Palastine, very simply put it was their land, they where essentially evicted from by a foreign power and then the rest of the world sided with the jewish people for reasons I still can't figure out then when you look at the fact that for every israely killed fifteen palastinians die. When ever they have come to a peace term israel has instigated greater tention like claiming land that they had previously agreed belonged to palastine and then when palastine aggressively confronts them (as any nation would) they play the victim card, the didn't strike first (despite doing everything in their power to instigate a confrontation) ergo they are the innocent victim. Its a system that works really well since palastinians lose 15X the people in any conflict that weakens them while strengthening israel, its a win win situation and with the rest of the world siding with Israel they can and do get away with it. As for hamas, well when your people are slaughtered regularly and no one gives a damn, you'll agree to just about anything if you think it will save you, even if its putting some one in power that is of questionable character, just look at germany/italy. If we look at what israel has done it would have violated multiple international laws. The most recent spat was due to an angry palastinian blowing up a taxi, I believe no one was hurt. The Israely response to such an action? They spent the next week bombing palastinian cities, people who had no idea why they where being bombed why their families where being killed, thousands of dead, because of an unmanned taxi being blown up, most likely due to a angry palastinian. Imagine that, an entire people held accountable for the actions of a single individual. Then of course you have the incident where a bunch of palastinian americans and palastinians across Europe got on a yacht, whent into international waters and peacefully protested as close to the border as they could be, the actions of israel. Israels response was to send black ops soldiers onto the ship and attack them. They claimed it was in selfdefense, you know going out into international waters, boarding a vessel under the cover of night with out permision (technicly piracy) then assualted the people on board who where so hostile that the only weapons on board where the life boat oars that they used to defend themselves, and israel claimed that they assualted these people in self defense, people who where American no less, their ally.
And what was done about it? Not a thing. If palastine did this what would have happened? We will never know but I am willing to bet that they would have been attacked for assualting American citizens in international waters during a peaceful protest, America would most likely have done some serious damage to Palastine. Its ridicioulus.
Agreed. Thank you for this insightful answer.
My pleasure!
Thanks for the MHO!
Well, ultimately I believe that the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian lands was a terrible mistake but as a historian, I also try to keep a distanced look at these kind of hot potatoes of global politics. It is true that the Israelis stole the Palestinian lands but this was 70 years ago. Not much can be done about this now. Telling the former Israeli immigrants to just go back into the diaspora like you suggested further down is not a decent solution. Especially since many of the Israelis who live there are not even the original immigrants but their children and grandchildren. While they might be sitting on stolen land, this land has - ironically - also become their land now.
Also, while Israel as a nation is certainly more aggressive, we can't just excuse the Palestinians for everything either. Back when I was a child and I had a fight with one of my siblings and we ended up blaming each other in front of our parents, my mom would always say "for a fight it always needs two people". I think this is both true for children fighting and nations fighting against each other. There's never just black and white, good and evil, right and wrong. It's always a rather complicated issue.
Personally, I think by far the best solution would be to found one big country out of Israel and Palestine. A democratic republic that has a progressive constitution, strong civil rights and makes sure to include all minorities. Unfortunately, this kind of solution is completely impossible at this moment, mostly due to the intense religious fanatism on both sides of the border. So the second-best solution in my opinion would be a two-nation-solution, where both get a fair share of the land available and agree to leave each other alone. Even this seems very difficult at the moment, both due to all the religious fundamentalists on both sides and the extremely right-wing, nationalist government of Benjamin Netanyahu who would rather die of a rocket impact than make a compromise.
Very nice answer. Also I agree it would be almost ideal to have that second solution that you have suggested.
They have tried your second solution. The problem is israel did not adhere to it. I don't remember the details but their was an agreement of borders then Israel came in and took over large sections of the region and claimed it was theirs right after agreeing it was not at which point hostilities commenced.(I was in grade school when this happened so admittedly I do not have all the details).
@hellionthesage Yeah I know about this. In fact, when you look at a map that shows the development of the Israeli-controlled lands (what we consider as the area of Israel as a country), it becomes clear that the Israel we know today has very little to do with Israel as it was founded in 1948. The Israeli state-area has not only increased, it has literally quadrupled. To put this into a relation, that is as though Germany would increase to about 1,4 million square kilometers. It would then occupy all of France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Austria and large parts of Poland (more or less by force, that is). Now, when Germany actually did increase to that size, the world community was very worried and rightly so. However, when Israel quadruples in size, not many seem to object. Of course Hitler was more dangerous but the Israeli government under Netanyahu is also incredibly nationalistic, stuck-up and loves the military.
Of course, in fact nationalism is what fueled germany during world war II. Its a dangerous ideology in my opinion. The issue I think is that the world at large does not acknowledge the issue, that is they are increasing their territory by brute force to the detriment of the indiginous population and yet no one, especially america seems to care. That I think is even more dangerous a situation then the expansion itself. Furthermore, I have learned from personal experience, if you question Israel then you are labeled a antisemetic (inaccuratley as politics and religion are two different things) this essentially shuts down any argument or criticism (journalist have actually lost their jobs because of this). What happens when a society has no means to keep its people in check? I imagine it would be similar to a child who was never reprimanded for their behavior, only much much bloodier. That is the real issue I think.
@hellionthesage Yes, I very much agree with you. Also about the part that open criticism (even if it's constructive) often leads to people yelling "you're an antisemite!". I usually try to counteract this by saying "I'm not antisemitic in the least but I am very much an anti-zionist". The problem is that not many people understand what this means and even fewer people know that there are even orthodox jews who are anti-zionists (and vice verse, non-jews who are zionists).
As for what you said before that: I think there are two aspects to the issue of nationalism. On the one hand, it gets rarely acknowledged as dangerous ideology as you correctly said. Especially many conservatives tend to confuse it with patriotism. The US is a great example for this, though certainly not the only example. Where does patriotism end and where does nationalism start? It's a dangerous topic. I was taught in school that if somebody loves his country, he's a patriot. If he thinks he country is BETTER than
all other countries, he's a nationalist. However, if we go with this definition, tons of Americans would be blatant and proud nationalists. I've lived in the US for some time and I heard tons of people say "America is the best country in the world!" (thereby implicitly downgrading all other countries). I don't believe these people were nationalists and I don't think it was clear to them what they were actually saying but this shows quite well how it's also hard to criticize nationalism because too many people confuse it with patriotism and then get all sulky and offended.
The second issue is that in my opinion, American politics does recognize Israel's nationalism in a way but they just don't care about it. It's taken as a "small evil" that can be put aside for the benefit of much more important stuff like having a geopolitical ally and beachhead in the middle east. Kinda like the whole western world ignores the human rights' violations in Saudi Arabia because we want to have their oil
For your first point I would argue that they are stating that as prefference rather then ideology but it is a valid point. Its a gray area where does one stop being a patriot and start being a nationalist, its a good question. I would say the moment it starts to harm others or the country itself, much like how pride becomes arrogance/ego. Though I am reminded of an incident in russia, a world war II soldier was imprisoned for, I want to say, 30 years. He was tortured and interrogated, eventually he was let out. When asked about everything he said he would still have fought in the war because he had never fought for stalin or communism, he had fought for russia. So this would suggest patriotism does not necessarily require full support of the country and its actions, I think nationalism is more likely to do so. I would concurr with your second point as well, people ignore that which does not directly affect them or if its beneficial for them to ignore it.
Both are somehow wrong because the conflict between the countries wouldn't have lasted that long. I take Palestine's side because it's unbelievable how violent Israel is to Palestine, also I think it's wrong how the Israelis stole the Palestinian land.
neither. I think is real should let then have their own country but I'm not for either side. I'm not there, I don't truly know what's going on.
*israel
It is wise for you to not take a position and admitting you don't know what's going on.
I don't know first hand is what I mean. I only know what the media shows.
Of course Palestine! I'm against land stealing!
Opinion
24Opinion
Sure. Hitler was mean to Jews, but Israel has been assholes to everyone from day 1 of it's existence. Never quite big enough of an asshole to make everyone take back their holocaust guilt, but big enough assholes nonetheless.
Look at what happened on the other side of the war. The atrocities that the Japanese committed across Asia was at least as bad, (often many times worse) than the holocaust. Do you see any of them milking this for sympathy today? That's right, we just put our head down, got our shit together and moved on. It's about time Israel did the same.
Well said.
"How many more resolutions have to be violated,
How many more children have to be annihilated
Israel is a terror state, there terrorists that terrorize,
I testify, my television televised them telling lies,
This is not a war, it is systematic genocide" - Lowkey
Beware of the Zionist..
Palistine! ❤
Fuck Israel, they're murderers occupying stolen land.
Just to think my Government is supporting Israel. So, they're supporting genocide.
#FuckTheWest
Indeed, Britain started this whole mess to be fair haha. :p
Hahha I know that ;)
Mixed.
In principle I support the plight of the Palestinians since I am Orthodox Christian and many of the Palestinians including those who were originally displaced were/are Christian like myself.
However, pragmatically, I feel like I have to support Israel as the "lesser evil" because I believe that if Palestine were to ever actually win, it would most likely devolve into another oppressive Islamist theocracy what with the Arab Spring influencing their thinking, in which case Palestinian Christians and Jews would hardly have it any better than they do now.
At least Israel gives radical Palestinians a target they hate even more--the Zionists--and thus takes the heat off of Palestinian minorities like Christians and Jews. Get rid of Israel and my bet is that immediately they will switch their focus to these groups.
Ultimatively both are wrong, but the wrongdoings of Palestine there are in no way comparable to those Israel in intensity, destructiveness and as they are responsive.
Interesting. How do you think Palestine is wrong? Hamas taking over in 2007 wasn't the best thing for them but I mean, the conflict has been going on for longer than that.
@Asker
If a conflict escalates to this extent there are always wrongdings. War doesn't really determine who is right, but just who is left.
I didn't have anything specific in mind though. In the end Palestines were there for decades before the european and russian jews came violently in the land and started that whole conflict based on their arrogance of it being gods land and they are the chosen people instead of trying to find a peaceful solution.
Is it really a war though? It is rather an occupation.
But thank you for your answer.
An occupation doesn't exclude it being a war. They are not exclusive to each other and it all started with a war - or rather a massacre by jewish settlers. You should read up on what the arabs call the "Nakba" which was the catalyst of escalation.
Alright I'll check that out thanks!
Both are equally wrong. The very fact that there has been no peace solution for the last 70 plus years, and the terrible wars between the two means it should have been solved already. Yet there has been no solution, and I still prefer the thought if both can try to exist together instead of grabbing at each other's throat all the time.
Yes but israel has violated the ceasefire agreements again and again and have intentionally provoced palastine. If you look at the death tolls for every one Israely you have 15 palastinians dead. Israel has violated mutliple UN rules etc.
I just rather see a peace agreement. :D. Enough fighting already over there. ;).
Free Palestine, all day... everyday ❤️
I hope than one day justice will be brought for your people and that those occupiers will leave and go back to where they came, Falesteen <3
@elissadido inshallah. Thanks for your kind words :)
By my dislike of israel, I have to say palestine,
We Americans should have hung them out to dry after they purposely attacked the U. S. S Liberty in international waters.
American Servicemen Died, Good men.
There is really not a side. There should be one goal: peaceful co-existence
War doesn't care about laws.
I don't like Jews, but in a war between people who use children as human shields and blow themselves up vs people who don't... easy choice.
You forgot to add an option "Neither / Indifferent".
I'm on the side of nuclear weaponry turning the Middle East into a sea of glass. All of the cultures there are filth, and the sooner they're exterminated, the better.
Neither are without mistakes, but Palestine is still the right side.
Israel. The media only shows you what happens when people retaliate against drone buyers and rock throwers.
I say neither. Israel has done terrible things but the Palestinians aren't angels either.
My answer is obvious.
Numbers 24:9
The nation is like a mighty lion;
When it is sleeping, no one dares wake it.
Whoever blesses Israel will be blessed,
And whoever curses Israel will be cursed.”
Quoting the Bible, I see. You do realize ancient times Israel isn't the same as today's modern nation, though?
Israel is God's country plainly stated in the Bible and it always will remain that way.
Not everyone is Christian. Religion isn't gonna solve this it's a political issue.
Who said that? the jewish people ie Israel. Furthermore those are two different Israels and is not applicable to the argument even if the bible was valid evidence (which it is not) now to claim something as being Israel and it being Israel are also two different things how do you distinguish between the two? If enough people say it america could be Israel so whats the difference? Their is a reason why their are theologians, their is a reason the bible has been debated for so long, it was never meant to be taken literally or at face value but to be analyzed and thought over, so this is also a poor argument by that standard as well.
I couldn't care less so long as our ties to Israel don't drag us into any conflict between them.
israel is fucked up i hope hitler comes back to life
I voted for one of them 🙂
Random choice?
Why don't you explain your choice?
🙂🙃🙂🙃
Against Israel %110.
Israel, they are the victims.
All evidence shows otherwise.
Palestine.
It is clear on which side you are
I don't see how you came to that conclusion and however it doesn't really matter does it?
I am willing to debate anyone as pro-Israel.
The explanation is summed by the nature of the world in its current state, where trivial matters such as ethnicity and culture divide and establish countries, Israel has a right to its nationhood, and it is legally sanctioned by the narrative for which states are made sovereign.
Your thoughts on: imeu.org/.../self-defense-or-provocation-israels-history-of-breaking-ceasefires
and: https://www.ifamericansknew.org/stat/neff-un.html
and more specificly: itisapartheid.org/.../...tionsInternationalLaw.pdf
as well as this: antiwar.com/.../
Why does Israel have a right to nation hood? Why do they have a right to nation hood at the expense of other nations?
@hellionthesage
Initial rebuttal.
First nationhood and sovereignty is not dependent on the wellbeing of other nations.
I will review the information, and then return with a rebuttal.
But how is soveriegnty created? By force. That is the only way nationhood exists is through brute force. So claiming that Israel has a right to the land that was given to them by a foreign power who themselves had claimed as theirs purely because they had the military might to do so is not a very good argument. By that reasoning if palastine managed to eradicate everyone in Israel then they would have the right to that land. Again not a very good argument since its only a right so long as you have the force to keep it. By your reasoning Israel could be nuked out of existence by America/palastine/egypt/etc. and it would then belong to them.
@hellionthesage
Before we continue our debate, it should be noted, that I identify myself as a world citizen, and believe the world should be a united world nation.
i do not believe in ethnicity or trivial primitive matters that separate us as people.
And I do not believe in maintaining borders, as in I believe in unity.
I only support Israel's right to sovereignty under the current state of things (separated world), I do not want Israel to continue as a country, as I do not believe in countries, but should the world remain separate (for the time being), I believe Israel has the right to exist as a sovereign nation.
I'll get into why, but I'd like to understand your reaction to my beliefs, and separately why you support the claim to and for palestinian statehood, before we go any further.
www.law.cornell.edu/.../statehood_international_law
thenewinternationallaw.wordpress.com/.../
All of these criteria are generally agreed upon, all of which palastine fullfilled long before the creation of Israel within the territory and state of Israel. The only reason for which Israel exists is because of the brute force of Britain which despite Palastine fullfilling all of these requirements, claimed power. It was only with the assistance of Britain, and the americas that Israel was even allowed to come into existence prior to that it did not meet any of these requirments it had neither the population, the government, recognition of other countries, nor the territory to claim statehood, nor did even have the moral grounds of inheritance that is of having there people live their for multiple generations. They literally invaded the region and after sideing with the British when palastine attempted to regain their independence from Britain, they earned favor with the English and that inturn allowed them to take land that did not belong to them.
Nobody cares about that shit
Israel.
Let the down votes come...
Explain.
why? because you disagree with me?
No, I just asked people to explain the choices no matter what they pick.
Because all the Arab countries around Israel have been just trying to annihilate them off the planet. It's not right. Palenstine isn't innocent and neither is Israel when it comes to violence. But the media coverage of this is outrageous, so anti-Israel is horrible.
What if the Israelis came to your country and kicked you out of it? How would you react?
What? It was Europeans who tried to annihilate Jews, that is why they were sent to Palestine.
The Arab countries aren't doing much to attack Israel either.
Well tell that to Britian or whoever gave them the land. And you have a choice as to where you live, Palestinians may not have wanted to live in Israel after the land was given over. But no one kicked anyone out.
You don't know much about the situation there do you? The Israelis did kick off Palestinians from their homes, that's the whole point of the conflict over there.
I have my stance on the issue, and you have yours.
Just facts, dear.
Once again, it's your point of view, "dear".
But if the land were to be returned, where should the Israelis go?
It's not a matter of point of view it's history?
Israelis could either go back to their homes (Achkinazis in Europe and Sepharads in North Africa), or for the ones who lived in Palestine before the creation of Israel, they can just live peacefully with the Palestinians like their ancestors did.
Check the video for facts since you don't know much about it. :)
I honestly don't think it's possibly for Israelis and Palestinians to live peacefully together. It's too far gone, unfortunately.
This issue is just difficult. I am a Jew. I have been to Israel many times. I have grown to side with Israel. I've been taught as a Jew, I must stand with Israel and the Jewish people. I can recognize that both sides are not innocent and have killed and committed bad things.
I'm Jewish, so I of course support Israel
That is a terrible reason to support something. You should support an idea because it has merit, because it is the truth not because of a vague association with it, not because you like the idea, not because your family believes it, only because it is the truth.
Someone's anti-Semitic, apparently
What? You're appealing to emotional fallacy when he was simply stating you a reasonable argument.
Your origin/race/religion has nothing to do with a political conflict. Do some thinking please and come back with real arguments.
PS: stop acting like a victim lmao
I can't take either of you seriously
If you can't respect me, then I can't take you seriously
"Someone's anti-Semitic, apparently" this is an illogical statement both because its an attack on character instead of the argument and because it is irrelevent to the topic. Beign against the political actions of a nation is considerably different then viewing a group of people as inferior due to their religious beliefs. Its also inaccurate as Israel is only 75% jewish yet the criticism is for the countries actions as a whole, or more specificly towards the government and the citizens who endorse it. Claiming antisemitism is an attempt to win the argument by not arguing, not very affective. If you have an argument give it, if not admit you have no argument to back your position. You show know respect to others by attempting to attack their character, even worse becaues you can't argue against what they are saying it shows you don't respect yourself.
None of you respect me
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