Magic exists. Whether people believe it does or not. Their perception of it may vary according to their customs/beliefs & or religion. Their perception and understanding may be different as their views are different.
I do not believe in it as a form of belief. People use it for good and bad but the worst kind is black magic. We have many names for it here and I've come to realize different names around the world.
It is so easy to push the thought aside, and think it doesn't exist when nothing has unveiled itself to you.
With no given proof or no experience doesn't mean it does not exist. You just need to trust your faith and believe in the unseen.
When you look for answers and dig too deep you are bound to find something , even experience it.
I've seen people be affected by it. Those who do it. Eventually go down a dark path. As it can be used for good and evil. Some proclaim it to be their faith, new age religion or divination.
Whether used for good or bad has only one thing that makes it real... Your INTENTION... That sets the tone and the difference. Everything starts with a thought process before materializing.
For good example. The Law Of Attraction to create good in your life. Sending good energy to others - Light
For bad... example curses, summoning , dark rituals, black magic, dark crafts, sacrifice, manipulation, dark hypnosis, controlling masses etc - dark Using dark forces be it evil spirits/jinn/demons. These people sell their souls for illusion / temporary satisfaction only to live with deep regret later.
After going down a dark path it is difficult for some to remove that from their lives but the only way is to relinquish the life they had before and any association to it. To set good intentions and remain clean, that includes clean clothes, environment & clean thoughts... and prayer. Fighting against any feelings of negativity - resentment, envy, jealousy and evil intent towards others. That was the intention in the first place , right? The motive behind it.
Those afflicted by it, can reverse curses, spells etc by setting good intentions. Only remaining positive. Cleansing themselves (clothes, environment, removing toxicity out their lives - people places and any negative situation), their minds and spirit. Always being in a state of light with prayer, self awareness, good intent, cleanliness - I cannot stress this enough as dark forces cannot live in clean environment nor vessel. Or a positive mind and a heart filled with love.
I would agree. Except on your ending point, it is a good attitude to take while practicing, but would leave you weak to manipulation. Also that most people who do start practicing black magic are much like anyone else who starts harming people.
At least on my end if the intention is to take a shortcut, or harm, rather than putting in the work and effort, those actions are reflected in how I conduct myself. In most areas of life I give people a lot of benefit of the doubt. There are plenty of good people who do "bad" things and still believe them to be good and necessary.
That is not true if you clear your mind and focus your intention on a car tire popping, your bullet flying true, making someone attracted to you (vs. simply talking to them first), so on and so forth. If successful, there isn't room for any other noise except that intention, and realizing it.
And to answer your question, no, my first intention was not to fight against negativity or anything altruistic, just curiosity and power. I don't really have any grand ambitions. Just to see my family prosper. :)
Lol no harm intended I was born into this life from many generations and have a greater knowledge of where my natural balance lies. My intentions are much more clear and pure. I am far from weak to manipulation and do not practice dark arts nor have I ever lol.
You make very interesting points. Manifestation can be brought on with no I'll intent at times also. No dark or black magic needed. Even light magic can cause harm good intentions sometimes backfire.
The people who practice don't go about sprinkling it around like fairy dust there has been way too much criticism and let's be honest people put to death for practicing through the ages.
Even though people are becoming more accepting there is still a fear out there for some, It's still a close circle kind of thing.
"With no given proof or no experience doesn't mean it does not exist. You just need to trust your faith and believe in the unseen." - No, no you don't. You're right in saying just because there's no proof it doesn't mean it does not exist, but what it does mean is that there's no reason to believe it does exist. Sure, it could exist but anything *could* exist. That doesn't mean everything exists, it just means that it could exist. I don't believe that things that could exist actually do exist, I only believe that they could exist.
Yes I do. Other day I was just about to eat steak and chips in front of the T. V. when someone came to the door. When I returned a barely 2 mins later the steak had vanished. There was no one else at home and no one could have sneaked in or the dogs would have barked. Got to be magic.
Magic is just a fantasious way to insert technology in a world where technology is not present, narration wise. Reality wise, magic is NOT a thing. The only way in which you can generate fire, for instance, is through friction or chemical reaction, which is science, not magic. Magicians are excellent at sleight of hand and at duping your senses, but there's always a trick, no supernatural stuff. Magic is a useful MacGuffin, not stuff of reality.
I'd agree with the premise that if someone claimed they could cast video-game magic, I'd find it laughable. Our world is not Diablo II. I do disagree as far as faith and wish fulfillment go. My general rule is if it is a realistic possibility, even the improbable can be brought about by concretely envisioning that and working towards it.
As you said, if I wanted antibiotics, I wouldn't wish for it, I'd see a doctor, or absent that culture mold, isolate penicillin, and continue to culture mold until finding one that has the highest yield of penicillin. Unfortunately there is no flint down here (wetlands with sandstone 60 feet or so down), so if I don't have a lighter, or magnifying glass, just have to hope a swamp gets struck by lightning and ignites the methane. Either that or hike a hundred miles... When you have fire down here, you don't want it, when you want it, you have few ways to make it.
No. There's a natural explanation for everything. Invoking the supernatural as an explanation where the natural explanation remains undiscovered denotes a lack of inquisitive courage and gives people a poor excuse to be content with mystery.
I actually agree with that 100%. I was talking to JJ about the observer effect, and it isn't a lack of courage or being inquisitive that stops me from investigating why reality is subjective until it is observed. It's that that level of science is beyond my comprehension and budget. Closest I ever came to that level was NMR, and computational chemistry.
Someone else would have to research if there's any fundamental changes in the brain or body preceding any physical change. That isn't anything I'm good at, I could rig someone up with a crude EEG, but knowing what any of it means, even to the level of filtering out signal noise is beyond me.
Besides, no one ever gave grant money to research "magic", mostly just drugs and drug delivery systems. No other research paid money and lasted for very long compared to those two. I highly doubt anyone would give enough grant money to have even third hand equipment to investigate something that by nature is non-scientific.
The U. S government has actually funded a few "unscientific" projects. Have you ever seen the movie "men who stare at goats"? That is loosely based on a real government project. There have been others like it too.
It's been a while since I saw that one, good movie. They had some interesting ones, like the training to see remote locations and describe them accurately and what not. Also all the LSD to lead up to the methods and practice of psy-ops... cumulative effect? oh no!
I suppose I'd want to do American revolution then. My family has no deep history here, simply grandparents, and a couple great-grandparents flocking here for a better life, or to simply escape famine. Hey, who's to say we won't get a real life re-enactment of the revolution though? lol
I have countless ancestors who fought in the Civil War (both sides,) a few from the War of 1812, eleven ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War, one who participated in the Boston Tea Party, and one who came to America on the Mayflower. I have history out the butt!
Well, that was the theme of the civil war, brother on brother. I don't know much of my family history before they came to America, just that potato famines are bad, and names are kinda arbitrary at Ellis Island lol
I don't have the brother against brother scenario, but have one ancestor (Union) killed at the Battle of Perryville and another (CSA) captured and sent to a Union prison where he died.
Nope depending on definition. Magick is typically defined as something “supernatural” or “apparently supernatural”. The latter is possible. The former is, by definition, impossible. I don’t believe in the supernatural, if there was evidence that something supernatural was possible then how would we prove it was actually supernatural and not just a natural thing that we don’t yet understand?
I agree with the second definition. Perception and how it shapes reality is a poorly understood thing. Add in to that improbability vs. impossibility and the avenues for investigation are near endless.
The funding is not though. If people manage to live and breed off of Earth, I have no doubt we'll discover new, strange things about ourselves, our environment, and the influence we have over it. Those would be important things to research in that context. They aren't here on Earth though, so we don't by and large except where it can benefit us in applied science.
I think there is a scientific explanation behind the phenomena known as magic or witchcraft. I also think no one would benefit from researching it, so no one does.
You think nobody would benefit from discovering the presence of magic or learn how to perform actual magic? Look at how much money fake magicians make.
I still don't believe it but once I got sick while my father and me were camping and some weird ass hippie pagan woman chanted some spells and gave me some essential oils and shit. Maybe it was a coincidence but I did feel better. On the other hand my grandfather took me to a gypsy shaman in Romania while we were travelling there as a family to cure me from my ungodly urge to want a tattoo. That didn't work but I was very creeped out after that.
I can see that, in one case you see cause and effect, with room for many possibilities. In the other you see cause, no effect, but still the reality that there are people who practice that, and believe in it.
I like that, and makes sense, with illusions there is always cause and effect. A concrete chain. Even if video game style MP pool, "lightning bolt!" magic was something we could do, it would have no causality. No way to prove where it came from, or that any person caused the effect to begin with.
It's why I left the question at believe in. Not believe in proof, or what not. Belief is on par with faith, anyway, you can see some strange and unexplainable things if you every dive into the world of the occult. It isn't that hidden, more if you look for it you find it, but if you don't, you're unlikely to to. Everyone draws their own conclusions from their own experiences or lack thereof.
I'm not sure, but once I met a "satanist" and I was only messing around with her until she told me things I've never told anyone about, she knew about the secret relationship I've been having behind my parents' back, she knew about the illness my grandfather had, she knew about my ex and the things that happened between us
It was insane, there's no way she could've known about all of it, and it wasn't even an arranged meeting, it was completely random online.
From my limited understanding most of the satanist church is window dressing, pretty much large groups of atheists that gather to have a church setting with an absence of god. The original core of it did get pretty deep into ritual with no restraints though.
Yes, fitting into one of two categories. In one you deny the premise of reality and then take anything that goes your way is being magic, as the world is a construct of your own, that's closer to insanity.
In the other the world is simply malleable, there are ways to indirectly manifest your will, whether through ritual, gods, sacrifice, whatever that person believes in. Since the world is still real though, simple wish-fulfillment is not enough, you still have to work for the goals you want to achieve. I tend to avoid those who believe in the first system as those assumptions are dangerous, like how they react when things don't go as they expect. The second can encompass any faith system, and I tend to respect people who have a strong sense of self.
I think magic is a lasy way to avoid having to explain something.
Even when it was a thing people burned for it was just society's way of killing off those it did not understand but the magic itself as a power to bend reality does not exist for sure
There is psychological and psychiatric research there. Mostly involving possession and what not, how to treat people who are/believe they are suffering from that. If you want something studied, you need money to study it first.
A hospital has the money to wonder how to treat people and investigate underlying causes better and makes more money if it can succeed there. I can't think of any school doling out grant money in the physics department to research magic. You can do a hobby project for submission to NASA, and then get grant money from that. Even if proof were produced of "the supernatural" in any sense, there would be no gain there.
We did have mystical things we researched, radiation, magnetism, and electricity among them. Those were the realm of the supernatural until Isaac Newton and industrialization opened the door to find causality and quantify relationships that were mystical before. Anyway, I think it's more that we have a feeling now that we know everything more so than being curious and exploring seemingly unrelated events to find those links and quantify them. Couple that with a funding system of publish or perish, there are very few places researching "pure" vs. "applied" research.
Also that the one paper studying witchcraft cited the most is about how studying it scientifically automatically leads you to a conclusion before you begin, and backing up my experiences that no one is in a rush to be a pariah, because regardless of what you publish, the answer is wrong for studying it in the first place. This was in 1977.
All I really know is that funding for so-called "PSI" research has largely dried up after decades of work found nothing repeatable. That's no surprise, as there is no known physical mechanism that would allow thought transmission to be real.
I personally like to believe there is something more than the ordinary. This is why I embrace fantasy films to catch a glimpse and a whiff of what that looks like
Well, on that I do think as far as faith and wish fulfillment go working towards goals and having them be concrete makes a big difference. As far as going further than that, so far the observer effect presents that possibility, going one of several ways. I'll be honest that physical chemistry is as far as I understand quantum theory and math, so I don't go past that level with my assumptions of anything it means past the light slit experiment.
Yes I do... Magic exists... It isn't any kind of magic you watch on T. V... Magic that involves Jinn... Making them do whatever you want as an exchange of something else does exist..
So the magic you believe in isn't a manifestation of will, but a contract with forces outside our comprehension? I'm not knocking it, just trying to understand, it's a different system than any I know.
There is no other power a person possesses, the magician simply calls upon the Jinn, the creatures who see the unseen, the ones that see us but we don't.. They have no power over anything except that they can affect the way we think, hurt our feelings, or disturb our mentality... The Jinn are creatures like us that sneak into our houses, do what their master "the magician "orders them to do... Some have the ability to hurt humanbeings physically... Black magic is the worst cause the knots of magic done are sacrificed through blood, feces, or other dirty things, black magic is deadly, a lot died because of it, it caused disease to those upon whom the magic was cast.. Anyone that associates himself with magic will go straight to Hell.
Manifestation is something we Muslims believe in... but we interpret it in a different way than you, we were told by our prophet that we never should be pessimists, that whatever bad or good we say, might fall back at us.. Do you know the story of prophet "Joseph"?
In the Holy Qouraan he was trapped by the wife of the king of Egypt, the one who found him in the well, and raised him to be a man, who fell in love with him to the point of having dragged him into her lures, tried to seduce him, and make him fall into a sin, he resisted her, and said" Imprisonment is more beloved to me than what they are calling me upon thee"... God then told him that if he asked God for protection from them, bless, and well-being, he would have never ended up being in Jail for something he never did... But he got imprisoned after the wife of the King of Egypt accused him of having touched her, when he never did that or thought of doing it...
In short... We Muslims 100% believe in positive thinking, and this is mentioned in the Holy Qouraan and the Narrations... You never should give up, or think in a negative way... The positivity you guys talk about, the vibes that bring luck you talk about, are to us "The good believe and thinking in God's kindness, power, and Mercy"
Sorry if I took a while to reply, I was tying it all together. So Jinn would be outsiders who facilitate tragedy, famine and plague for a contract. The counter balance to that would be to think positively, because doing so will not just protect you from those who would seek to harm you, but bring you closer to divinity, allowing that pathway to manifest itself.
Rather than strictly illusions, forcing your will onto reality to enact change, mostly through work, partly through ritual. It could be a desire to get better grades in school, be in better shape, or something far more involved. The use of ritual is to get you to believe in the reality you want to manifest. A religious movement you're probably familiar with had many members who did similar was wicca. Though some practitioners do believe in the use of illusions in a group setting to increase the "belief".
I've read more books than I can remember on different religions, faiths, and magic. Same theme seems to be the same, faith, and clear intentions. Like if you just wish for wealth, rather than earning more, a car crash with serious injury would be the quickest route. So you would get your wish, just not in a form you would desire. Think monkey paw.
No need to apologize, when I first heard about the trans movement my first thought was people were doing Rocky Horror reenactments again lol, we all have misunderstandings.
I'll go with George W. there, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. It's an unknown unknown, also one no one will research outside of possession and how to treat it in clinical settings. The military did spend a dime on PSI and got a pay-off there. Completely inexplicable, but it works.
I'd say there is some underlying connection that could be researched if anyone ever cared to do so.
I'm not trying to disprove your claim, but could you link to some? I've been having issues finding research past about the 1970's that aren't more about mysterious artifacts, or things we can't explain in the nano or quantum realm.
Most artifacts (unknown sources of signal noise) have been studied enough to find explanations for, some of them are just accepted as being strange. Like I was part of a group study where we found data that argued against a proven model, like going back to the 19th century, we were like "woah!" until we started trying to figure out what could have gone wrong (publishing without doing so is laughable), and it was simply extreme temperature changing the sensitivity of the sensor, which was in the manual, and our sensor wasn't very sensitive to begin with.
So we just had to go with the conclusion we got, we have no useful data except comparing to known models and removing temperature bias and artifacts from that particular sensor as we have sensors that measured temperature on the board, and sensor every time we were measuring our variable.
Don't really have the time to go link-hunting rn. But if you find those government documents that got released to the public, (the ones everyone was like 'ooh aliens') They mention a lot of that kind of thing in those. Fair warning though, it's apparently a lot to read through. There are also other sources, but most of them can't be considered credible. Also, it depends on what kind of magick we are talking about, one of the kinds of 'magick' witches use is literally 'natural medicine', something you can go to med schools to learn. Quite a few of their other practices can be summed up to a bit of simple psychology. I do not study magick/witchcraft, so I don't know very much about it, you would probably find better examples if you talked to an actual magick practitioner.
Fair enough, like someone had mentioned the Psi trials our government ran. I agree that most, if not all mysticism could be quantified if anyone took the time to do so... I'll look into reading some more later, for the here and now this topic is starting to burn me out some, reading and keeping track of other aspects. The Jinn one was new to me, and there is a lot to read up on there, it's interesting.
There is that, if your ritual is to a god, you're literally marketing yourself to every god that has existed. Our ancestors could be pretty brutal in their worship and their gods.
What do you believe in then? Everyone has to stand for something. If not, that's got to be kind of empty. I went to a couple humanism meetings in college, but the intent seemed much more to hook-up than anything else.
Yes, though my beliefs are strange. I think that how we perceive the world is the act of creating it, constantly. If no living being was around to see the world, it would simply fade. Our consciousness allows us to perceive more of the world than most animals, so we exert more control over it.
Simply believing in something strong enough while actively working towards it will connect A to B if it can be done. I don't think magic can work without some sort of relationship or connection. Since I don't believe that, I can't make it work without that connection.
Likewise, the "change" you're trying to push is irrelevant to how many observers will resist the thought of it. If you wanted to summon a goodyear blimp, many people would reject the idea, their willpower is greater, reality remains unchanged. If it is a cloud, rain, heat, wealth, attraction, status, what have you, only the number of people it affects will change your odds of success.
Every time you do not encounter success, your chances of success are lowered for any future attempts as your will, and your belief have been reduced. Lots of people use ritual, contracts, or things like that to increase that belief, same with working in covens or large numbers. I tried the coven thing once, and only noticed that if you really write down the details of what you want, it changes. Like keeping that vision consistent between people is damned near impossible.
It does create paradoxes, like what is the observer that created us? It would be easy to turn to a faith, if every faith didn't mention other gods, and easy to turn to science, if the start point wasn't a singularity that "pop" came into being containing everything. So, don't worry about it, paradoxes exist, that's fine.
First, I don’t believe in good magic and bad magic. I believe all magic is evil and comes from the dark side. The Bible mentions magic as existing. Being a believer in both God and the Bible that’s what influenced my belief in magic. I do believe in the supernatural as I have had personal experiences with Ouija boards, poltergeists and ghosts. I know what I saw and experienced in those situations. Those were when I was much younger. Needless to say I avoid the supernatural and the occult at all costs these days.
As far as my handle, I served in the U. S. Marines and deployed twice to the Middle East. The only magic I preformed there was making bodies disappear.
Lots of believers in the Norse system in the Marines, at least when I was in that was the case. I get your stance though. Every platoon had the holy man. Fun to make fun of in garrison, but prayer time is pretty serious before the shit hits the fan. Of course every platoon had more guys not realize PT in shorts with a canteen meant wiz quiz and still did a line the night before too, tends to be more flocking to the bible thumper than the ones who try alignment to the right... lol
Which one? I mean, I'm making the assumption you're talking about Judeo-Christian God, but there have been a countless number of gods throughout history.
There's thousands in the Arab world that do magic, black magic is the worst, some do deal with the Jinn to hurt a person, others ask them to make someone love the person they want to attract, some magic is used for good things like bringing a person together with another, while other magic is so bad it makes people loose their minds, even causes death... You can go to YouTube and type black magic found in Saudi Arabia, Morroco, or any Arab country, people hide black magics"spells" in graves amongst the dead..
Sorry to hear that, I take it a practitioner of it bragged to you about what would happen? If it's any consolation there is usually backlash if that is used for harm. It's why wicca and many other faiths that practice magic on a regular don't go for harming others. Not any altruistic impulses, but to not suffer the same or worse. Think of simply setting a fire to harm someone. How likely is it that you won't be burned at some point yourself, possibly worse than your intended victim?
That presents a dilemma though, as far as making sense goes. The ten commandments were handed down in large part because of idol worship, the 1st commandment being "Thou shalt not have other gods before me".
If there is only one God in the holy trinity, why would that have to be a rule, or worshipping of other gods and practicing of witchcraft so specifically banned in Judaism as well as Christianity?
The reason why God ban the worship of different Gods is because these false Gods can make you feel like your doing right yet your actually doing wrong. Imagine this if your God said to kill such and such, would you do it? Our God ( Christianity ) wouldn't let you do that. he do it himself. As for magic, first off even if magic were real, do you really think these people today are mentally capable of having such power
Honestly my interest and research there first got piqued by taboo. I think it was something about communion wafers being stolen when I was a kid, and wondering why anyone would do that. It isn't like it's difficult to dig much deeper in New Orleans if you look. Anyway, you're right, most people would skip straight to the path of least resistance and invite in whatever came knocking because of a lack of faith in themselves, or faith in anything greater than themselves.
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