u I've always been told not to criticize the pope, especially publicly because it will drive people away from the Catholic Church and create disunity. Plus, there is a certain level of filial piety and respect that faithful Catholics ought to show him anyway.
This question is not specifically about Pope Francis.
I think they should criticise the entire institution. There is no ground for papacy in the Bible and there's a good reason protestants protested back in the 1500's. The Catholic church, for all its due credit in accomplishments, was corrupt in many ways. And the very nature of papacy is corrupt, to elevate a mortal man to rank of "vicar of Christ" with near god-like authority, come on. Catholics may take pride in their traditions, their grand and imposing churches, their pretty attires, long, complex prayers and and ostentatious ceremonies, but they will do as little to vouch for them on the day of judgement as it did the pharisees.
I find that funny. To be a pope, you have to meet a certain mental criteria. To be quite frank, if one is evil, they are all evil because they all think the same and always have.
Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
https://play. google. com/store/apps/details? id=bible. kingjamesbiblelite
The pope is just some mammon who thinks he's God to be worshipped. Why do Catholics think they need him or a pope in general?
Opinion
18Opinion
u Isn't the Pope a man and not a superhuman or a deity? He may go around acting pious all day long, but. . .
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward."
Matthew 6:5
Criticism is a positive thing. When people are not allowed to criticize their leader, that is no longer leadership, that's a fascist dictatorship.
Our Holy Father is not a dictator. He is human, and as a human, sometimes does things that deserve criticism, and he learns from that.
He is human?
Matthew 6:9-15 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
play.google.com/.../details
To call a pope your heavenly father is such utter blasphemy it blows my mind.
Do Catholics not believe in God? Do they believe the pope is God? I mean the bible is so perfectly clear on all those subjects.
1 John 2:21-22 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
play.google.com/.../details
And ironically, if the holy pope father thinks he's the holy father, then than means he denies the true father making himself a antichrist.
What Pope? You mean the Antipope?
https://rumble.com/vume9o-seven-pieces-of-evidence-that-francis-is-an-antipope.html
Nope. The pope is just doing what they always have. As a note, trump and every president is a freemason and the catholic church created it. The pope is the actual president of the United States so far as I'm concerned and other countries. People are so incredibly in the dark it's ridiculous
A few words from the 6th president... He must of been on great terms with the masons right? I mean according to you "As a note, trump and every president is a freemason", thus why John Quincy Adams would openly oppose them and expose them and their secrets so that they'd have to run and hide is sects like Mormonism...
Stephen Bates Esq. Boston
Washington 1 April 1833
I thank you for your kindness and attention in procuring and transmitting to me the Letter which about this Time last year I wrote to my young and now deceased friend John B. Davis, little as I imagined when it was written how sad and by what a melancholy casualty it would return to me.
He had written to me, requesting a Letter from me to Governor Lincoln recommending him as a Candidate for the appointment of public attorney for the County of Suffolk, then, or soon expected to be vacant. And knowing my opinions, adverse to the Masonic Institution, of which he was a member, he had mentioned the fact to me, as a circumstance which he deemed it proper Should be known to me, in coming to my determination upon his request. From the Confidence which I had in his personal integrity, and the friendship which I entertained for him, I did not hesitate to comply with his desire. I wrote to him the Letter which you have seen and on the same day recommended him by another to Governor Lincoln.
It may perhaps have occurred to you that if it had fallen into hands, of persons on the search for matter of charge or censure upon me, they would have argued on inconsistency between the sentiments expressed in this Letter, and those avowed in another to Mr. Benjamin Cowell of Rhode Island of more recent date, and which has been published; but there is no inconsistency between them at all. In the Letter to Mr. Cowell I declared my approbation of the principle of those Anti-Masons, who believing the Masonic Institutions to be an enormous Nuisance in the Community; and that if the Oaths, Obligations and Penalties were not voluntarily relinquished, they ought to be prohibited by Penal Statutes enacted by the State Legislatures, voted exclusively for persons holding the same opinions, to be members of the State Legislatures. Thus far I cordially approved of Political Anti-Masonry - And hold it to be neither disfranchisement nor persecution of Masons - The Legislature of Rhode Island have gone further. They have made the Administration of extra judicial Oaths penal; and have interdicted it my disfranchisement for the second offense. This I approve also, because it looks to the future. It does not disfranchise men because they have taken or administered extra judicial Oaths heretofore. That was Mr. Davis’s case. I should not hold it justifiable to exclude such persons from public offices. I might scrutinize somewhat more closely their principles.
To all members of the Masonic fraternity, who entered it before the murder of Morgan I would extend the most liberal Toleration. Most of them took the Oaths without reflecting upon what they imported, or sheltering their consciences under the great names which had gone before them. They were always taken by surprize, Summoned to take the Oath without knowing what it was. Now the case is otherwise. How they can now take or administer the cutthroat Oath to keep Secret, what all the world knows, I cannot comprehend.
I am with much Respect, Sir, your obedt Servt
J. Q Adams
Or how about John F. Kennedy a Catholic who was part of my Grandparents' and Father's congregation stepped up to the plate to oppose masonry... Catholics excommunicate you for practicing freemasonry even though portions of the church have been infiltrated... JFK actively opposed the New World Order, by passing executive order Executive Order 11110 which delegated to the Secretary of the Treasury the president's authority to issue silver certificates which would have broken the back of the Federal Reserve which is a major instrument of freemasons to destroy the economy of the United States of America. Now that you can see how they have devalued our currency in the current era and are attempting to move America toward a CBDC and a One World currency it should be easy enough to understand how JFK also opposed the masons and tried to throw a monkey wrench in the works.
www.presidency.ucsb.edu/.../executive-order-11110-amendment-executive-order-no-10289-amended-relating-the-performance
JFK threatened publicly to "splinter the CIA in a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds"...
JFK actively opposed and exposed secret societies publicly...
rumble.com/...are-opposed-to-secret-societies.html
As a result JFK was assassinated at Dealey Plaza in Dallas, Texas which is the location of the first Masonic temple in Texas. They seem to be on great terms with one another right?
While there have been many freemasons in American government, there have also been many that oppose them.
Have you considered we might be playing that same game again? Why do you think Trump is trying to "drain the swamp"? Why is he exposing the secret societies? Why is he declassifying information? Why is the Debt Clock educating Americans on the debt slavery and trying the Federal Reserve to Freemasons? Why are they promoting one nation under God and the Constitution with money again redeemable for silver via treasury certificates just like JFK? What did Trump put in motion when in office? Why is https://www.usdebtclock.org/ registered for exactly 17 years (17 = Q) and why does it expire on 11.3 which is the end of occupation in The Law of War Manual? Maybe Trump isn't exactly what you think he is...
Why did you think Trump called himself a wartime President and told the world he was fighting the "Invisible Enemy"? Who's the Invisible Enemy? In the Bible the invisible enemy is Satan. Who do Freemasons worship? Satan. What are secret societies? The invisible enemy? The KKK even openly calls themselves the Invisible Empire. The are a Democrat run secret society of freemasons. Many would call them Nazis or National Socialists. If you go to the Masonic Lodge in Washington D. C. there are Nazi symbols all over the place... In the context of the Cold War, who was the invisible enemy? Socialist/Communist... What does Communism do? Communism attacks and tries to eliminate religion/God. Who created socialism and financed socialist revolutions around the world? Freemasons. It seems to me Trump actively declared war on Freemasonry and Satan in front of the entire world... Why do you think they hate him so much and would do anything to stop him?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOe4Ksoa5bk
Yes come to think of it jfk was opposed to to vatican, along with Abraham Lincoln and were both assassinated. Maybe I'm confusing that with the fact that every us president except for martin van Buren are all related by royal blood. Some today that are still alive are somewhat closely related. The usa isn't an democracy, it's a monarchy. Heck from what I've heard if I'm not mistaken when Abraham Lincoln put the usa on Martial Law it stayed that way and under that, no us presidents can be elected till it's over. U. S. presidents after only did emergency powers, lol. It's all a big circus of nonsense, with people voting for no reason. I see all these presidents, dictators, kings whoever in power next to a pope in a picture at some point, whether it be Obama, trump, or Hitler.
Best to understand the Pope and why he does something and whether he and the Catholic Church are trying to take on the sins of others. Overall, most Catholics aren't catholic at all because they live a life of sin that is incompatible with the teachings of The Bible. It is the same for Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons and Christians. For example, you cannot consume porn and claim to be faithful to your faith.
depends, just kuz a person sins doess not mean he stopped believing whatever faith.
@strateguy632 committing a sin to which you confess and repent and living a life of sin are two different things.
I find it exceptionally hard to believe that modern criticism of the Pope could do damage to the Church that the Reformation didn't. It's not like Protestants are being burned at the stake any more (thankfully). And in any case, no, the Pope shouldn't be beyond criticism; there are exactly SEVEN broadly accepted ex cathedra declarations, from just shy of two thousand years of history.
It's very sad that you've afraid to think for yourself. Criticism is needed to keep people in check. And it already drove me away, so what? The truth is the truth. Why's it so important to you that people be Catholic? What do you personally have to gain from it?
If one disagrees with a religious leader, but the leader's position is possible according to the articles of the faith, keep the mouth shut.* If the leader's position is clearly contradictory to the articles of faith**, either speak up verbally or by leaving.
* A good example is various views on eschatology in the churches.
** A good example would be teaching in a church that cheating on your spouse is blessed by God.
kinda like luther objected to pope for the reformation. need to object sometimes.
@strateguy632 that's an understatement, the catholic church put people to death who read the Bible. Whole civilizations wiped out and almost erased from existence.
I don’t understand the Catholic view that the pope is infallible.
If you look at some of the horrible popes in history it is clear to me they are not.
To me it simply doesn’t make sense to see a person as beyond criticism.
I guess the Catholics can’t criticize him unless they go the nominal cultural Catholic or Sedavacantist route.
As per Catholic doctrine, the Pope is infallible only under very specific (and, frankly, poorly defined) circumstances; it's FAR from a universal thing.
Catholics have been criticizing the teachings of Jesus for like a thousand years so it's no surprise.
In what ways?
Are feeding the poor and socialism one and the same?
Socialism is nothing to compliment though. It's been soundly condemned by the Church since at least Pope Leo XIII. And I'm not sure if I've ever heard anyone refer to care for the poor as "socialism".
I neither agree nor disagree about the merits definitin of socialism. The fact is when people attempt to follow the teachings of Jesus, Christians and other catholics call it socialism like its a bad thing, indicating they believe following the teachings of Jesus is a bad thing.
They should. The Pope is just a man like everyone else, and accountability is a two-way street.
yup that is like control. you need to be free to criticize if you think something is wrong. if that is catholic then go free to...
I think Catholics should be free to criticize his actions, as long as they keep respectful of his office and the role the Holy Spirit has chosen him for.
Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
As in, it's the bible and bible only, not the bible and some arrogant men living in the Vatican who think they are God.
You're kidding? I read from the bible directly and to be quite frank the Vatican admits the laws of God they changed. They said, if you are a Christian and worship on a Sunday sabbath "you are ours" if not, you are a seventh day adventist. It's a well known fact that they even said themselves that they changed the "solemnity" of the sabbath from the 7th day to the 1st day of the week. Then there's the deletion of the 2nd commandment and cutting the 10th commandment (thou shalt not covet) in half which is insanly ridiculous. I could go on with the commandments.
Oh and which people specifically came later? Rome put Jesus on the cross by the way, then there's romes paganism from back then that they integrated into Christianity, like mother baby worship for example. there's only opposition to the idolization to worshipping Mary and a baby Jesus. Let's not forget about the REAL 2nd commandment thou Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
But the evil popes of Rome wanted their idolatry and to be worshipped like God I might add, which is why they are known as Antichrists. Murdering sabbath keeping Christians during the dark ages, lying about bible doctrine, coveting God's thrones, changing God's word.
Sean, if you want a helpful dialogue, this is the opposite of that. Ranting like this is almost as bad as yelling at the mirror, thinking you have a captive audience.
Pick one issue, share your perspective, and we can discuss it. We will need to both be genuinely open to be wrong to make it work
They are entitled to their opinion. Anyway I think they are arguing about nonsense.
I couldn't really give a shit! It'd be like Shaggy criticizing Scooby-Doo.
I see it as freedom of thought that every clergyman can be criticized
They’re going to hell along with the Protestants, Jews, Catholic-lites, Muslims, Mormons Atheists…pretty much everyone!
Not for what the bible says...
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
play.google.com/.../details
Well I don't know about "other religions" but what about those that already died? They will rise again. You think they will realize or care that 5,000 years has passed?
As for evidence, like as for the existence of God and the proof the Bible is true, there's tons of evidence, ironically since satan exists and doesn't want people to know he nor God is real and block the truth from mainstream media.
@sean1234 what archeological and scientific proof? Bullet point and I’ll Google search the reality and copy/paste.
Just think tho… in 1000 years, a new civilization digs up a Spider-Man Comic. They read it and confirm New York was real, along with the buildings and historical info in the comic book. Does that mean Spider-Man was real?
What I learned is that people try to interpret things based on their own illogically pre conceived ideas of things. As long as you don't do that, I won't waste my time. I guess I'll waste time anyways.
100 - Genesis Conflict - Walter Veith
https://youtu.be/qMU1soRrtJk?si=B-Ag8mgJgDdw1sBX ... that is only the 1st episode.
Hydroplate Theory episodes 1-6 combined
https://youtu.be/4hhE6tzJR_c?si=rEHI69TdUnxjOAi5
Bullet point a whole lifetime of lies? This is the best I can do.
@sean1234 these are stupidest things I’ve ever seen. You have blinders on my man.
This one debunked. Your genesis thing isn’t because it’s based on translated words from the Bible and has no actual evidence.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hydroplate_theory
You remind me of the people that saw the plagues of Egypt, saw God part the Red sea, Exodus 13:21
And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night... and they still didn't believe 🤣
Let me put it another way. You look on the cigarette package : surgeon General warning: smoking causes lung cancer, emphysema, heart disease and might complicate pregnancy.
They read it, yet smoke it? Are they stupid are just not care about the truth? It's the same thing. Proof in their face, yet truth denied. Those links especially Genesis Conflict, Walter veith gives proof of why evolution is a fraud and why creationism and the bible is not. When you look into things, you are not supposed to do research with your preconceived ideas of things that might be wrong.
Yeah, but which of those "multiple sources" is "real" and not an almost religious belief in itself? I find that most people only think they know what they are talking about. I mean, let's look at health, naturopathic vs. conventional doctors, which ones are more popular? Which ones have the healthiest patients? Which ones are virtually seen as crazy witch doctors? Multiple sources shows one is the only way to go, yet have no cures to virtually all diseases and illnesses, lol.
@sean1234 See this is basic logical fallacy. You go with what has the most facts. The only biblical fact is…there’s a Bible. Supposedly “written” 2000ish years ago. there's evidence of the councils of Nicae that determined which books would be included in the “Bible”.
Same with medicine. Take the Covid vaccine. Go with the facts. Communities with more vaccinations = less Covid. Less vaxxes = Covid spikes. You can’t get around that.
That's only your own religious belief. You make it sound like the book of genesis for instance wasn't written 3600ish years ago. 2ndly I've never met a person who didn't take the covid vaccine to get covid here in missouri, its like none of that stuff existed and the ones i heard of almost died from taking it. Saying that pcr covid test is not accurate is an understatement, the guy who invented it said it was innaccurate himself Carry mullis.
@sean1234 there’s your problem. “I don’t know anyone” is your evidence? Serisouly?
I will spell it out again. You go with the facts. And you can’t get around the fact that Covid vaxxes reduced Covid deaths. PERIOD.
Yeah you could test positive. But it’s nothing. Nowhere near lethal. Probably why religious communities are hardest hit by Covid.
And yeah, facts suggest the old testiment (ie, Torah) was written around then. Only fact you have. Not that genesis is true (it’s not). Nor are there any corroborations of the magical stories in either testament.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. But I’m just asking for a little bit…and you got nothing.
Pope is a man-made concept. Who gives a fuck !!!
Criticizing Pope Francis specifically is legitimate. That’s how I see it
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