If scientists discovered that plants in fact COULD feel pain, would vegetarians stop being vegetarians?

[Anonymous]

If it was somehow discovered by scientists that plants do in fact feel pain and published it in a peer reviewed article so it was true, would vegetarians stop being vegetarians?

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Well what do you guys think? would you agree with xzinax2 that an all fruit diet would work well?

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link

Check this out. hmmmmm...

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link


Here you go. some evidence suggesting that plants are reacting to pain, trauma, stress. just that part is enough... but the whole doc gives evidence that maybe plants are actually more aware than we all think... hmmmm

[deeterrocks101]

Look being vegetarian isn't always a lifestyle choice. Many people are vegetarians due to their religion, or due to the fact that an animal with its own mind and own life which is being taken by the millions by the meat industry. Also many people are vegetarians because of the way that the animals are treated by the meat companies when being acquired and prepared for consumption. There are all sorts of reasons. And yes, plants may feel trauma, stress, etc., but there is a complete difference in the anatomy and physiology of plants and animals. A VERY BIG DIFFERENCE. I used to be vegetarian and now am not for two reasons.

1. I was for religious reason (Hinduism), but I started being Agnostic for deeper reasons that I won't bore you with.

2. I believe that Humans are a species placed on this planet like any other animal. And like those other animals, we are trained to follow our natural and baser animal instincts. And since that is true, we are trained to follow the natural food chain. Just because we can think doesn't mean that what we think is rational and logical by the laws of nature, and it definitely doesn't place us as high above other species as we tend to think.

In the end, everything on earth, including us, have a specific place in the cycle and environment of nature. We eat animals and plants because, well, we are higher on the food chain than they are. Regardless of what we think. We are also free thinking beings with free will. Its not for any single person to judge the actions of others and trying to change their minds that our ways are better. Even if plants can feel pain and trauma, etc., they are still at the bottom of the food chain for us, and the same goes for most animals. And that gives us a natural right to do as we please. And we also have minds, which gives us the right to decide what we want to eat and not eat. Meat eaters are meat eaters. Vegetarians are vegetarians. End of story.

[Anonymous]

They would probably do all they could to discredit it, and then hold out until food is made in test tubes, which isn't too far off.

[Opinion Owner]

@update: You can live on it and be fine. If you look at early humans, they had to get a lot more plants than meat. They didn't have the luxury of eating meat for at least one meal a day.

Though I disagree with the notion that humans are meant to be herbivores. A lot of primates are opportunistic omnivores. A couple are actually carnivores.

Do I think we should collectively eat more fruits/vegetables and less meat? Yes, but I see no evidence that we shouldn't eat meat or any animal products

[Opinion Owner]

apart from the way corporations treat those animals and the fact that they pump the meat full of other crap.

Leave it to vegans and the like to be uppity about it though. ugh

[xzinax2]

we're really not uppity about it,lot of carnists think we think we're superior-but you have to understand that we deal with lies and judgement every day,and our ''gap'' doesn't exist-we know animals feel,and are individuals.i don't blame you guys-i know most of you aren't ''evil inferior idiots''-but understand that we have to be ''in your grill'' about this because you're killing those who we consider friends. PLEASE watch this link

[Opinion Owner]

When you say that we aren't even meant to eat meat, what should one get from that? How could we not see that you feel superior because of those choices? A lot of you do seem to be that way.

I understand if you are against the way they are treated and I would fully agree with you there. If they are free range and are humanely killed, I don't see the problem. It's a much better death than what they would have had. To say otherwise is completely ignoring the predator-prey relationship in nature.

[Opinion Owner]

Anyway, I'll watch the video incrementally over the next day or so with an open mind.

[xzinax2]

but the thing is-we aren't meant to eat meat link but that doesn't mean we're superior-most of us ate meat too-there is a reason the meat/egg/dairy industries offer no transparency,it runs on ignorance-ignorance is just a lack of information,no one should be considered ''less'' because of that-but we just want people to look at the information,and you refuse-so of course we tend to be angry. please,watch the video.

[Opinion Owner]

I am tempted not to now. I'll redirect you back to the "ugh" comment. It's because of ignorance, I guess. Not meant to eat meat...ugh...

[xzinax2]

well why do you think we're meant to eat meat? I offered you evidence of why we're herbivores. really,if you're going to eat meat,just educate yourself on what exactly is involved in carnism and meat production-you won't magically turn vegan,you won't lose anything-you'll just gain a view from a different perspective,what you do with it is your choice.

[Opinion Owner]

I just said that a lot of primates are opportunistic omnivores (which is redundant). We are hunter/gatherers. Why would men have better spatial awareness if not for hunting?

I can probably include biased links that support my claims. So why exactly does yours matters?

Like I said, vegans are uppity. It didn't take long before you showed your colors on it. It's not hard to understand why some might not look from your perspective because of the attitudes and some of the crazy statements.

[xzinax2]

stop being defensive-i just asked for evidence-i'm willing to admit that humans are omnivores-if you show me proof that refutes the ones I already agree with,i'm vegan because of ethics-i don't care about what we used to do. it's just that our anatomy shows that we're herbivores. stop being defensive,i know I'm not a likeable person,i don't claim to be-but you're just being defensive,it's actually described in that video.

[Opinion Owner]

Yeah, because your link was irrefutable proof, eh? I have seen other arguments you've had with people and even if most people are against you on a subject, you don't care and keep arguing. You are enlightened apparently. What's the point?

So it's described that you can't act like an ass and spew "facts" and people get defensive? Imagine that!

[xzinax2]

act like an ass? I've never offended anyone,you people keep offending me. I have no reason to lie,my concerns aren't medical in this matter-i merely look at proof objectively and agree with what makes the most sense,and I am willing to agree with anyone who has a better idea,it's just that all of you ignore everything that doesn't justify your actions. open your mind,look at both sides of the story,i can't make anyone do anything-i just suggest information.

[Opinion Owner]

haha objectively? Ok, hun. Have a nice day! :)

[Anonymous]

No, I'm a vegetarian and this is a silly argument in my opinion. Many of us are vegetarians for different reasons first of all. So for my one of the reasons is I don't like the way animals are treated here in the US. They are inhumanely hurt and tortured. So maybe I should just go and get meat that is raised healthily? ehh...why go through all that trouble when I actually hate the taste of meat? On top of that there are many studies showing how meat is unhealthy for you. After I stopped eating meat I had more energy, no acne, and loss a lot of weight (even though then I barely ate meat). However fish and chicken can be healthy. But I hate how they taste too xP

Okay so on to the veggies feeling pain! Well its actually pretty hard to torture veggies the way you torture animals... Itd be pretty economically unnecessary. So they wouldn't be in as much pain as animals. Plus there are ZERO studies to show how veggies are bad for you. Also I love the taste. The cruelty wouldn't even compare. And even if they could feel pain it'd be a whole different story compared to animals.

[sportaholic-1]

Well I don't think they could survive on an all fruit diet because they wouldn't be getting all the vitamins and nutrients that they need, and if plants could feel, I think they'd name those who don't eat plants, meat, or anything derived from them a different name. A vegetarian would still be a vegetarian and a vegan would still be a vegan. Its not always about the animal feeling pain, but a diet choice to eat healthier in some cases. So I think it would vary from person to person because everyone has a different reason for being a vegetarian vegan or any other type of 'eater', I don't eat nuts because I don't like the flavor, some vegetarians might not like the taste of meat. So I believe its all about choice, everyone likes different things and has different opinions on diet

[aMuse]

There are a number of plants that react to being attacked and send out distress signals. Some increase certain hormone levels which leads to the increased production of toxins as a protective measure, some send out distress signals to surrounding plants which triggers them to increase their defensive toxins, and some even send out distress signals that attract predictors of the insects that are currently attacking them. Those chemical signals are analogous to our chemical signals that we call pain.

[Asker]

so do you think vegetarians are hypocrites then since one of the major reasons for not eating meat was because they feel pain, but then plants do as well?

[aMuse]

People make eating discussion for all sorts of crazy reasons. So long as they don't lecture me on it or make false scientific claims, I don't really care. There are plenty of crazy people on all sorts of diets for the wrong reasons. Vegetarians aren't the first, and they won't be the last.

[aMuse]

*decisions

[aMuse]

*predators

[Asker]

would you agree with xzinax2 that an all fruit diet would work well?

[aMuse]

It wouldn't work well for me, but I'm 6'3" with a large frame and a lot of muscle. I weigh around 220 pounds and I'm highly active. I feel a lot better when I eat a higher protein diet. The more carbohydrates I eat, the more sluggish I am. I still eat a lot of veggies, but I do include meat in my diet and see no reason not to. A 6 foot nothing woman around 100 LB could probably get by on vegetables alone, but it's much more challenging for a large male.

[aMuse]

*5 foot nothing

[xzinax2]

there are a lot of vegan athletes out there,even bodybuilders,it's actually really easy to get enough protein-it's just a misconception that vegans don't get enough protein link

[centaine]

Perfectly put, aMuse!

[aMuse]

@update: While that makes for interesting entertainment, you could actually look into plant perception and read a few articles on signal transaction pathways, and mechanisms for response and adaption in the field of plant physiology. You'll find everything from obvious physical movement in Mimosa Pudica as a response to herbivory link to chemical alarm signals such as methyl-jasmonate that plants such as tomatoes release when under attack. There's a lot out

[aMuse]

there to look at that is actually tangible. You don't need to pull out your tin foil hat to see solid examples.

[aMuse]

As far the fruit idea, cells are cells are cells. Plants do offer up fruits as a mechanism to spread their seeds, but none the less the cells are alive and you do kill them by eating them. I don't see it anything wrong with killing to survive though. We're not prototrophic bacteria. We're complex eukaryotic beings that have evolved to prey on other organisms.

[DandelionGirl]

FYI plants DO feel PAIN and it can be heard from miles, unfortunately humans can't hear it. But vegetarians wouldn't stop being vegetarians, then if theyd stop what would they eat? Theyre vegos for a reason, theyll stop eating plants and meat. what will they have left? I don't know much about vegetarians and could care less about them and what they eat but its a known fact with or without these dumbass scientists that PLANTS DO FEEL PAIN. You people can disagree with me, I don't care but its the truth.

[xzinax2]

link

[DandelionGirl]

whats your point? Wikipedia is bullsh*t and I never use it because its all lies. Link anything you want just to prove it. You can be ignorant all you want and disagree with me, but plants do feel pain regardless of what people say.

[xzinax2]

so...centuries of research from scientists=bullsh*t,but if you say something is right it is?

[DandelionGirl]

No that's my opinion. Peace.

[Asker]

do you think vegetarians are hypocrites then since one of the major reasons for not eating meat was because they feel pain, but then plants do as well?

[DandelionGirl]

uh.. yes?

[BKshadow-ki]

Don't look it as people being hypocrites, look at is people being ignorant. In a way it could seem depressing. No matter what happens, we have to eat live things whether it comes from a plant or an animal. That's how the circle of life works...we have to eat to survive.

[DandelionGirl]

AT UPDATE: now you know ;-)

[immaterial]

There is as far as I'm aware, no actual scientific evidence that plants can feel pain. That's something of a myth I believe.

But even assuming that plants could in fact feel pain, the reality would seem to be that far fewer plants die due to a vegetarian diet than die due to the eating of meat. This can fairly easily be reasoned out based upon the second law of thermodynamics. Most of the energy contained is plants is wasted when eaten by livestock (radiated away as heat or not fully utilized and expelled as waste, or used in the production of inedible parts of the animal such as bone), thus it takes far more plant matter to produce a particular amount of meat then would be required if one were to eat the plants directly (the exact amount will vary based on the type of animal and plant). So a vegetarian diet would still contribute to far less suffering than eating meat.

[Asker]

would you agree with xzinax2 that an all fruit diet would work well?

[immaterial]

I don't think I've personally done any in depth research on the subject of fruitarianism, however it would indeed seem possible, and there are certain religions I believe (such as Jainism) whose adherents often seem to endeavor to avoid harming plants as well as animals. There are actually seemingly quite a few types of food (beans, nuts, fruit) which can be harvested without killing and/or harming the plant which produces them.

[wallflowervulpine]

I'm vegetarian, and to be honest if they could I'd probably starve. I like animals waaaayyy to much to ever go back to eating them. I respect all life and don't think I should be an oppressor, but my food variety is already quite limited, and in addition if I had to take them off of my diet, I wouldn't eat anything then? Having a fruit diet is not even an option, if we are going to be all analytical. If a squash plant felt pain, what says a strawberry plant wouldn't? It's all in the same biological premise.

[Luv2BRealExotic13]

Studies have shown that plants feel pain. However they can't really defend themselves except by giving off chemical smells. Perfect example I was watching the science channel like I do every other wensday and they were studying plants and there was a plant that the horticulturalist unleashed a caterpillar on, and the plant gave off a chemical that attracted a wasp to come kill it. Plants are even more likely to grow faster with care and attention like talking to them.

So if a true life story creates itself along the plot of what the happening was about, well we're all in trouble lol. And until that happens I'm going to continue being a vegetarian, we have to eat something other than dead flesh. I don't know about you but I've never heard of an edible plant ever being cancerous, causing bone degradation, and clogging the system. That being said I'd rather drink hemp milk than cow puss on more than any occasion.

[BKshadow-ki]

The thing is, humans are more than capable to living a healthy life without meat. There's a positive correlation between vegetarians and a longer lasting healthier energetic life. Set aside this correlation, both plants and animals are "alive" in the sense that they have cells working round to clock to keep its organism alive. So regardless of what side your on, what ever you are eating it was once alive. So it makes no sense to debate about whether you are an omnivore, carnivore, or herbivore. But to answer the question as I said in the beginning of the post, due to the positive correlation, why should a vegetarian stop being vegetarian.

[Anonymous]

its so ridiculous to try to make sure our food sources feel as comfortable as possible, wtf, we are going to eat them and break them down in our bodies.

speaking in terms of evolution and general humanity, we need food to survive, whether is feels pain or not and I think its a bit ridiculous that vegetarians are so damn self righteous about not eating meat because it kills animals. but I do 100% completely agree with people not eating meat that was slaughtered inhumanely, but not eating meat because the meat has a face is just crazy.

if we were dying with no food, I'm sure the vegetarians would turn to eat people just as fast as meat-eaters.

its all about survival in the long run

[dipta]

Actually my vegetarian friend said exactly the same thing. Think, if needed be, he would eat some human faster than I would!

[Anonymous]

plants do not feel pain because they don't not have a nervous system to sense feelings connected to a brain. the reason they react to when their branches or leaves getting cut off is because if a tree does not have enough leaves for photosynthesis they do not produce enough energy to support themselves.

I think your views on plants can feel pain is scientifically impossible and your opinion is your own but they just last the anatomy to produce feeling. specially the lack of nerves tissue. One plat that comes to mind that could seem like it has nerves and can sense things is a venus fly trap but it actually has trigger hairs that when brushed against it cause the plant to close but that is still not like a human feelings a fly on your arm and swatting at it.

[Asker]

watch that documentary in my last update.

[Anonymous]

I think it's funny how vagetarians say that they don't eat animal meat since it's killing a living thing. Plants are also living things. Just because they don't talk or move does not mean that they're not alive like all of us. And they do in fact communicate. When people cut grass, you could smell a certain type of smell. That's how those plants communicate and warn other plants. So I think they do feel pain because they send a warning smell when we cut all of them. And I think it's impossible for them. If they feel that killing animals for food is animal cruelty, its hard for them to eat anything else then vegetables.

[xzinax2]

link animals are sentient,plants are not. there is no reason for grass to warn grass-what's it gonna do? run? and plants regenerate.

[DandelionGirl]

dont listen to her, I believe everything you said and agree with you all the way. finally someone who has common sense.

[xzinax2]

*sigh* great,choose opinion over fact,good for you.

[DandelionGirl]

facts are nothing and proves nothing.

[xzinax2]

lol you a**hole. now I feel like an idiot.

[MyThoughts]

That nasty, raunchy, spoiled milk, "something just died in here" smell you smell after animals are being slaughtered is them warning other animals on the conveyor belt. We don't fully know ho plants communicate therefor I remain neutral

[wallflowervulpine]

Vegetarians*. The reasons for being on a vegetarian diet are personal, and not everyone who decides to be it, have the same beliefs or reasons for it. There are many factors that contribute to someones decision on that lifestyle. So before you go anymore on about your notion of logic that's immensely flawed. Take some time to be considerate into your thoughts and concepts because you are coming off as an ignorant bigot with your foot stuck in your mouth.

[Opinion Owner]

will all of you stop fighting and arguing about a stupid thing?

[wallflowervulpine]

Clearly you should know that if you are going to say baseless stereotypical accusations you should be more aware that people who disagree can clearly support their justifications with viable means

[Opinion Owner]

I don't give a crap. Just stop commenting so I won't get useless notifications

[dipta]

That's actually one of the reasons I never turned vegetarian... First I wasn't raised like one, my family eat a lot of meat and I actually like the flavor. Also, I could imagine plants as living beings as well, and thought if I went down that road I wouldn't even drink water (who says water has no spirit?).

It may sound silly, but I believe you aren't supposed to think about some things. Life would cease to exist.

[Anonymous]

not all vegetarians think that way, some don't eat animal products for health reasons, there is a lot of facts that show humans are not meant to eat animal products, looking at out digestive systems, our teeth and other factors.. Animal products create acidity in the body which cause many diseases in the body.

[Asker]

i know not all vegetarians don't think that way, but many do. so if their only argument was that 'animals feel pain' and then it was discovered that plants feel pain too, would they just stop being vegetarian then?

[snowangle]

I don't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure Mythbusters proved that plants CAN feel pain and even fear.

But anyways to answer your questions, it'd be hard to make an all fruit diet work. That's a lot of carbohydrates and not much protein.

[xzinax2]

actually,they busted that myth,the plants didn't show any sign of pain.

[Asker]

link

Yeah this doesn't look busted to me at all, lol

[xzinax2]

there were several experiments

[xzinax2]

link

[snowangle]

It seems that plants can feel pain, but not empathy.

[Asker]

yeah that was something else I picked up too

[Anonymous]

No I think that vegetarians and vegans would find a way to blame omnivorous people and say that not only are we supporting animal killers but we are plant and animal killers too. Trust me they will find a way to turn their sh*t back on meat and vegetable eaters.

[Anonymous]

Chemical and electrical responses =/= higher conscious feeling and thinking. It's still different than a mammal.

And if they do? I'd still eat them because of the above reason, and because there is no way to relate to it, unlike a mammal.

And be vegetarian isn't just about "not hurting animals" that's actually not the main reason for me.

[Asker]

but it is for many others... like xzinax2 above.

[xzinax2]

how does hurting some beings=let's hurt more! and that's what fruitarianism in Buddhism is based on-not hurting any beings. but,there is no chance for plants to feel pain because they have no central nervous system and they wouldn't benefit from one-cause they can't move. standing still and feeling pain isn't the point of a nervous system.

[Asker]

because it would pretty much destroy the argument a lot of vegetarians have that plants can't feel pain, but they gotta eat something right? so why not just put meat back on the table since everything we eat now, feels pain?

And by the way the girl below you says they can feel pain

[xzinax2]

because there was a theory on it-but they tested plants-they can't feel pain,they have no central nervous system

[Asker]

but hypothetically now.

[xzinax2]

we would eat fruit-fruit doesn't harm the plant,it just falls off and has a vibrant color so animals are attracted to it,so we can spread the seeds in fertilizer (poop)

[Asker]

but can you get all the nutrients you need just from fruit?

[xzinax2]

yes.

[Asker]

ok give a few

Protein:

Good Fats:

Carbs:

[xzinax2]

legumes

nuts

fleshy fruits

[Asker]

also found this: link

"Fruit contains a lot of natural sugar, which needs to be controlled by insulin in the body, Moore says. It's the pancreas' job to release that insulin; Kutcher's pancreas may have been overworked if his body was receiving an overload of sugar."

[xzinax2]

not all fruits are high in sugar-tomatoes and cucumbers are also fruits-lots of things we think are vegetables are actually fruit.

[Asker]

so that article is wrong?

[xzinax2]

well some people might have issues with a lot of sugar-but most don't,there are a lot of fruitarians in the world,buddhists have been eating that way for a long time,but if you do have issues-there are ways to adapt-legumes,nuts,non-sugary fruits in general

[aMuse]

I've done the math on how much food I'd personally have to eat and it's high volume. You might not realize how much someone like me needs to eat. You can get enough, but you have to stuff yourself to the rafters and eat all day long. When you eat a lot of vegetable to get that protein, it comes with tons of carbs which raise your blood sugar, which in turn raises your insulin levels which can make you lethargic.

[aMuse]

Just because it's physically possible if you devote a lot of your day to considering your diet rather then everything else we need to do in a given day, doesn't mean it's practical or in anyway rational.

[xzinax2]

there are ways to make it more practical-protein shakes. of course the natural way would be preferable-but there are options for everyone.

[aMuse]

A can of tuna tastes a hell of a lot better then a gritty dirt shake, which by the way comes with a heap of processed carbs.

[xzinax2]

vegan protein powders like pea and hemp are rarely highly processed,and they're really just there for supplementation,there are a lot of vegan recipes out there-everything you eat,can be replicated with plants-flavors come from seasoning anyways.

[aMuse]

You can try to argue your point until your blue in the face, it doesn't change the volume of food that needs to be consumed by a large male. Just because I'm twice the size of someone like you, doesn't mean I have a stomach twice the size of you or an appetite to mange that volume of food. It doesn't mean I have twice the time as you to eat. It doesn't mean I want to eat 6 meals a day and take 4 sh*ts. It doesn't mean I want to spend time every day planning all my meals. All that aside, cooking

[aMuse]

and eating good food is a pleasurable experience. It releases dopamine which makes you happy. Eating too many carbs which most vegetarians do can make you sluggish and depressed. Even if you manage to push that amount of food through your system in a given day, it doesn't mean you will enjoy the process. For me it leads to feeling unhealthy, tired, having lack of motivation, and so on. To me that is being unhealthy. If it works for you, then so be it. I want to feel healthy both physically and

[aMuse]

mentally. I how I eat works and I love meat. I have no guilt about it.

[xzinax2]

we're arguing? lol I'm just saying-you don't have to do eat a lot,like I said,there are protein powders,and vegan food is delicious,don't knock it till you try it. carbs from fruit give you energy,carbs from pasta and breads make you sluggish. athletes and athletic dogs eat bananas before competitions because they give you energy.

[aMuse]

Go eat 10 bananas and see how you feel... Everything in moderation. What you seem to miss is that every meal needs to be scaled up, thus every meal has tons of carbs in in at any one sitting and lots of volume. I don't know why that's hard for you to comprehend. I eat plenty of high protein vegitation like lentils, humus, quinoa, almonds, etc. right along side my meat.

[xzinax2]

actually 10 banana smoothies are very popular among the vegan community,they don't make you sluggish at all,quite the opposite. meat just destroys your health-and I know you probably don't care,but a being that is imprisoned and tortured from birth has to die for your taste buds.

[aMuse]

oh really, how does meat destroy your health? What exactly is your argument on that. It would be interesting to hear on a biochemical level, not some homeopathy bullsh*t.

[Asker]

yeah that sounds like some leftist hippe mumbo jumbo to me too

[xzinax2]

dang it. I posted links but it was too long :( just look up the relation between meat and heart disease and cancer,and why poultry is unhealthy,and mercury in fish. and just watch this,it's purely psychological link

[aMuse]

I could show you the amino acid sequence of RuBisCO which accounts for about 50% of soluble leaf protein in C3 plants and 30% of soluble leaf protein in C4 plants and then compare it against actin and myosin sequences and you'd find all those amino acids your body needs in both. I could then explain how proteases and peptidases digest those proteins from either source into short peptide chains of 4 or less amino acids before they are utilized by your body. Your body sees them the same way...

[aMuse]

Neither is bad for you. What tends to be bad for you are synthetic hormones and antibiotics pumped into livestock and pesticides and herbicides sprayed on plants. Either way you eat, you tend to catch some of the detriments of modern agriculture.

[aMuse]

The foods themselves are good for you in moderation though. Someone could easily point out how too many carbs leads to diabetes, but I've been pointing at balance the entire time, not one vs the other so I won't...

[xzinax2]

if you think it's the same-why kill someone? and it's not really the same-we have the body of an herbivore-do you think going against nature is smart? there is a reason western diets shorten your lifespan,while Asian cultures are healthier. and you'll probably have to go vegetarian by 2050,because there will be no way to sustain the industry-why not start now and avoid killing others?

[aMuse]

1) You take life by eating plants, just as I take life by eating meat or plants. 2) Humans are omnivore not herbivores. There's millions of years of evolution behind us becoming omnivore. The commensal bacteria in our alimentary tract are well adapted to the digestion of meat and the enzymes coded for in our DNA cleave meat protein the same way as plant proteins. What we lack, that herbivores posses is the ability to hydrolyze the beta glycosidic linkages in cellulose.

[aMuse]

Ruminates like cows and sheep which are actually herbivores unlike humans possess commensal bacteria that can digest cellulose.

[aMuse]

The problem with vegetarian diets is that they are high carb. An appropriate distribution of calories would be approximately 50% carbohydrates, 30% protein, and 20% fat. When you are on a vegetarian diet even with the highest protein foods you're up around 76-80% carbohydrates. That messes up your biochemistry just as too much meat messes up your biochemistry. High levels of carbohydrates raises insulin levels as I've already mentioned and causes feedback inhibition of that specific hormone and

[aMuse]

and other chemical signals leading to disease. The same is true for someone who tries to act like a carnivore and eat way too much protein. Their testosterone levels will drop which again will lead to disease. Humans are omnivore and our biochemistry depends on a balanced diet. The more you stray from it in either direction, the more problems you have.

[xzinax2]

1.you don't take life-fruit isn't a plant,and vegetables can regenerate,and they don't have a nervous system. 2.if we could properly digest meat,we'd eat it raw,and studies have shown that early hominoids were fruitarians based on their teeth,and we have long intestines,our stomach acidity,claws,teeth,the fact that we move our jaw in all directions and our alkaline saliva are the same as herbivores. as for calorie distribution-there are different theories on what works best,and a lot of them...

[xzinax2]

give good results,but they can all be followed on a vegan diet. as for how it affects your body link

[aMuse]

Every cell is a living unit. Go learn basic biology please.

[aMuse]

There are approximately 3 million cells in an apple for example and you kill all of them. You're a mass murderer whether you like it or not.

[xzinax2]

there is a difference between cells and sentient beings-would you consider antibacterial spray murder? no,because there is no proof that they're sentient

[aMuse]

By the definition to kill with premeditation, yes. The idea is you want to survive, so you prey on another life form to acquire resources to survive. If you take the life of a plant, animal, or even a single celled bacteria you are killing that life for your own good. There's nothing wrong with that either. We all have to eat.

[xzinax2]

animals (from us to fish) have nervous systems-we feel pain,fear,we create emotional bonds and we communicate (fish too),plants don't have a nervous system-they have no benefit from pain because they don't move-and you don't have to ''kill'' a plant,fruit is just an envelope to attract animals to eat it and spread the seed,and vegetables regrow from stumps-but even so-killing a plant makes no difference to it-it can't feel.

[aMuse]

All of that crap you mentioned are a result of the release of specific hormones that react with a surface receptor on another cell. As I've explained below, a lot of plants also release chemical signals and specific hormones when they are in distress/under attack. While the chemical signals in plants are slightly different, they operate on the same principle. You actions are not justified by your own ignorance of biology. If you think it is amoral to kill a fish based on that principle, then

[aMuse]

you feel the same way about killing plants. What you are doing is cherry picking what you want to kill based on an emotional premise. Preserving your own kin (e.g. other humans) is normal, and more specifically your immediate family, but bridging that protection instinct to other species has no logic backing.

[aMuse]

except for when you are preserving those species as live stock so that you can prey upon them for resources, or utilize them in some fashion for your own survival.

[xzinax2]

again,it's not killing the plant,and even if it was-plants have been tested-and they showed no pain. you're the one being emotional-you're defending your tradition with irrational claims-that's basically religion. fish feel pain,communicate and show fear-none of that can be said for plants. plants are not animals.

[aMuse]

1) You are killign cells. 2) Plants do feel pain, they just use different chemical signals then you or I. 3) Plants do communicate, though typically it is with insects who carry out pollination for them. They cange the colors of their flowers and release chemical sents into the air to communicate to their pollinators that they are fertile and ready to bread. Some also communicate distress signals to other plants of the same species around them to warn of herbivore. Others send out chemical

[aMuse]

distress signals to other species such as parasitic wasps or mice to defend them against the plants predators. So again, your ignorance does not justify your actions.

[aMuse]

*killing, *change

[aMuse]

Here's an example that even you should be able to understand link

[aMuse]

One other thing, technically a meat eater could remove a limb or two and the animal would still be alive. Would your warped views accept that, being that the animal doesn't die even though it is severely maimed like you do to plants?

[xzinax2]

listen-if you believe that chemical signals in beings that can't move is the same as the nervous system of animals-okay,that's fine,if it's ever proven that they feel pain just like us-i'll eat only fruit. but,why would you kill those who we know NOW feel pain? why would you filter nutrients through someone else and then kill them? why would you deny 3rd world countries food? why would you support global warming?most animals can't grow back a leg,and they would feel pain,and could bleed to death

[aMuse]

We do know plants feel pain. It has been proven. Different organisms use different chemical signals to convey messages. All our nervous system is doing is conveying action potential through a chemical gradient to our brain to signal us that something is wrong. Our cells also release localized hormones to communicate with other cells. For example the macrophages in our tissues release cytokines in the local area where there is a problem so that our immune system can react to the problem and try

[aMuse]

to fix it. Plant cells send chemical distress signals just the same and for the same reasons, so that the problem can be fixed.

As to this statement "why would you filter nutrients through someone else and then kill them?" you do the same thing. I don't see you eating rocks to get all your nutrients. You eat other living organisms that can synthesize the supplies you need just as I do.

[xzinax2]

there is a difference between having signals and processing them,plants don't have nociception-they can't process stimuli.

[aMuse]

The nervous system is just a chain of cells for transmitting chemical signals over long distances quickly. Technically the predator is not the one causing the pain anyway, it is the animal that causes itself pain. When tissue is damaged the immune system triggers dilators to flood an area with flood in order to mobilize macrophages, fibroblasts, etc to the area of damage. That pressure induced by the organisms own chemical signals compresses nerve endings which sends a pain signal.

[aMuse]

That mechanism is no different then what plants do. The basis for your argument seems to be well they don't use the same cell as me to transmit distress signals so it's OK if they suffer. It's a ridiculous stance.

[aMuse]

Plant do respond to negative stimuli though. Go do some reading.

[xzinax2]

that's kind of the ''frog legs'' theory again-just because SOMETHING happens,doesn't mean it's pain -they can't process pain. it's been tested.

[aMuse]

So you're arguing it's fine to kill invertebrates because they don't have a central nervous system huh? You must dine on lobsters, clams, oysters, crabs, snails, etc right? They after all can't respond to negative stimuli by your hypothesis...

[aMuse]

You are right that plants have been tested for response to negative stimuli, you're just wrong when it comes to the findings of those tests.

[xzinax2]

they have nociception and respond to pain,they will writhe when hurt.

[xzinax2]

'' After isolating the plant the polygraph showed a response slightly less than one third of the time. Later experiments with an EEG failed to detect anything. ''

[aMuse]

I could point you to tons of experiments in many different species that respond to negative stimuli, but you're just incapable of comprehending scientifically tested data. You'd rather rely on pseudoscience and faith. As I said I could care less what you eat, just stop trying to justify it, especially with science, because you're wrong. Your ideas are full of holes.

[xzinax2]

some research has shown otherwise-but that was because of outside influence tempering with the data. with that removed-there was no sign of pain.

[Asker]

yeah I am not convinced. amuse seems way more collected with his data and evidence, so I'm on his side

[xzinax2]

what evidence? his theory is centuries old,and it was proven wrong.

[Asker]

he pretty much refuted everything you said lol. you are just too dense to admit it

[xzinax2]

it.was.busted. link

[Asker]

ok then explain why the plant reacted to the polygraph machine then

[xzinax2]

did you even read that? CAN you even read?

[Asker]

lol I did read. there's nothing in there about why they reacted. just that they didn't react to eggs being catapulted using an eeg

[xzinax2]

gaaaah it would have reacted if the theory was true

[Asker]

but that doesn't explain why they reacted to the polygraph

[xzinax2]

research the damn theory

[Asker]

im watching a video saying that plants have many behaviors like animals. ill see if anything really revealing happens.

[xzinax2]

if it is ever actually proven (theory is one thing,proof is another)-i'll go fruitarian and eat eat cloned food-how about you stop killing animals considering we already have proof the feel pain and fear?

[Asker]

nope sorry. I like meat.

[xzinax2]

good,get cancer and murder others,destroy the planet and deny African children food-good for you. I'm out. peace.

[Asker]

enjoy murdering your precious plants too

[Confucius16]

I don't think it's possible for plants to feel pain. They don't have a brain and organs and such.

And if scientists proved that plants could feel pain, we vegetarians would not give all forms of vegetarians overnight. Maybe an all fruit diet though.

[confugirl]

I guess they'd just continue eating it. Or they'd have to cut all non-fruits out of their diet, which includes potatoes and carrots. Don't know how they'd manage without those though.

[AnnabelLee]

Yeah, they would then eat stones and learn how to make photosynthesis... What the hell?

[Asker]

or go to an all fruit diet like xzinax2 says

[AnnabelLee]

Impossible. Too much sugar, too little fibers, minerals and proteins.

[Asker]

she says you can get protein easily from eating legumes

[AnnabelLee]

...

Legumes =/= fruits.

At least as far as I know...

[Anonymous]

Uhh but plants CAN feel pain.

Not in the same way or extent that humans do but still.

[Asker]

oh. but its still OK to eat plants then?

[xzinax2]

no,no they can't. that was a theory-proven to be wrong.

[Opinion Owner]

Well we all have to eat SOMETHING.

I'm not a vegetarian so I don't really know how to answer fully.

Either way, killing living things, plants or animals, is inevitable if we want to survive... some people are going to choose what they feel is less harmful to those living things, and that's fine, people should be free to choose to eat whatever they want to.

[Asker]

sure they have to eat something, but choosing not to eat meat on the basis that animals feel pain while plants don't would be thrown out the window.

[RosaliaVanderbilt]

No (I'm a vegetarian). And broccoli has a nervous system, so it's arguable as is.