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Just a reflection that might be interesting, held with not much details briefly sketching the main ideas, so the rest you'd have to figure out by yourself, if you want to.
(Warning: that could induce by you thoughts, that, if thinked through, could change your life and not necessarily in a good sense, so if you are highly suggestible, I recommend, you think of it as of piece of fiction first, if you are going to read it. And then decide, whether you would like to know, what you have read or not.)
Life can't be contained in any frame created by human mind. Many different sometimes contradicting world views can be true "at the same time", if you consider different times of application, different situations, that can seem the same outwardly, and different perspectives for the same thing or the same abstract entity.
We design models of life (to some part consciously, to the most part not), that are compatible, with what we have experienced and learned in our lives, that are capable of letting us to find a right decision what to do for most situations quickly or to give us answers to questions asked during self-reflections and letting us to explain a lot of things (not all) we encounter and have then after the encounter to include in the system of understanding intuition and understanding belief known to us.
So humans just have, each one of them, his/her own certain sample of intuitional knowledge, beliefs, axioms (convictions, that they just accept without known reason or derivation) about which they think to know or to feel - both is an illusion - , that this one sample is the right one: because that is logical (seems to them logical, exactly because they are inside of the system) - for dominantly rational ones, because it has proved itself effective - for dominantly experimenting type, because that is known as truth given to humanity by god itself (bringing the focus out of oneself + axiomatic conviction) - for dominantly religious ones and so on. Many types can be named, and of course there are also (mostly) mixed ones.
From this sample the person derives (unconsciously the person's sample) his or her life philosophy.
So, if you know, what all this stuff is about, you know that the value of such philosophies is just:
1) to keep the world order maintained - because the circumstance, that humans think similarly and live by global consideration similar lives provides then a certain measure of equality for such samples and life philosophies in different humans, so we can in most cases live with the idea to embrace the say of the majority, so that the life is safe and of acceptable quality for the most,
2) to keep you living normal life, because from them you can derive (consciously or unconsciously) motivation, happiness, self-confidence and so on...
You know then, that such samples and world views are highly random and don't mean everything at all themselves and there is no possibility to choose "the right one", because the origin of them all is the same and no one of them is actually objectively prioritized by the way of how you derive it from this origin.
So knowing all that, or thinking all that, what's pretty much the same (in this case), you are left, where you have no preferences by choosing and so you could just choose randomly _A_ single one life philosophy and embrace it or you could choose to change them in dependence of which of them is the most suitable one with respect to what you want to achieve or to do in the certain moment of time. Of course this changing requires some mental work, but as soon as you have fully understood, what the written above actually means and went through it establishing for yourself the truth of it, that won't be that hard. Because you won't feel an inner obligation anymore to stay, by what you have chosen or by what was derived by your life, that will be set as free choice from then on.
There is also the way of choosing nothing and being then in nothingness, but that's a hardcore experience and kinda drives you crazy, if you stay there for too long.
For myself I chose the way of changing life philosophies adaptively, having had been a whole lot of time in the nothingness.
Originally I planned to make it a response to some question, but then I saw that it's way too long and thought I won't let it go to waste. Kinda curious, if someone would read such stuff presented, i.e. if I can bring such text over "nicely".
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well you're not really "free" to change them if you're living in a dogmatic indoctrinated society where everyone uses religious faith as their method to understand the world and to know how to conduct one self.
if you're shunned, discriminated against and suppressed for not following a particular philosophy, how free are you then?
considering the circumstances given by the outer world, you aren't indeed in some cases. But you are considering an ideal isolated environment (like physical thought experiments or like a lab vacuum approximation, which still contains some particles). Actually that is even possible to create such one in your life in a sense of a good approximation, maybe not for every one, so f. e. people from Saudi Arabia might be strictly restricted in the way you mentioned.
i don't quite understand how particles or any physical sort of variables matter in "life philosophy" xD i mean there are life philosophies out there that aren't just "free" of physical constraints, they even defy the physical real world. all abrahamic religions do that. the constraints the members of those life philosophies have are in fact not physical. they are caused my methods of self deception and willfull ignorance of the physical world and truth as a whole.
That was just an analogue for how it is possible to be free in the disputed choice despite of the constraints. I agree with that those philosophies aren't practiced the right way mostly, but the people who practice them actually are living their lives as long as some of them don't disturb the lifes of the others, these some are allowed to live so and won't have any problems to do so. So it's still possible. You could argue, that it isn't beneficial for a person who lives in the 21-st century to have religious beliefs, well, if they aren't adapted to the current stage of civilization, in my opinion too rather not, if they are I think it can be quite beneficial, but that is a huge topic - to mention it: one can split his consciousness in two (consciously) and not let one's scientific mind to be influenced by the religious half, when it is needed to think only scientifically.
i agree with you completely that some philosophies aren't pracitced right, in the sense that they are full of logical fallacies and contradictions.
i disagree that this sort of think is in anyway long term beneficial. not even to the individual. short term, yeah it can help. so for example if you're gonna die next week to cancer or whatever, in that case, it can help.
but have you ever met a person who was unable to keep their faith after years of delusion, cause the overwhelming evidence of the real world compells them to realize that everything they ever thought was true to be false?
religious dogmatism creates a severe life crysis for people who find a way out of it after years of indoctrination. that can come with severe depression, disillusion and general confusion. this is no joke and i think doing that shit to people isn't justified.
On the other hand TRUE believers of these religions, that really do follow them (and my definition is not necessarily some of the mainstream like ones) are very kindhearted, generous and just good people. So I don't see myself entitled to judge, whether there is more bad or good in religion. Not to forget is too that what you mentioned has it's roots in the person itself in my opinion. A true believer who beliefs in the way someone should, if ever do, wouldn't be ever dogmatic or indoctrinated, because true belief is wise. There is no true belief without wisdom - or let's say there can be belief in the meaning of this word without wisdom but not the belief I myself think of as justified. I see the problem only in how human beings do it or percept it, but it is exactly the same with science: science brought nuklear weaponry to give an example. Everything a human gets in his hands can be misused and turned dark by the human, but itself it is just neutral waiting to be painted. And you or someone could argue the religion has greater potential to mislead humans - maybe, I may not have an opinion about this one, it'd be too arrogant (to me now).
there are no "true" believers of any religion. there are only believers and non believers. you have no linguistic method todefine "true" believers as nothing in any religion is mutually agreed on. they all have denominations and differing interpretations of the same books. therefore "true" believers can't exist, as a "true" content of said believe doesn't exist.
maybe start defining "good people" as "very kindhearted, generous and just good people", cause religion doesn't fit that description. and even then those labels are also subjective. right now what you're doing is trying hard to give religion a positive vibe but really that positive vibe you're seeing is in the individual, not in the religion.
true believe isn't what you believe, it is how you act and think. And I know people personally who have greatly benefited from believing these books in exactly this sense. A definition isn't needed for that:)
exactly, like the negative ones, it is all in the individual, you see one face of it
The question is how you reflect the light will you focus or diffuse it.
they benefit from being good people. they are being good people for making good decisions not due to their religion. them being religios isn't anything that helps them being good people. they are good people despite of it.
because abrahamic and most similar believes are inherently dishonest, contradictory, decieving and ignorant of reality so a person following that religion and still managing to be a decent person is quite a feat. the only explanation for them being good is inside them, not inside the religion they happen to follow.
virtue is in the person, not in the religion. a virtuous person that believes in christianity for example does not follow christianity. cause if they would, they would fuck hookers (have concubines), have slaves, beat their wifes and stone the "wicked" like homosexuals and such, as all thos things are explicitly permisseable in the bible.
everybody who does not do those horrible things is already better than the bible and therefore their believe isn't what makes them good. it's themselves that are good.
it is them interpreting the bible according to their own internal values that makes them conduct themselves in a good way. the goodness doesn't come from the bible or religion. it comes from the people. i will not budge from that assertion, cause i know it's true and i won't accept any wishy washy philosophy that tries to put religion on the same level as good people, cause it isn't.
i may sound very harsh but i'm strongly convicted and it would take quite a bit to get me away from this conviction. i'm just saying this to make clear that i'm not suffering from delusion. i'm well informed and cirtically thinking and my convictions bases on knowledge and experience. i will admit that i'm wrong but for that i must be shown to be wrong first.
Lmao did you read what exactly Jesus said for example? I'm not talking about ALL THE STUFF from the bible now, only about what he brought to us. There wasn't anything a good person wouldn't and shouldn't accept. That is the essence of christianity, to have an example of religion. Bhagavad-Gita or Dao de Tsing, have you read them? To speak about it in this manner? Or do you mean only abrahamic religions? Also the essential verses of Quran that have to be followed by the followers?;) Only a fool would take a book and read a book. A normal person would take the book and learn from god, who has written it (disclaimer: not necessarily my view, but mine is too complicated), just like a scientist doesn't take something just so, he learns from what he sees and evaluates and analyzes everything he sees all together.
I'm speaking only about theistic religions. Taoism isn't theistic. If you understand a god like Freud describes the Id, ego, superego, then I will agree but Christianity doesn't define it like that and neither does the Quran or Judaism.
every human has the ability to project. a thought pattern so to speak to assum a viewpoint hiher and better than the own individual being. this point of view however is still a subjective function of the individual human brain and not a separate, unified entity. and that is exactly the mistake of most theistic religions.
being good or bad doesn't come from outside. it comes from within the individual.
okay, then I know you mean only theistic ones, you are right the mentioned don't do it like in taoism and Bhagavad-Ghita and further similar. I wasn't entirely sure if you meant only the abrahamic ones or religion all together.
I have figured out this model of reality and god illusion myself too as a possbile one, however if this one is truly the right one, then people who believe in theismus of any kind (or even in taoismus) are wrong in the sense that it is a wrong belief. But as long as this particular wrongness doesn't affect anything in a bad way, it's fine. And since I know people, by whom one can see this kind of wrongness to believe in god creator but doesn't see any negative consequences of it, I conclude for myself that most likely the negative things come from people reactions on what they believe and the thing they believe for itself isn't the reason or the cause.
i don't know much about Bhagavad-Ghita to be completely honest but in taoism and buddhism you're not punished for disagreeing or critiquing. you're actually encouraged to think for yourself unlike in abrahamic religion and lots of other theistic religions like norse mythology or greek mythology or some older egypt religions.
that's why i said that you're not free in all of those philosophies. some of them are dogmatic and restrictive.
You are criticizing exactly the point I hated myself for years by thinking of these religions! It's amazing:) Yes, It is wrong, I agree, in my opinion too... But the evidence my life provided me with has shown to me, that exactly these things I or we can't accept are such that are needed so much by people with free minds - maybe free mind just makes any one to full of themselves in a sense unavoidably and that isn't a good thing. So I am not able to blame them for that anymore because it would be a lie to do so, if I would do it seeing what I see. I see that these restrictions, this submission to god, if practiced the right way f. e. in the sense of following christianic commandments, makes out of people the ones who are kindhearted have a stable family life and maintain their moral on a high level compared to a big part of today's population today, who don't. We, as people, a lot of us could use very much, what these religions can teach us in the sense of some personality traits, that in a sense just come by following them the right that. That is what I have seen or believe to have seen after careful evaluation and analysis. But that is just my opinion too, just like yours. I can't claim, that to be the truth.
ah, you mean it that way, so I actually meant something more global or rather more abstract than religious philosophies, since the religious ones provide you with a frame of reality, the life philosophyies I meant in the first line lie on deeper level, are more flexible in this sense. A religious one would be just a concretized manifestation of some form of life philosophie in the primary sense from the mytake
exactly they not only "suggest" a phrame for reality. they force their frame onto you and imprison your thoughts by scaring you with consequences worse than death if you dare to question that phrame of reality.
i mean you could not let those religions count as "live philosophy", then i would agree. however even then, people who are still in those faith based religions are definitely in lots of places on the planet not "free".
i just realized you're german :D so maybe you have the same view that i had a few months ago. i thought it's just muslim countries who do that kind of thing where the entire society enforces the individual to stick to dogma by otherwise shunning them or applying even worse punishments... but it is even still in america, that you may lose your career, your friends, your family... basically everything you have if you decide to think freely and question those believes that you are taught.
I'm not really German, just studying here yet, but never mind:). I think this destructive influence of denying the commonly accepted beliefs applies only if you voice your doubts right? So don't voice them. Although this would be a restriction on usually claimed freedom of thinking, I know it would. I honestly don't know whether I could believe it is true f. e. in US and whether I could believe the intepretation for what happens (if I assume it really happens) you offer to me is the right one. I had to inform myself first about the situation. But that is a bit offtopic, indeed in the original posting I dindn't mean religion in the first place, but we came to speak about benefits and problems of religion. And about the latter we could dispute eternally:)
well those things happen. and all i'm saying is that it is obvious that there are good and bad christians or good and bad muslims and there are probably also good and bad taoists. so really the virtue comes from the individual, not the religion or philosophy they associate with. being good isn't trivial. it's hard work and you can be wrong in your attemts at being good, which sucks.
Interesting thoughts, thanks...
you are welcome! Glad, it was interesting
GOD is above the dome
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