement is irrelevant to why the MGTOW movement itself is problematic. It's problematic because it's not a movement that helps men improve themselves. It only encourages discord among women and the negative aspects of MGTOW'S character.
@nathanp97: I understand MGTOW perfectly. It's basically an online community of disgruntled men that have poor luck with women and spend the majority of their time online crying about women and feminism instead of helping each other learn more and do better with women. They don't have the wisdom, or, in most cases, the social skills required to find a quality long-term partner. They often feel entitled to a woman's attention and bicker online when they don't get it. A lot of them are "incels" and most of them don't even have casual sex with women. If anything, most MGTOW are upset because they struggle getting casual sex.
@Shyguy206: Marriage isn't broken. The strength of a marriage is determined by who you marry. It's mostly a movement of disgruntled men that either had a bad marriage or simply can't get a wife.
@jestergent: Nothing is stopping you from getting married. I don't know why you think the law is preventing that. The thing is, marriage isn't for the foolish. Marriage requires a ton of wisdom. Vowing to spend your life with someone until death do you part is a big deal. You have to know exactly who the person is you're marrying before you propose. If you know that the woman is the right person for you and she genuinely loves you for who you are, then marriage should be very attractive. However, if you're foolish about who you marry, then you pay the price. It's like that for everybody, including women.
Getting married is risky in America for men. It's a high risk investment. That is what is stopping me. I don't know. Maybe everyone just wants hookup culture.
@jestergent: Getting married can be risky for anybody. Like I said, you have to be wise about who you choose to marry. Don't just marry any woman because just you think that she's a perfect 10, cooks and cleans, and has a tight pussy. You have to actually determine if she truly loves you for who you are, cares about you, is kind towards you, loyal regarding the relationship, and makes sacrifices to be with you as you continue to date her. However, determining this requires wisdom. If you don't have the wisdom to determine whether or not the woman is good for you, then you're doomed from the start. This isn't something that just men suffer from either. A lot of women also lack wisdom regarding relationships and choose to marry men without foreseeing their ill intentions as well.
Or maybe men have just had enough of getting screwed over in divorces and losing contact with their children through family courts, and all the other shit women put men through.
@Stephen_77: If a man is disgruntled about his marriage going bad, experiencing divorce, and not being able to see his children, the best response isn't to become MGTOW and spend most of his time bitching and moaning about women. If anything, the best thing a man could possibly do in this situation is to learn from his negative experiences, be more careful when choosing a wife next time by ensuring that the love is genuine, and not negatively generalize women based on the negative experience that they went through because of one ex-wife. The MGTOW movement should be about taking a break from relationships for a time so that MGTOW could help each other become more introspective, wiser, and socially adept so that they can enter better relationships in the future. Instead, MGTOW is literally a movement devoted to quitting and bitching about women online. This doesn't help men, but instead makes them more miserable.
The problem is most divorces are initiated by women and in most women get the house and half the money + alimony. Ever heard the saying foot me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me? It doesn't matter who you pick people change. Besides what you are doing is victim blaming. If a woman married someone who was physically abusive would you blame her for not picking the right guy, or the guy for abusing her. Women are abusing men through the court system so it is the same thing.
@nathanp97: That old saying is my point exactly. The goal is to avoid being fooled again. Sure, the possibility exists that people change, but the probability is low. Genuinely good people rarely stop being genuinely good people. Chances are, if they "changed," they were already like that beforehand. Are you a good person? If you were married, what are the chances that you would stop being a good person to your wife? I am willing to bet that you consider yourself a good person and wouldn't just change up on your wife. If you picked well, then your wife would be no different to you. Personally, I know that I would never change who I am, unless in a way that could help myself and my loved ones. I'm also not victim blaming; I'm promoting wisdom. To answer your question, yes I would blame the woman for marrying a physically abusive man. Only a fool would do that. I would never marry a man that beats me. When selecting partners, people, no matter what gender they are, should value and prioritize love, care, kindness, and loyalty in their partner. If a man consistently proves to me that he is loving, caring, kind, and loyal, then he is worth marrying. 🥰 If I vow to spend the rest of my life with a man that beats me, then I can only blame myself for that foolishness. However, if that happened to me, I definitely wouldn't give up on men and bitch about men all day on the internet because that doesn't help me. I would learn from my own mistakes, become a better me, and move on to a better man. MGTOW should encourage each other to do the same instead of bicker online about women and feminism.
Some people are good at hiding who they are tell they get married. My aunt is a perfect example of this. + when marriages end people get bitter and try to hurt the other person or think they deserve more than they do. MGTOW is more about giving up on relationships and just satisfying your needs. 50% of marriages ends, and most of those negatively effect men more, so why take that risk? If I told you there was a 50% chance your parachute wouldn't open would you go sky diving? Probably not. You aren't an expert on how parachutes work so you can pick your own, just like in marriage. The wisdom men are learning is that until the system changes they don't want to take the risk. Seems pretty fair to me.
MGTOW complaina about the system and women that have wronged men in the past. They don't complain about women in general.
@nathanp97: If you truly believe people are good at hiding who they are, then you must become an even better detective. For example, some criminals are excellent at covering their tracks, but hard-boiled detectives never give up and stay sharp until they solve their case. MGTOW is not about satisfying needs. It's about airing out frustrations to like-minded men. The divorce rate nowadays is more at 39%, not 50%. Nonetheless, divorce rates are high because many people marry for foolish reasons. For instance, men tend to marry their wife because she is attractive, cooks, cleans, and has a tight pussy, but don't really focus on whether she is loving, caring, kind, and loyal. If anything, foolish husbands typically want a sexy submissive trophy that is good in bed. Women tend to marry their husband because he is attractive, has a good job, good in bed, and is a provider, but ignore whether he is loving, caring, kind, and loyal. If anything, foolish wives typically want a giver rather than a lover. When the looks fade, she stops cooking and cleaning, and the pussy isn't tight as it used to be, or when his looks fade, he gets fired and/or goes bankrupt, can't get it up like he used to, and can't provide for her anymore, because they didn't prioritize love, care, kindness, and loyalty, the relationship is doomed and very likely to end in a divorce or separation. Still, 61% of marriages remain intact for a reason. Maybe these couples married for more wiser reasons. If they can stay together, then you can as well. As for your analogy, well, me having wisdom when choosing partners is akin to me having the knowledge to fix the parachute to make it work 100% of the time instead of 50%.
Marry abroad = Solution.
You are making a call on MGTOW which is something you don't have enough knowledge to give accurate points on and including your judgement that came from your misunderstanding of MGTOW. Since feminism began destroying the family and men, men have been trying to change the laws since 1970 in fact, those men are the MRA's. And what have they been able to accomplish along the way? To the best of my knowledge they were able to fix one minor law is all. This is exactly why MGTOW exist today. You say marriage is risky to everyone. Name one risk marriage is to women, name one. Marriage to men is a funeral with a cake. No men want to play Russian Roulette in a rigged game, would you want to play in that game yourself? And also, have you ever heard of AA? It's better known as Alcoholics Anonymous. It's where men and women alike go to share their bad experiences they've had from alcohol and drug addictions. It's basically the same with MGTOW sharing their bad experiences with other men in order to educate other men to not make the mistake of getting involved with women. And yes, some men are fixing the situation men face in the west, they're moving to eastern countries which is exactly what I'm going to do. Women have spent far too much time trying to define what makes real men putting in no effort to figure out what makes real women. False accusations against men, demonetization and vilification of men and boys, lies against us to push for laws against us, no thanks. That's why millions of man are bailing out going MGTOW all the way around the world and myself about to be a solid 34 year MGTOW Monk I'm in the same situation they are.
@ThisAndThat: I am very knowledgeable about MGTOW. It's an online community devoted to disgruntled men that give up on women because they lack the knowledge and wisdom on how to find a good, compatible partner. Everything you said basically proves my point. Not only are you spending a lot of time complaining about women in many of your opinions, but you're also blaming feminism for men's problems as well. Like I said before, if you prioritize love, care, kindness, and loyalty, and you are able to distinguish whether a woman truly loves you for who you are, you could have a great long-term relationship. If you prioritize things that won't exactly help the relationship over aspects of her personality that result in a long lasting relationship, then you're taking a big risk. What characteristics would make a good wife to you?
I said that marriage can be risky to everyone. As for risks that women have, they could marry potentially violent partners and cheaters. If they marry cheaters, this could put wives at risk for STDs. If they marry violent men, they could be put at risk for domestic abuse and/or murder. According to the statistics, 70% of espousal murder victims are women. However, if a person is actually careful about who they marry, they would have less risks. The problem with MGTOW is that it's not akin to sharing bad experiences regarding alcohol and drug addictions. Unlike them, MGTOW don't seek help. MGTOW completely give up and spend much of their time bickering about something that they desperately want, but otherwise don't have to the wisdom to obtain. They have a very cynical outlook on relationships and, together, they convince themselves that having a happy life with a woman is impossible despite the fact that many people are in good, long lasting relationships as we speak.
@jestergent Why not get a prenup?
Model, prenups only protect what you had before going into marriage. It doesn't protect what you make while together or you having to pay for the girl after a divorce. It also doesn't protect you from loosing custody of your kids. Also even if you get a prenup they can still be thrown out in court and can be thrown out if she falsely accuses you of abusing her.
@nathanp97
@modelun242
Prenuptial agreements aren't even required if people actually knew how to choose the right partner. The problem is that much of these MGTOW guys are very cynical and don't think that it's possible, despite the fact that, these days, most marriages do last. When they do, it's a beautiful thing. Vowing to spend the rest of your life with another person is a huge committent and thus requires a huge application of knowledge, experience, and wisdom to ensure that it happens and that the person is the best candidate for the job. MGTOW only encourages these guys to give up and focus on the negativity. When you realize that a lot of these guys spend much of their online time bickering about women and feminism, you notice many of them truly are unhappy. It's actually heartbreaking to see.
As I said you can't always find the right person people change. Besides I know plenty of people that stay together in bad marriages, and that isn't beautiful. If it is such a huge commitment than women suck at commitment because they initiate most divorces. And the reason marriages aren't ending as much is because less people are getting married, so the people who don't end bad marriages have am increase effect on that percentage. Marriage isn't needed to be happy, and if women want men to marry than the courts need to change. Marriage is still a risk with very little reward for men. Even dating isn't really worth it. You have to plan dates and spend money on them while they don't really offer much in return. If men want sex they can just hire a prostitute once or twice a week and try for one night stands. It would probably cost just as much, you would probably get more sex and wouldn't have to deal with unnecessary drama and you would have more free time
@modelUN242 It's up to judge to decide to respect it or not, in family court. A judge online confessed he tosses the thing in the trash as soon as he gets it. That was enough to convince me its not an option.
“When things get tough, a real man never quits.” Unless were a man in a previous life you are in NO POSITION to say that. You are actually proving why MGTOW exists. Women and especially feminists don’t really give a shit about male issues unless it benefits them somehow.
I’m not quitting by the way. But I would be a liar if I didn’t admit I’m getting very jaded. I could go off on MULTIPLE horrible experiences I’ve had with women over the years. But I will tell you that what women “say” they want vs. what they REALLY want are rarely congruent. It’s more of a giant shit test that most men aren’t born to understand. Some learn and find success. Others take more blows than they can endure.
Your entire premise is off. MGTOW does encourage men to do better. MGTOW don't all avoid involvement with women; we simply think rationally about what happens when either party allows a relationship to stray outside the territory where it's mutually beneficial. Whether it means avoiding contact completely, or sets the limit at casually dating, or somewhere in between, we men are our best selves when we enjoy life and avoid situations that can become toxic to us for reasons outside our control. No need to disrespect anyone for that to work.
@nathanp97: Marriages aren't always going to be perfect. Couples would definitely have their disagreements and arguments as close people often do, but they resolve their issues and continue their relationship. Plenty of people are in great marriages as well, which is a beautiful thing. Your problem is that you focus on negativity too much, something that MGTOW encourages. As I said before, choosing the right person requires wisdom, and genuinely loving, caring, kind, and loyal people don't often stop being loving, caring, kind, and loyal unless they suffer from mental illness. You just have to know how to find that loving, caring, kind, and loyal person, but I am willing to bet that you don't know how to do this and MGTOW doesn't try to teach you.
MGTOW just convinces men that no loving, caring, kind, and loyal women are out there and all relationships are doomed from the start. Yes, women mostly initiate divorce because they're sometimes necessary. Husbands can often be abusive to their wives and disloyal towards them, which could result in a divorce. However, this doesn't mean that hardly any loving, caring, kind, and loyal men exist and that women should avoid marriage. Instead, women should choose better men. The same applies for men too. However, the problem with MGTOW is they don't know how to find that loving, caring, kind, and loyal woman and don't want to learn. They rather spend their time online convincing themselves that such women don't exist or convince themselves that good people change for the worst easily, which isn't true.
@youknowbetter: MGTOW doesn't concern itself with "male issues." It concerns itself with men's personal problems that they downright refuse to solve. Having negative experiences with women in relationships isn't a "male issue;" it's a result of men making poor relationship choices. Many men value a woman's looks, submissiveness, pussy quality, and ability to perform household duties more than they value her love, care, kindness, and loyalty, which would lead to an unhealthy relationship. Instead of actually sorting their priorities in the proper way, they rather convince themselves that relationships are bad for men and join online communities to reaffirm their biases. Also, you can't go by what a person says. Goodness in a person is determined by a person's actions, not just their words. Instead of learning from mistakes, MGTOW doesn't teach men to apply that knowledge learned from negative experiences to make better choices in the future. Instead, it encourages men that better choices regarding women are impossible and, therefore, men should just give up on women altogether, which is foolish and harbors the mindset of a quitter. Like I said, real men are go-getters that solve whatever problems life throws at them, not quitters.
@DCooper: That's the problem. There is never any reason to avoid contact completely. This would only be true if you viewed relationships with women as negative. The truth is that relationships with women aren't harmful for men, but men making poor choices regarding women and making broad sweeping generalizations off those choices are harmful. When coupled with the MGTOW community, it creates a toxic community per se that focuses on misplaced negativity. The possibility also exists that a man could enjoy life and avoid toxicity with a good woman that wants exactly the same thing. However, the problem with MGTOW is that they're convinced that there aren't any good women, they don't know how to find a good woman, and they're not willing to learn. Instead, they literally get online to bicker about women and feminism and not try to improve themselves as men.
So you think MGTOW is about all about victimhood, sympathy for the people who “feel oppressed” and self pity? Funny because I know a few past and current “movements” that tend do the same thing. Difference is they have huge marches wearing pussy hats. MGTOW is literally on reddit, GAG and one lone documentary called “the red pill” which got canceled at theaters caving to feminist woke pressure to shut them down. It’s a good documentary though. It was FAIR. They interviewed both sides. But feminists only want their way or no way.
Again I am NOT MGTOW. I’ve been in relationships and am looking for another. But I have no problem with guys who follow this. They aren’t marching, they aren’t censoring, they aren’t controlling college campuses, they aren’t asking for clemency for murdering their partners because they were battered, they aren’t asking for scholarship money and “gender quotas” in workplace hiring just to meet a quota. They aren’t putting up non confirmed #metoo stories and getting people fired. They are just saying “fuck it I’ll keep to myself”. If you ask them why don’t get pissed at the response.
I just went on a date a few nights ago (it was cheap but I paid). We weren’t really interested in each other but she was respectful. We actually talked openly about the bill split before the date. I said since it was my idea to meet up I’ll pay. But I’ve had women ask me out on dates EXPECTING me to pay before. It’s happened more than once.
But for everyone of her I’ll have more than one disappointment, insult or bad experience for someone else. But I have a LONG list of really shitty experiences. If you want me to list them I will.
But the bottom line is women don’t know what they really want (they will say this and that) and men don’t know what to give them. Funny part is the guys who don’t listen to women and just do as they please often come off as “alpha”, challenge and attractive to women in the early stages.
Tiffany, it isn't that they say there aren't good women out there, but that there aren't a ton of them that would date them or meet other standards they have. Dating as a man often isn't worth it. You are expect to do all the work and spend all the money. Pay for dates, plan dates, ask the women out, etc... why bother trying to find the fee good women out there when you have to deal with all of that other stuff? And even if you think you found a good one, they could just be lying to you.
Side note: men get abused a lot in relationships, even those considered healthy. Why do you think men have man caves and women don't? It is because women in marriage tend to claim the house and the man has to do things to her standards and her way, while the man can, if he is lucky have that one space where he has some resemblance of control.
@youknowbetter: I don't care about feminism. It's 100% irrelevant to this. To put it simply, MGTOW is a lot more than men "keeping to themselves." MGTOW is a community that tries to convince each other and other men that having relationships with women is bad based on their own experiences instead of understanding their experiences are a result of their own poor choices. Instead of taking accountability for those poor choices and learning how to make better choices, they instead choose to give up on relationships and spend much of their time being vitriolic towards women online. It shows that they actually want women's attention, but they're too cynical and convinced that finding a good woman is impossible. I had plenty of negative experiences dating guys too. I have been taken advantage of, cheated on, used for sex and then ghosted, beaten, and humiliated/shamed by past ex-boyfriends. However, I was never once convinced that good relationships with men were impossible, nor did I ever want to "go my own way" from men. I realized that everything that happened to me was a result of my own poor dating choices. As a result, I never gave up on men; I simply changed my dating priorities and actually looked for qualities in men that could lead to a lasting long-term relationship. If I had stayed single because I believed that relationships with men were harmful for me and I spent the rest of my life online bickering about men because of my own poor choices, it wouldn't have helped me.
@nathanp97
"Dating as a man often isn't worth it. You are expect to do all the work and spend all the money. Pay for dates, plan dates, ask the women out, etc... why bother trying to find the fee good women out there when you have to deal with all of that other stuff? And even if you think you found a good one, they could just be lying to you."
This sounds more like a personal problem rather than a general man's problem. You're literally complaining about having to work, spend money, and approach women. There are plenty of men in the world that don't take issue doing any of this. Yes, men should be expected to pay for the dates. However, if you're with the right woman, you shouldn't have to spend too much. Dating is worth it because it's with the dates, time spent together, and conversations that you uncover whether or not this woman truly loves you for you and if she is genuinely kind, loving, caring, and loyal. To determine if this truly applies to her, you have to go by her actions, not just her words. As I said many times, determining this requires a lot of wisdom and the ability to apply knowledge from experience.
"Side note: men get abused a lot in relationships, even those considered healthy."
Abusive relationships are not healthy relationships. They're toxic. Abuse happens due to poor dating choices.
@nathanp97
"Why do you think men have man caves and women don't? It is because women in marriage tend to claim the house and the man has to do things to her standards and her way, while the man can, if he is lucky have that one space where he has some resemblance of control."
Or maybe it's just a place for guys to hang out and bring their friends over, where they can play their games, smoke, drink, and party without having their company all over the rest of the house? That's what my fiancee uses his man-cave for. Also, women do have "man caves." They're actually called "she sheds." I have one. It has nothing to do with a lack of control. It's just literally good places to have company over and personal alone time. Nothing is wrong with that. Also, the problems you're talking about, again, sound like personal problems. It sounds like you're referring to a man that wound up with a very controlling woman. Not all women are like that.
Men shouldn't be expected to due those things because they don't get anything in return. Women don't really seem to bring anything to the table. Personally, I always split the bill or do the I've got this one and you can get the next. If a women has a problem with that then I've just dodged a bullet, because that is a sign of selfishness and I can't tolerate people like that. Women expect men to pay, yet if a men then expects sex he is a sexist.
My abuse point was to add to yours about how women end marriage due to abuse. It wants men as a stand alone random point.
It is a place for the men to hange out, but that's because they can't do what they want outside of it. (Also not many men smoke inside.) For instance, why can't the living room be used to due all those things? Often because they wouldn't be able too. Most women don't have she sheds because they just take up the house, and lots don't really like them. Especially if they are actually sheds outside the house because it makes them feel excluded.
There is actually a TV show, "last man standing," that talks about it.
Almost all women are controlling. Basically every man has at least one story about how controlling/crazy their wife is. Some men get taught by their wife that a dishwasher has to be loaded a specific way, others that you have to use costers, etc... you don't really hear men ever telling women what they need to do in the house.
I still think MGTOW is the best thing for men and I also think that what you have said is a huge pile of horse shit.
A good friend of mine on here had the best line ever a few weeks ago. “Modern feminism is nothing more then one giant shit test for me”. Seems snarky but he’s right. The problem is they have so much power to brainwash young kids, destroy men they don’t like and have their cake and eat it too. Guys going MGTOW are just saying “the hell with getting a relationship with someone like that”. I don’t blame them.
@nathanp97: Men do get something in return for paying for dates. A good way for a woman to determine if the man truly cares about her is if he's willing to pay. If not, then she makes it easier for her to be taken advantage of. Women bring a lot to the table in relationships. As I said, if you chose the right woman, the woman that you selected would bring love, care, kindness, and loyalty to the table. These are the four main things that everybody should want brought to the table because they make relationships last. Splitting the bill isn't bad either, but I personally believe that a woman shouldn't start paying for dates until the man proves that he is serious. The reason is because it's too common for men to ghost women after having sex. It happened to me too many times when I used to pay for dates. If a woman pays for the dates, finally has sex with the guy, and then she never hears from the guy again, then it's a lose/lose situation for the woman and a win/win situation for the guy. That's why I strongly believe that women should not pay for the first initial dates, especially if she doesn't know the guy. Once the man proves that he is indeed kind, loving, caring, and loyal, it would be safer for her to pay for him.
@nathanp97: As for the man-cave thing, it's a place for the men to hang out. Nothing more, nothing less. Not everybody is the same. Some people do use the living room for company. However, certain things are better done in a man-cave as opposed to a living room. Some men don't even have man-caves. Not every woman is controlling. Ultimately, it boils down to the person that you chose to marry. If you chose to marry a woman that has respect for your freedom, as long as that freedom doesn't threaten the health and stability of the relationship, then you wouldn't have any of these issues. Again, it sounds like most of your problems are personal, not something that negatively affects the general man. Understanding that not every woman is as negative as you think could ultimately change your view, but as I said, it requires a lot of wisdom to find that woman. Instead of putting in the work to obtain that wisdom and do your due diligence to improve your chances of finding that woman, you just avoid women altogether based on negative broad sweeping generalizations. That's not what real men do; that's what quitters do, and that sums up the entire MGTOW movement. It's a group of male quitters that blame women and feminism for their own poor choices that they refuse to improve upon.
@Stephen_77: If that were true Stephen, then MGTOW wouldn't be this huge online community devoted to disparaging women. If MGTOW was truly the best thing for men, they would just be enjoying their single lives. However, by spending most of their time online bickering about women and relationships, they're actually proving that they're miserable without them.
Tiffany, those 4 things you said women bring men due to, in addition to paying and planning dates. What do women bring thsg men don't? I believe relationship should be 50/50. and no I dont necessarily mean both have to pay equally if one can't afford it, but that that person should make it up another way.
You do realize a decent amount of men expect sex if they pay. The idea would be you split the bill, so you would both pay and the idea is that you would actually enjoy the sex, which would be the reason you had it in the first place. So why should the guy pay for a girl who 9 times out of ten won't want a relationship out of it? If you expect the man to pay he won't have the money to meet more women to try and find the one because he is stuck paying for women who aren't. I feel like you are just justifying women being cheap.
MGTOW is more like AA. Men complain about what they experienced and avoid it because it is bad for them, or create a different relationship with women, eg. Sex only.
@nathanp97: It's not about what women bring to the table that men don't bring. It's about both men and women bringing those four things genuinely. Yes, relationships should be 50/50. However, in the initial phases of the relationship, you ought to determine whether the person you're dating is capable of bringing those four things and if they don't have ill intentions. A woman, under no circumstances, should ever pay for a man to man to take advantage of her. If a woman splits the bill early without knowing the guy or his intentions, she makes it easier for him to take advantage of her because, then, he doesn't have to sacrifice as much to use her. This makes it easier for him to ghost her after sex for the first time. The goal is to find a good long-term partner. Once she has established that the man is actually dating her for her and not her pussy, then it would be safer for her to pay. When I say that wisdom is required to find a good relationship, women have to be wise as well because men can also have ill intentions when dating. Paying makes it easier for him to do those ill intentions. If the man has no problem paying in full more than once, then I'm more convinced that he's likely not using me. I get what MGTOW is. It's a place for complaining about negative experiences with women and quitting rather than actually helping each other make better dating decisions. Very toxic community that doesn't help men mend their wounds. It only adds more salt.
@Tiffany_Taylor_Made As usual you're a woman who doesn't understand MGTOW. Of course the men in MGTOW, deep down, want women. It's a natural desire for men and women to want love, sex, and commitment. But MGTOW are men that, for whatever reason, can't trust women or are too afraid to commit to them. It's women and the legal system that have driven a lot of men to MGTOW. So put yourself in their shoes for a moment. Imagine being in a situation where you strongly desire something, but you're too afraid to go for it because you know it might end up hurting you. Imagine craving a drug but being too afraid to do it because of the damage it might do. In time you will come to hate the drug because it's like a thorn in the flesh. The problem is that women don't try to understand why MGTOW feel the way they do, or that they might have good reason to be angry and bitter towards women. They just want to label MGTOW as a bunch of incels or cry babies who can't be bothered to take responsibility. It's true that there's bound to be some men in MGTOW who are incels who are angry because they can't get laid. It's shades of grey. But also there's gonna be many men in MGTOW who have good reason for giving up on women and being angry about them. I've never claimed that MGTOW will necessarily make men happy. But MGTOW will definitely protect men from getting hurt by a woman and losing their house and life savings, or the pain of losing their children. But yer, of course a lot of men in MGTOW will complain about women online. Maybe they have good reason to. Deep down they probably do want a woman, it's just women are the ones that have destroyed their trust and confidence, and so they have a good reason to hate them and be angry.
@Stephen_77: MGTOW can't trust women and/or are afraid of commitment because they negatively judge all or most women based on their own negative experiences with women. Instead of realizing they made poor choices, they convince themselves that their own bad experiences represent all relationships with women and avoid them. I'm not convinced MGTOW have good reason to be bitter towards women. I'm more convinced MGTOW should be bitter only towards the women they had negative experiences with because the many good women seeking long-term relationships are irrelevant to their bad experiences. I actually can walk MGTOW's shoes, as men aren't the only ones that can have negative relationships. I've been in similar situations to MGTOW, where I had plenty bad experiences with men. As I said, I had exes that beat me, cheated on me, humiliated me, insulted certain body parts of mine, took advantage of me, tried controlling me, and used me for sex then ghosted me.
However, never once did I quit men because I knew that the negative men I dated didn't represent them all. Plenty good men exist. However, to find those good men, I realized I had to become wiser and change my priorities in men. I understood love, care, kindness, and loyalty are what makes long-term relationships last. Thus, when I started dating wiser, I learned from my past experiences and constantly checked for these characteristics in my dates. When I did that, I had much better, less toxic relationships. Now, I'm engaged to a great man. The problem with MGTOW is they don't even remotely attempt to become wiser to help find that woman they want deep down. Instead, they strongly convince themselves that their negative personal experiences entail ecumenical truths about women, and they just give up. It proves that MGTOW are men that quit whenever they face a challenge and place the blame on women and feminism without taking accountability for their own mistakes.
You are comparing you to not quitting men. However you being female, it's not you that faces an entire system that's against you, it's instead for you. It's completely the opposite for men. All of western society and the entire western system is against men. If you were a man or boy for that matter, you wouldn't want to play Russian Roulette with a completely loaded gun either. It doesn't matter if there are good women out there or not. It's still the same system and all women have the potential to use the system against men and men know it too. Face it, you wouldn't commit to a woman if you were a man either knowing the odds that were stacked against you, you simply wouldn't do it.
@Tiffany_Taylor_Made Well as a MGTOW I've never claimed that every single female on the planet is bad. My point has always been that the odds are too risky. The legal system today is stacked against men and has made dating women risky and dangerous. Men don't have crystal balls. We can't read women's minds. We don't know which ones are going to be loyal and which was are going to be disloyal.
The problem is men are bring more to the table, so why bother. The relationship isn't 50/50 right from the start.
The man paying is the women taking advantage of him. It is her using him for a free meal. Paying makes it easier for the women to ghost him after he pays. If the goal is to find a long term partner you are taking away the ability of men to find one when they have to pay because they can't afford to go on as many dates if they are always paying for 2 people. It sounds like the simple solution is for women not to have sex right away. Men won't wait a month of going on dates with a woman just fo sex, when others will have a one night stand.
Some MGTOW members are toxic just like some feminists are, but generally speaking it is about talking about what has happened to them and taking advantage of the system so they aren't taken advantage of again.
They realize they made a poor choice, so that's why they stopped. The system is rigged, so the poor choice is playing along. Most MGTOW isn't men bashing all women. It is men talking about their experiences and realizing a general pattern with women and avoiding it.
MGTOW aren't quitters. They changed the rules of the game to benefit them. Eg. Going for sex not relationship. They recognize they made a mistake of bothering to go after relationship with women, and there solution is not go after sex instead. When thr system is rigged you change the rules to benefit you.
@ThisAndThat: It has absolutely nothing to do with me being female or any "system." No "system" could ever stop me from being a go-getter. I didn't quit men solely because I knew that my own negative experiences didn't represent all men. That meant the chances are great that I could find a man that wouldn't be "risky" to date or marry. The same thing applies to men. The only "system" that is against the men you speak of is their own foolishness. As I said many times, if you find the right person for you, no risk would exist. Don't just marry any woman because she cooks, cleans, looks good, and does certain things in bed. Date or marry based on love, care, kindness, and loyalty. If you do that and those qualities are genuine, the "system" can't hurt you. This is basic wisdom. I'm surprised that someone 56 years old can't fathom it.
@Stephen_77: If you sincerely believe that not every single female is bad, then you have no real reason to be MGTOW. Instead, if love, sex, and commitment is something that you truly want with a woman, your goal should be to find one of those women that aren't bad. However, because we live in a society where foolishness is common from both genders, resulting in many people wanting to marry for ridiculous reasons and/or to take advantage of each other, it simply requires more wisdom to locate that good person you seek. No one said that it was easy, nor did anybody say the ride would be smooth. Everybody goes through hardships, but it's the fact that we deal with those hardships so that we can fulfill our goals. MGTOW is simply a movement that encourages men to give up and paint this false narrative that all or most women are the problem, a falsehood that discourages men from seeking a woman's love that they truly want deep down. Lose that quitter mindset, wise up, and be that go-getter that you were meant to be.
@Stephen_77: You're right, Stephen. People can't read minds. However, we can make inferences to determine whether or not a person is loyal. A great way to tell if your partner is loyal is if they consistently keep their promises. This could be in regards to anything, not just you. If you pay attention to your woman and you notice that she constantly fulfills her promises in nearly every facet of her life, then you can strongly infer that she is a genuinely loyal person and is very likely to be loyal to you. Another way to test loyalty is if they are devoted to their convictions. For example, if they are the type to not smoke, drink, or engage in any illegal activity and they refuse to do any of these things even under pressure, then they're likely to be devoted to you as well. However, if this person was the type to constantly break promises and their own convictions, meaning that they don't care much about others and their own morals, then what do you think chances of them committing to and caring about you are? Slim to none. It's looking for things like this and many others in relationships that help you determine if you have a good partner or not.
@Tiffany_Taylor_Made I still think it's too risky. In my life I've known quite a few cases where good men (because I know them personally) had been with their girlfriend or wife for many years and they were convinced that their woman was devoted to them. But these women eventually ended up cheating on them or leaving them for another man. Some of these men were so shocked and heartbroken that they nearly had a nervous breakdown. That's the thing with women, they are very unpredictable. A man may be convinced that his woman is one of those good loyal women, only to discover that it was all an act. It's not as simple as telling men to try harder to find a better woman, because women are very good at hiding their true colours and hiding their true motives. And the way the legal system is stacked against men, I just don't think it's worth the risk.
Not only that but another thing that pisses me off about women is that most women still expect men to do the approaching and the chasing. Women today are way too picky and choosy, and they usually end up choosing the bad boys anyway, just for the fun and excitement. I hate everything about the way women are these days. I just can't bare the thought of me being with them. I'm 36 and have been single since I was 20 and I'm dedicated to sticking to my guns. It's women who have made me feel the way I do and so MGTOW is the best thing for me.
@nathanp97: No, the problem is men and women typically bring wrong things to the table. As I said many times, men and women should only focus on bringing love, care, kindness, and loyalty to the table. A man paying for a woman is not him being used. When a man approaches a woman, his primary goal is to penetrate her. In this culture, a woman has no clue if that man only wants sex or long-term relationship, as it's common for men to value sex over commitment. Thus, she must first do that vital due diligence. When men that only value pussy notices a woman that pays for dates, they're more likely to approach her to take advantage of that. A man wanting more than sex is often willing to pay in full. Once he proves he values her more than sex, the woman can wisely pay for dates with him. While I don't condone women using men, a "free meal" isn't a major loss.
However, manipulating her into thinking a special connection existed, only to be ghosted after sex is a more crushing blow, especially after funding that entire ordeal by paying for him. A woman paying for a guy potentially only wanting pussy isn't wise. The "simple solution" is not to have sex initially. That's potentially harmful. A woman has to learn her partner well through various dates and extensive conversations before sex. Sex should only be done with proven good men. From reading various MGTOW forums, websites, Reddit posts, GAG posts, and watching many videos, much of MGTOW is devoted to vilifying women, not merely sharing experiences. The main reason a "pattern" exists with women is because MGTOW lack the wisdom to choose the proper woman. When a man desires a relationship, but avoids relationships based on his own poor choices with women, he quit. A man opting only for sex without attempting to be wiser and choose better likely never cared about relationships anyway. This is why women should be more careful and let men pay in full for dates.
@Stephen_77: Get rid of that "it's too risky" mindset and "it's not as simple as" mindset. It only encourages you to be a quitter, which is what MGTOW is all about. Go-getters take risks and realize that not everything they want to obtain is simple. The women that you mentioned that were with your friends probably weren't good women at the start. They don't represent all or most women and the possibility still exists that a man could find a genuinely good woman as long as he knows how to look for them and/or is willing to learn. It's about more than telling a man to choose better; he has to be willing to learn how to make better choices. MGTOW doesn't teach that. It teaches that women are the devil and avoiding them is Heaven. You having an issue with approaching women is a personal problem rather than a general man problem. Plenty of men have no problem approaching women.
It's mainly the men that lack confidence that hate approaching women and men that lack confidence are unlikely to maintain healthy relationships. They're more likely to be taken advantage of and unlikely to protect/support their family. As a result, men should approach because it's a great way to measure his confidence. A man that is scared to approach women is probably afraid of many other things in life, which could potentially lead to him becoming MGTOW. The problem is that foolishness is common with women regarding relationships, as it is with men. These "bad boys" are good at taking advantage of women's foolishness to achieve their goals. Yet, that doesn't mean that all or most men are "bad boys" and that women should go their own way. As I said, choosing partners wiser could cure that. However, men make poor choices as well. Just as women end up getting fooled by "bad boys," men that go MGTOW have bad experiences based on their own poor choices too.
@Stephen_77: Still, I noticed a pattern with you in your comments. With you constantly saying "it's too risky," "it's not as simple as," and your disdain for approaching women, you just don't want to take chances and put in effort to get what you want. You want everything to be easy for you when life doesn't work that way. No wonder you were single for 16 years. You took the easy way out and just gave up completely on the love you wanted deep down. You got involved with the MGTOW movement to convince yourself that women are the problem rather than your own lack of drive, lack of wisdom, and fear of failure. It proves my point. MGTOW doesn't help men. It just turns them into quitters and encourages vitriol towards women.
The man is being used for a free meal. You have a very mest up definition of what being used means. A man has no clue if the women wants a relationship or free food. Most men dont approach women just for sex. If it is that much of a worry than dont have sex for 1-2 months into dating them. A man won't wait that long when he can get sex else were for less effort and time. You also act as if sex isn't good for women and it is just s chore. I am also saying to split the bill, so it's fair, not pay for the whole things, but they can if they want.
In this economy it is a major loss. Of a women won't pay for her half or by the second date there won't be another one.
@Tiffany_Taylor_Made What you say would only make sense if we were living in the olden days when women were good quality women. But times have changed. Men are no longer obligated to fulfil their roles as a man. More and more men are waking up to the fact that most women today do not offer a good deal and that it's better to go their own way. In most cases it's the woman that ends the relationship, so the odds are not in men's favour. Women today have just become lazy animals and my role as a man in todays society is to live for myself and do as I please. Women can do whatever they want but they are of no concern to me.
@nathanp97: The chances of a woman wanting a man just for food is low. It's much easier in life for a woman to get food than it is for a man to get sex. Chances are, if she doesn't want to see you again, she most likely didn't like you. If you have a problem paying for the date, then you likely never wanted to go out in the first place. Going out to have fun with someone costs money, as do many other things. That's life. In this instance, after paying for a date, the most that you lose is a few dollars if you don't see her again. Still, it was beneficial because you still spend money to enjoy yourself too. The problem is you have this entitlement mentality that MGTOW encourages where you go on dates demanding a good outcome simply because you spent money. If you do have this mentality, then maybe whores are better for you. However, understand that this is a personal problem, not an issue that women are giving you.
In life, either things go how you want or not. Yes, most men do indeed approach women for sex. They notice a woman that they're attracted to and they approach her with hopes of dating her until he gets his chance to have sex. If you disagree, then you clearly don't get out much. No one expect a nun would a nun would wait two months for sex. It's not about holding sex off. It's about determining whether or not it's about more than just sex. Men ghosting women after sex is a common practice. Because of this, if you expect a woman to pay, you should understand that it would be wiser for her to determine if this man can bring more to the table than just his dick A woman paying for dates and then being left after sex is a much bigger loss than a woman getting a free meal. Splitting the bill for him makes it less of a sacrifice for him. That's why dating should be the man approaching and proving to her that he has more to offer than just sex. Once he has successfully proved that, then women are unlikely to suffer that major loss after she pays for him in return.
It actually happens quite a bit. I couldn't find the video that had a women doing this for basically every dinner, but here is a news segment about it. https://youtu.be/hne-QOvfUBY
I want to go out, but I dont want to spend more money than I have to. Eg. I dont go out with friends and pay for them too. A few dollars. A meal would be at least 10 dollars extra assuming she doesn't order drinks. The problem is when you spend money to enjoy yourself it isn't supposed to be spend on some stranger it is supposed to be spend on you. I'd rather have that extra money to spend on myself than some women who I will likely never see again.
I dont demand a good outcome, men are just getting tired of paying for dates to have bad outcomes when women work now too, and are so big on equality. The hypocrisy is real.
It really depends on the type of man, lots of men dont just want sex and the fact that giu think that shows that you keep choosing the wrong men. Perhaps you should change or preferences😜. If you dont want to hold sex off then you just proved mu point that you want to have sex too, and it isn't just men, so stop using that as an excuse not to pay. + women use men for sex too. You aren't paying for the man, you are paying for yourself. Were you not taught to pay your own way in the world and be independent?
Women who don't pay are just hypocrites, who only want the good parts of being both sexes, but none of the responsibilities.
@Tiffany_Taylor_Made If we were living in the olden days where it was mostly men who were working, then I agree that the man should pay. But we live in an age where women are working and many of them earn even more than men, so why the hell should men still be expected to pay for the meal? It's this self entitled mentality that women have that turn a lot of men off. Men shouldn't have to follow traditional roles. If I were to say that women are the ones that should stay at home and cook and clean, would you agree with that? Of course you wouldn't. Yet women still expect men to pay for dates and do the approaching and pursuing. Fuck you self entitled females.
@Stephen_77: Stephen, we live in a society where men commonly use women for sex or only approach us for that reason. If a woman pays for the initial dates with a man, she makes it easier for men to take advantage of her. When a guy asks us out, we are unaware if he truly wants a long-term relationship or just our pussy. Men that sincerely want to be with us are more likely to make sacrifices. Paying in full to spend time with us when they could have spent money on something else is a sacrifice. However, me paying in full for a man that very likely only wants sex is foolish. When I was in college, I used to pay for dates. It felt good to be different, but I realized that these guys ghosted me after sex. More guys asked me out, but would also do the same thing. I felt terrible because not only was I used for sex, but I also practically funded my own foolishness. I learned the hard way that if men know you're a girl that pays for dates, those that use women for sex would take full advantage of that offer. However, a man that is willing to pay in full for dates more likely wants a serious relationship compared to a man that doesn't want to pay. Therefore, any wise woman would let the man pay in full. It's not about being self-entitled. It's about being wise because can have ill intentions as well. After the man proved himself to be loving, caring, kind, and loyal, as well as serious, she could then pay for him safely in return.
@Tiffany_Taylor_Made And that is complete bullshit. There's plenty of men that pay for dates that are only looking for sex. And I never said the woman should pay for it all. I believe it should be 50/50. And like I said, there's plenty of men that are willing to pay for the date who are only looking for sex. Women just come up with all these bullshit excuses.
@nathanp97: Nate, your video didn't show me that this happens "quite a bit." I'm aware some women do date for free meals, hence me saying the chances are low. However, the video only said a study was conducted by two researchers. Until you can produce some evidence on how many women were sampled for this study, I'm not convinced this is a common issue. Even if it was, a "free meal" isn't a major loss. If you're spending your rent or home loan on food dates, then you're a fool, plain and simple. When you're on a date, you're not trying to spend money on "some stranger." You're trying to show the woman that you have feelings for that you're a good man that wants to commit to her. It's her job to figure out if that's what you truly want or if you just want sex. Until she figures that out, it's wiser for you to pay in full. If you chose the right woman, then you wouldn't have to spend much and she wouldn't be upset about it.
Thus, if she does decide not to see you again, you didn't lose much. Just as you say that lots of men don't just want sex, lots of women don't just want free food either. Yes, I was choosing the wrong men back then. I also never said I didn't want sex. I just don't want to be used and lied to for sex. I want sex with a long-term committing partner. Therefore, if a guy does intend to use me, I make it harder for him by making him pay in full. However, I make better choices now. I have a fiancee now who is a great guy. Still, I never once considered "going my own way" despite being used by men because I loved men too much. I simply got wiser and made better choices, something that MGTOW need to do as well. I do pay my own way in the world, but I also believe in companionship and teamwork. I believe we should help each other out more instead focusing purely on being independent.
You are making a man assumption that men know they like the women already and women need to find out if they do. If you are going on a date it is because you see something in another person that you like, and the date is to find out if you have a connection, for both people. I'm never goi6to pay for someone, because most dates dont go past the first few and it ends up being a waste of money for the guy. Girls have nothing to loose on dates, while guys do.
@nathanp97: No, I'm saying that men approach women because they find them attractive and want sex with them. It's possible that man could want a long-term relationship or he could be a player type. Because he's a stranger, the woman clearly doesn't know his true intentions. Thus, if she were wise, she would let him pay for the dates in full while she learns him through those dates. If he has an issue with paying in full, then he likely wasn't the right man to begin with. If he does turn out to be a player that just wanted sex, at least he gave up something before he decided to move on. I agree with you that dating should be about finding out if you have a connection with the person you like, but wisdom tells you that people, women or men, have ill intentions as well when dating. It's up to you to find out what these intentions are and protect yourself in the process. If most of your dates don't go past the first few, then that's more likely a personal problem. Maybe there is something about you that turned off your date. If you considered it a "waste of money," then you never wanted to date in the first place. MGTOW needs to understand that not every outcome would be a perfect one. Man up, take some risks, and improve yourself to increase the chances of getting what you want.
@Stephen_77: I understand that some men still pay in full while wanting only sex. If that does turn out to be the case, then it's a fair trade. He got the sex that he wanted with the woman through being deceptive and she didn't lose anything behind it. That's pretty fair compared to him using her for sex and having her pay for it. Still, a man that is more willing to pay in full for all the initial dates is still more likely to be in it for the long term compared to a man that doesn't want to pay. As for splitting 50/50, that can be good if you know your date well, such as if you're dating a woman that was once a good friend of yours. However, if not that, doing that just makes it a little easier for the man to take advantage of the woman because he then only has to be 50% less of what he should have paid. I say that if the man does decide to stick around after sex and then he proved himself to be a good reliable man, then the woman could start paying 50/50. If he still sticks around and shows that he's a great man, the woman could safely start paying in full.
@Tiffany_Taylor_Made Well if that's what you truly believe then I think you're barking mad. Even more proof that women are crazy and that MGTOW is the best option.
@Stephen_77: It's something that I experienced personally. I literally had guys take advantage of me solely because I would pay for dates. When I later strictly made it clear that any man that takes me out would pay in full, me being used by men happened much less often. The men that absolutely had no problem paying for those initial dates turned out to be most honest ones. The ones that had a problem and refused to date me likely never cared about me in the first place. This isn't craziness. It's basic wisdom. Wisdom is gaining knowledge from past experiences and knowing how to apply that knowledge to present situations so you can avoid making the same mistakes as you did in the past. It's something that MGTOW really needs to look into instead of quitting.
Well I don't believe you
@Stephen_77: You don't believe it because you successfully convinced yourself that only women are to blame for relationships going bad and that men can do no wrong. That's MGTOW dogma.
@nathanp97 and what resources do you have that state most women initiate divorces? And most men lose their house? Alimony doesn't last forever, only a couple years.
@Tiffany_Taylor_Made honey, you know nothing about abusive relationships. You can't blame the victim and CA them fools for being in them.
Abusive men know how to strip a woman from all her self-worth and independence until he becomes the only thing she can relay on. You have no idea what psychological abuse can do to someone. It's not like these guys are hitting the girl on the first date before the girls emotions are involved.
@nathanp97 you can't blame the system for declining marriage rates because there was barely any divorce in the 50s and women had more power in child custody and alimony back then
@ThisAndThat how did feminism destroy men and family? If anything, feminism is the reason why child custody is more equal than it was before feminism when the woman got full custody in divorce.
And do you know what happened to divorced women before feminism? They were outcastes by society and labeled as whores. They were seen as solely at fault for the divorce and no guy would marry them after that.
Women have plenty to lose in a divorce. After the divorce, they are now much older, less attractive and it becomes much harder to find another man, whereas a man can still find women at any age because older men are seen as valuable.
And if the woman makes more money than the man, he gets alimony, not her.
@nathanp97 funny how you are more content spending money on prostitutes than marriage, when you would lose less in alimony than on hookers.
The fact that you find planning dates as a chore shows me what kind of guy you are.
It's fine if you want to go your own way, but don't blame women for your problems
@nathanp97 so you want to reverse feminism, but you don't want to pay for dates?
Before feminism, women weren't allowed to go to school for high paying jobs, so they were stuck in secretary positions and men made all the money.
Sounds like feminism has helped you more than hurt you, because before it, men paid everything for the woman
@nathanp97 if men expect sex just because they paid for a first date, then they should just get a hooker.
You act like men are so innocent when it comes to sex. The truth is, if a woman has sex with a man right away, chances of him calling her again are close to zero.
Paying for dates is an easy way for a woman to see if a guy is serious about her because the guy who just wants sex won't take a woman out on a nice date or spend money on her.
If you feel that a girl is using you for a free dinner, then don't take her out again. Simple.
@Broken_doll: I've been in abusive relationships before, so I'm pretty familiar with how they work. Please don't tell me that I don't know about what I've actually been through. As I mentioned before to these MGTOW guys that were replying to me, the best way to avoid abusive relationships is to be wise about who you date. Focus on a man's kind, loving, caring, and loyal nature. You can get a sense of if your man is abusive based on how he treats others and the reputation that his peers give him. Is he quick to anger? Does he have a criminal record, and if so, has he been charged with "assault on a female?" Have his exes accused him of abuse? What do his friends and family say about him? Does he often speak/act violently? Case in point, if he is known for mistreating other people, then he wouldn't be too far from mistreating you as well. Women that don't do their due diligence on uncovering whether the man is kind is putting herself in danger. Therefore, yes, some of the blame has to be placed on her too. She would be even more foolish if he actually did abuse her and she stayed with him. At the end of the day, your own well-being is more important than any man.
Broken, MGTOW actually talks a lot about how a hooker is cheaper. Lol. Alimony, which is based of the idea of maintaining standard of living for her and half your money you acquired before and after getting married is a lot more than a hooker.
Planning every date becomes a chore. Having to do the same thing over and over again becomes a thankless job. I blame women for being cheap and sexist when it comes to dating and the system for being corrupt when it comes to marriage. What you are doing now is victim blaming.
2. i dont want to reverse feminism. I never said that. I just want women to actually stop being hypocrites about it and want full equality and not just the best parts of both sexes and non of the responsibilities. The problem is men payed back then because women didn't make money, but the idea was you would have someone to cook, clean and look after the kids after only a year max of dating. Thst doesn't happen now, so women should pay. It is called equality.
3. The hooker would probably be cheaper. Lots of guys who pay for dates expect sex. You can take that idea off the table when you pay. You underestimate what guys who want sex will do. The problem is you can't always tell and you are wasting money just to find out. My aunt actually does this stuff and people dont notice.
The symbol solution is that women grow up, stop being hypocrites and pay their own way in the world.
@nathanp97 men want sex and women want relationships. When a man pays for the first couple dates, it's not to use him for money lol it's to see if he is serious about you and wants more than sex. It's a way to measure it. I've paid for first dates when I knew that the man was broke. That's an exception.
I have also been in relationships where I made more money than the man and I put the most money in the relationships, and he still expected me to cook and clean. So I can easily say men are useless too, but I don't because everyone has something to bring to the table, you just seem to think it's all about money.
And do you even know alimony laws or are you going by the propaganda you read on male rights threads. Whoever makes more money pays out more. So if you are worried about this, then find a girl who makes more money than you
@Tiffany_Taylor_Made you can speak based on your own experiences, but you cannot speak for women in general who get involved in abusive relationships. Many of these women were abused by their fathers to begin with, so they do not know what separates a good guy from a bad guy. They are completely desensitized to the behavior.
and not all men show abusive signs right away. A lot of them are very good citizens who have great friends and treat people well in public. My ex was one of them and I was abused emotionally, which I think is worse than being physically abused because the psychological damage causes you to turn on yourself and become suicidal
Men want relationship, and women want sex too. It just depends on the individual's, wants and needs. Many men are serious about only wanting sex and will pay for a meal for it. And a women splitting can be used to determine that she is serious about the relationship and doesn't just want a free meal. At the end of the day a relationship is what to individuals can give to eachother. If men are expect to bring money, as well as all the normal relationships stuff, than what are women bringing? We live in a world now where women dont need to cook, clean, etc... so what do they truly offer? If they flit thr bill things would be more equal, and if I'm not mistaken feminism is supposed to be about gender equality.
I understand alimony laws. Men tend to make more, so they more often have to pay. Men often get shamed by people particularly women, when they claim alimony. The problem with alimony is they care about maintaining the others standard of living, but not that individual that is paying.
If women are supposed to be so independent now, why are they expecting men to pay for dates, collecting money from the man after a divorce and taking half of everything, even when they don't contribute financially to the relationship? Why should men seek relationship when the courts are against them. Even outside of money they often don't get custody of the kids, despite 50/50 custody supposed to being done whenever possible.
Courts need to change and the sexist standards imposed on men need to change. They have been with women, but not with men.
Any man or woman that finds attrositys with theyre born idenity and expressing themselfs towards others have a serious problem with themselfs first & foremost. Why should any one of us claim our time is more important than the other. Why should either one of us have to pay to express our chemistry with one another. Feminist and mgtows are selling themselfs under a value system entirely constructed through the province of monatary gain depicting and depending on theyre own rules constructed by themselfs as well along with judicial findings , winnings and an apolitical corrected summons of garbage that mocks the very sentiment of theyre own creation. Men and women are just men and women , get over it. Your no more special in any regards than the other.
@Broken_doll: The point of my previous comment to you was about gaining wisdom, which means to apply knowledge from past experiences and/or common sense to help avoid making the same mistakes. Yes, these were my personal experiences, but the point is that my personal experiences taught me how to make better choices in life, and other women can do the same because we all have personal experiences. You claim that because some women were abused by their fathers, they don't know how to discern a good guy from a bad guy. Well, if so, they need to learn based on their experiences and common sense. Based on common sense, we know that good guys are not abusive, tend to keep their promises, treat others with respect, and care about us. They're willing to help us when we're in need and they are willing to make sacrifices to be with us. You also want to uncover if his kindness with others is genuine. If you find that he is the type to act kind but not actually be kind, then he's likely acting with you too. Sometimes, they might not show their abusive nature right away as you said, but they always show other potential signs that can indicate an abusive personality, such as an aggressive personality, bouts of anger, chauvinist speech, etc. I refuse to endanger myself by convincing myself that some men are just too good at hiding their abusive nature. If I do that, then I basically allow myself to continue being a victim under the notion that's hard to tell if the guy is truly good. If that's the case, then my goal is to be an even better detective. Other women should and could do the same thing.
@nathanp97: When I talk about paying, that's about creating a fair trade if his intentions were for using me for sex. It's fair because he gets the sex that he wanted all along, but he gave up something to get it. My responses to @Broken_doll are about abuse. Having him pay for dates doesn't prevent abuse. If anything, a truly abusive man is more likely to be abusive if he has to pay, but doesn't want to. Of those four thing I mentioned often, kindness is what you check for to determine abusive personality.
@nathanp97: A man that intends to use a woman that seeks long-term relationships for sex isn't likely to want sex after the first date. Most of them wouldn't even accept, as they could easily move on to a sluttier woman and save their money. As well, any self-respecting woman that wants a long-term relationship wouldn't have sex after the first date with a guy she doesn't know. Paying for the date in full is a check for "care," one of the four things I mentioned. Guys that approach you to go out with you, but don't want to pay a dime for it you clearly don't care about you. He's mainly focused on what's between your legs. Why do you think that most men don't want to pay for dates?
@Tiffany_Taylor_Made Call it what you like. I don't give a shit.
If paying shows that men care than what do women do to show that they care?
Most of the time you need to go on a date to have sex with a women. You can sometimes just go to a bar and pick someone up, but other times a first date is necessary, especially if you meet online.
If a women won't give sex after a first date if she wants a relationship, then why does she still expect him to pay. That isn't snowing that she cares for him. And based off you logic he should move on because she isn't showing 1 of the 4 values you mentioned.
As a man, I don't want to pay because it is a waste of money to keep having to pay for dates and get nothing in return. I'm not interested in sex on the first few dates, but I sure don't want to be paying and planning all the dates. I want a partner not a dependent. Women work now and want to be treated like equals. Them not paying isn't them being treated like equals.
@Broken_doll 95 percent of child custody goes to women. Who are you kidding? And how about adoption? A single woman can adopt a little girl or little boy. Men can only adopt little boys. It used to not be that way in Russia, but since Russia stopped adoption to the US and restarted it, not only women can adopt little girls. Where is the quality in that? I'll wait, GO!
Why is everyone arguing? Women , none of you all bring anything but a reproductive organ to the table these days. So why argue your value to men when there isn't any? You women act valuable to men and fight us men about it , but the reality speaks for its self. You'all preach equality... where?
@nathanp97 "if a woman won't give sex after a first date if she wants a relationship, then why does he have to pay?"
Because she's not a hooker.
why are you so petty about paying for a first date? It only shows chivalry. You're not exactly breaking the bank by paying for a dinner unless you don't have a job. Seriously, if a guy is that uptight about spending 20 bucks, that shows how the rest of the relationship will be. Tit for tat. No thanks
@nathanp97: Many ways exist a woman can show care. She can confide in him, listen to him, give him advice on personal problems he might have, do him favors, help him with things he might be struggling with, etc. After the man proves he's doing more than trying to smash and shows he's a good man, she can pay for him, give him gifts, confide in him, have sex with him, etc. This shows that the woman likes you for who you are and not what you have.
We expect men to keep paying to show if he is serious about having a relationship with us. A guy that only wants sex mostly wouldn't want to keep paying for dates. Mostly, player types don't even like dates. If he notices he has to keep paying, he would move to an easier girl or a hooker. However, if for some crazy reason, he does keep paying and waiting patiently before she decides to fuck and he actually did use her, it would be a fair trade because albeit he used her, he still managed to wait and pay. That way, it's not a complete lose/lose situation for the woman. He won because he got the sex he wanted, but she also won because she didn't lose anything with being used.
In my answer, notice how I said that MGTOW is entitled men "going their own way because they can't have their own way?" Dating isn't Burger King. You believe that dating is something that is supposed guarantee you sex. Your mindset is "I spend money on her. Therefore, she should let me fuck." That's the mindset of a trick, not a gentlemen. You approach a woman because you like her and you want to get to know her by hanging out with her. Mostly, I'm sorry to say it, but hanging out costs money. If you don't want to spend money to hang out with the girl you like, then you don't need to be dating. You can't pay for a woman to like you. The entitlement mentality that MGTOW have is a personal problem that needs resolving, not a general man problem. If you find yourself dating constantly, but you can't get a second date, then you're the problem.
@Tiffany_Taylor_Made yes, sometimes you are able to use your past experiences to learn... and sometimes it's too late--nicole brown simpson
@nathanp97: I get where you're coming from Nathan. We do want partners, not dependents. However, unfortunately, we live in a society where foolishness rules over wisdom. Too many men out there don't want women as partners, but convenience for sex. I have male friends, family members, and co-workers. They often talk about women in a sexual way and mention that they intend to have sex with women before they approach them. Knowing that, it's simply smart for a woman to have the man pay for dates just in case he is one of those guys that view women as a sexual convenience rather than companion. It tests his care. A man that truly cares wouldn't complain about paying. A man that does care would likely just find a slut to fuck, but if for some reason he does decide to pay it all and use her, it's a fair trade. On the flipside, too many women out there only value men for what they have and not for who they are. If you're serious about a relationship, you have to do your due diligence to determine if this woman is with you because she actually likes you for you. Does she actually show that she cares, confides in you, helps you, treat you kindly, and so on? Or does she treat you like a checklist? If so, move on to a girl that actually likes you for you. If you feel that women don't like you for you, then trying changing you for the better. A great way to begin is to drop this MGTOW mentality and become a wise go-getter.
@Djaay: If you chose correctly, you should have a women that brings love, care, kindness, and loyalty to the table, something that keeps relationships healthy and strong. This is what everybody should "bring to the table" in a relationship, male or female. By the way, you also have plenty of men that offer just their dick to the table too. It goes both ways. Djaay, you're 59. You're way too old to be this foolish not to understand this.
@ThisAndThat "95% of child custody goes to the woman." WRONG. TOTAL MYTH. And where did you come up with such a high number, from the 70s? Actually more men are getting custody now. www.washingtonpost.com/.../...36f076c76_story.html
In general, child custody goes to the parent who can provide the best care for the child. If women spend more time caring for the child than men (even working women), the custody tends to go to her. My cousin was in a custody battle and her ex boyfriend provides the most care for their daughter, so he was granted custody.
Another reason is that men typically give the woman custody in court... also, there is a percentage of men do not want to see their children much after divorce, sadly.
www.huffpost.com/.../dispelling-the-myth-of-ge_b_1617115
@Djaay No, you didn't imply both men and women. You are bashing women, so maybe YOU need to learn how to read.
"Why is everyone arguing? Women , none of you all bring anything but a reproductive organ to the table these days. So why argue your value to men when there isn't any? You women act valuable to men and fight us men about it , but the reality speaks for its self. You'all preach equality... where? "
Im also married to a wonderful young woman who is all that you suggested. Before my ex passed , another wonderful woman , she left me with 10 great creations. Of course im not speaking of myself here , although im very versed with this department. Todays woman has sacrificed kindness for evil intentions. And continue to masquerade a premise that theyre time is much more valuable than a mans. My relationships never started with a date... no one wants a probation officer qeulling theyre every move. Dating is a form of probation of each other. Dating is a perpetual game of surrades.
@Djaay:
"Why is everyone arguing? Women , none of you all bring anything but a reproductive organ to the table these days. So why argue your value to men when there isn't any? You women act valuable to men and fight us men about it , but the reality speaks for its self. You'all preach equality... where? "
I can read just fine. You're talking about women not having value and only bringing pussy to the table. Don't try to change it up and say you're implying men too. You didn't say men could lack value to women as well. You're just being biased.
@Broken_doll: It's only too late when you're dead.
@Broken_doll The left leaning Washington and Huffington Post are you sources of information? I guarantee you your math is wrong. I know so because that's part of MGTOW being resourceful sharing information and I guarantee you your math is way off.
@Broken_doll Forget the fantasy articles of washington and huffington post. Here's the real statistics. www.cor-law.com/.../...-gender-discrimination.html
Could you all take it to DM? Notifications are getting annoying.
@ThisAndThat: Instead of rejecting information simply because it was reported by a news organization with political views that you disagree with, why not actually check the content of their direct source? The direct sources are free of any sort of political bias.
scholarship.law.umn.edu/.../viewcontent.cgi
@ThisAndThat lol those aren't real statistics. That's a law firm advertising their services. That's not a credible source.
@Broken_doll Wrong. You expect me to believe your sources when it's a proven fact that men are screwed out of child custody? If this video doesn't prove the biassed against men, I don't know what will. Your sources are trying to do damage control, we in MGTOW know the truth, we have the right sources which is why women and the entire system hates MGTOW.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/M-Dtcvqcjc8/
@ThisAndThat your sour es are completely biased and incredible.
Mine at least come from credible sources that are unbiased.
@ThisAndThat You can't argue with dumb females. They will drive you crazy.
@Stephen_77 well this "dumb female" has a higher education and IQ than you. I incorporate critical thinking skills when reading articles, while you guys go by your emotions and only find articles that support your point of view, even when they are false.
I have even researched male rights groups and it is nothing more than an occult for male supremacy. One of the main followers (I can get his name for you) who got in trouble for pedophilia believes that the age of consent should be 12 years old. So basically, he is trying to justify pedophilia. And you guys blindly follow these men without questioning them like a bunch of sheep
@Broken_doll You're not intelligent at all. You're as dumb as a box of bricks and are full of horse shit.
@Broken_doll: The thing about MGTOW is that they are foolish men. They have bad experiences with women based on their own poor choices. Instead of taking responsibility for their own poor choices and trying to be wiser with their future choices, they completely give up on relationships and try their hardest to convince themselves that all or most women and feminism are the problems to avoid taking accountability. They try to make it seem like MGTOW is a result of problems that men face when in relationships with women, but when you actually have MGTOW explain themselves, you learn that they're actually personal problems that they can indeed improve upon, but they refuse to because it's "too risky" and "not that easy." They're weak-willed quitters that rather have an easy solution or no solution at all. As a result, they are more likely to believe any biased source that confirms their outlandish, laughable beliefs and they absolutely refuse to listen to reason. They prove that they are truly miserable and actually want women based on how often they vilify women online when they're supposed have been happy without women by "going their own way." The best way to truly deal with MGTOW is just to let them wallow in their own misery. Because they're too foolish and weak to pass their genes, they would be eventually bred out of existence.
@Stephen_77 You are correct. Females thing because they want a lie to come true that it will. It never has and it never will happen. Let them try to cover it as best they can. In the end they're painting over a problem with clear paint.
@Tiffany_Taylor_Made lol true! They will be bred out eventually and no one will care. Too bad that they are missing out
@Stephen_77 you're calling me dumb when you can't even compose a grammatically correct sentence? Lol. Leave out the second "are" in your second sentence and it will read properly.
So instead of "you are dumb as a box of rock and are full of horse shit" it will read "you are dumb as a box of rocks and full of horse shit."
See how much better that is? That's a free lesson. Next one I'm charging you.
@Broken_doll well @ anyone. Not broken doll specifically. The notion that I didn't make wise choices seemed true first half of life. Later I discovered it's the laws.
The only way to win is out! I didn't give up. Date abroad. I look at my brothers and how they achieved success. I'm not missing out where I'm at. I'm constantly reminded not to marry and watch what happens to those who do. Justin beiber. Etc. Everyone is getting hit up men. Get out of Dodge!
Gentleman is really just a an act of a man interested and chasing for something he values. He nor anyone human can be pressured to want. You have to want something yourself. Okay. So I want that classic Disney. How do I get it! Save up and move out. Pay attention to the countries culture and laws.
I'm not fighting anyone. I have work now. Time to save more money and ignore this mess.
@Broken_doll I would rather make a mistake in my grammar than post a load of ignorant piffle, which you have done repeatedly, proving that you are another dumb female with only half a brain.
@Stephen_77 lol but you are posting ignorance too! Look at that comment you just made! " Another dumb female with only half a brain."
And you're a bigot too! Awesome!
@Broken_doll And you're a dumb turd.
@Stephen_77 lol isn't it past your bedtime? I'm calling your mom
@Broken_doll Grow up kid
@jestergent I am not afraid to be married. You talk like if it ends men have to endure hell on earth. Not only many marriages work, but aslo the ones that end don't have to end with the man ruined.
@ThisIsMyOpinion I do say it's the ruin. I agree with that. You are right my friend. There's no argument. There's only the blessing to remain single. Wait until arranged marriage becomes law. Then I get tagged to someone... spend all my money. Airplane. Buy an airplane. I'm flying my money with meee!!! Lol. You can shoot me down but you can't take the airplane. I'm in it!
I looked on Redbox today, rent 1 get 1 free. The list is "joker's", with all men on the cover. The gentlemen.. the hustle, showing 2 ladies hustling on the cover.. I don't know man. It's a different world today. Do what you want. Let's see what happens.
@jestergent You misunderstood everything that I said.
1. To marry IS NOT a men's ruin.
2. Arranged marriage will never be the law.
3. I have no idea what you were talking about after that...
so many misconceptions in this it's crazy
@DonCachondo: Are you referring to my answer sweety or someone else's comment?
@DonCachondo: Alright. What is wrong with my answer?
These men shame sluts but at the same time masturbate to them, like if you're a "monk" refrain from that. Most of these MGTOW people are nihilistic and atheist/pagan. They also advocate for VR porn and sex robots which again are masturbatory devices that lead to ED and depression. Some theories in MGTOW are true like the thin wife that bloats up and traps you in the marriage. Or the single mom, "hitting the wall", and cock carousel ones. Personally, I think men who have bad experiences with women pick the wrong ones, so they think AWALT. There are good women that exist and are selfless while the man is a loser and treats them like crap. MGTOW people don't believe in marriage and having kids, it's some incel PUA thing in disguise. And yes, I do believe the sexual revolution and feminism has created a toxic atmosphere for men and women. And you even have men refusing to work or train women because they're don't want a false accusation thing. MGTOW is just very negative and not being optimistic These men are pretty disgusting too, viewing women as subhuman, and only as sex objects - we have feelings and want relationships too.
You have no idea what you are talking about. When you say "And you even have men refusing to work or train women because they're don't want a false accusation thing", do you realize that SIXTY PERCENT of male managers are now afraid to mentor, meet with, talk with, or even be seen with, modern female employees?
Do you think 60% of male managers are MGTOW? No Ma'am, they are not. Women like you have elevated toxicity to biblical levels and yet you take no responsibility for your actions and failures as human beings and as women as a whole.
I used to regularly mentor young women, help brighter ones advance their careers, and always give encouragement. But, I saw too many young "modern women" who are so hair triggered about "patriarchy, pay gap, rape culture" et. al; that I not only stopped mentoring women I completely left my career field. My next stop would have required me to manage a large group of angry, underperforming, feminist, Tinder obsessed, millennial women. No thanks. These women destroy men for sport.
Although I am not MGTOW, I completely empathize with their movement.
This is so off track... Some are very hateful and negative, I agree to that one.
@KrakenAttackin Dude I agree with you on that, I said there were some good parts about MGTOW, but overall the movement fails to see women as human beings and just the problem to all their failures. I’m against feminism and all those things you mentioned about the modern woman.
@KrakenAttackin not all of those 60% are mgtow bit that does not mean that their fear is logical.
@RickPen Porn causes weak men. Self-control leads to strong men. Why would there be a study on this, it’s a new technology? And it’s obvious, if regular porn and OnlyFans warps your mind and reality, VR and robots are going to be much worse. These MGTOW people are not going their own way if they’re still jacking off to “women” lol
@modelun242. If only men would be more like women.
I would contend that only part of self described MGTOW members dehumanize women. From my perspective, growing up sexually abused by women, drugged, raped, beaten, jobless because I turned women down for sex, 'and having no justice, I'm very wary of women. That's not bitterness: that's 18 years of abuse. I don't dehumanize women, but like the story of the scorpion, I feel that they are inherently dangerous. That is not to say all women, as they begin as blank slates. What we have is popularized hatred and villifying of men. I see MGTOW as a light for some, and even if they complain, voicing frustration is far healthier than brooding over it.
I still await an article regarding masturbation devices and ED.
MGTOW is a spot light on what most modern women have become, and a frustration about what women have lost in their humanity.
What about all the people in MGTOW that have been burned badly by women in the past? They can't just put their feelings behind them. And yes accusation culture should scare men at least a little since someone who you dont even know might try to point something on you and no matter the outcome you'll be socially destroy and could lose your job. Its just like false rape claims, women do it because they don't want to take responsibility for their actions and in the process ruin a guys life and can walk away scott free. Now im not saying treat women like trash or disposable objects but the inequality in the Legal system has really hurt some. Just like police offericers in the US are not held responsible fir their actions. A police officer shot and killed her brother in law after hours and the excuse 'she was tired' means she just has to server 10 years for her incredible negligence. MGTOW do see women as humans, they are just extremely cautious that they aren't waiting to backstab. Onlyfans and Porn in general are big payouts for woman because of simp culture, that i agree with you makes weak men. Also what's wrong with wanting a sex robot or VR Porn?
@EyesOfGod I mostly side with Men's Rights (false accusations, metoo) more than MGTOW. Plus, we don't know what the men's backstories are when they say that they've been divorce-raped, like were they abusive to their wives? It's one-sided. I've lurked in MGTOW communities and all they talk about is how women are sluts, want your money, marriage is bad, etc. If all men went MGTOW, the population wouldn't grow. Truth is, men can age like milk, men can run the pussy carousel, etc. These MGTOW men chose the wrong women to procreate with and are surprised why she divorce raped him, both men and women should have standards. Life is fulfilling having a family and children, not moping around, and being angry. I think VR porn and sex robots are dehumanizing and weaken men.
Look at japan, where sex robots are a real thing. Though its because both men and women are overworked and to tired to date in the first place. I agree that there are some red pill crazies, but i do agree that in our current situation marriage is worthless. If you haven't seen the statistics but the rise of fems has actually impacted the population growth rate. Nearly all Western countries have a growing population age and are well below the 2.1 birth rate. (Japan is at like 1.1) Any guy who pays for porn is a weak guy thats for sure. This ain't the 70's where they'd have to go to the magazine store and buy it xD.
@EyesOfGod Yeah, I don't know, it's sad, Japan's declining birth rate means they have to take in immigrants which may kill their culture.
What's wrong with VR porn and sex robots? That's a good idea. Most women own at least one vibrator. At least men want something that looks like a human and they can talk to, not just an unreasonably large big robot penis to fuck themselves with. Then after fucking themselves with a 10-inch vibrating robot dick for years, they complain that men are bad at sex.
@WhistleForTheChoir I agree that women shouldn't be using those things, but have you seen sex dolls? They're so weird looking and unnatural. Wouldn't you eventually get tired of them and how would you talk to them? I saw male sex robots and sure they look perfect, but I prefer a real, breathing human with reflexes. What happens when you're older (especially when humans are living longer) and you have no one? Your libido is definitely going to decrease by then and you're going to crave affection.
It's good at least to have somewhat open mind to MGTOW, but it takes a deep dive into it to fully understand everything done there. As I said in another post, go watch the Joker movie to understand it.
I think one of my greatest splits with you is the sex doll thing. Look, the truth is, many guys have a lot of sexual urges. They want it released really badly, but masturbation is so looked down upon, lesbians seemed always preferred over gays (old testament too, no joke), but to date a woman just for sex I think is a moral red line. Most can't afford to pay for it either, much less dates themselves and wives. No offence, but unlike girls who I've noticed even the ones considered "super fat" and "ugly" still have guys bringing them gifts and chasing them.
Even a guy slightly fat and OK looking is just not going to have the attraction luck of a girl of the same. Stats even show girls on average are 10x pickier than guys on looks based stuff like tinder, legit rating NO guys a 10, which basically translates as "there is no perfect looking guy."
ALL of this is what guys deal with when it comes to dating/fucking the other gender. So yah, many say FUCK IT and would prefer a robot that at the very least takes away the sexual urge side so they are not as prone to going after girls and can continue focusing on other things.
A MAIN POINT on the sex bot argument ALL the naysayers seem to forget is that MALE SEX BOTS EXIST TOO! Geez, I get so sick people pretending NO female will order a bot as well! It WILL happen. And hell, what, are you also against dildos as well? Females DO masturbate and in fact many may actually lie about it because for so long, girls WANTING sex was considered taboo, especially if so much so that they self pleasure, while men were always considered the dirtier, grosser ones, so OF COURSE women are not going to admit as much as men. But don't be fooled and stop sticking up your nose at sex bots. as just because somebody is alone, doesn't mean they should be miserable. Let em have a companion or else, yes, incels are going to push sexual frustration into mass violence! DUH! Give em the bot, let em take it out on it, and let them die in peace and if that means they just stick to themselves, then whatever.
I haven't even gotten into the capitalistic part of it, where drinking and smoking are 100000x more dangerous than masturbation is, yet I see NOBODY giving NEAR as much panic to those and actually, I hear stats show that even as girls are the ones so against sex bots, THEY ARE DRINKING MORE NOW, so yah, things to think about. For the record, I'm straight edge, proud of it. So no, no hypocrisy on my part either.
@errorgoodnameunfound You know what? You have fun with your sex doll then.
See, I never said I myself would get one. All I said is that anyone has the rignt to if they wish. But again, pouting like that in disgust is what makes much of MGTOW so hostile at times. It's fault of people like YOU. YOU are at fault. You are not MOST at fault, but you share fault. You empathize with MGTOW, but not near enough what is necessary. Don't wwhine then hen incels start getting really damn violent and maybe you are affected. You helped cause it. Your fauit. Take some responsibility.
@errorgoodnameunfound Ooh because I'm a woman, wow!! And that Joker movie that you based off of this, it's just a movie and it's anecdotal. Real men fought in wars, sacrificed for their family, became leaders, and even in today's world, they still prevail. What about men nowadays who leave their girlfriend when she gets pregnant or persuades her to get an abortion? These men enjoy the bachelor lifestyle while there are single moms working by themselves. Women are the backbone of society, they are nurturing and make sure people don't slack off. MGTOW is a personal problem not a workplace thing, those things should be separate. How about you stop whining because no woman wants one.
AGAIN, no. You ASSUME it's cause you're a woman. It's not. I said PEOPLE. Cause plenty guys also act against their own interests and say the same damn thing. I don't discriminate based on gender, good or bad. You think I advocate for men who treat women like shit? OF COURSE NOT! I got females in my own family and as good friends. WHY would I want them be treated badly? MGTOW isn't about that. In fact there ARE vets, successful, rich guys, etc ALL in MGTOW. They often hide that because of shamers like you. But they exist. I would know, because I've seen them share their stories in MGTOW areas. You seem to have no damn clue just how big and broad it is. I know guys that are sports stars that highly agree with MGTOW. Why? Because they've both dated and screwed A LOT , so they've seen women for what they are and they can openly say it because they're dating right now and they can get somebody else easy with any issues. MGTOW isn't small. Many basically are part of it, without it official, bc then, again, media and people like you would freak out and they'd lose everything.
seen many women, *not all* but MANY for what they are*
Also, about the Joker movie, mmy gawd the assumptions, as if ONLY the people you don't like like that movie. No. It has quite broad appeal. There are gonna be retired marines out there, full MGTOW, that love that movie. They exist. Just like covid 19 exists without you seeing it, so do they!
I think the point is to advance the artificial intelligence enough to where it looks or seems more real. Not just blow-up dolls or those Barbie doll-looking things they have now, I'm thinking something more along the lines of like Joi from that Bladerunner movie when you say VR sex. I'm going to be alone when I'm older anyways lol, that's not up to me. Women will not give me an honest chance, because I'm too short. I crave affection right now, but I think there is a song that goes, "Needing is one thing, getting's another." I just think it's funny that you're shitting on men because a small minority of them want something with a face who can talk, when the vast majority of women literally are fine with just a robot penis lmao.
@RickPen Thanks for sharing dude. Don't ever fear exposing such stories. MGTOW and men in general need to get each other's back solidly. We're all bros. We all deal with similar shit when it comes to gender. We need to get each other's back and be loyal.
I think this song is directed at many females out there, more evil than they seem, judging by the video and lyrics, highly recommend.
"You tried taking everything from me but the things you couldn't take are the values you don't have
Integrity, courage, loyalty I will never forget... no!
I am the poison, flowing through your veins
I am the face of terror, eating through your soul
Break the code of silence... I am the king of defiance
I am the rebel of power... I am the son of survival
As your fall into darkness... I will rise from the sun
I'm alive... I'm alive!"
Push the Venom -Kataklysm.
Embrace this all and keep strong fellow MGTOWer! \m/
@errorgoodnameunfound I don't fear being attacked, but absolutely know it will happen, because it already has. In real life I've been threatened and attacked with knives by groups of guys who basically white-knighted before that was ever a term. I routinely am told that I whine too much and need to move on, or man up, when they fail to realize that I would have been far, far more successful had it literally not been for women who forced their desires on me, and shoved down by a system that believes men can never be any sort of victim.
People dislike hearing that women are often the culprit, because it's a mental paradigm shift that's difficult to imagine, so they choose cognitive dissonance. While I don't necessarily identify as MGTOW, I understand and agree with the overall concept that females (at least in America) are outright abusive, dangerous, and threatening.
I'll keep relaying my experiences in the hope that it helps others (and it already has in several instances). Thanks for the positive feedback!
@WhistleForTheChoir Exactly the point for most of us. And seriously, it's NOT just the stereotype that want those bots, as right now they are NOT cheap, but damn do they sell like crazy, whatever is available right now.
Why do people always crap on PUA's? Do you even know any? They are the most respectable men I've ever known. I don't know why everyone hates them and the art of picking up girls. That is literally what everyone does naturally. They don't promote treating girls bad. If anything they are helping women by making more men into what women want them to be.
@EABsTUQ Are you serious lol, PUAs are the biggest losers in men. Women know their antics and we can see through their bullshit. They're only into hookups and one-night stands. They don't want relationships. Women want commitment and a man who's there for her, not calling her for a booty call. I've never met any and don't plan to. However, I read a lot about RooshV and now he regrets his PUA lifestyle, he became a Christian, so there, it can damage you over time. There's no art to picking up girls, that's funny, it's a natural instilled behaviour. Okay, so they're playing mind games on women which is temporary. PUAs are only a thing after the sexual revolution which didn't do a favour for either genders.
That doesn't sound like a bad thing. Should we men just opt out of kids and marriage until they import new women? Then we could rebuild a new generation.
No you're wrong. Go to the top PUA's known and you will see the notions about them are false. Hell if you met some of them you would think they are monks. Some of them are married. Don't claim to know something you know nothing about. Some of these men are fucking near a 1000 women a year so women do want them. I remember one dude said his new years resolution was to fuck less girls lmao. And picking up girls is a art just like anything else in life. If you study it boy will you be surprised. Some men are just not naturals a getting women or have horrible self esteem and they help these guys. I'm talking about guys that are about to commit suicide because they are 40 have their own business but have never been in a relationship to guys that are just curious. They don't teach men to be nice guys or bad guys. They teach guys to be good guys and respect women and always reveal there intentions. Look I'm talking about the top guys in the industry. Your talking about random guys who used what they learned to simply fuck women or get back at women. I mean literally a good portion of what they teach is manage or get over inner issues. Even Tony Robbins has mentions some techniques PUA's use such as Mirroring. It's not all about fucking women. Most guys are just trying to get married and suck at getting women. I would dare to say the people shitting on women are naturals (men who are naturally good a getting women). And not all women want a relationship. You're just talking about yourself and speaking for everyone about something you know nothing about. I mean you're 20 years old lmao.
@EABsTUQ fuck around 1000 women a year... They would need to get at least 3 new girls a day for that. Everyday for a year... Ya you are full of it.
@ThisIsMyOpinion Yeah that's disgusting, learning how to be a man-whore.
Don't worry no guy is actually doing that much of a number. Even pornstars average 78 different partners a year.
@ThisIsMyOpinion @modelun242 I didn't say 900. There is no way to confirm how many girls that dude is fucking but don't try to change the narrative and that guy isn't a teacher anyway. The top guys teaching in the PUA industry are not bad guys and many of them are better than average guys. They respect women more than the average man. They don't teach men so they can fuck 1000 girls, they teach men so they dont end up with some girl they never wanted when they're 30 or so they get a girl at all or so they can get a girl they randomly see on the street instead of picking from only the ones they know. Stop shaming them just because they are good at getting women. They are helping men. Don't talk about things you aren't educated on or have no experienced first hand. MGTOW and all that other stuff you said I am not with. And the people who aren't in the industry who are just some normal ol' fuck boys you can shame them all you want.
@EABsTUQ Okay, I can agree you on that, there must have been some confusion back there, it's pretty overwhelming how long this thread is getting.
@EABsTUQ that really doesn't sound like PUA. Usually people, both men and women, who have a lot of sexual partners have a hard time keeping a relationship.
About them respecting women more, again I really doubt it. They tend to look at them like pieces of meat. Just like girls who are PUA think that of men.
1) If women are really so intuitive and have this super power of mind-reading, why does almost every woman I know have SEVERAL stories about fuck-boys who gave them trust-issues? And how are these men getting one-night stands? It's not the behavior of these men that attract women, it's the personality traits that cause the behavior. Women are typically attracted to men who emotionally detached and aloof, fiercely individualistic, even arrogant at times, impulsive, egocentric and often of below average intelligence. Somehow this combination of traits rolls into a person who isn't great for a cooperative partnership and is generally unreliable.
2) I don't think MGTOW's are into one-night stands. I think the point for them is that they swore off of ALL women, except prostitutes. But I'm not 100% sure about that.
@WhistleForTheChoir Agree. I follow men guard their own wallets. Some hate women. Others are stacking up. Spend on the one. My plan. Bc I listened to conversations of friends of friends who said they date men. Take money.. go. Brag about it. That killed dating for me few years ago.
Stacking... Up...
@jestergent you have very shitty friends then.
@WhistleForTheChoir Well you're just a lonely incel obviously.
(dont worry other girls on here, I've taken care of your default response to this kind of point, you may now sleep better at night next to the guy who punched you yesterday but will probably change for the better tomorrow)
@errorgoodnameunfound they don't usually sleep next to the guy who punched them.
@WhistleForTheChoir Seems to me too that logic just somehow does not fit this "swearing off all girls except prostitutes" thing. Obviously one must be super bitter or gay to partake in such a terrible thing. Now excuse me, I have some sexy Onlyfans pics to take a party with LOTS of beer and cigerettes later. See you dumb, unhealthy desperate men later!
@errorgoodnameunfound Yes, clearly your logic is vastly superior... "Gay men hire female prostitutes. Desperate men swear off women. Now excuse me, while I go drink alcohol and smoke cigarettes, you unhealthy losers."
@errorgoodnameunfound I'm sorry, are you sarcastically agreeing with me? I genuinely can't tell.
@WhistleForTheChoir If I remember correctly I was being sarcastic. Especially the second time I thought I had indicated well enough that I was using sarcasm in your favor.
You should rightly be worried about being replaced by sex robots and VR porn. Once women are removed from sex, men will have little need for modern women.
Think about it. Ladies be honest with yourselves, what do you bring to a relationship other than sex? Yeah... didn't think so.
Opinion
92Opinion
MGTOW isn't a brought, an organization, or anything like that. It's simply a choice, and like any choice, it has a myriad of different reasons.
Personally I have chosen not to pursue women ever since I dropped the rose colored glasses and just started looking at it from a rational standpoint. I have never been one to date down, and guys who don't go there accept that they're going to be putting a lot into the search, and there's going to be very little payoff. The positives just don't balance the negatives. It's that simple.
And in the context of a relationship, success just means things are mutually satisfying at that given time. What percentage of relationships stay mutually satisfactory for life? The stats say it isn't most. As a guy, you become more amd more invested over time, and the breakup becomes worse as you have more to lose. I mean that both in emotional terms and in material terms.
This is just due to how male and female attraction and attachment works. It has nothing to do with either being intrinsically good or evil. Gravity isn't evil just because you can't flap your arms and fly. It just is what it is.
It's perfectly possible to love women, yet refuse to put yourself in harms way over it. Hell, I'm a car lover and yet I know enough not to walk out in front of one :)
Women, as a collective, have made themselves too legally dangerous to be in the same room as one.
In some jurisdictions, such as Britain, France and Holland, anti-catcalling laws were worded in ways that made it a crime to approach a woman.
In November, last year, a pick-up artist in Glasgow, who had been shooting a video about cold approaching on the street, was sentenced to two years in prison for the heinous crime of approaching women.
https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/game-jailed-for-two-years-17126173
In the workplace and elsewhere, false allegations of sexual harassment have become the norm.
In dating, false rape allegations have become commonplace.
The law is biased in favour of women to a degree that is grotesque, especially in the Family Court.
There is no longer any benefit for men to have normal heterosexual relationships with women, nor to seek such relationships. None.
MGTOW is a rational reaction to this situation.
When the risk is overwhelming, the benefit is small to nil and the cost of failure is everything that a man owns, his future income and prison time because he could not pay court-mandated child support, the only rational course of action for men is to walk away.
It is sad that gender relations has come to this.
This entire situation was brought about by the Communist plan to destroy Western civilisation by destroying the family, as per the Communist Manifesto (Marx, 1854). It was from that hate-filled well of insanity that Feminism emerged, as a tool of the Communists.
Goodbye women. It was nice while it lasted.
BINGO absolutely. Isaiah 4:1 Isaiah 13:12 and Isaiah 3 16:25 is and will continue to unfold before our eyes. There can be no doubt now that the Prophecy of Isaiah Prophesied MGTOW.
Isaiah 4:1 In that day seven women will take hold of one man and say, "We will eat our own food and provide our own clothes; only let us be called by your name. Take away our disgrace!"
Isaiah 13:12 The Prophecy of Babylon. I will make a man more rare than fine gold, even a man than the pure gold of Ophir.
Isaiah 3 16:12 Judgment on Jerusalem and Judah 3 See now, the Lord, the Lord Almighty,
is about to take from Jerusalem and Judah both supply and support: all supplies of food and all supplies of water, 2 the hero and the warrior, the judge and the prophet, the diviner and the elder, 3 the captain of fifty and the man of rank, the counselor, skilled craftsman and clever enchanter.
4 “I will make mere youths their officials; children will rule over them.” 5 People will oppress each other— man against man, neighbor against neighbor. The young will rise up against the old,
the nobody against the honored. 6 A man will seize one of his brothers in his father’s house, and say, “You have a cloak, you be our leader; take charge of this heap of ruins!” 7 But in that day he will cry out, “I have no remedy. I have no food or clothing in my house; do not make me the leader of the people.” 8 Jerusalem staggers, Judah is falling; their words and deeds are against the Lord,
defying his glorious presence. 9 The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.
Isaiah continued:
10 Tell the righteous it will be well with them, for they will enjoy the fruit of their deeds.
11 Woe to the wicked! Disaster is upon them! They will be paid back for what their hands have done. 12 Youths oppress my people, women rule over them. My people, your guides lead you astray;
they turn you from the path. 13 The Lord takes his place in court; he rises to judge the people.
14 The Lord enters into judgment against the elders and leaders of his people: “It is you who have ruined my vineyard; the plunder from the poor is in your houses. 15 What do you mean by crushing my people and grinding the faces of the poor?” declares the Lord, the Lord Almighty. 16 The Lord says, “The women of Zion are haughty, walking along with outstretched necks, flirting with their eyes, strutting along with swaying hips, with ornaments jingling on their ankles. 17 Therefore the Lord will bring sores on the heads of the women of Zion; the Lord will make their scalps bald.”
18 In that day the Lord will snatch away their finery: the bangles and headbands and crescent necklaces, 19 the earrings and bracelets and veils, 20 the headdresses and anklets and sashes, the perfume bottles and charms, 21 the signet rings and nose rings, 22 the fine robes and the capes and cloaks, the purses 23 and mirrors, and the linen garments and tiaras and shawls.
24 Instead of fragrance there will be a stench; instead of a sash, a rope; instead of well-dressed hair, baldness; instead of fine clothing, sackcloth; instead of beauty, branding. 25 Your men will fall by the sword, your warriors in battle. 26 The gates of Zion will lament and mourn; destitute, she will sit on the ground.
Never have I seen so much fear of women combined then with you two morons.
@ cth96190 He doesn't even live in the US, yet wants to speak on something he knows nothing about. If he chooses to make himself look stupid then it's on him so be it.
Either men in the US are scared for no reason, which I believe or they allowed the situation to get where it is. Because courts, police, the media and the government are not run by women they are run by men. If those men listened to women and screwed up things for all the others then that is also on them.
@KrakenAttackin like I said either it's not as bad as you say or you allowed it to get to the point it is today.
@ThisIsMyOpinion We have male feminists who have happily sold humanity out.
@KrakenAttackin do they run all of the court, government, media and police?
@ThisIsMyOpinion You may have a point in that we allowed this to happen. At our core men want to protect women. In our effort to protect women we stupidly listened to the words women say.
@KrakenAttackin Snowflackes should never be listen to instead of reason and logic.
@ThisIsMyOpinion I completely agree. We have snowflakes rioting across the U. S. right now. These clowns are driven by pure emotion and do not listen to reason.
@KrakenAttackin What cracks me up is rioters rioting for things like feminism and leader ship when rioters by default are followers that have no ability to lead. They are sheep that will listen and react to anything and anyone that's indoctrinating them.
@Rebeccalions
You are showing the Feminist mindset into which you were indoctrinated.
Your critique of a source that I offered told me that who had been through the full university Feminist indoctrination process. . . and might not realise it, because you appear to be fundamentally a good person.
The man in Glasgow was prosecuted under the catcalling law, which criminalises any approach to a female if, after the approach, the female decides that she did not like the way in which she was approached.
The law in Britain was worded so broadly that even looking at a female counts as a crime, in the way that Feminist lunatics talk about 'eye rape'.
For all I know that man in Glasgow might have been an obnoxious creeper, but what I pointed to was the insanity of making it a crime to approach women. Women, who, on the whole, appear to be oblivious of the consequences of the law that the sisterhood has imposed upon society, will wander around bleating about 'where did all the men go' and 'why have men stopped approaching me'. Women really do have an astonishing lack of situational awareness and an inability to connect the dots to foresee the logical consequences of decisions.
The only rational thing for men to do is to walk away and refuse to approach women. To refuse to even talk to them, if females initiate contact.
Any and all forms of interaction with females has been made too dangerous.
That was always the real intent of the catcalling law, because the Communists/Feminists want to prevent white men and women getting together and making white babies. It is all in the Communist literature, if you care to read it.
Other races are affected by the Feminist insanity, but they are collateral damage rather than the intended target.
@cth96190 well the article said abusive, so I assume it was more than just catcalls. I've read articles about the influx of Serbians immigrating to Germany and how they were sexually harrassing and raping women, so I thought it was similar.
Well in America, women are treated like shit in the dating scene, especially in Miami. Guys just manipulate us and use us for sex and trade up when a hotter girl comes along. Girls are sick of it. They can't find a decent boyfriend.
So maybe move to the states and you would have the advantage over these assholes
Yes indeed it's the communist manifesto, you hit it square on the head. Everything we now see is exactly what the antichrist planed (all 100% provable). Sadly it worked.
@Rebeccalions
Re what you said about the dating scene in Miami.
A lot of young men set out looking for that one special girl to love.
That was what I did.
All that we wanted was one girl to hold, to love and be our everything.
Unfortunately, the modern young woman will respond to that by saying that such a young man is 'boring', or 'lame' and not 'exciting' enough.
Some of these young men (I cannot even guess at a proportion) will respond by morphing into the sort of bad-boy emotionally-abusive arsehole that young women (through their choices) have made it clear that they want.
Other young men simply give up and walk away. I was part of the latter group, because it was not in me to treat a woman badly, no matter how much they showed by their choices that they wanted it.
I suspect that, if you interrogated the young women of Miami, you would find that although they said that they wanted 'good men' they would have histories of jumping from one abusive bad boy to another. A deeper interrogation would reveal that they rejected, or Friend Zoned, plenty of good men, because such men were 'boring'.
Women throughout the West exhibit the same pattern of self-destructive behaviour.
That is why in the Manosphere we say: ignore what a woman says, watch what she does.
There is usually a big difference between the two.
As for moving to the USA, funny you should say that.
During my 20s the Australian Army sent me to USA for some training and as part of an exchange.
Perhaps it was the novelty of my accent (though it was and is more BBC radio than Crocodile Dundee), but I found that I had no difficulty with the local females. Back home in Australia, the best that I could do was a FOAD.
Were I to swim the Pacific today, I would have to settle in flyover country with those Trump voting midwest farm girls. . . or their mothers. :-)
@Rebeccalions
No, not Miami.
I was entertained elsewhere.
I have yet to visit Las Vegas and a few other places that I would like to see. The USA has places that could not exist anywhere else in the world.
Where I live, the Gold Coast, is like a weird down under combination of Miami and Hollywood, without the scale of the race and drug problems that Miami has.
You might be surprised how many big Hollywood movies are made at the Warner Bros. studio here, which incorporates a theme park.
For example, at least one of the Pirates of the Caribbean series and Aquaman.
I bet. Don't think I'd want to go to a place that's a mix of Miami and Hollywood. Sounds too superficial. I like to keep it real lol
That group is a trap for the week, the wounded and the stupid. Just because there is a group of people that thinks like you doesn't mean thay are right! There is a very big group of people that actually believes the earth is flat! Look I get it, they make people feel like they are not alone and that what happened so far wasn't their fault. That can be really apealing. But it's nothing more than closing your eyes to reallity to ease your pain.
They talk about reallity, that in reallity girls can't escape their "female nature". So they only stay with you until a better one comes along, that they are not capable of love, they just want chad/alphas, etc. Do you want to recieve reallity? Here it is... You don't get girls because you are not good enough! Ya I said it! Do you really think that just because you are nice girls want you? That being a lazy ass is going to get you anywhere? No! The hardest thing in the world is looking in the mirror, admit it "I suck!" and after that fighting with all you have to suck less. Been there done that! Start working out, read more, get a hobbie outside, learn a skill, do something! Anything, but blaming the world instead of yourself! Do you want a good girlfirend? Turn yourself into the best boyfriend first!
Sorry this is late, but I got back into this from a reply to another comment. Anyways though, you have a good point, but I think you misunderstand MGTOW's goals and confuse it for the whiny, "incel" fakers among it. There are thousands of people who make up MGTOW who want to do exactly that, which is improve themelves, focus on themselves, and not pay much attention to women while doing so. Doesn't mean not calling them out on their hypocricy, as we want more men to also see beyond what they are taught, and it often takes doing that and similar a bit, in order to get men to stop pussy worshipping and focus on improvement in themselves.
Additionally, I love how you and many men out there LOSE THEIR SHIT on men who criticize women a bit, accusing them all of not looking at their own faults, yet I see NOTHING from you saying men AND women should do the same.
Sorry dude, but in my eyes, that is sign of pussy worshipping, simp behavior and specifically with this, a bit hypocritical. MGTOW is all for self improvement but the question remains, are YOU self improving for yourself or the sake of pussy? Because that will determine whether "my eyes" POV of you is correct.
Just a quick observation from what I have seen here, I'm not going to read every opinion there are far to many now. I see woman who refuse to listen to what guys say here, I guy said it comes down to risk vs reward and that is spot on, I geuss it hurts you to hear your not worth the risk to some guys. My main observation is that there are woman who try to make us jump threw all these bs Hoops and proof ourselves worthy that are now upset that some decide not to jump threw hoops. What did you expect? If you want men around act like it, you can't have it both ways. Be more inviting and acomidating or watch as men leave. Me personally, the more you try to make me proof something the less interested I am, I'm not likely to do it. For example If you dont trust me I'm not gonna bend over backward to convince you, instead ill be insulted you continually question my integrity.
I totally agree with you..💕 I have never understood why people enter a relationship having severe trust issues and put the other person through hell for it...
@PonyCarGirl98. This is an excellent observation.
I mean, I guess I might qualify depending on the definition. I've never been able to get into a relationship, and every experience I've ever had with dating has been just non-stop emotional abuse and manipulation. If I was a woman, people would say I have "trust issues", but since I'm a man people just say I'm pathetic and worthless. I'm never going to be able to fall in love because I'm not attractive enough, and it's very clear that women who pretend to like me are actually only trying to use me, so I do my own thing and try to avoid women in every single facet of my life when it's possible.
I'm really sorry you've been through that...🥺
The way those women treat you has not to do with you, but their own bad character...
If you don't feel attractive, that's one thing, and there are always things you can do to improve your self image. But, if you're basing ur perceived attractiveness on the way others are treating you, it doesn't make you unattractive, instead they are the unattractive ones...❤
In our society it can just be difficult to find love and sustain it - societal norms are changing, people are treating people like crap, and people walk around with unsolved mental health issues then enter a relationship and screw the other person up.
I feel really bad that women have put you through that and I'm sorry. I think the best thing u can do for yourself is heal and trust others who are deserving of that... a grossly unfair part of life is that we can't always predict if someone will hurt us..
Thank you. I don't even think they're abnormal. Maybe they have lower self esteem than average, but they don't set out seeking to hurt me. They just always do, because they just can't be attracted to me even if they try to force themselves to, which results in a lot of leading on, back and forth, come and go and ghosting. Some of them convince themselves that I'm a bad person due to cognitive dissonance, so they will be a little crueler than that. I'm short, and no one has ever told me I'm attractive, which means I'm probably ugly.
There are plenty of women who are done with relationships for one reason or another, who are single mothers trying to focus on raising their kids or who are fine with a man juggling them and several others (this is more common amongst the working class folk I think, but I know a lot of rich men also have mistresses, and some couples are just straight-up polygamous). And no one ever talks about this, but there are actually more men born than women, and on top of that there are more lesbians than gay men. This means that there are a lot more available straight men than straight women. I'm just not good enough to make the cut.
My self-image is fine. I'm clever, I travel, I volunteer, I'm close with my friends and family, I do good in the world. I'm also really physically fit (the only time women are attracted to me is when I take my shirt off lol). However, there is nothing I can do, short of becoming a rich sociopath, that will make up for the deficits I was born with so that I would be "good enough" in the romantic sense. And even if I do become untenably wealthy, the women who are attracted to that won't be attracted to me, but rather to money and material things, which is something I've just never put too much stake in frankly.
It'll be fine, plenty of people live their lives alone. I won't be the first or the last.
Men do not need a support group to "go their own way". We simply make that choice.
After some tribulation, I entered an 8 month period of "VolCel" during which I determined what I wanted from women and what I was willing to give up to get it. At the end, I developed a very long distance relationship with a girl, was online with her for an hour almost every day for 22 months flew there twice for meet/greet/conjugal visits, brought her here and married her. When I wake up to her, I feel like I am cheating fate every day. I have gone my own way right under their noses. I didn't need no fukking sympathy.
Congratulations❤
I think MGTOW is a good thing considering that male inceldom is on the rise for various reasons. But there is a problem with men never leaving it. Like if you're truly "going your own way" you have to move on from the topic at some point.
Five or so years ago, I used to listen to MGTOW content on youtube all the time. Took me about a year, give or take, to hear every single argument from their side, until I began hearing the same thing over and over again.
Now, a pessimistic argument can and often does carry a lot of weight, but I can't be bothered relistening to it every single day. I grew tired of them, having heard everything.
My own personal opinion is that it's a shame that MGTOW has to even exist, but I can understand why some men would go down that route.
@ThisDudeHere Wait until your friends start getting divorced. You will begin to understand.
I think they're just a bunch of cynical guys that need a hug and to be shown compassion. Instead, they're treated to condescension and antagonizing comments, telling them they're not 'real men', which only bolsters their cynicism and overall mistrust of women. At some point they were probably hopeless romantics that got burned one too many times and never really had any closure so that they could properly move on. They just need a good woman to bust down their walls and give them what was missing in their lives.
Well said.
I think this opinion should be the top response to every girl posts about MGTOW. Every one. I might just copy and paste it in the future.
Well at least two women upvoted it.
And if women want men to respect their POV than they need to listen to ours. From what I’ve seen is they only listen when there is something they can from it.
In case no one knows what it means:
Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW /ˈmɪɡtaʊ/) is an anti-feminist, mostly online community advocating for men to separate themselves from a society which they see as harmful to men, and particularly to eschew marriage and cohabitation.[3][4]
The community comprises websites and social media presences as part of what is more broadly termed the manosphere. MGTOW purport to focus on men's self-ownership rather than changing the status quo through activism and protest, which to participants differentiates the community from the men's rights movement.[5][6]
The MGTOW community has been called a misogynistic group, categorised as part of the alt-right and identified as being "on the borders of the hateful incel community" by the Southern Poverty Law Center.
As for my opinion i think it is illogical and breeds more hate than good.
Hi Pony!! How are you tonight. Im chris by the way. 😂✌😎
Hello, nice to meet you.. ☺
Thank you for your response..☺
Ur welcome. 😄🌹
Well I've seen two types of mgtows, the proper ones and the whiny ones.
The porper ones, actually follow the concept. They go their own way, they don't act toxic, are fully functional people who just prefer not to have any relationship or sexual interaction with women.
The whiny ones are the ones who try to get women but can't so go mgtow but don't follow it. They say they don't care about women but spend their days ranting and complaining about how women are somehow evil and horrible cause these women won't sleep with them.
I respect the first types, the second ones are idiots
Bout time somebody clarifies this. Now if it can actually be acknowledged and not tossed to the side like it usually is because it doesn't just use the easier "they are all bad" basket," that'd be great.
I understand the idea.. In some ways I agree with it.. Society basically tells men what and whatnot to do all the time.. "Let's us be independent and do own work".. "Where are the good men at?".. "Step aside and let us take over for a bit".. "A woman shouldn't pay alimony to a man".. I think the philosophy will be adopted by more and more men if society keeps goin the way it is..
I agree with u... and I'm really sad that a lot of men are going through that. There is absolutely a disparity in society between the genders, and even the law, and men get the short end of the stick in A LOT of cases..
I just hope men never forget that there are reasonable women in the world who are level headed, don't subscribe to the gender divide, who are willing to build life with a man...❤
Together.. a true relationship 🤝 TEAMWORK💕
There is such a conversation to be had... ex, why do men pay alimony and not woman? why are female child predators viewed SO much differently than male child predators? Both are horrible... yet MALES who are abused sexually as children are told not to feel hurt, they are not recognized for their victimhood... "they should feel pride that they 'got some'".. just WOW😔
Of course without a doubt.. You are right on the money.. Women and men were made to work together.. But unfortunately women are bein taught to compete with men, and a lot of men don't know how to handle that.. But yeah I feel like society is creatin a lot of bitter men and unhappy women.. But yes Teamwork!.. 😎👉..
I so agree, u are so right, and it's terrible..
I think it really is based on the idea of such independence. Yes, people can and should be independent, but not so much that one doesn't recognize the role of a man/woman in eachother's lives...❤
The yin and the yang 💕
It is a bond like no other, a person with whom you can grow a family!!! There are differences between the sexes, not necessarily in capability, but in socialization and experiences, that should be embraced...❤
Example, a man can be my rock. And I can be the cool water that soothes. Each relationship will play out differently surely. Each partner should give each other the best of their strengths, and help one another with their weaknesses...❤
"I think it really is based on the idea of such independence." Exactly!.. We lost the importance of each other in our lives.. Women wannabe independent from men.. At least a lot think they do, and in turn wanna return the favor, and step away from them.. Its unnatural.. Like you said we compliment each other and we build on each others strengths and weaknesses.. That's how society adavnced.. But I think the vast majority of men and women much an outwardly pleasant attitude towards each other, but Unfortunately are influenced by outside forces.. I think people like you and me are a big minority..
@PonyCarGirl98 Thank you pony car girl, you are spot on.
@KrakenAttackin thanks ❤☺
I think they take simple reasoned ideas and blow them out of proportion into an entire ideology that is fundamentally off base.
The same problems they see i see can simply be fixed by men having a willingness to walk away. The fact so many men can't do that is why they suffer. They put up with bullshit.
MGTOW takes that to the nth degree and say you should get a vasectomy, never get married, forget about specifically white American women, that you should leave the US for an Asiatic island nation, get an Asian woman from there and live rich.
All the while over reinforcing the idea of looks, money and status in regards to what women want. It's very very very toxic and self defeating. That's why I can't stand that shit.
Some of the basic stuff makes sense, but again they just take it too far lol.
Like real concerns they talk about. A single accusation from a female can cost a man a job/career and possibly his freedom based on nothing but her word. Completely true. When I was in college I lived with that paranoia because I knew that was true. I would never put myself in a position where a girl could accuse me without me having some form of defense whether it be Texts, another witness, a public environment. Something. Just in case.
Now while I did that just incase for a possible crazy woman seeking to hurt me i never felt like that was all women. They basically take that risk and say no woman is worth being with because of that risk existing in this nation. I disagree, but again. A reasonable idea based in truth. Just taken to an extreme. They do that for all their ideas
few years later I lost a job, due to a woman lying about me. She was a married woman who came onto me. I turned her down. She accused me of sexual harassment. I got fired.
Turns out the paranoia i had in college would have served me well if I held onto it a few years later in the workplace. I have mmmmany experiences both that I've witnessed happening to friends or happened to me for me to spit on the "believe all women" idea. Or the idea "yea, some women lie but MOST are telling the truth". Yea you can't know that and it's all bullshit. Evidence or nothing at all.
Simple
Everything is domino effect. C going to affect B and B going X and etc.
I feel that.🙏💕
MGTOW is a way for men to avoid living in a Matriarchy that would force them to be slaves, bank accounts, and relationships where they would be cuckholded, or beaten or murdered by women that believe in feminism, which promotes a genocide of men for the purpose of a female only lesbian utopia. The Matriarchy says men are useable and disposable but good for nothing to a woman. So since men are considered to have no value why should they yoke themselves in slavery to a cruel slave owner when he can be divergent from the system and protect himself by giving the women what they want by removing himself from women's lives. MGTOW wouldn't exist if a group of women weren't pushing for total hatred of all men.
MGTOW is the equivalent of the Little Rascals' "Woman Haters Club" ... lol All they have to do is say no to marriage, and or dating if they want to. But instead, they become a "group", or movement of sorts? LOL Childish behavior.
@loveslongnails Sure whatever white knight support that feminism that will ultimately demand you to be killed for women enjoyment.
You're worried about a few "lunatic fringe" fems? Who cares? They're no threat at all.
@loveslongnails And all you feminists male or female support their goals in secret but publicly deny you do. At least the fringe as you call them don't make a public statement that is contradictive to their private statements. Female supremecists can just fuck off.
That's your own fearful sweeping generalization talking. LOL I'm not afraid of a few crazy feminists blowing off steam. But MY definition of the word is vastly different than yours, and there's no point in discussing it.
"White Knights"... the ultimate enablers of women's bad behaviour and the least likely to get laid.
As someone who only see it from the outside, I view it as a response to changes (or the product of changes) in the dynamics between men and women and dating. Women are not getting into monogamous relationships at the same rate as before and they are all trying to have sex with a statistically small subset of the male population. This leaves MGTOW and a lot of younger people without partners. They blame women and specifically feminism for this change. They believe that women are hypergamic and that trait contributes to the situation.
I dont know what is really going on but I assume things are different and that they're not just imagining this. I would love to see stats related to this phenomenon.
I just learned that it is pronounced Mig-Tow
You just described incels. MGTOW and incels are not the same thing.
@alwaysintosomething Ok, I tried but I don't know that much it
@alwaysintosomething
They are though mostly. Many MGTOW are incels in denial, pretending that they're the ones avoiding women and not the other way around. They're right about the treatment of men in divorce courts and all that, but for many of them the whole getting on forums and telling each other how terrible women are is just a cope.
I thought joining this a while ago but I just don’t like the label. MGTOW is NOT a men’s rights activist movement. They are a basically “okay I don’t give a shit about modern feminism bs so I’m going to do my own thing and maybe get a hooker to meet my needs”. As depressing and pathetic that sounds it actually makes sense for some guys. In general women DO hold men to a higher standard than they hold themselves. Especially nowadays. There comes a point the effort, pain, rejection overcomes the possibility of something good. Guys get jaded and realize their effort could be better spent elsewhere.
It is also true that many MGTOW guys just aren’t good with women. But most of them are just borderline guys who would of been probably happily married in a different generation before feminism screwed everything up.
A counter-philosophy that resulted from the previous counter culture (now widely accepted) of feminism, I would say. I see the logic and bitterness of the statements and diatribes. I have experienced some horrible things at the hands of women, outside of relationships primarily. The level of mental damage to men can often be extreme. Nothing is created magically, and humans are blank slates until they are taught, either by indoctrination or experience, to form different perspectives and behaviors. MGTOW is a result of this, and while it can be blamed as a men-only result, or that they are dismissed as incels or ubdesireable men, the fact remains that men are checking out of society and dating, and American fertility numbers also bear this in mind.
Stop being terrible to each other and see what grows. Sadly, I think most Americans are too self- absorbed and greedy.
seems like a very sane reaction to modern western ‘dating’ culture if you can call it that. Relations between men and women are so broken, honestly, I think both genders would do well to ‘go their own way’ for a while and do some introspection. Mgtow is not in any way comparable to feminism, altho it is a reaction to feminism. See, feminism demands society mold around it. Mgtow demands nothing, its just a philosophy some men take up to protect themselves from a world of selfish assholes.
I understand and agree with you..
I think the major reason people take offense is that some of these men generalize women heavily.. I hate being put into the same bin as the hoes that the men tried to turn into housewives and of course were unsuccessful...
The attack on men is wrong. Everything from terms about "manspreading and mainsplaining" (whatever that means, but it is very derogatory toward men) to treating them worse in the legal system..
I understand..
haha yeah some members of the movement are very, very bitter towards women. I mean that's an understatement haha, the beliefs are very dark... and hopeless, essentially something like 'all women are animals, if you love them you're an idiot they will betray you' but in truth, any non spiritual human is that, man or woman. Both men and women can rise above their animalistic nature and achieve higher levels of consciousness. The only real difference is that in modern western society, women's negative tendencies are heavily encouraged and not treated as serious problems, where as men's negative tendencies are very well understood by both the population and the legal system
@PonyCarGirl98 "the hoes that the men tried to turn into housewives and of course were unsuccessful" That actually cracked me up :) I got too involved with a girl I had been dating for a few years, back around 2015. Things were great, right up until she moved into my house. Then within a few months, she had dropped her job, run up about 20k of debt with my name on it, started a heroin habit, and I finally tapped out when she started banging her ex. Couple years later, I got a call from her from a local halfway house. After we got off the phone, I looked up the public court records and found out she had gotten busted for... you guessed it, prostitution. Yikes I'm so glad I had gotten out of that disaster with only a financial mess to clean up. That could have been a LOT worse !
So I can totally back your advice there. Don't try to make a hoe into a housewife. (even if you've known her for years, and she's never given the slightest hint she was a hoe waiting to happen)
I hope she has gotten her life back on track.
It's funny that leaving women alone and not associating with them is considered the height of misogyny.
Especially when most women spend all their time complaining about guys who won't leave them alone. These guys do, and the women are still pissed!
Hilarious. The two things women hate most in the world are getting what they want and not getting what they want.
@bananaman177 Yes, this is really the crux of it all. When men try to please women, women are pissed. When men ignore women, women are pissed. Modern women simply are not capable of being happy.
I'm an anti feminist but would not like to call myself an mgtow... i just prefer to have that old lifestyle where a man is a man and a woman is a woman...
The man is the provider and the woman is the nurturer...
The respectful decent housewife and the husband who is head of the house, both forms an eternal sacred marriage and family...
I respect and understand that...
Thank you, Tony Metal 🤘😎💕
Your welcome miss pony 🐴
@TonyMetal___86 This is where I am as well. Once we lost respect for a man being a man and told women it is OK to be a super-whore, the gender dynamics went to hell.
@KrakenAttackin well said...
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