How are girls independent if they rely on men to get married and have relationships?

[chris_987]

Can you truly be independent if you depend on men to be confident enough to approach you

[Seinna]

It's one thing to rely on a man because you need to for survival, because the culture in your country doesn't let you live independently... and something else entirely if you do it because it makes you feel like a woman and that he's taking care of you. Both could work if men were all good and reliable but history shows that some took advantage of women's disadvantaged position by either abusing them or cheating, knowing she had nowhere else to go. It's a serious power imabalance and if you're lucky to find a true gentleman then you've won a lottery... but most people are not gentle. Even good people can turn into not so good people when they have such an advantage over another, after years of marriage when they grow bitter and resentful. Being in a traditional relationship where partners each chose to adopt their traditional roles is very different from being dependent on someone for survival.

Also, I don't like to say I'm dependent on a man to approach me even thought that's the only way I'd have it - some will and some won't. If they want to but can't then it's better that nothing comes out of it... men need to be brave and that doesn't mean not experiencing fear but being able to overcome it. If a man can't even approach a girl then how is he going to protect his family in the future? He can't. Approaching a girl is like the first level of many towards procreation to ensure that only those who are strong and fit will get to do it and their offspring won't be weak and will have the best chance in life. Women in general don't procreate with men out of pity, because they see he likes them but is too shy to approach them so they do all the work. Nope.

[chris_987]

You actually used logic and facts, to make and argument, I'm impressed. But I'm 100% sure you didn't realize you've proved my point. Which is what happens when you use logic.

[Seinna]

Well look at it this way - I could be with a man whom I myself approach. But why? In my experience it's best to let men think they're in control and if they try harder they value you more. And no matter what, there will be men who will approach me (if I were single). So back to my first point - there's a difference between actually being dependent on someone and choosing to play it out for strategic reasons - ie because you will both benefit from it in the end. Yet we both remain independent in our ability to walk away if we chose to (which sadly many people do and supposedly it's mostly women).

[chris_987]

But women don't let men think they're in control. Men just are in control. If you choose somebody because they're taller than you because they're stronger than you because they make more money than you news flash you want that person to be in control of you. If you don't feel like they're in control like you can tell them what to do and they listen to you and you're just leave or you'll stay and just resent him either way, it's pretty much known that women don't like men like that.

[chris_987]

Oh and last question, what do you think the reason would be for men to want to be able to approach women? Because their approaching women for a different reason than you're approaching men.

[Seinna]

You really undermine women if you think this way. And you still stubbornly reject the concept I've been trying to explain to you from the very beginning. You know I considered writing it again in different words but I think I'll rest my case. You're set in your ways so there's no point in debating this any longer... as for your last question though - deep down we all want the same things. Some of us are more corrupted by this world than others and it takes them longer to realize it but most will eventually. If not, there's nothing else left but to feel sorry for them.

[PinkMichae]

I think it's a healthy balance to be independent and dependent. And I don't see relying on a man for some things as bad. They rely on us too. Whether you realize it or not you will always rely on men and women because they are a big part of this world. It just might not be how you expected. Like maybe the house you live in was built by men. More likely than not that car you use and the roads you drive on were made by men and maybe some women. It may be the female or male doctors and nurses you'll come to depend on for your health.

The point is unless you live on a deserted island and built everything yourself, hunt everything you eat, etc... you'll never be 100% independent.

Like I said, you got to find that healthy Balance and realize being dependent on some things isn't bad. And it doesn't mean you aren't an independent woman or man.

[PinkMichae]

And yes you can still be independent if you depend on a man to be confident enough to approach you.

[chris_987]

But your depending on him which would mean you are not Independent. A truly independent women would approach men and learn how to keep a guy through trial and error like what men do with women.

[AmysQs5]

Well everyone depends on someone, that's the whole point. Right now I live alone and take care of myself, making me independent. If a man approaches me to ask me out, that doesn't make me less independent

[chris_987]

If you're electricity goes out are you depend on man to come in and fix it?

[PinkMichae]

@chris_987 You are stereotyping Women by saying they all won't initiate an encounter with a man. I can tell you I have. And it didn't turn out well the first time. But I always go for what I want. It doesn't mean I haven't been asked out first tho. Especially by a guy I wasn't expecting to ask me.

Still, even if Women do prefer to be pursued by a man. That doesn't take away from everything she does that makes her independent. Like I said, there's a healthy balance of independence and dependence in life.

You can keep telling women what you believe makes a woman truly independent. But it's not going to make women start to fall all over you. So think what you want. I disagree.

[chris_987]

It's not a stereotype to assume that most people are Afraid of confrontation and a woman has even more of a reason not to trust a gender who is capable of killing her with there bare hand. So if men who aren't threatened by women still are hesitant to approach a woman it is more than likely and even smaller subset of woman are approaching men. To the point where it's so insignificance to even mention. But usually when a girl is ready to argue the 0.0001% of women I just a agree with her so that I don't waste both of our times.

[PinkMichae]

@chris_987 my biggest argument is your claim a woman isn't independent if she waits for the man to make the first move. As far as most women not making the first move there's a reason for it. If it's still true the majority doesn't make the first move. It's hard to change hundreds of years of societal beliefs. Women that were aggressive enough to make the first move were often thought of as sluts. We were also taught boys like the thrill of the chase and aggressive girls were only good for sex.

So with hundreds if not thousands of years of society making us fear going after a guy, can you really blame women for not asking a guy out? But still I believe more women today ask guys out despite societies shame toward women who do. At least more than they did back when I was a teenager. Definitely more than women of the 50's.

So you are likely correct that most women won't ask a man out. But you are wrong that it means they aren't independent. That's my argument.

[chris_987]

Why would be a slut matter if you goal is to just have a child and raise them on your own? Maybe because in order to get commitment from a guy you need to be the opposite of independent so that a guy could actually take care of you. You probably don't realize this but your proving my point. And with marriage rates the lowest they ever been it's possible that women saying they are independent is cause men to not want to take care of them so thus they can't can't get commitment anymore which provides that women are dependent on men for commitment.

# circular reasoning

[Vickymoore9]

That’s not true especially today when most women have the better paying and stable careers. Most women it’s proven fact have better credit than men as well today. Most men don’t have a savings, they owe more they they have in net worth unlike many women today. That’s why you have so many women who are single and just dating today. There was a time when women didn’t work and wasn’t apart of the work force making a sustainable income. Today most men can’t hold a job more then 5 years where like my self I have almost 20 years at the same career I got out of high school as a realtor now broker. So your post isn’t factual or relevant to what’s really happening today in society.

[chris_987]

So your saying that men don't measure up to most women. But if they did then you think women would start going after men that are better than them, because that's what there looking for?

[Vickymoore9]

Absolutely not the case for me personally I don’t care about how much a man makes as long as he lives within his means. I won’t be with a guy who has a hobby he can’t afford and digging himself in debt. My boyfriend is a carpenter he makes good money he isn’t wealthy I make a lot more than he does. But it doesn’t matter to me how much he makes he is very thrifty with what he does make. I like him for the many things that matter to me in a relationship that’s amazing. I wasn’t saying most men don’t stand up to standards I’m just stating the facts many women aren’t dependent on a man and are self sustainable. I don’t need my boyfriend to take care of me I got that shit taken care of. I think there are both men and women who are looking for a mommy or daddy in a relationship to take care of them. When I graduated my dad told me I had a year to get my shit together and be a women get my own place. I just think both genders have weak players that’s a fact who can’t take care of themselves!

[chris_987]

I think you miss understood what I said, I never said a woman wasn't independent if she can't take care of herself. I said a woman is dependent on men for relationship because we are the ones who approach and seduce you. If all men stop approaching women. then there's nothing they can do about It. So by that logic women are dependent on men to get sex because we initiate it.

[Vickymoore9]

Your absolute wrong 100 percent getting your information from cracker jacks boxes. Men are weak and can’t survive without a woman to take care of their needs! Men will always break and come begging for a woman affections or they will wilt and die lol The fact is your just wrong and confused and insignificant to women as you have suffered so much rejection. This rejection doesn’t mean your right it just clarifies I am right!

[chris_987]

Oh sorry my bad, your right I never saw it that way. Men are weak

[Vickymoore9]

Dam right I’m right!

[nao111]

Same question can be asked about men , dont you think:How are MEN independent if they rely on women to get married and have relationships?
Both genders depend on one another in that aspect, a man's marriage or dating future also depends on whether the girl he asked said yes or not.
Let's not rule out possibilities of girls asking guys out or asking guys for marriage too.
But honestly though , independence isn't about relationships. It's more about being able to stand your ground and be able to live without dpeending on anyone. It means being able to take care of the CONTROLLABLE parts of life.
The unpredictable parts are always there, of course. We can't control everyhing.

[chris_987]

Girls asking guys out on dates. Happens is about as much as girls dating men that are shorter than them. And men don't necessarily approach women wanting relationships or marriage, most of the time it's just because you're hot and they want to see where it goes and if it's just ends up being sex, men are completely okay with that. But then again, what do I know?

[shaysh87]

independence has nothing with wanting to being approached. Independence means self sufficient. Just because a woman is self sufficient, it does not mean she has the big guts to do absolutely everything in the world. I suggest you stop following misogynists and go get a dictionary and look up the definition of "independent"

[chris_987]

Wow I can't even ask a question without being labeled as a mysoginist, welcome to womenhood where every inquiry is treated with shame and insults. Glad I'm not a girl I would be able to voice any opinions

[shaysh87]

@chris_987

its not my fault that you don't even know the definition of independence.

[chris_987]

Who said it was your fault

[shaysh87]

you did.

[chris_987]

That's your opinion

[shaysh87]

you just called me a whole bunch of names

[chris_987]

When did I do that

[mermaidcancermoon]

Independence is a state of physical and mental wellbeing. It means one wouldn't die if they werent in a relationship and aren't codependent on others. Thats all there is to it. Some guys read waaayyy deeper into women independence than it actually is. It shouldn't be an attack or offense if a woman can hold her own. isn't it true that a guy doesn't want to be used? she's less likely to use you if she has her own.

[chris_987]

Wow I see why some guys have foot fetishes.

But no guy don't feel used because we literally make money and are designed to share resources. If you sent every guy back in to a time where women where dependant on men for survival do you think we'd feel used? Nope we'd finally feel like the hero on our story. The neediest girls are the most submissive every guy knows this.

[Amy10223]

By the same token, how are MEN independent if they rely on women to get married and have relationships? That’s your thinking in reverse.
You can be married and be independent as well. Independence means able to do things in your own. Marriage doesn’t necessarily take it away if you can survive with or WITHOUT your partner.

[chris_987]

Yin and Yang

[Smoke-n-Growls]

Marriage... Doesn't need a man. Fyi. And women can propose, too.

Bro, if you want a woman who will sweep you off your feet and carry you down the aisle, that's totally valid.

[chris_987]

Less than 1% of women propose. But yet you thought it's was valid argument. Yeah your right

[woman_2004]

Women are not independent. I rely on my dad and male counterparts all the time. It’s nature.

[TenderFantasy]

How are men independent if they rely on a woman to give birth to their child?

[chris_987]

There not in that case

[nice-girl]

Why not be independent? I’m independent. I lead my life, he leads the relationship.

[chris_987]

But he convinced you, you didn't convince him. So if guys are attracted to most women, then it up to us to convince you

[nice-girl]

That’s a good thing because I don’t have to waste my time considering the possibility of being with someone who hasn’t declared that he wants to be with me. I will be happy with or without someone or a specific person so I see it as being independent.

[LazerBean]

Because we don't depend on the to marry us and initiate relationships.

[chris_987]

It's a fact of life, if all men decided to watch porn or just have sex with robots, are women are ever getting laid again?

[LazerBean]

There will always be decent men who want traditional wives, plus I'm already married to one, so that's of no concern to traditional women like myself. It would be beneficial to humanity if every loser decided to only watch porn and have sex with robots, because then we would get rid of their poor genetics.

[chris_987]

But then you'd end up sharing men. Because in every society and XX chromosome is easier to produce than a XY chromosome. Now if half of those men become losers and women don't want them. Then that means your gonna have to share a small minority of men. So either way, you're only ending up in this situation because men aren't living up to your standards, so therefore you're still dependent on men.

[LazerBean]

Lol that definitely is a thought process and conclusion of someone who didn't have a good father figure as a child and has never associated with conservatives.

[chris_987]

What? So are we just insulting each other or are we have a logical conversation

[LazerBean]

That wasn't an insult, that was the logical explanation for your poor thought process and lack of understanding on what a decent man is and how losers are developed.

[chris_987]

Ok describe what would happen to the women who can't get a decent man because all of the men are losers. What does she do then?

[LazerBean]

There will never and never had been a point in time where all men are losers, so that is not a relevant or logical question.

[chris_987]

Incorrect, there have been plenty of time where most men preferred same sex relationship to the point where there wives where still virgins. But you'd have to know something about human nature to realize that

[chris_987]

Hell girls have no problem being in sex relationship now and men are no different

[LazerBean]

"Most" is not "all". That is a very basic concept. And as you can see, such occasions as you have described have not made up any significant amount of time during history for obvious reasons. Which further supports what I said about losers dying without reproducing and bettering society as a result.

[chris_987]

Ok I see what your saying, my mistake

[LazerBean]

All good

[wheresmrcunnunglis]

you seem to be confusing hyper independence with independence. Very different.

[far2gud4u]

I am independent but I will approach a man :)

[chris_987]

Congratulations on doing most women pretend to do

[far2gud4u]

I like to take control of things I want

[Anonymous]

women can marry women as well yk

[pankyvic]

They just missing dick

[chris_987]

They can't get if a man doesn't give it to them