If you're considering killing because you were involuntarily committed to a mental health ward, then it seems to me that's exactly where you need to stay. I accidentally clicked no on your poll but I meant yes.
Because I think something would be justified doesn't mean I'm considering it moron -_-
OK, well lets apply that logic elsewhere; the Dachau liberation reprisals where after the camp was liberated 500+ the SS guards were slaughtered. Most of them were lined up and shot by the American soldiers (and they didn't aim for their head, they shot them in the gut and left them to die) but around 40 of the guards were killed by the inmates. Now many of the people in the camps were not only Jews but political prisoners; those detained because they were deemed "a threat to State security". But then because they killed the guards (agents of the State) the Nazis could just as easily say "If you're considering killing because you were involuntarily sent to a concentration camp because you were deemed a threat to state security, then it seems to me that's exactly where you need to stay."
#facepalm
Does anyone realize that saying that the logic behind something is the same isn't saying that the magnitude of the offense is the same -_-
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I happened to be in a Tier one PhD program in a STEM field. The only one who's making themselves sound stupider is you.
Uh yeah. People who are crazy enough to do such a thing NEED to be committed there, whether or not it was involuntary does not matter when you have lives at stake.
Not all people who kill for revenge are crazy and (contrary to popular belief) the psych ward can make people even crazier just like some medications can end up making people sicker. Why don't people ever take this into account?
Most people who are crazy do not believe that they are crazy. As far as I'm concerned your parents were right.
Well, my medical papers showed no sign of a mental disorder that would put me or others at risk BUT afterward I was plagued with suicidal thoughts. Like I said, in medicine cures can be worse than illnesses and this is no less true in psychiatry. Why is such a simple concept so difficult for people to understand?
Things that seem rational to those who are mentally ill can seem very irrational to those who aren't.
What part of NO DIAGNOSIS OF A MENTAL DISORDER WAS MADE don't you understand?
And thinking it's justified that people who forcibly detain others for no crimes that they have committed isn't a sign of mental illness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fA5_kS9lbU
@bobbyxxx Border Line Personality Disorder.
yes that is a bad think, that means the person had gotten help and left and then cam back just to kill someone. it turns out who ever had them involuntarily committed was right to do so
No it doesn't, you're being Waaaaay to presumptuous. Not all people who kill are mentally ill.
Also, just like certain medications can make people sicker the psych ward can make people even more crazy.
than what is the motive? if the person is really suicidal just off themselves there is no reason to kill someone else if that is all you want
Because they forcibly detained you is a pretty good reason to do so.
than do you think it is acceptable for former prisoners to go around killing prison guards?
No, because the prisoners were detained because they harmed someone else but the patient would have been detained because of a suspicion that he would have killed him/herself.
So a more fitting analogy would be this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fA5_kS9lbU
that isn't a equal example. that was a holocaust people were being killed for being born. what happened to you was someone was trying to look out for you, there may have been a better way of doing, but that doesn't make it right go and senselessly kill people
1. I'm not saying go out and kill anyone (which would be senseless killing)
2. "what happened to you was someone was trying to look out for you" What happened to me was someone depriving me of all my rights on a false basis. I'm tired of people telling me this "your parents did it because they were concerned about you and loved you" garbage. Not withstanding that new evidence has come fourth that they were using it as a means of coercion, what matters to me is not intent but the end result. Besides, that locking people up makes them feel like crap and is not something you do out of love.
3. Many people are born with mental illnesses and punished for it in the psych ward and Dachau wasn't a death camp.
what does it matter if Dachau was a death camp or not? while you may have had a bad experience doesn't mean that most of the time when someone is committed involuntarily it is because the committer is trying to help. and someone going out and killing people for the sake of revenge is what we have been talking about
If someone has tetanus they can refuse treatment even though they will die otherwise. Why can't the decision to end one's life be there's and there's alone for physical and psychiatric illnesses? Also, where the inmates who were involved in the Dachau reprisals justified (because many guards were killed by inmates too).
Also, this video explains why people are committed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QmzCVHzMsY
honestly I think it is because religious stigma that still have a hold on people. I give it few years before that ends. and yes those inmates were totally justified in killing the guards. stop comparing what happened to you to the holocaust they are not comparable
that video explains why some are committed by the worst kind of people. the original reasons was to help
Well, I'm not saying that I'm going to but in both cases a person was detained against their will for a crime that they didn't commit and as long as that fact remains true the analogy is perfectly fitting. FYI, I'm not saying it was anywhere near as bad as what a Holocaust victim went through, what I'm saying is that the justification for the reprisal is the same.
And why do you think psych wards are almost always filled to capacity?
the Nazis didn't even bother to come up with a bogus charge, they just took them because they were Jewish. when someone is committed they have to at least come up with a reason fake or otherwise. the analogy doesn't fit. and the psych ward is normally full because there are a lot of dangerous mentally ill people
Um the charge was that they were born Jewish and the charge for psychiatric commitment is that they were born with a mental illness. And just as people with mental illnesses can be locked up for what they tell their psychiatrist because "they are a threat to themselves" the Nazis forcibly detained political prisoners for expressing their views because "they were a threat to state security". If not the Holocaust what about Japanese-American interment in WW2?
the Japanese interment camp is closer to what you are wanting, cause it wasn't about what they did it is about what they might do, without any real evidence for it. but that really doesn't matter, going back and killing out of revenge is wrong
Again, the Dachau reprisal by the inmates was solely out of revenge.
no that is justice. when you spend your life in the sole pursuit of detaining or killing another race, when those people get free and kill their tormenters that is justice, besides according to that clip most of them were gunned down by the American soldiers who freed them. killing for no other reason than they were angry, that is vengeance
And when you spend your life in pursuit of victims to lock up so you can leech them for every cent without their consent and treat them like rabid dogs, when those people get free and kill their tormenters that is justice.
And when someone denies the right to chose life of the person who has denied them the right to chose death, that is justice.
so you are saying everyone who is committed should be set free right now, even those that are dangerous, that have killed and would kill again once free. why stop there why not release all criminals as well, hell throw in the terrorists while we are at it. maybe a handful of those committed are wrongfully committed, and it isn't even for life, after all they let you go. that handful doesn't equal an entire race in suffering.
"so you are saying everyone who is committed should be set free right now, even those that are dangerous, that have killed and would kill again once free."
If they killed they shouldn't be in a hospital they should be in prison.
"why stop there why not release all criminals as well, hell throw in the terrorists while we are at it." Because they already HAVE (not might) committed a crime.
"maybe a handful of those committed are wrongfully committed, and it isn't even for life, after all they let you go. that handful doesn't equal an entire race in suffering." Again, I never said it was the same amount of pain but in other fields of medicine people can refuse treatment.
you keep saying you are not comparing the two but yet you were quick to through the holocaust into the same mix.
"And when someone denies the right to chose life of the person who has denied them the right to chose death, that is justice." killing isn't equal to trying save someone's life, even if they don't want to be saved
I said that the underlying principal is the same, not the quantity of suffering. Also trying to save someone's life isn't "saving their life" it's denying them the right to do what they want to do with their being.
The suicidal person wants to die and the employee wants to live and in both cases this choice is being denied from the individual so it is on par 100%
comparisons like that are what get people committed in the first place, what make death equal to life? death there is no nothing just rotting in the ground, life can and does get better
Besides, even if one is not the same, how many victims do you think those people detained in those institutions, more than just one I guarantee you.
"what make death equal to life? death there is no nothing just rotting in the ground, life can and does get better" For some people life is so bad that they prefer death.
WHICH IS WHY PEOPLE COMMIT SUICIDE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!
Besides, they're "not saving people even if they don't want them to"
That would be like forcing some one to get treated from tetanus if the don't want to (which doctors CANNOT do). What they're doing is preventing the person from consciously ending their own life (and not all in psych wards are delusional/psychotic).
want to know what I think about suicide, it is for the weak, only the truly weak would give up so completely as to end their own life. the only time I find it acceptable is if someone is dying a slow death from disease like cancer or something, something that will slowly waste them away to nothing. not just because you were depressed.
doctors used to force treatment on people, they thought it better to save someone, than just let them die. until sometimes the treatment were much worse than the death itself. soon I think the same might be true for this.
only a handful of people in psych word are wrongfully committed.
Did I ask what you think about suicide? NOOOOOO. Even though your claim is utter crap
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjPkBKZXy74
Because that's not the point. Whatever reason people decide to commit suicide for is their choice and theirs alone. In fact in Belgium they allow people suffering from Depression to chose to be Euthanized. Like I said, you can't force people to get treated for a disease even if it is easily treatable and fatal if non treated. Yeah, misdiagnoses happen but that's no excuse to force people to get treated. "want to know what I think about suicide, it is for the weak, only the truly weak would give up so completely as to end their own life." Then why care so much as to force them to stop if they're so weak?
who said I gave a shit either way? if someone wants to off themselves let them. but your whole thing is about stopping someone who wanted to take their own life and got committed for it, so why wouldn't suicide come into it? and if that clip was supposed to show me an acceptable suicide that wasn't from a disease you failed, I really didn't think I need to say it but any kind of tremendous physical pain would qualify, including getting set on fire. not depression
1. Getting set on fire is enormous physical pain while depression is intense psychological pain (and both are temporary) so I succeeded in routing your argument.
2. " if someone wants to off themselves let them. but your whole thing is about stopping someone who wanted to take their own life and got committed for it, so why wouldn't suicide come into it?" that makes no sense.
fire is temporary because shortly after you are dead, plus if you serve you have to live with sever burns for the rest of your life, so the effects are not really temporary. depression is truly temporary. so you route nothing.
your whole question is about if it is fair for someone who was denied as "you put it" a right to die, and being force to live. so suicide is a big part of it
Fire isn't guaranteed to be fatal and prolonged stress/depression can cause permanent neurological problems (google PTSD) so I routed everything. Also of course suicide is a big part of it but not the reason why people do it.
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Oh, c'mon, dude, you seriously think that people are going to coddle you and tell you that that's okay behaviour?
Do you think that the prisoners at Dachau were justified in killing their captors?
I do not consider the institutionalisation of someone for their own protection to be the same thing as the imprisonment of those who would be flogged, starved, force to labour and face other horrible punishments. If you do consider that to be the same thing, I would believe you have a very egotistical and self-victimising view of the world.
Saying the logic behind a motive is the same doesn't mean that the magnitude of the crime is the same. Why can't people get this through their heads. And if you haven't been (wrongfully) institutionalized then do you think you should be judging?
Here's an example of what I'm saying:
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Was the civil rights situation in the US in the 1950s-1960s anywhere as bad as the situation in the Holocaust? Absolutely not. But does that make the quote any less valid? Again absolutely not.
I think that yeah, you can be judging. Have you been placed in the position of being terrified your child is going to hurt themselves and wanting what's best for them and having to make one of the hardest decisions you could make, all with good intentions? I doubt it, and yet you constantly judge your parents here.
People don't send their children to psych wards to protect them but to punish them. My parents said they would only let me out if I agreed to be better behaved and continually threatened me with sending me back.
Also, remember even if a doctor has "the best of intentions" if he botches a treatment resulting in long term damage, he or she can still be held liable.
Oh and FYI, if you're the victim of someone's action, you have EVERY RIGHT to judge them.
Please tell me you can see at least the most basic flaws in your way of thinking -_-
Not until you admit the flaws in yours. Until then, I'm done with this.
But do you not think it would be OK to judge those that have harmed you?
Not when their intentions are good.
1. If a doctor over-medicated a patient they can be sued even with no evidence of malicious intent.
2. I have recently been seeing my old psychiatrist whom was familiar with the case and their is strong evidence that it was meant to punish.
Although the penalties for the doctor will be worse if there is evidence of malicious intent.
Also, wow, and to think you say I should see the flaws in my logic but you use already refuted points.
That person deserves locked up if they do something like that.
Well I mean if they decided to kill themselves and do it immediately afterwards
Well then there was obviously a reason they were sent to the mental ward. That's just idiotic.
Not really. I was wrongfully sectioned based on a misdiagnosis by my parents when I was 16 and it was the worst experience of my life. I never had suicidal thoughts before but have been plagued with them ever since. Since then I've taken measures to be sure I can protect myself from being forcefully detained. I've obtained 3 black belts since then; one in a martial arts for self defense, another for one with knives and the other involving ways to kill with your hands. I also have been practicing with firearms and am now a sharpshooter and have just obtained my assault/automatic weapons permit. If anyone tries to send me to the psych ward, they're in for a nasty surprise :)
@bobbyxxx They were unable to make any diagnosis. Besides, if they're trying to abduct me it's self defense, not murder.
When you are as trained as you are, you are aware of your limits and how to kill people therefore it would be seen as murder not self defence because you would do actions that could kill someone, opposed to just blocking.
Also, if you were involuntarily sent to a hospital because a shrink said so, and a hospital drove to your house to pick you up, they'd inform you of this and request you come with, if you didn't they have a right to take action to take you. Therefore it's still not self defence.
And some people don't think what they do is wrong, should someone who is perhaps psychotic, killing neighbourhood pets, wants to kill humans, but doesn't think it's wrong NOT be sent to a hospital because he says 'no I'm not going'?
In your case, that sucks and I'm sorry. I think it should be hard, and have to be very justified to involuntarily send people to a hospital. But that doesn't make murder justifiable.
@bbch25 I would say I'm not going and if they want a fight, that's exactly what they'll get.
I'll die when I so chose and if anyone tries to get in my way, I'll gladly take them to the grave with me.
@bbch25 And even if they had legal authority to do so as long as they provoke it it's still self defense.
"should someone who is perhaps psychotic, killing neighbourhood pets, wants to kill humans, but doesn't think it's wrong NOT be sent to a hospital because he says 'no I'm not going'? "
They should just go to jail. Like I said we have to clarify the difference in risk to self vs risk to others.
You know, you really need some professional help if you're so hung up over this shit.
It's obvious that you have issues and your mother was very right to put you in a mental hospital.
Correction, I have issues NOW after I was put in the hospital, but the failed to make any diagnosis. Besides, NEWS FLASH: you can only send someone to the hospital because they are a risk to themselves or others; not because they think that something would be justified -_-
Of course it's a bad thing. You can't kill people
Soldiers kill people, police kill people etc...
I mean during the Dachau liberation reprisals the inmates killed 40 of the guards.
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