Why can't we make burkas more socially acceptable?

[Anonymous]

I'd love that. Then I'd no longer be responsible for how men act around me and would NEVER be blamed for it, since there would be close to zero chance that I've not covered up or hidden something they find attractive and then they can be responsible for what they do around women. We've to remember some mens "natural behaviour" and incapability to control themselves.

Updates

1 y

I am not a troll just because I don't want to be blamed for what men do based on what I wear.
I'm not a troll because I choose to cover up because men think how I dress must be for them, and if a man happens to be attracted to me - then he is entitled to give me the attention he thinks I wish for and I've no right to be upset about it what happens. - the thing about not being allowed to be upset about attention I don't want is the ringer here.

Updates

1 y

And just for info, I've had women blame mens actions on me too but only one on here, so this is centered around me wanting to take every step I can to protect myself so I won't be in a harms way again and thus can't be blamed as I've been so many times in my life.
I do apologise sincerely, that it hurts so many feelings and I'll go back to looking inwards and put the blame where it belongs - on me for not always keeping myself safe growing up. Me for not taking every measure I could.
I'm out.

[Shiprex]

There are women here who do wear those and aren't given any more attention than most of the women who don't. Do they get looked at? Yes, stared at probably no but they do wear them and do get noticed. Just like the pale skinned, fair haired, blue eyed people who go to distant countries and spend money and sometimes get robbed and murdered. But that's rare.
Seeing is not harmful, looking is not harmful, watching is not harmful.
Being offended because someone sees, looks or watches you IS harmful to yourself, to others you want to control the behaviour of because you feel entitled to have their behaviour controlled by YOUR ego is HARMFUL.

[Asker]

Yes, they are noticed because as it is now they're not socially acceptable. Unlike women showing a little skin in public in Western society it is not normal to see. Seeing a shoulder or cleavage is not abnormal or out of the ordinary. Stop acting as is is.

And I don't think others looking at me is harmful nor do I want to control other people's actions: I wish people didn't blame other people's actions on ME because those people can not control themselves. I wish I could wear what I wished and be allowed to be upset about attention I do not want because apparently everything I do is to gain attention fromen.

[Asker]

Hence my question "why can't we make them more socially acceptable" - so they are not out of the ordinary, and thus less noticed, so certain people can stop blaming me for the actions of others.

[Shiprex]

YOU¨VE been blaming men for LOOKING at you as a form of abuse (liking it to rape, molestation and making you feel uncomfortable).
I don't know why you keep insisting that attention WON'T or SHOULDN'T be given and that YOUR reaction should be deemed the deciding expectation that others should follow.
Wear what you like, accept the consequences it's that simple. Don't whine about feeling uncomfortable but STARING or even noticing because it ONLY becomes harmful when direct communication happens especially if that is physical.

[Shiprex]

They are socially acceptable though. People wear them and are accepted for doing so. They get attention and probably not always positive attention. It's accepted NOT forced or expected ACCEPTED 100% all the time. Looking commenting, making observations has nothing to do with it.
NOT disallowed.

[Asker]

No I haven't. I've even said on multiple of accounts it's not about men looking, however due to my experience with men it HAS made me uncomfortable and outright scared at times because as a woman I don't know when it STOPS at a look, or when men will approach and not understand no thank you. - here men like you swoop in and tell me, "well you wore what you did to attract attention and thus have no right to be upset" .

I choose to cover up, not because no man is allowed to look at me and find me attractive, I choose to cover up in case it doesn't stop with a look and I get blamed for it.

[Asker]

Which is why speaking to you guys, have let me to cover up more - because as you say if I don't, I'm not allowed to be upset by the attention I get, if I want it or not.

[Asker]

@shiprex they not, they sadly get to much attention because it is not socially acceptable - people look with a side eye.

[Shiprex]

No where have I said that anything beyond looking, seeing staring, ogling and all the other emotive terms you use because you want men to STOP looking. It WILL ATTRACT attention and being attractive isn't a crime nor a curse which you seem to be unable to escape from believing.
You being scared isn't because of harmless looking but because YOU expect men to do things that may have happened in the past and therefore you expect them to happen again that the men around you have zero knowledge of, zero intention of doing and zero responsibility toward YOUR FEELINGS. This is a YOU insecurity not a THEM behaviour.

[Shiprex]

LOOK WITH A SIDE EYE is not harming anyone. Just like dirty looks women throw around at everyone when something they don't like happens (women are far more visually expressive).
Most burkha wearers dgaf about being looked at and I say good on them even though they look like they're being rude because they are hiding from view and suspicious but that's my take as my cultural trait.

[Asker]

@shiprex

Didn't say it was harmful. You seem to be very upset about looks tho (I'm not), I dislike the notion about not being allowed to be upset getting attention I do not wish for (attention can include in more than looking, however that is often how it starts) because I'm not fully covered up.

Not that being fully covered up helps, because it seems like I'm simply not allowed to be upset by men's action no matter what I do - note, I've never implied all men are like you, or that all men are bad.

In fact most are not, thing is that I can't see when a man is a good one - or if he's like you.

[Asker]

@shiprex

I'll push it to the fact that men like you around, and will be wearing what I want again but for now I can't because you people truly have reminded me how men can be

[Shiprex]

@nordicinscandinavia
I find your communication style very tiresome and childish to the point that it seems to me that you are more troubled by others from the immaturity of your bearing than the clothes your choose to wear or not. Every single comment has some kind of ad hominem insult and it's not doing your standing well at all.
Try harder

[Asker]

@shiprex

Likewise. I'm troubled by your kind, and yes pointing out that I'm aware that not all men are like you, and thus will be showing a shoulder or a little leg at some point again is me showing that I in fact don't think all men are shit or dangerous.

I know that there are men out there capable of controling themselves and don't blame women for how they behave based on skin.

[Shiprex]

@nordicinscandinavia
You're upset at being shown to be irrational. Though the last sentence is evidence you have the capacity to be so.
Clothed or partially clothed you will get attention. This is good because then you're seen as a person who has value and may need help or support. Is that ok attention for you? You drop something and everyone ignores you and you lose it or should someone who SEES you drop something and does something about it to GET your attention to the dropped item?

You choose to believe that this looking, seeing, ogling, staring etc. is all the same when all you need to do is IGNORE it like you do to most people around you instead of checking to see if they're ogling, seeing, looking, staring etc. and go about your business without bothering yourself over nothing
That there are shitty people around is a known, men know this because they're killed, beaten, stabbed, mugged etc. lots and it's strangers always. With women though they should be less bothered by strangers and more bothered by the people near to them who are much more likley to be the ACTUAL perpetrators of violence against them

[Asker]

@shiprex what? Drop something? What the hell you on about.

Again, I did say I had MANAGED to IGNORE the looks until you guys came along, reminding me of the thought process of some men.

Oh don't worry, I'm aware I'm on need of therapy - already there, and me scanning my environment is how I survived growing up and believe me I fricking wish I could just turn it off. I don't know how many times I have to say that I know not all men are bad, I just can't see on a man when he's like you or not.

[Shiprex]

@nordicinscandinavia
More ad hominem insults doesn't make you sound like you're interested in an actual learning experience.
WEAR what you like, be aware people will notice, some will look YOU should learn to not give a fuck until someone steps over the personal space boundary then make it known you're scared to those around you. If you think you have any right to force others behaviour that harms NOT ONE SINGLE CELL OF YOUR BODY but your ego then that's up to you to fix, they aren't mind readers.

[Anonymous]

No one is saying you can’t wear it. It’s a free country. So as you please. I’m sure a majority of men don’t act the way you’re describing is toward women. The funny thing is a lot of women can turn a lot of nothings into something. So if he’s not attractive or whatever then him simply glancing at her is considered starring or checking her out. I’m sure men experience a lot of things too. We just don’t make a big deal of it cause it’s not a big deal the way a lot of women tend to think of it.

[Anonymous]

You must live on a different planet than I do. All those horrible problems you are worrying about don't really happen in real life where I live.

[Asker]

Lucky you.

I'm frankly just thinking about ending it all since clearly NOTHING I do will be good enough, and I'm just a man hating female who's out to get men. I'm to blame for everything that happened. Had sorted that out before coming to this shit site but yeah.

[katiesmuff]

Because most of us don't care to wearing that garb! I personally have no issue with the way I'm treated around men!

[Asker]

I don't have a issue with most men, but have had enough issues with some men and being reminded about them and how they think has done it so I do everything in my power not to attract them. And makes me actually feel and be unsafe around those I don't know again, not knowing who think my appearance is an invite to whatever.

It's like wearing a seatbelt. When I put it on, I don't it because I think all drivers are out to get me but because I want to be safe in case it is the wrong one around me.

[Asker]

And it shouldn't be socially acceptable because you don't wish to wear it?

That's quite messed up.

[katiesmuff]

Said that wrong! I really don't care what anyone else wears, but a burkas is not for me and I sure don't set the social standards these days.

[Asker]

Now I'm with yah.
They not for me either, to much fabric however it would remove all responsibility from me on how men act around me if I wore one. And that I'd be a fan off. 😂

[DryGermanGuy]

No, thanks. We are not turning liberal Western democracies into another theocratic Saudi-Arabia just to accommodate you. 🙄

[Asker]

But it wouldn't be to accommodate me but the men who can not behave based on how I dress.

[Shiprex]

I don't understand what you're saying here.

[Shiprex]

Most likely a man who saw a woman being pestered which isn't the same as being looked at or ogled or stared at and he felt able to would step in and help. A lot of men may not because they too would be threatened and the result could become worse as stepping in may antagonise the perpetrator but that's not a given. Even other women being brought in cold deescalate the situation.
Now imagine if a guy was being hassled by women and pushed around, slapped, screamed at and all the other things you can see in the streets at night. Who would step in and save him?

[Asker]

@Shiprex You're right. I could IMPOSSIBLY ever stand up for other guys. Your examples here remove my experiences. You're right. I should just accept that whatever I do then I can't control men and thus I must do everything in my power to cover up, so I can accommodate the men who can't behave when seeing what they like.

I've been assaulted in public by men and men did nothing. I've come to mens defend when I see women pestering them. Because I know better than to find that acceptable. I don't defend it, or tell the men just to "hide themselves".

I've been hassled by men, pushed around, slapped and screamed at. I've had adult men driving behind me in a car, telling me how fuckable I was as a young teenagers. But you're right.

[HungTexan]

I just don’t see why you’d want to be totally covered up. I’m pretty sure God didn’t have that in mind.

[Asker]

So I can NEVER be questioned if I'm responsible for mens actions or not or that I've asked for their attention or not.

+ People would never question if I had self respect or not.

[HungTexan]

It’s not your problem if men react to seeing you. It’s their problem. They’re responsible for their own actions.

[Asker]

Except according to quite a few then my clothes are respinsible for how they act

[HungTexan]

They’re full of shit! Ignore them.

[Asker]

Wish I could. But they be loud and pushing under the self blame I've always had. This place as convinced me it's all me.