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A look at the Men's Rights Movement (MRM) (Page 3)
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I actually dislike MRMs as much as I dislike Feminism. However it is very easy to tell you are a feminist. This article is extremely biased. If you want to be taken seriously explore things with an open mind.
Hah hah, nice try. I'm actually not a feminist. Would you like me to call you an MRAs? This can go both ways.
Well that would be the typical feminist reaction, perhaps misogynist while you are at it? If you are indeed not a feminist why did you write this in such a bias fashion? I can feel you hatred in the words.
So by your logic the typical MRA reaction is to call women who don't agree with them feminist? Interesting. I honestly don't care if you think I'm a feminist or not. If that is how you rationalize people with differing points then continue on that path. How is this myTake bias? Because I talked about what they do?
If she says she's not a feminist, I doubt she is. A feminist would say she was and probably try and prove you wrong. As I am here doing. why do you think the article is biased exactly? Specific examples?
No. I really don't have time to dissect each paragraph and comment here. How about you used a false statistic that only exists on feminism sites or in feminism articles? 2-8% of reported rapes are false. No. 2-8% are PROVEN false and criminal charges are laid against the person who reported. This gives no indication of how many are actually false, only what is proven. Only 33% of rape charges got to court and are proven to be rape. So if I used the EXACT same logic feminists use with the 2-8% I could say 67% of rapes accusations are false. There would be absolutely no difference. The exact same logic is being applied.
But you know what? That is absolutely ridiculous. People who have been raped are traumatized, the first instinct is to shower then by the time they decide to tell someone it could be days later and nearly impossible to prove. So just because only 33% of rapists are convicted does NOT mean 67% are false. i can see that. Can you see 2-8% being wrong?
So The Washington Post is no a feminist website? You don't want to dissect the myTake because it's easier to copy and paste information from another source to go against the False Rape Reporting section. Also I was mistaken with the percentage. It's actually 2-10%. However, it's clear you have a huge chip on your shoulder about the feminist movement based on your responses. You are clearly biased and stated you dislike the MRM to hide this fact.
A feminist nevers speaks with an open mind and alway's biased.
@TimeSplitters123 sounds more like MRA and MGTOW mentality.
I don't know about y'all but i am a male and i support feminism, which is simply a fight for female's rights, if it is something else like not giving men their rights... etc then this isn't feminism it is just some angry people who aren't even thinking
It's nice to think "This isn't feminism." But as a feminist I want you to realize that isn't true.
Feminism isn't a benevolent, can-do-no-wrong movement. There are branches of feminism I definitely do not support, and a few that conflict others, like separatist feminism and equality feminism. One states that men and women should be separated because they're too different. Another that they are far more similar.
They're still feminism. You don't get to say they aren't. Acknowledge them, and assure others you do not believe in that part of feminism. That feminism isn't a single, non-conflicting ideology.
You won't be able to convince everyone, but at least you'll look a lot more aware than others.
Try studying feminism a little bit deeper. The good and the bad.
I am not trying to convince anyone at all, i believe feminism is right and the feminism that i define , you choose to define it like this, and i choose to define it as a movement for female rights to make them equal to men since they aren't.
Sounds like willful ignorance to me.
If you actually want to help and support feminism, be ready to take it for the good and the bad. Cause telling everyone feminism is super great and the best thing since sliced bread; while they see all these radicals running amok; you're gonna get some pushback.
Stop saying "that isn't feminism" because it is feminism.
You just don't support that ideology, you support a different form of feminism. But you don't get to say it's not feminism.
You can certainly say "That is feminism, but it's not the feminism I follow." And appear far less ignorant.
It also stops people from painting you with this broad sweeping brush.
It lets people know that feminism isn't some clear, clean cut thing.
It's messy and disjointed and full of tons of ideologies. But there's parts that make sense and should be followed.
@SomeOtherGuy I respect your opinion, but sir if you go check the definition of feminism in the dictionary it says ": the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities
: organized activity in support of women's rights and interests" or
1
: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2
: organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests
and i support all of these definitions, therefore ANYTHING else is other forms of feminism and not what i belief in, and all other things aren't even in the dictionary so they aren't even feminism.
Just like hedonism is the maximization of pleasure and the elimination of pain, but you can find a stark contrast between standard Hedonism and the more gnostic Epicurian Hedonism?
Just because you have the dictionary definition doesn't mean you understand it.
"the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men."
The issue you face is the definition of equality. In terms of social science it is a very messy, difficult ideal to execute. That is why we have branching philosophies in feminism.
Your introductory understanding of feminism isn't about to impress me. Nor is it something I haven't heard before.
Don't support a cause if you are going to be ignorant towards it. Consider studying different parts of feminism.
https://www.uah.edu/woolf/feminism_kinds.htm - Just to start.
en.wikipedia.org/.../Feminist_movements_and_ideologies - More.
Feminism is a movement. It is not confined to a simple definition.
You use the same ignorance anti-feminists use to cut feminism down. The same you use to try to bring it up.
Mate i am not trying to "impress" you, cause honestly i could care less, you won't impress me either i have heard all of these arguments from before. Let's just say you won't convince me, and i won't convince you either. To each their beliefs. I stand my grounds i support this movement for multiple reasons, and you don't for your own reasons, and i respect this.
You seem to think I do not support feminism. Again, you are wrong. I support feminism. There are many issues in feminism that need to be addressed and feminism works to address them in a way that any other group could not. And they are valid and important issues.
But I am not about to sit here and say that feminism is all good. Nor will I dismiss the parts of feminism I do not like. I fully acknowledge and accept those parts of feminism because if I don't, I'm no better than a radical MRA.
If I sat here, saying that isn't feminism, when it has been acknowledged by feminist movement leaders as a form of feminism, I am dismissing concerns that a no longer necessary agenda exists in feminism. If you cannot police your own ranks the whole thing will collapse and whatever good would come from following feminism will fail.
I acknowledge it because I want to see the best of feminism. Because the radicals stir up problems and those problems detract from real issues.
What I don't understand is why MRAs believe that feminists aren't concerned with father's rights and male abuse victims. The dismantling of rigid gender roles would go a very long way to removing those issues.
I agree. Feminism does touch on those issues. But it cannot illuminate and explore them to the depth and breadth needed to equalize society and progress it.
If it did, it would run the risk of men hijacking feminism.
There needs to be a clear, level headed dialogue between the moderates within both groups on making these things happen for the progression of society.
@SomeOtherGuy totally. Real, lasting change comes from dialogue between the moderates of any movement. Father's rights are so important (though I don't agree with men pressuring women into getting abortions to avoid paying child support. That's incredibly selfish, imo).
Abortion and custody is one of the biggest gray areas I've found. The rights to a child and the rights to your own body are a very messy, blurry, ugly area.
@SomeOtherGuy totally agree. I'm glad I'm not a lawyer. Engineering is a lot more cut and dried, comparatively.
NOW lobbying against joint custody.
MRMs and Feminists are literally the same.
Both want to be the best victim.
Well said.
This site would be so much better if we just dropped all the feminist/MRM talk.
Everyone has problems so everyone needs to get over it.
I agree but that won't happen. I've learned that this is a place for people to come and vent.
Problems are meant to be discussed. Not forgotten!
Maybe not discussed here if that's what you mean.
I too wish the feminism MRA discussions would just stop. But in the end, the influences of feminism and male rights somehow have their way of distorting the perceptions of dating ethics. In some instances it's tough to tell the difference between chivalry and sexism.
I would have agree with the MRM in all the instances you mentioned.
Especially with fathers rights, and rape allegations, woman are DRASTICALLY favored over men.
I dont know about divorce.
I would also like to bring up the gental mutilation thing [circumcision]
Also the domestic violence thing.
Google some "what would you do" episodes and type shows like that.
. there's been a few where a actor couple fights in public, people jump to the womans help when the man is beating her. But laugh and cheer when the woman is beating the man.
That makes me sick to my stomach
As somebody who does see how society has its own sexism against men, I do have to say that I'm still not really a MRA, because it isn't any different than feminism. Your post is clearly an anti-MRA attitude, and you must think that feminism is the answer to the world's problems. What a joke
I love how before some of the users knock the myTake they have to state they aren't an MRA. Hmm...
That's what makes you even more ignorant. A guy can be against sexism of his gender and still not be an MRA. You are someone who obviously thinks in absolutes, and is obviously in support of the failure of feminism, while trying to demonize MRAs. Calling the kettle black.
Ignorance is bliss in your case. However, your choice of words are your downfall and work against you since you assume quite a bit. You got your feelings hurt and the only way to make yourself feel better is to spout MRA rhetoric.
You sound stupid trying to have a comeback to make yourself feel better. You just WISH I hurt. Shit like this from females like you only entertains me.
A comeback? Just summing up what you've wrote. This coming from someone who engages in name calling and dismissingredients bad behavior because you yourself engage in it.
Dismissing*
MRA's are not far better known for campaigning against feminism... they campaign for men's rights. Like equal custody and fairness in rape claims. It's fight against feminism happens because feminism does whatever it can to attack men's rights and therefore MRA's will shut down (quite effectively) any and all feminist tirades.
Attacking feminism is no different than attack any hate group. MRA's do not "hate women" or fight against women's rights, they simply refuse to allow the hate group to shut down their ability to stand up with it's bullying tactics and shaming campaigns.
You feminists are the biggest hypocrites in the history of humanity.
How telling it is that you complain incessantly that feminism is judged based on the actions of "a few extreme feminazis" and yet you do exactly the same thing when talking about MRAs.
You are completely ignorant about what the men's rights movement is and what it stands for. And YOU are precisely the reason so few people support feminism anymore.
Actually I consider myself a feminist, though probably not the ones you're use to. I also acknowledge and agree with a lot of problems men face. I believe in progressing societies understanding of men and I'm all for giving them equal consideration in all cases of domestic violence, rape, custody and divorce settlements. I'm also for men and women sharing responsibilities based on their preferences in the dating arena. Want something traditional? Go for it, and don't be ashamed. Want to go dutch? Do it, and don't feel ashamed. Want the woman to pay? Have at it, and don't feel ashamed.
I'm hesitant to join MRAs though, because I walk into their spaces and I see a lot of hatred for women, and I walk right the fuck back out. I do the same for the radical feminist spaces.
It's unfortunate, because feminism was developed with a small, simple idea in mind. It wasn't designed to handle male issues that have arisen due to females gaining prevalence in society. That's something that is obvious now, but wasn't obvious back in the early 1900s when feminism began.
However, if issues revolving around males are not addressed, feminism and female rights cannot possibly progress. If we want progress, there needs to be work done to give men consideration they need to make the sexes equal.
Feminism isn't equipped to do that.
But MRAs and MGTOWs have a very toxic, women/gay hating environment that is more anti-feminist than male-progressive.
How am I a hypocrite if I'm not a feminist? Also I provided this myTake as a response to a few MRAs on this site who claim the MRM is perfect and has no radicals. Now we're here and your mad because I provided a glimpse at the MRM. My next myTake (which you won't like either) will go further as to why so few people support the MRM.
I don't know about MRM, but I have a few things to say.
Alimony is BS.
Parental rights are sexist. An involved father can't be there for his kids because the law thinks that the mother is a better choice and has to be PROVE that she is unfit to have custody. He has to pay for the children he barely sees.
Well, the woman spends almost a year going through the sorrows and pain of pregnancy and then gives horrific birth that permanently damages her body... It's understandable why the judge wouldn't take away her babies and give them to the dad who did nothing but f*ck her and enjoy it.
@ALittleBlondeGirl
I said involved as in there from beginning to now, without faltering. If all things are equal and the mother is better suited to take care of the children, then so be it. They almost always give children to mom because she's a woman and assumed to be motherly. That's not always true.
My boss is a single dad and raised his daughter well.
The mother is alive, well and doing ok, so explain why doesn't have her child?
"the woman spends almost a year going through the sorrows and pain of pregnancy
I know some pregnant women, and while it is a pain, they loved carrying and having their baby. Delivering is hit or miss. lol.
"then gives horrific birth that permanently damages her body"
not true, or else there would be no second child. Apparently, she gets back
Also, women enjoy sex too, hopefully, you'll understand on day.
My mother admitted that the body never completely heals. It's ruined forever.
Just because she got pregnant a second time, does not mean she has the same pre pregnancy/birth body. How ignorant of you.
Yes, some women enjoy sex. Though, that's NOT the point. It's the fact that the man didn't have to suffer to have a baby like women do. The way a woman becomes a mother, is by enduring a long distressing pregnancy and agonizing birth.
The way a man becomes a father is by having enjoyable sex. So you see, that's not an equal trade. Women get the raw end of the deal and that's why the court won't separate a mother from her baby unless she can't financially support them.
Someday, you'll understand. Like, when you reincarnate into a female or into someone with a heart.
@ALittleBlondeGirl Nobody forced the women to get pregnant, she could have taken the pill or something.
Also, there are enough "fathers" who are legally the father of a child, even though it wasn't the result of sex with their wife, considering that, at least in Germany, the father of a child is whoever is married to the women at the time of the child's birth.
@ALittleBlondeGirl Ok, kiddo.
https://cdn.meme.am/instances/55519221.jpg
@inneedofaname "Nobody forced the women to get pregnant"
Have you ever heard of rape?
"she could have taken the pill"
Why is it that sexist men force women take all the responsibilities of reproduction? Why don't YOU wear a condom? Oh, but it doesn't "feel as good" and your selfish desire for pleasure needs to met, right? You act like taking birth control is easy.
Birth control pills increase the risk of heart attacks, cervical cancer, stroke and blood clots which can be fatal.
Birth control pills also increase blood pressure and can worsen migraines. Other side effects include nausea and bloating. Plus, there’s an increased risk of benign liver tumors or liver cancer. Birth control pills may lead to faster formation of gallstones.
Cramping, painful and irregular periods are also a product of taking birth control pills. Mood swings are inflicted from birth control, as well.
The consumption of birth control pills even increase your chances of developing breast cancer.
@inneedofaname Also, sick women can't even take antibiotics and the pill simultaneously because the antibiotics interfere with the pill. Women who suffer from seizures also cannot take birth control, as their seizure medication disrupts the pill as well. In fact, many medications interfere with the pill and a lot of women aren't even aware of this. Even some herbs such as St. John's wort decreases the sufficiency of birth control.
Birth control pills create nutrient deficiencies which cause weight gain, fluid retention, mood changes, depression and even heart disease.
@inneedofaname The pill contributes to yeast overgrowth. Symptoms ranging from migraines to infertility, endometriosis, psoriasis, PMS, depression, fibromyalgia, digestive disorders and many other seemingly unrelated health problems have been attributed to yeast overgrowth. And evidence-based results show that treating the yeast overgrowth often alleviates these symptoms. The use of birth control pills is a major risk factor for developing yeast overgrowth because it promotes estrogen dominance. Because birth control pills give a woman's hormonal system a continual stream of estrogen, an imbalance is created.
In addition to all this misery, the continuous use of birth control pills like the new no-period pill has not been sufficiently studied. Women who use these methods are the "test subjects," if you will, for an ongoing experiment. We have no idea what the long-term effects of daily hormones will do to fertility or other aspects of our health.
@inneedofaname On top of everything, women are forced to receive an invasive examination to receive birth control pills.
With all the unhealthy side effects, pain and misery from birth control pills, misogynists like yourself are still convinced that women should have to consume them instead of men taking responsibility for their sperm and preventing getting women pregnant. Because you know, whatever makes the MAN happy..
The worst part of it all, is that birth control pills aren't even fully effective. A woman can still get pregnant even while on the pill. So, she suffers from all the negative side effects of the pill for nothing.
@ALittleBlondeGirl I don't have the time to read all that stuff,
all I have to say is that considering the legal effects of a child for a man, it's more of a problem to us than to women, who have always "suffered" from pregnancy, the most natural thing there is.
@inneedofaname Periods, pregnancy and birth being natural doesn't make it any less painful or life threatening. Many women have died during pregnancy and birth.
You insensitive jerk. Too lazy to even read the shit women go through. And, you expect me to take you seriously. Pfft.
@ALittleBlondeGirl Seriously, who are you mad at?
Not mad. Just disappointed.
@ALittleBlondeGirl Doesn't sound like that.
Anyway, my point is still, if all things are equal, fathers should be considered for custody.
The law says it is, but still.
That's the point. Things will never be equal. Men will never have to go through pregnancy or give birth. Men should only receive custody if the mother is financially, mentally, or physically unstable.
Imagine this, you spend nine months building a house and going through pain every day to get this house constructed. The last day of building being the most agonizing and feeling the worst pain in your life that permanently damages your body.
Finally, after almost a year of pain and sacrificing your body, you have your house. But before you even get to go inside, the court orders that the house be given to the guy that lent you a hammer to build the house with.
You did all of that hard work, went through so much pain and sacrificed everything so that someone else that did absolutely nothing can take it away from you.
@ALittleBlondeGirl Some go through all that and don't give a fuck about the house. Would you give that house to someone who will destroy it?
No one cares about what people go through in child custody. Only the custody of the child, if one parent is unfit, the child should go to the other. If both are unfit, the child should go to none.
Also, it takes two to make a baby. If the father is involved, and takes care of mother and child, then what's the problem?
Women need help in the 3rd trimester, since it gets difficult. Who is there to help?
I agree. But, if the mother is perfectly capable of taking care of her babies, they should not be taken away from her.
My sister went through Hell with being forced to go to her father's house because he managed to get half custody. She was a little girl and he made her watch porn, do hardcore drugs like crack + cocaine and he even molested her.
With that being said, these custody issues feel more personal and strike a nerve with me because of what my sister went through. She said her life is ruined and I cry for her from time to time.
A child should not be given to a man just because he shot his load inside the mother and got her pregnant.
@ALittleBlondeGirl With all respect to you and your family, your father's an asshole.
Moving on, if both parents are capable, then I say joint custody.
Eh.. Keep in mind about the metaphor about the house building.. The one who puts in more work is more entitled. The mother should get a bit more custody. And, if the child needs to be breast fed, the guy is just going to wait until the kid gets older.
@ALittleBlondeGirl " the guy is just going to wait until the kid gets older."
There is formula. It works well. Every 4 hours for a newborn until 6 months. Then they can start to eat food.
Back to the house, no one builds it. It builds itself! You just have to live your daily lives.
Back to parenting, only thing both parents did to make the baby... was each other. Yes, it gets inconvenient for the mother, but that's the choice she has made as well as the father.
Also, once the child is born, his/her welfare is important.
Side-question: should a surrogate mother (a woman who carries someone else's baby) get rights to take care of the child since she carried it? If so, why?
You're wrong. A woman does "choose" to get pregnant. Our bodies force us to carry babies. There's no consent whatsoever.
A surrogate on the other hand, willfully agrees to be impregnated. That Sir, is the difference.
@ALittleBlondeGirl "You're wrong. A woman does "choose" to get pregnant. Our bodies force us to carry babies. There's no consent whatsoever."
If you have consensual sex, you are making a choice to become a parent, EVERY TIME!! If you do not want to be a parent, don't have sex. Very simple logic.
Are you that ignorant that you seriously think that everyone that has sex is trying to have a baby?
Grow the fuck up and get out of here. Consenting to sex is NOT consenting to pregnancy. In case you haven't noticed, it's very much possible to have sex and not get pregnant. Sex does not equal pregnancy.
Couples have sex as a way to bond. People have sex because it feels good. A woman should be able to have sex without being punished with pregnancy and birth.
Men don't have to suffer any of the reproductive consequences of sex. Neither should women.
Women agree to have sex. They do not agree for you to break the condom, put it on wrong, precum, or have their birth control pills fail.
I feel sorry for your mom because her birth control obviously failed.
Your brain is a product of when plan b sort of works.
@ALittleBlondeGirl Never said that, it's just that it's generally unfair for a man to be a father considering he has to suffer from manmade feminazi bullshit written down in laws.
@ALittleBlondeGirl your house analogy is total bullshit, your body's use is to carry out children. And damn, you're fucking 18 you haven't even been pregnant so far and with your attitude you likely never willl be.
@inneedofaname Pfft, that's a compliment.
If anything, your misogynistic views are bullshit.
Guess what, laws AREN'T written by women. The majority of the government is made up of men.
So, go ahead and cry "sexism" all you want but you'll never experience REAL sexism until you've lived the life of a female.
@ALittleBlondeGirl Men who don't have the guts to be themselves and privilege women.
Your misandric crap starts pissing me off. I don't even understand how you can dare to decide what real sexism is and what it's not.
@ALittleBlondeGirl Wow, I can see the apple didn't fall too far from the tree.
Good luck with yourself.
@inneedofaname Dude, don't waste your intelligence. She's a troll.
I am on the opinion owners side. If the mother in a situation is unfit for raising a child, sometimes she still gets custody. Who says mothers dont abuse their children or molest them too? I know many women who really should have let the father have the children. It is rare that a man has full custody of the child when he doesn't deserve it, it really has to be because the women was known to be mentally physically or emotionally abusive, etc. I say if the man is more qualified for raising this child, then let him have the child, and vice versa. If the woman is more qualified, let her have the child. The problem is how the court of law is going to determine that.
There is too much shit that want to put men and women against each other, like this for example. Why can't people just agree men and women should have the same rights and possibilities?
Also personally I don't feel the need to label myself anything or relate myself to a group of people like mrm, feminism or whatever it might be, if someone bring up a relevant issue, great I'll support it and if they don't I simply don't care
I remember reading about 1st and 2nd wave feminist in school. And how they would say gender is a social constrict its not real and that the male and female brain really aren't that different. and this was years ago before the 70's. Funny nueroscience has proven this YET it is society who still refers to people as a gender and thinks our brains are that different.
Actually neuroscience has in fact shown our brains are completely different, in fact geneticly, biochemicly, anatomicly and neurostructurally different. Those same people who claim gender is a social construct destroyed a mans life in the attempt to prove that (they merely proved themselves wrong.) www.psychologytoday.com/.../brain-differences-between-genders
www.webmd.com/.../how-male-female-brains-differ
science.howstuffworks.com/.../...erent-brains1.htm
https://www.netnanny.com/learn_center/article/165/
geneticly the difference between men and women is the same as between a human and chimpanzee:
https://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask38
www.rense.com/.../galaxyofgeneticdifferences.htm
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3030621/
as for the terrible experiment done: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
www.bbc.co.uk/.../dr_money_prog_summary.shtml
Also the existence of transgender people completelly destroyes that presumption as they are by definition people who are raised to act and behave as one gender as dictated by society yet innatley feel they are the opposite gender which is impossible if gender is a social construct.
@hellionthesage... I think you should look at science done on the last year. Have you heard of that famous neuroscientist from is real who said their isn't a real difference between the brains of the sexes? We have the basic structure of our sex and the festival unisex. My bff is trans their was a lot of them upset about it because they said trans brains are not what they identified with and that gender is not inherently programmed but learned so this only reaffirmed gender dysphora being a mental illness , I'd look it up if I was you.
From Isreal
@hellionthesage First article is by a behavioral health counselor who specializes in drug addiction. While he certainly knows more and has studied more than me, I would not necessarily call him an authority on the subject.
Another issue with his article is the misconception that we have 5 senses. Science has proven we have far more, around 20ish.
I've studied the difference in female and male brains through various scientific articles that look at the brain. There is a difference, but it accounts for maybe 5-10% of a variance between male and female behavior.
A few of the articles pointed out how men and women may process information differently, but not what that means for our behavior.
As well, some of the articles only focused on early development, where men and women differ the most. But science has shown that gap closes as we age.
@SomeOtherGuy Yea, but Its 2016, in November the Israeli neuroscientist research came out. Nuerocience cannot be wrong, it literally sees the brain like no one has before. So, old articles don't withstand to knew science. sorry your not going to convince me
Also the article on chimpanzees begins with a false idea already. The person is mixing up biology drastically.
Some of these articles, while credible sites, are not exactly credible sources, and are more like opinion pieces or observation pieces.
Also yes, current information is always better. Social science and psychology are not like other sciences. The information becomes quickly outdated, and what was once a valid argument can be dismissed with new findings rather quickly.
Anyways, yes, from a young age men and women are different. But they're far more alike than they are different.
This differing viewpoint does have names though. Separatists and Equalists. Because of the messiness of social studies, these two branches of thought are still being explored to determine which holds the most weight.
With all due respect, one guy claiming something as true vs. everything else presented by neurologist around the globe (ie scientific consensus) geneticist biochemist and basic observations is not a cogent argument. Your belief is, and I mean no disrespect by this, irrelevent to the fact that their is a distinct difference as proven by the existence of transexuals, phsycological experimentation, and all hard scientific data. You wanting something to be true is not the same as it being true. This is a problem most have ie they believe something because they want it to be true not because its logical.
@SomeOtherGuy yes its a phycologist, thats why I presented multiple links so that one cannot claim that a single source is ignorable simply because of something of that nature. So what of all the other articles/sources presented? (I presented four just speaking of the neurological differences, I can give you more if you like.) What of the genetic variances as well, again showing an extreme difference between men and women, are you disregarding those sources (I gave three, one from the national institute for health, again I can give more). What of the phsycological experiment that clearly shows that attempting to create a gender throught social pressure as is being claimed, failed out right and to a catastrophic degree. Again I linked to the incident. Or again, transexualism, one cannot claim that its a social construct while maintainging that transexualism exists without an extreme degree of cognitive dissonance. Claiming having studied the subject doesn't mean anything, evidence does.
@hellionthesage Again, you presented opinion pieces. Again, the sites are credible but the sources from those sites are not. They're opinion pieces from people who aren't in the field. It's a good case of appeal to authority.
I've looked into a few papers and found data that emphasizes similarities. I've also read papers that point out the differences between men and women. Those differences account for a difference in learning, health, and minor differences in perception.
But they have not ever and will never account for more than a 5-10% difference in behavior of men and women. And that behavior margin will never have a significant, noticeable baring on morality, wants, or needs of men or women. No matter how much you want that to be true.
The reason is that we are human beings. A single species. You don't look at a male bear and then a female bear and loudly proclaim "THAT FEMALE BEAR isn't A BEAR AT ALL!"
Yet you want to try to do that with women?
Instead of trying to simply study the difference between men and women try studying the similarity we share as human beings. What the human collective has in common with one another. You will find that we are not as different as you think.
No one who has an inkling of knowledge in neuroscience can deny a difference between men and women. But that difference isn't significant to our behavior. It also is insignificant to how we act in society. It's main significance is in relation to our learning and health.
Again, study the similarities that human beings have. Society becomes a lot more interesting when you remove roles that were archaically necessary for survival and allow independence of each person in it.
@SomeOtherGuy The national institute for health is an opinoin piece? Physcologist and neurologist are not credible sources? With all due respect you need to actually prove those points with facts. Making a claim and proving it are two different things. I stated that their is a difference in brain structure then presented sources from neurologist, national health organizations to back that up. You said its an opinion piece and that you apparently know best but at no point presented any information that actually backs up your claims or disprove mine or my sources. Thats not an argument. I don't care about the similarities of men and women, that was not the statement made. The statement made was that we where identical and that is patently false. Your statements have not been backed by hard science or even basic observations, and in fact while I readily sited multiple sources for each point I made you sited none.
@SomeOtherGuy I stated exactly what hard science has proven multiple times among peer reviewed studies, I have presented evidence that shows impiricly that the claim you and anonymous have made are provably false. You make statements based off of emotional responses and unfounded opinions/ideas. If you have an argument by all means prove it, with evidence as I have done, not dismissals and ignorance. At no point did I say women where not humans, the fact that you would claim such is rather evident of your bias. By the definition of human that you falsly attribute to me, men would not be human either. Their is variation among genders because of the tasks we do, like in every species. Gender roles are biological, this is fact stop trying to deny what is already solidly proven it will get you no where. An argument is only as good as the evidence used to back it, so far you have presented nothing ergo your argument is not a good one, if it can be called an argument at all.
@hellionthesage I'll go over this with you, and I will explain it once more in clear terms.
Several of the pieces you linked were non-credible opinion pieces from people not in the field.
I will give you this, you did bring up more scholarly articles that talked about chromosomes and health. But NOWHERE in those pieces did they talk about major differences between men and women's behavior, morality, or a drive towards any certain role in society.
The scholarly articles talked about differences in health and disorders. I could have told you that men are more prone to X disease and women are more prone to Y disease. Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of health can tell you that. The same goes for neurological disorders.
And anyone with a starting understanding of child development can tell you that young, developing females and males learn differently. However, those begin to even out as the sexes get older.
But that does not, in any significant way, account for a difference in the way women act, feel, react, bond, or perceive their surroundings.
And none of the scholarly pieces that you presented, the ones that weren't opinion pieces, states that they do.
Again, because you need to research humanity and what our similarities are as a human species. You need to fully comprehend how we are alike before you can begin to understand how we are different.
I've read plenty of articles. I've done the research. I know what these articles say, and they're true. I'm not discrediting the scholarly articles pointing to men having different health concerns than women or the articles pointing out a difference in female and male learning patterns.
I am telling you, they probably do not mean what you think they mean.
Gender roles are not assigned at birth.
You seem to have this major delusion that women have banana shaped brains and men have pear shaped brains...
Also, you are aware that gender dysphoria isn't about gender roles. It's about comfort in one's own body, comfort with puberty and comfort with their genitals.
It isn't about what role they want to play in society, it is completely about their physical body. It's about a sense of identity with a certain sex, not the role or position that sex plays in society.
You also fail to include non-comforming genders, such as genderqueer, which ignore gender roles completely and comfortably.
Pointing out gender dysphoria may seem like a superficial way to highlight gender constructs, but it is not a solid argument for the reason I said earlier. Transexuality and gender dysphoria isn't about roles, it's about your body.
You wanna know the reason I'm not pulling articles out and dropping them here? Because finding a credible article that clearly states men and women are similar or men and women are different is a difficult task.
I can find a giant slog of pieces that state the health differences of men and women or the differences in the early stages or learning and development for women. I can bring you a million pieces that say women get periods and men don't. That women can't get prostate cancer but men can. That genetically men are more susceptible to X disease/disorder over women.
Great!
Again, that does not point to a difference in the way women and men behave. Not in any way that can be called significant. It does not point to a difference in morals or beliefs or even draw a clear line in what roles men and women go for.
I'm sorry, but the pieces you provided do not do this.
Rather, we are talking about separatist and equalist philosophies.
I'll be level with you, one of the most credible sources you provided actually does more to back up extremist feminist claims against males if you truly believe these resources explain a significant margin of difference between men and women.
Choose your next wording carefully.
@hellionthesage
@SomeOtherGuy Once again, you provide no argument and no evidence. Explain how the national institute for health is not a credible sources? Explain how measurable data given by proffesionals ie neurologist, biologists and geneticist proven through peer reviewed studies ie being replicable is opinion? here is yet another link: www.pnas.org/.../823.abstract?tab=author-info
It really isn't hard to find data, this is the information age, we have google, we have more information at our finger tips then a library could ever hold so their is no excuse for why you are not providing evidence of any kind. Your argument is an opinoin (def. a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.) and this is provable as you have yet to provide evidence and have dismissed all scientific data ie you have chosen to ignore the overwhelming evidence purely because it does not match your world view. Now, no one said anything about morality or any thing else I stated physiological differences are provable, gender
@SomeOtherGuy identity is provably biological in nature. We know that men and women choose differently like career paths, here is the data: https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.pdf
www.themandarin.com.au/.../3.jpg
genderequality.gov.ky/.../...0in%20occupations.bmp
The data shows a split in occupation across the board, why would you then turn around and claim their is no differences? If you make a claim you must be able to verify it with a reliable source (at this point I would take any source) The fact is you continue to disagree with what hard data says but provide no reason for your stance other then you simply don't like what your hearing. Again I am open to discussion, so long as you provide evidence for your claims. You haven't. As for backing up feminist claims, how so? Again you don't actually clarify anything you simply repeat that it is wrong because. . . and thats where you leave it, without reason. I do not need to choose my words carefully because I speak the truth, thats all I need to do, and is what I will continue to do. I do not believe because I like it, I believe because its true.
@SomeOtherGuy So my argument still stands, and my counter to what ever it is you are trying to say (I can't say its an argument because you haven't argued anything) is the same, evidence. Give evidence to your claims and I will listen, otherwise you are wasting both of our time.
@hellionthesage Dude. For the love of all that is right and holy and good on this green earth, stop linking me articles that already affirm something I already know. Just stop. STOP! You are coming off dulllllllll.
I am 1000% aware that men and women youth not only learn differently, but have a difference in motor and spacial skills and woman in social cognition and memory. I fucking study game development, this is not news to me.
I'm aware of the health differences and risk differences between men and women due to genetic structure.
I already pointed out a handful of your pieces were not as credible as you had been leading on. I pointed out why. I would hope you're wise enough to go over your links and figure out which ones I was pointing out.
I am comfortable with what you are telling me because I know what it is actually pointing out. And it's not the conclusion you keep coming to.
@SomeOtherGuy So you know that men and women are different, my entire point, despite the fact that you where telling me that they where not moments before? You did not explain anything at any point in time that was the problem. You provided no evidence you said I was wrong because you read some studies that you couldn't be bothered to link to because it was hard, and by extention continued to provide no links, no sources no evdence for your “argument”. So what conclusion am I “coming too” exactly? You seem to no an awful lot about what I think despite seemingly not understanding anything that I am talking about. And again saying something is wrong is different then proving it wrong. You know, evidence and all, which you still haven't provided.
@hellionthesage Okay, lets sit down and have a pow-wow here. I've realized over the last day that I do not actually know for sure what you're saying.
Men and women are indeed different. Yes, we have continually agreed here with the studies provided. I have pointed out what differences the articles are referring to. But we've obviously had this whole bickering thing going on so we're just spiraling into this social phenomenon of You vs Me without looking at the issue and determing if we actually agree or disagree.
Basically, we're perpetuating an argument for the sake of perpetuating an argument. For all we know, we could be agreeing, but we have been fighting so vehemently that we fear agreeing will mean defeat, even if we're both coming to the same conclusion.
Rational, logical people who practice humility have probably seen this social phenomenon before.
Anyways, I'll ask you a question to determine how different our conclusions are.
When it comes to binary, heterosexual male and female behavior and gender constructs, how large of a margin do you feel these findings prove, and what are those major differences?
Do you believe those are heavily perpetuated by society, and can thus be fixed in a healthy way by society, or do you believe men and women's differences are permanently ingrained?
By the way one of the articles you posted noted a difference in aggression between men and women.
If you are truly claiming that men and women share large differences in their behavior and the way they act in society due to their genetic disposition, you have given radical feminists a great reason for teaching men not to be rape-machine mass-murderers who beat the people they're dating.
Which is why I wanted you to watch your wording carefully and be careful about the conclusion you are drawing from the scholarly articles.
Let me clarify some of that too. Radical feminists is too broad. Lesbian Separatist Feminists.
They've claimed before, using the same studies and logic you are espousing, that men need to be taught not to beat their partners, rape others, and murder and assault other men and women.
Seeing as how I find that claim degrading, but you have been making some damn good claims in favor of that viewpoint, especially referencing that article, I felt compelled to warn you how you continue to draw your conclusion.
It's also a reason I feel deeply compelled to disagree with your viewpoint.
Your viewpoint is very separatist.
"When it comes to binary, heterosexual male and female behavior and gender constructs, how large of a margin do you feel these findings prove, and what are those major differences?
Do you believe those are heavily perpetuated by society, and can thus be fixed in a healthy way by society, or do you believe men and women's differences are permanently ingrained?"
...(-_-;)...
@SomeOtherGuy , @hellionthesage :
In your opinion, which has the most influence on gender: "nature" or "nurture"?
@SomeOtherGuy Gender does not need to be fixed first and foremost, your and societies perception of them needs to change. As for societal impact, it determines suddle nuances, biology dicates behavior to an extreme degree that society cannot change hence the tragic incident with david reimer. The presumption made by society that the two meters of genetic code (per cell) has absolutely trivial impact on a persons development and personality is absurd. Yes enviorment has an affect but biology more so.
@SomeOtherGuy Also yes men are more likely to commit violence however the violence they commit are directed towards other men, statisticly a woman is actually more likely to commit violence against her husband and children then a man is. Again statisticly speaking. As I said it doesn't matter what feminist take away from this, what matters is the truth all else is irrelevent. Also rape and aggression are not the same and cannot be conflated. We also know that women rape men at nearly the same rate as men rape women (this is before factoring in that society as a whole still does not acknowledge male victims of female rape). The conclusion drawn is we are different we are built for two very different tasks and are optimized for those tasks. Males are protectors hence physical strength resilience and agression specifecly aggression towards other males. Feminist drawing false conclusions is irrelevent.
@SomeOtherGuy Those women had an agenda and manipulated data cherry picking what they wanted to best sell the idea that they where peddling. Again we know men are more aggressive, however recent studies have shown that while men have a tendency towards shuadenfreud (I think thats how its spelled) german for harm joy, it is only when some one who has done wrong suffers. Men where for violent actions being commited against criminals or those they percieved to be enemies however when given the same scenario but with the addition of civilians, the aggression scaled back to not involve them, more so then the woman participents. Thus further solidifying the rather well established notion of males as protectors. Using data for an agenda is not the same as speaking the truth. You presume my conclusion, that is a mistake on your part. Truth is what matters period. I don't sound like a separatist, I sound like a man who speaks the truth irregardless of what that might bring.
@hellionthesage Wow. Okay. You're pretty disillusioned here.
I kinda thought you had a moderate viewpoint somewhere in here. But seem pretty assured that women are gonna pop out of the woodworks and rape and murder you and your children. But not before they take all your precious monies. But luckily those aggressive protector men will keep you safe.
Yea, you really are no better than the Separatist Lesbian Feminists. I think I'm done arguing with you.
However I will point out that the conclusions you've drawn from the only two non opinion articles you've linked are enormous stretches. They do not suggest what professions men and women are better at, just how they can most effectively approach those subjects.
Anything noting behavior in those pieces account for very small margins of behavioral differences.
I could go into so much detail about your lack of wisdom and intelligence (I hope you realize those are two separate things) throughout our discussions. I'm so done.
@theccanyon They both seem pretty equal.
The scholarly articles show that developing female youths have stronger memory, social cognition and analysis. This means they can learn math better through arithmetic, handle people and will deal well with puzzles.
Males on the other hand have better motor and spatial abilities. They can do spacial puzzles really well, like assembling a circuit board or performing sports.
However, we see these differences taper off as the youths age. Practice and refinement are what determine the end result. If there is no interest in a subject, that subject will be left behind.
Society has a way of conditioning boys and girls (nurture) towards certain occupations due to stereotypes. Some women weigh more than some men, and can do hard labor better than those men can.
Women can perform engineering, programming and mathematics perfectly if taught towards their learning structure and they become interested early on.
It all depends on what you're accounting for. Men and women are capable of the same morality. Men and women have the same ability to become abusive. They have the same capability to perform well at graduate jobs.
Two people have schizophrenia. One shoots up a hospital, another does not.
Just because they suffer from a mental health issue that can make them prone to certain behaviors does not mean they are guaranteed to perform those behaviors, and they're definitely not guaranteed to perform the most radical forms of those behaviors.
The same can be said about males and females in terms of behavior. Conditioning (nurture) will determine the final outcome to the greatest extent. But if the most innate parts of them that determine how they develop and learn are not accounted for, their nature will never be realized.
@SomeOtherGuy disillusioned: disappointed in someone or something that one discovers to be less good than one had believed.
How is that applicable? Also again, you make claims and again you provide no examples, reasons, or evidence ergo you are wasting my time and yours. You claim something back it up period. Now explain how they are opinion pieces, go through find the data that suggest the national institute of health is not a credible source, questione the methodology question the research but do something. I will not continue to argue with a wall for that is precisely what is happening. I present evidence and you repeat the same thing providing nothing to back it up. So where is your evidence, you have mine I gave you multiple links by geneticist by neuroscientists and I have not made one presumption on the data, all I have done is state the data, I have shown you that men and women consistently act differently, That thanks to david reimer having his life destroyed we know that
@SomeOtherGuy gender is innate. So now you provide evidence. You provide statistical data, you provide the words of experts and federal organizations to back your claims as I have, or stop arguing admit you have nothing and move on. I am done until you can provide evidence. And again their is no excuse, we live in the information age its easily accessible I managed to give you reports written by the scientist themselves in fact I was able to give you ten different sources to prove my point and so you have no excuse for providing nothing. Evidence. That is all I will responde to from this point forward. If you have none do not bother your "argument" because it merely solidifies my argument by comparison to your lack of one.
Guess what dude? I don't have shit to prove to you. And not on a casual site like Girls Ask Guys.
This isn't speech and debate class. There's as many trolls on here as there are people. What makes you think I'm about to scour the web for a few opinion pieces and theoretical conclusions that back up a philosophy. The separtist and equalist philosophies.
I've read the scholarly, scientific articles before. And I've told you, nature and how we learn does not account for Gender Roles in our society. Those scientific, valid papers never mention or conclude those statements. The only way you can infer from that paper that they do is if you go in with a bias and are looking for something to back your claims up.
And sorry, @hellionthesage, that's not how proper science works.
There's plenty of material for equality and separatist theories to use to drive their philosophies. That's why they both exist.
After studying human nature, I've concluded Equality is the correct philosophy.
What pisses me off the most is how you run to these opinoin pieces, these op-ed articles, and claim that they're the work of science. They're soft conclusions drawn from the scholarly articles that say gender can determine your health and ability to learn.
But the valid, scientific articles you've provided from federal sources and scientific centers never state or conclusively lead to Gender Roles in society. They never indicate that a man is better at this job and a woman is better at this job.
Not. A. God. Damn. One.
But you bury those legit, scientific pieces into the op-ed articles and opinion pieces and then claim that they're all equally valid. It is the most intellectually dishonest drivel I have ever seen. I gave you the benefit of the doubt with that. Hoping you would simply take note and say "Oh, I was wrong. These pieces do not hold the same weight as these pieces."
This article you linked?
www.psychologytoday.com/.../brain-differences-between-genders
It's by a man who counsels for substance abuse patients. Not a neuroscientist. His piece is opinion, not a piece published as a finding in a scientific journal. I could already tell this by how his paper was presented.
This piece?
www.webmd.com/.../how-male-female-brains-differ
I can't even find an author for it. It's an article featured on webmd, no different from a myTake being featured on here.
It's mostly correct because it draws on a scholarly article like the one you presented, but it only points out how children with early development have differing ways to learn, not differing skill sets. Being naturally talented is one thing, and is influenced more by IQ, but skill sets still must be learned and practiced.
Further, the conclusion DISPROVES what you have been trying to say this whole time!
Do you even read your own links?
Same with this one!
science.howstuffworks.com/.../...ferent-brains.htm
And this guy?
https://www.netnanny.com/learn_center/article/165/
I can't even figure out his credentials. Plus this is an article published on net nanny!
This one?
www.rense.com/.../galaxyofgeneticdifferences.htm
It states that men and women have differing chromosomes which affects HEALTH and certain DISORDERS. It makes no claim about behavioral development or gender roles. It is about HEALTH. HEALTH god damnit. Not behavior.
This one?
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3030621/
Good job, it is the only piece you provided that is scientific and holds weight. But again, it doesn't go on to prove your theory. Infact, it does more to prove MY theory in many of it's places. You are BAD at this.
"Gender identity, or our sense of maleness or femaleness, plays an important role throughout our development affecting both our sense of self and our relationships [295; 332; 333]. Our gender identity and the roles ascribed to that gender are heavily influenced by social factors [e. g. 334]"
BOY YOU DID A GREAT JOB. Thanks. Thanks. I don't even need to go search the web. You brought me something I can already use in the scholarly article you provided.
What about this other scholarly piece you provided?
www.pnas.org/.../823.abstract?tab=author-info
Hmmm, well, it talks about our developmental nature and our ability to learn. It states in the abstract that adolescent males are good with motor skills and spatial reasoning. Yes, I know. Duh. Does that mean every boy is good at sports?
No. Obviously.
Does it even mean girls are bad at math and programming? Absofuckinglutely not.
Does it mean men are bad at talking to others and women are far better?
Gee, how about no.
Are you even aware of the part of this article that goes into AIS? I imagine that can help you understand transgender issues a little more.
The piece does more to support my cause than it does yours. Why the hell did you bring this article up?
Most of it talks about health differences and a susceptibility to certain things that affect the brain. Not gender roles.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15216426
Even the study of CAH only indicates a change in play behavior and orientation and gender identity (feeling like you belong as the sex you are), but never a change in gender roles.
Transgender is about a sense of comfort with your body, not with the role you play in society.
The study of David Reimer, while fascinating and important, is not a scientific study that eludes to Gender Roles. There is no control. It is a single sample. It's a great social study piece, just like the study of the women with over 20 different personalities. But that is in no way conclusive to the entire population or even every person with multiple personality disorder.
Gender Identity is not learned. The study shows that. But Gender Roles and Gender Identity are still two different things.
So in conclusion, please stop handing me evidence that I am correct because it just makes you look bad at this. Stop presenting data that does not support your claim. And stop presenting op-ed articles and opinion pieces as science or fact.
Or I'll have to spend another handful of our precious time tearing down your case like I just did.
Also, allow me to point out, @hellionthesage, that you are absolutely incapable of admitting you are wrong when you are.
Shit, at least I admitted I was wrong about homosexuals and the MRM. At least I have the capability and wisdom to be introspective and logically explore if I am being biased or not. At least I show humility and investigate my own claims, even in a way that may defunct those claims.
At least I am willing to be wrong and admit when I don't have the answers.
That's pretty fucking important.
Show some god damn wisdom and take some time to analyze your viewpoint.
Being wrong is a lot better than looking like a stubborn shitbag. Being wrong isn't bad. I am glad I realized homosexuals do get fair consideration in the MRM. I am glad I could correct myself.
I've found a lot of important, enlightening ideas by being wrong.
I am not a brick wall afraid to be wrong, and we've proven that. The brick wall is you. That's been seen again and again.
Further, study human nature and what the similarities are in people. Again, you will find that we are far more alike than we are different.
Yes, the binary sexes are different! But that doesn't mean half the shit society, or you, says it does. It does not justify gender roles. It is not nearly at the margin people seem to think.
It's garbage hogwash that the media simply perpetuates erroneously. It's a technique called Flanderization in popular media.
Human beings have more barriers between cultures, subcultures, beliefs and viewpoints than they do between being male or female.
Most the time someone bitches and says "Why do women do this" they never realize that it's just a behavior of their culture and doesn't apply across the board.
Understanding human nature illuminates this more than anything. So start there.
@SomeOtherGuy I never claimed he was the neuroscientist, he is a physcologist tha specializes in dependency ie brain chemistry and its affects. He is siting neuroscientist, like: www.cam.ac.uk/.../males-and-females-differ-in-specific-brain-structures
(so are you going to tell me cambridge is not trustworthy or the data collected by doctors of neurology and compiled by proffesionals is opinion and not actual evidence?)
Now, again, you are making presumptions of a grande nature. I have no idea what your talking about when it pertains to sepratist or equalist, all I care about is what is true, not an ideaology. Further more its troubling that you think that being different means inferior, it does not. That is more of a personal issue and has nothing to do with me, please refrain from injecting your opinions into my statements. Clearly you are making presumptions of a grand degree, please explain to me what I am trying to prove? This user claimed their was no differences in men and women, I stated their where as per scientific research, that is all.
@SomeOtherGuy Now, I have managed not to insult you you unfortunatley have not extended that courtesy. Despite you constantly misrepresenting my statements, making assumptions/false claims as to what I was trying to prove I remained civil. Why can't you? As for behavioral health and gender roles, genetics shows a difference between men and women, brain scans show a difference between men and women, as I have pointed out we can see a division in interests and occupation, you yourself acknowledged that their are inherent differences between men and women giving certain aptitude like hand eye cordination for men all of which would influence how they percieve the world and how they interact with it. It is not only reasonable but logical to presume that these provabe differences in biology/genetics also play a part in the provable differences in socialization and interactions as well as general choices in fields of study. Why would they not?
@SomeOtherGuy I have no idea what your theory is quite honestly beyond some vague idea that men and women are exactly the same but not really but absolutely the same. yes that was in the article (the social factors) I used that article to point out the biological differences, which it did, I then used transexualism as why of showing biologies impact on gender identity sicne by definition transexuals are people who are socially conditioned to act and behave and function as one gender yet identify with another which is impossible if gender is a social construct. I then used David reimer who was forced to live as a girl getting gender reassignment surgery and being raised as such only to for the entire time identify as a boy and eventually transitioning back to male and living as a male despite social conditioning ie gender is not a social construct, it may be influenced by society but it is inherent ie biological in origin. This is fact, irregardless of what you want to believe and you
@SomeOtherGuy know, thats why you did not address those remarks. You go on a tirade about how my links only show how men and women learn/think differently, have different abilities function differently, then conlcude we must be the same. That is illogical. They are generalization and at no point did I suggest that they dicatate all behavior, they are generalizations which means they are true in a general sense ie their are plenty of exceptions however they follow general patterns. Again you misrepresent my argument and twist it into a straw man argument because you cannot argue against it. You cannot acknowledge differences between men and women then completely ignore them by saying we are the same. You cannot ignore biological differences and presume that they have no impact on a person without being wrong. This is fact, this is logic. Ad homined fallacies, straw man fallacies, apeal to improper authorities (you are not an authority), etc will not alter this.
@SomeOtherGuy op-ed
adjective
noun: op-ed; plural noun: op-eds; adjective: Op-Ed; adjective: OpEd
denoting or printed on the page opposite the editorial page in a newspaper, devoted to commentary, feature articles, etc.
None of my links where this, mine where writen articles taking data from scientist, several writen by doctors pertinent to the field/point that was made etc.
You are right this was not a debate, their is nothing to question here. My statement was that of the truth, which can't be argued against. Stop wasting our time with this if you have nothing but presumptions baseless accusations and your own projected insecurites.
@hellionthesage Interesting. I'm not so sure I was ever making the grand claim that men and women aren't different. Infact, going through every single post I've ever made in this argument, I have stated multiple times the differences between men and women and where those differences are.
Are you actually trying to pretend I'm not in order to discredit me or say something that I have obviously never said?
You sicken me. Like, you are a disgusting human being man. The second you feel backed into a corner you act like this? You're disgusting.
You have stated several times that your sources are "measurable data given by proffesionals ie neurologist, biologists and geneticist."
Do you even understand the difference between Psychology, Nuerology, Biochemistry and Psychiatry? Between Cognitive Psychology and Social Psychology?
Your ignorance is getting on my nerves. Especially when you start feigning ignorance like you are now.
Further, your posts have always been for the moral and behavioral superiority of men. Infact one of your posts proves that. And then espousing it as truth and reality while having yet to provide a claim that says otherwise.
Men are not morally or behaviorally superior or better than women. Women are not inferior. They're both human, and humans vary wildly across a spectrum.
Time and time again studies have shown that the differences between the sexes only eludes to a few things, none of which determine social, moral and psychology development into adulthood.
Any margin of difference in those categories is minute, or socially determined.
You are one of the more intellectually dishonest, immoral, and disgusting people I've seen on this site.
@hellionthesage
"An op-ed (originally short for "opposite the editorial page") is a piece typically published by newspapers, magazines, and the like which expresses the opinions of a named author usually not affiliated with the publication's editorial board.[1]"
I'm pretty much at the end of my rope with your level of ignorance.
Your lack of introspection and your inability to think logically or evaluate yourself or your viewpoints.
The just sheer, brazen, over-zealous blindness you constantly exhibited.
How willing you are to be intellectually dishonest and morally lacking.
Nothing you have said is truth. Spouting that it's truth doesn't make it truth. You have done more to prove MY arguments with your links than you have your OWN.
Ugh.
They aren't pertinent to the field. You are appealing to authority. It's like saying that every teacher is an expert who can make claims about the federal education system.
That's not how it works!
Just because they work in a related field doesn't make them an expert. Just because someone understands psychology doesn't make them an expert on neurology.
None of it works like that!
How are you this ignorant? How can you sit here and pretend like you're talking truth?
I just went through a huge laundry list of things that knocked your entire argument to fucking shreds.
You keep backing into a corner and being dishonest and just flat out stupid!
It's the most frustrating thing I've had to deal with on this site. And watching you act the way you have, I can only describe my emotion as moral indignation against you.
You are dishonest and you prey on people who are easily duped. You are an alarmist who preys on people's fears, and you lie to people. You wrap your bullshit in this false cloak of bad rhetoric, and then tell them you're being honest and they can't deny the truth!
I pointed out the flaw in everything you posted, and used your own links to prove my own argument.
@hellionthesage Listen man. You don't seem to be able to grasp anything I've pointed out. I honestly think a lot of what I've said is beyond your comprehension.
They just seem to be slipping through your ears or something. I don't know.
I honestly comprehend everything you've said. But I have already pointed out where it backs up my claim, not yours. I pointed out that the opinions of people not directly in the field, while nice, are not evidence of anything.
Women are no more meant to be housekeepers and receptionists than they are CEOs and Programmers. The same goes for men.
It's about human conditoning, social conditioning, and practicing skill sets.
Transgender is about the body, not our Gender Roles. Even the case of "Brenda" makes it apparent that the issue wasn't with her role in society, but her genitals and body.
Honestly I'm just done with you. I can't keep trying to explain a concept that you do not grasp.
Go study human beings instead of men and women. Again. Reiterating this. Maybe what I'm telling you will make sense if you understand how similar people are after removing their gender.
What I'm saying is, go out of your way and try to see beyond a person's gender to their humanity. The thing that defines us all as part of the human race.
There's a lot more similarities between men and women in terms of behavior and morals than there are differences.
But again, I feel like you are failing at grasping what I said. Meanwhile, I have grasped everything you said and made logical, valid points debunking them. Pointing out where you are being intellectually dishonest and using rhetoric. Where you're being an alarmist. And how you're trying to use work that doesn't back your claims but sounds scientific enough.
But yea, don't expect me to reply again. You've shown weak character. If you think me being angered by your dishonesty and your offputting behavior is because I want to fling insults at you, perhaps you should study moral indignation and understand why I'm doing it.
Honestly I don't even hate you. I'm not offended that you are trying to prove me wrong. Or that you would like to be right. But how you go about it. Then stuff you say. how dishonest you are. That's not okay.
Trying to call out that I'm beating you down. Acting like you're some sort of victim. Saying that you have the truth and it can't be proven wrong.
Being an alarmist.
It's just bad character, and I find it almost heartbreaking that someone would act this way. Really makes you lose faith in parts of society.
So yeah, I'm out.
@SomeOtherGuy You speak as if we are having to very different conversations. Either way you where rude and their was no cause for it. The fact remains data backs my statments from all fields of study. You should ask yourself why you so desperately want us to all be the same, and why you feel being different is the equivalent of being inferior, because it isn't and never will be.
I can't say I identify as a men's right activist by any means, but I share their revulsion of contemporary feminism. Men often do get short shrift in divorce proceedings, having their children, their homes, and a significant portion of their incomes ripped from them in a single stroke. It destroys many men, and that's why so many guys today are in no hurry to get married. We know that divorce will absolutely kill us when it all falls apart.
Why are so many people who associate themselves with groups always so damn crazy.
I do find that the more people believe their group is benevolent, can-do-no-wrong, the more wrong they do and the more malevolent and crazy those people are.
Lets take into consideration the fact that this group is not here to defend themselves and that the only evidence presented was the authors opinoins not the words of the group or their representatives.
Well i wasn't even referring to a specific group actually. I said "so many" people who associate with groups are crazy in general.
@SomeOtherGuy Exactly, it's a mob mentality and it's really scary to think about how many get involved and brainwashed into things so easily lol
Some feminists take it too far so why shouldn't nen have a counter balance.
Cause hate doesn't fight hate.
Just like Fire doesn't actually fight Fire. It just makes the fire worse.
@SomeOtherGuy Well said @SomeOtherGuy
@SomeOtherGuy actually they can fight fires with fires by burning out an area before the main fire get's there. Thus starving the main fire of fuel.
@kairon156 Sounds counter productive on the surface. But I get the science behind it.
I'm a Men's Rights Activist and this post did nothing but make me follow the MRM more. Thank you.
lol why? what's your reason? very rare to see a woman in your situation
@Battooot my reasoning is because this woman who wrote this had the attitude of a person who believes that men simply want "something to whine about". Making out like she knows more about the entire situation because she has "researched" such topics. When in all reality, nobody will ever know the situation fully unless of course you are a man. There is nothing I hate more than a woman who acts like they know everything about men, all while she is making it seem like they over exaggerate.
That and she clearly is showing hostility toward the MRM; stating that they blame feminism.. Blah blah blah. But that alone is a hypocritical statement. Especially for a feminist to say. Because feminists often blame men for their problems. Whether it is oppression or other topics related to feminism.
Well congratulations and I hope you enjoy the rest of my myTakes on the subject.
Great sentiments, everything are doing is right, they campaigning against persecution of men, and they are right about divorce and parental rights, plus women get treat more leniently then men in crime, a bloke is treat more harshly if he commits a crime against a women then if it was another man, And take this site if you say anything a woman does not like, it gets reported and removed, which shows the site is run by a bunch of feminazis, no doubt you remove my comment for disagreeing with you.
This take was a waste of time becuase we'll know that if it doesn't make #money or get ___ any #pussy it doesn't matter in this world LOL
So egalitarian (which you wrote as "equalitarian"... is that a typo?) is anti feminist? You might get some backlash on GAG but in the media, hollywood and ESPECIALLY in public education the entire INSTITUTION has your feminist back.
It's not a typo. It can be equalitarian, egalitarian, or humanist. You didn't know that though but now you do. Quite a few egalitarians are anti-feminist. If you want proof you can read the vast amount of myTakes on GAG about it. Also I'm not a feminist but I'm not surprised by your response. It seems if someone has a differing view from yours then they are a feminist.
We have argued on a different take. You're not going to change my mind anymore than I can change yours. However here is my my point (and take it with a grain of salt). The MRM started up (I'm not part of it) because men are recognizing that feminism is not just "a movement" any more but a biased, powerful institutionalized faction that has gained a incredible amount of influence in the western legal and public education sectors. I could grant credence to the idea back in the 60s. However the more these angry women have been given, the more they want. Greed is a real human emotion no matter what gender, race, orientation, background, etc you come from. Nobody is beyond reproach including feminists.
This is a domestic violence hotline in western Australia. dcp.wa.gov.au/.../domesticviolencehelplines.aspx
Here is the what is says for women:
The Women’s Domestic Violence Helpline is a state wide 24 hour service. This service provides support and counseling FOR WOMEN EXPERIENCING FAMILY AND DOMESTIC VIOLENCE. This includes phone counseling, information and advice, referral to local advocacy and support services, liaison with police if necessary and support in escaping situations of family and domestic violence.
The hotline for men:
The Men’s Domestic Violence Helpline is a state wide 24 hour service. This service provides counseling for men WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR VIOLENT AND ABUSIVE BEHAVIORS. The service can provide telephone counseling, information and referral to ongoing face to face services if required. This service can provide information about accessing legal advice,
This is a taxpayer funded government service and THEY ARE SERIOUS! And you wonder why the MRA exists...
Enjoy believing that.
Honestly I want the best for everybody. Getting bitter and argumentative doesn't really every make anybody happy (that's why I don't belong to MRM). However after experiencing overt, university supported misandry in college and in my 20s I can't help speaking up.
I can agree with a lot of the Opinion Owner's response.
Feminists do need reproach. It's going to be important that they concede some ground in order to progress society.
I've already pointed out, and the myTake owner has agreed, that Feminists are not equipped and cannot promote the consideration for men that needs to be afforded to them to continue equalizing the sexes. We need to do that to allow everyone to live the life they want to live. One that is healthy, happy and fully aware.
One of the greatest stigmas towards men is the one highlighted by the Austrilian hotline, and it needs to be changed. Otherwise, women will always be seen as grossly different from men.
Notice how the take owner just responded "Enjoy believing that". Like I made that western Australian hotline up when there is a direct link and this REALLY EXISTS. That is solid proof evidence of institutionalized misandry but she just can't, can't admit she's wrong. She's more worried about BEING right than WHAT IS RIGHT. That is why I argue against feminism. They will never admit the woman is wrong about anything. Never.
Once again enjoy believing that. I don't recall ever arguing with you before but if we did then I stated that I'm not a feminist but in order to substantiate your belief that all of feminism is the enemy you need to believe I'm a feminist. Otherwise it doesn't make sense as to why I presented this information. You are the one who can't accept reality. By the way my initial response was to your first post out of the 2 you posted. In regards to the 2nd post where out listed the hotline I noticed you left out the end.
Here is the full description given for men:
The Men’s Domestic Violence Helpline is a state wide 24 hour service. This service provides counselling for men who are concerned about their violent and abusive behaviours. The service can provide telephone counselling, information and referral to ongoing face to face services if required. "This service can provide information about accessing legal advice, accommodation and other support services for people who have been served with a violence restraining order. Information and support is also available for men who have experienced family and domestic violence. A telephone based interpreting service is available if required."
Lets look at that again.
"Information and support is also available for men who have experienced family and domestic violence."
Not sure why you would leave that part out... Oh wait I know.
For not being a feminist you seem to support their beliefs/viewpoints. Why else would you take some much time and effort attacking the MRM? Also I didn't purposely leave out ""Information and support is also available for men who have experienced family and domestic violence." however why isn't there a section for women that says "This service provides counselling for WOMEN who are concerned about their violent and abusive behaviours."
There is still a clear bias there. You can't deny that.
I also "accidentally" left this part of the MENs section too: "This service can provide information about accessing legal advice, accommodation and other support services for people who have been served with a VIOLENCE RESTRAINING ORDER" However there is no verbiage about restraining orders and legal advice in the women's section. Hmm... I wonder why?
They could have kept the same verbiage both men and women... but they didn't. Nope, nope, nope. There had to be an agenda and an assumption about all women being the victims and all men being the abusers.
This hotline sexism has gone viral by the way. However they still refuse to change the verbiage.
Attacking the MRM? Not really. I could say the same for the myTakes on GAG that are anti-feminist. I'm just providing what is commonly seen in the MRM movement. For you to believe that there are no issues in the MRM is the biggest lie you could tell yourself. Instead of addressing it you want to defend the behavior. Also I never talked about my stance on feminism. You came to your own conclusion.
Now you've taken a step back and call it bias instead of misandry because I provided the whole description. Is it bias? Yes but for me to actually provide the whole information for you to restate yourself also shows one of the many problems with anti-feminist.
Actually I presented that in my re-post of the the description because I don't hide information. If you look at the stats from the Parliament of Australia you'll see that women are more likely to suffer domestic violence then men.
"1 in 6 Australian women had experienced physical or sexual violence from a current or former partner.
1 in 19 Australian men had experienced physical or sexual violence from a current or former partner.
1 in 4 Australian women had experienced emotional abuse by a current or former partner.
1 in 7 Australian men had experienced emotional abuse by a current or former partner."
This honestly isn't a contest like you want it to be. It's like you want men to be physically abused in order to prove you are the bigger victim. Also I'm sure the hotline has gone viral in the manosphere.
Oh and here is the link: www.aph.gov.au/.../DVinAust
But since you believe the government has a misandrist/ feminist agenda then you will probably dismiss it.
I gotta agree with the myTake Owner. She did call you out for leaving out part of the hotline description. That was a bit dishonest on your part as it changes part of the nature of those descriptions.
Though I would like to see the verbiage on the womens side also provide a hotline number for women who may be concerned about abusive behavior, because some women do need to have that conversation.
Attacking the MRM certainly doesn't make someone a feminist. The MRM and Manosphere does have toxic members and toxic ideas. They have valid issues that need to be addressed, but they tend to point fingers instead of collaboratively fixing the issues of our society.
Just because someone recognizes that, doesn't mean they prescribe to one movement or another.
Just like not every anti-feminist is an MRM.
"False rape reporting: Many MRAs believe women file false rape reports to punish men."
MRAs and anyone who reads the Rolling Stone.