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So do we render biology null in this argument? Our endocrine system is responsible for a lot of the differences between male and female. Women produce 7x less testosterone than men, hence why they are softer and submissive in nature. What about neurology?
There are myriad differences, but this article isn't trying to draw attention to them, this is simply a thinly veiled complaint about men.
"... it's that there is a standard of measurement of people's value that is based off of a particular, sex-related ideal."
Exactly! The standard that denigrates characteristics and attributes that are seen as being "feminine" if they occur in a male, and which demand an unreasonable adherence to norms that are both artificial and harmful.
Masculinity, as defined by the patriarchy, is toxic full stop, and we simply don't need it.
"it is an explanation, in good faith, for those who want to understand a very complicated thing a little bit better."
Dictating to people is not a good faith action. Any opinion that is considered beyond question is automatically an invalid opinion.
That's fair, I should've phrased some things better, mostly it was me wanting to avoid the personal insults people tend to sling when talking about these things. But I see how it doesn't come across that way.
Well, basically patriarchy isn’t real — not like feminists want to illustrate it. It’s a set of fabricated or carefully selected and arranged go information to present the image of disadvantage.
I know you dont want to listen, but I dont care what ignorant closed minded morons want.
While it is true to say that many or most of the people in positions of great wealth or power are male, it is also true to say that they are Jewish.
It should be clear, even to you at this point that your position is total garbage but just incase you really are that hard of thinking I will get crayons out for you.
All x are y does not mean that all y are z.
By all means feel free to disagree with her, but there's no need to be a pompous, condescending sack of shit about it.
@Rachelspiks
QQ
Cry more
Another Angry Karen
So, in other words if someone rebuts your opinion or dares disagree with you, not following your desired outcome of a pointless, steered, one sided conversation, you’ll report and block them… how very liberal democrat of you, report and block away, I don’t GAF.
Incels and Feminists are similar for one reason:
They both hate the idea of a gender controlling them.
Some think they are on either side of the spectrum, but in reality, they're not that far off from each other. You may think otherwise, but please, try thinking outside of the box and give this statement a chance.
Respect me, and I'll respect you. That is the answer I want and shall respond to.
Feminists and Incels are literally the same type of people. They just choose different genders to hate. Funny how society loves feminists and hates incels, though.
Still not sure I follow. This seems to be an issue with the idea of any ideal--not a masculine one necessarily.
Also, why is it that "toxic masculinity" is deemed to be the peak of masculinity? I'm not sure anyone really thinks that.
No, it's not about men, the name patriarchy doesn't mean men enforce the standards, we all do that to ourselves and each other. And it's those standards that are toxic. Because of a lot of factors and history those ideals got called patriarchy. That doesn't mean men are at fault or to blame, this is an everyone problem right now.
And most people don't any more, which is good, but a lot of people, and media as a whole, make that identity seem ideal. You see it in many male superheros and action stars. And there are men who buy into that culture and support it. But I agree with you, I don't think most men want to be that kind of person.
So this is all about rejecting any concept of ideal? It's the existence of standards that is toxic?
Not at all, it's about rejecting this particular concept of 'ideal' and this particular existence of standards. Because clearly it's not working for men or for women, so we can do better. Or, we should at least try.
So what's the new ideal?
We forget about gender and just let people be who they want to be. Men being soft and sensitive and knitting and sewing and wearing dresses and whatever damn clothes they feel like wearing, or they can be tough and stoic, but it's their choice, no one forces it on them or expects it of them. We let women be butch and tough and take no shit and not judge them for it, or they can be feminine and sweet and delicate and not label them as some ideal of womanhood. Just another person.
It means we don't tell fathers kids don't need them. It means we don't tell male survivors of rape and abuse that they wanted it, or it wasn't real, or why didn't they do something, be a man. It means we don't berate women for their choices of working or mothering or both, it means we don't call them sluts if they wear clothes that make them feel pretty. It's just letting people figure out who they want to be with lessons of kindness, respect, cooperation and love at the center.
I'm not saying it's easy, I'm not saying it's possible in my lifetime, but I'm saying why not aim for the highest possible thing and work your way up in steps from there.
Sure but dudes are free to be sensitive and chicks are free to be butch now. There's nothing stopping them. So I'm not sure how you see this as somehow fundamentally different from where we already are today. Maybe I'm missing something.
I love that this article is sensitive to issues on both sides of the "equation."
I was a bit put off by the argument that secretaries were the original 'computer people.' But this is just because of my background in the field. Actually a lady by the name of Grace Hopper invented one of the first linkers and she is renowned in the field of computer science, and furthermore, we are scientists not secretaries, thank you.
@MCheetah Well said!
The vitriolic opening sentences made me think the person posting had some personal issues she was dealing with and her anger was being aimed at the GaG community.
The poster seems not to want any real dialogue about the topic so I won't waste my words responding.
"Patriarchy" is the view that Men and Boys are subhuman oppressors, it is a means of dehumanization. It is not based in reality or fact, it denied the reality of all the young men enslaved for war without the vote, the reality of Men and Boys being 80% of suicides, 92% of workplace deaths, 72% of the homeless.
The list goes on, to believe in "Patriarchy" you have to believe that males aren't human beings.
How to spot a bitch full of daddy issues: it's the one complaining about patriarchy
What if i told you that the matriarchy is also real. How about you check both side of the stories before you care so much?
Matriarchy is a system within certain cultures, that's true. But here it's a patriarchy, and that doesn't mean men are evil, they're not, what it means is that we're all screwed over in a particular way, including men.
What I also want to say is that women also support and uphold the patriarchy, we are also complicit and that complicity means that we hurt men and reinforce those harmful standards against them.
Then if that's your claim, naku so mean for the matriarchy to screw over in a particular way including women. Unless you're just being one-sided about everything because you just want double standards
I haven't studied matriarchal society so I don't know, genuinely I have no idea. But if it serves the same purpose of patriarchy (define gender roles and keep people in their place) then yes it is.
the point is if both is real and if they act the same, that would just mean it is a human thing and neither patriarchy or matriarchy. So both doesn't really exist but just society
Classic female: if you post something I don't like I will block you and delete your posts.
Honey, go bask in your entitlement and privilege.
I do have entitlement and privilege, you're right. I own that. And I apologized for my verbiage to a previous commenter but I'll do so again here. I'm sorry for the language I used, what I meant was that I wasn't up for personal attacks and name calling in the comments that's not what I'm trying to incite. I'm sorry if the way I phrased it was rude.
I appreciate your recanting your restriction.
Let's talk about "patriarchy" and how men are so "privileged".
-Men work almost all of the outside jobs being exposed to the elements.
-Men are most likely to be victims of assault.
-Men are most likely to be victims of murder.
-Men are much more likely to be homeless.
-Men are more likely to have untreated mental illness.
-Men are much more likely to commit suicide.
-Men have a much lower life expectancy than women and are a smaller percentage of the population, yet 3X as much money is spent on women's medical issues as opposed to men's.
-Men make up 94% of workplace deaths as men overwhelmingly work the most dangerous and toxic jobs.
-Men serve 60% longer prison sentences when convicted for exactly the same crime as women.
-In divorce men only get custody of their children 13% of the time.
-In divorce women are financially incentivised to file for divorce at the expense of men.
-Women have myriad social programs, entitlements, and outright grants for them (i. e. "WIC", Women Infants Children... notice the absence of MEN).
-Men pay the overwhelming majority of taxes while women are the overwhelming beneficiary's of social programs paid for largely by men.
-Men suffer domestic violence almost as much as women and yet in the US there is ONE shelter that will accept a man while there are over 2000 for women.
Patriarchy... works pretty well for women.
KrakenAttackin, yes, I agree. You are objectively correct and I'm so glad you posted all of this because this is exactly my point. Patriarchy is a misnomer because it's not men overpowering women, it's men and women suffering because of stupid stereotypes, expectations and lies. These things that you listed are real because of the expectations that men are told to uphold in our society - they're told that by this force called Patriacrchy or sexism or whatever name you'd rather give it.
I should've made more clear in my post that Patriarchy is not a great term for what's going on, because it makes it sound like men have it great - but they don't. Mens' lives also suck, and there are tons of ways they are disadvantaged and abused and neglected and killed by this system of expectations.
You are right. And you should say it.
However, there are also ways that patriarchy works well for men, in the same kind of way you listed here. So it's not that women benefit from patriarchy or men do - we BOTH suffer. It sucks all around.
And that is how you disarm someone with kindness.
Kraken I think you’re very ungrateful for your entitlements and privileges. Don’t act like you don’t have them either. Maybe they need to be taken from you like you want them to be taken from women.
Yeah that’s mainly on the fault of men though.
Women don’t generally cause that.
@BeadsrBest Come spend a few days with me to see my "entitlement". I think you will quickly run back to your gynocentric keyboard.
Doubt it. Again you’re very ungrateful. The men from your age bracket are.
Also maybe you should be more accountable for your actions and choices if your life is so terrible. Unless you’re in the hospital typing this with a pencil between your teeth, you likely are to blame for much of it. In fact, please get help before you hurt others. You have incel tendencies. 1-800-NAMI. They won’t judge.
What’s really sad is you make it out be like women are to blame for what men do. No they aren’t. Most of the things you brought up as problems with men are due to other men.
Ludorock, you don't need to apologise to these knuckle-dragging neanderthals. Everything you said was accurate and true, and these creepy, pathetic incels just can't handle the truth, especially when it's said by a woman.
@BeadsrBest honey you are the most priveleged on earth. Men have it objectively harder. All the frame teachers gave you muvh better treatment because of your gender. You have more opportunities because of special treatment. You are pathetic and weak.
@Hallo626262 of the teachers I had that were women not a single one treated me worse than the girls.
On the other hand no teacher, man or woman, liked bad behavior. And boys usually behave worse.
@ludorock. On a very tangential note you have an excellent avatar. Did you do that painting?
@This_Is_My_Opinion8 nice anecdotal experience. It's a proven thing conducted by countless of studies. Boys behave worse because they feel awfull in the worthless feminized education system.
@Hallo626262 if you want to talk about studies it has already been proven that boys tend to behave worse than girls. And grades are not just about testing they depend on your performance during class too.
One thing I agree, the hole sit down and learn thing is more fitting to girls usually as boys tend to not be as focus on listening, but more on doing. Whoever the market place is more and more about knowledge and not about physical capacity like it was a few generations ago. So schools must grade students this way.
@This_Is_My_Opinion8 "Boys behave worse than girls". BULLSHIT. This is only true if you use girls behavior as the gold standard for behavior! Boys and girls are DIFFERENT, boys are NOT girls with different plumbing.
Stop with your of ignorant shit. Wait until you have a son and you will see what is allied against him. Will you protect your son or throw him to the gynocentric wolves?
I didn't said that we are worse. We are not defective girls, but like you said we are different. And we tend to behave worse. You know how it is, when you are young the cool ones are the ones that don't play by the rules, the ones that disturb the class.
There is a big difference between saying boys don't have as much capacity as girls and say boys display behavior in class.
Einstein was a bad student in school for this very reason.
@This_Is_My_Opinion8 no such thing as "performance during class"
@Hallo626262 yes there is. Teachers grade you on more then just the test results.
@This_Is_My_Opinion8 which is ridiculous. Being a little girly who sits still in a boring class is nothing that should be encouraged.
@Hallo626262 as long as she or he is listing to the teacher they are doing what they should.
If they are not paying attention, disrupting the class, not letting the others learn and playing around that's another story.
@This_Is_My_Opinion8 they aren't learning anything besides being obedient little dead brains.
@Hallo626262 the idea is not that you are obedient and brain dead. But which mature respectable adult can't sit down and listen? Specially when you are in a place to learn. That must the taught.
@This_Is_My_Opinion8 They don't learn anything and this is about kids. Wtf are you even talking about?
@Hallo626262 I mean as a kid you have to begin to learn the things that will make you a proper adult. If a person is just left to do whatever he wants he will never be a proper adult.
So as a kid is important that they have boundaries. That they learn that there is time to play and there is time to work and learn.
@This_Is_My_Opinion8 i mean you're an idiot.
@Rachelspiks nobody cares about your "truth" everyone know you're a priveleged little girl with no brain.
@Hallo626262 do you have children?
A few more:
When men turn 18, they are required to register with Selective Service for military draft eligibility and are on the hook until they turn 26. If they don't, it's a possible five years in prison, $250,000 and are definitely ineligible for federal benefits. Women turn 18 and get them automatically.
Go on Scholarships. com and see how many more female-only scholarships (highest value: $150,000) there are as opposed to male-only (HV: $15,000).
The thing is this list could be three times bigger and most women will either trivialize it or completely ignore it like it's written in Sanskrit with invisible ink.
@ludorock well if women are willing to take command of the ship and deal with the same things that men have been doing since tribal man spread through out the world (which many have done and not received the respect they deserve for it) and all the lower to those women, or ( many don't want to and prefer to use their bodies and sex as tools to get the men to do what they can do.) Or another group that just really don't care and leave it as it's been.
Correction: all "power" to the the woman that take charge, not "lower". I failed to spell check. aha 😅
Patriarchy is a thing moreso in the middle east. Due to historical/cultural reasons. The breadwinner getting to make decisions doesn't mean they are necessarily selfish. In all likelihood they're not. Exceptions are not the rule. In short, patriarchy is not a derogatory term.
"Toxic masculinity is the peak of masculinity. It is the definition of what it means to be a man." You are an idiot, lady.
yep, I forgot about the fundamentalist religious types. That is an actual patriarchy. Yet some of the problems described in the initial post do not exist there. And a lot of others not even mentioned do and its really really bad.
How many women in the south even know what patriarchy is.
I heard the 13th apostle was, in fact, Saint Andrew. It was a woman.
I am a feminist. Too many women associate freedom and liberty with having financial security. As a man, and a feminist, I can't give all, the gold diggers I meet in a Scottsdale bar a run down on the Feminine Mystique.😘😘
You really think that you can explain your definition of patriarchy and not expect people to argue? Not to mention, you directly attack men in your explanation. I'd take patriarchy over the complain-y-archy we live in today.
just take a look at how many misogynists exist on GAG, you will understand patriarchy is well and alive.
We just dont like hearing delusions
@Chthou95 i think you're one of the woman haters
I really dont give two shits if that's what you think i am. Call me whatever you want. But delusions are not reality
@Chthou95
nobody cares about what an anti woman hater has to say. you have no legitimacy.
Why do so many other people disagree with this bullshit? You complain about imaginary rights you don't have
@Chthou95
anti woman haters would disagree with this. because 75% of men on GAG are woman haters.
So anything a man disagrees with makes him a women hater? Seems legit 👍
@Chthou95
you don't just disagree with women, you shit on women. Lets see you spend one day without shitting on women on here. no wait, you can't do it.
Im not politcally correct. I don't care if your feelings get hurt. Go cry to a simp
@Chthou95
nobody is crying over a goddam fool with no dating life. but only knows how to throw tantrums on GAG
Who's throwing a tantrum? And you assume a guy has no dating life because he's not a simp or politcally correct. Newsflash sweet heart there are men that are assholes that still date. Shocker i know
@Chthou95
I have been on GAG long enough to know that 80% of men on here do not have dating lives but are bitter single and hate women.
do you really think I would believe that your dating life is going well if you hate on women so much on here?
I've been on here long enough to know that most women are hypergamous. We can keep going on and on here. And i don't hate women. I just don't kiss their asses and simp
But even if i did though, what would you do about it?
@Chthou95
nobody would believe your dating life is going well if you shit talk about women 24/7. I'm willing to bet you get rejected left and right which is why you're so bitter and angry
There's a lot of misogynist out there that get laid or still date so this whole idea of being politically incorrect and not kidding a girls ass because i get rejected seems like a cop out. No actual rebuttal to the non existing patriarchy women claim is real
You didn't answer the question though. If i was a quote "Women hater" what would you do about it?
@Chthou95
Nobody was talking about getting laid. You're only changing the topic to avoid the topic that no woman wants to date you.
@Chthou95
just take a look at yourself, you're a bitter, sad, aggressive wreck filled with hatred and pessimism. Who would want to date you? there's no chance your life is going well either if you're this sad.
Yeah you're right i am bitter. I am annoyed and it didn't just happen over night. It took a long time before it got to this point. And most other guys that feel the same way didn't just become bitter over night. But just because im bitter doesn't mean im not wrong about patriarchy not being a real thing because its not a real thing. Women have many privledges than they could ever imagine. Hell women have more privledges than men. And using the whole you're bitter because women don't want to date you doesn't win debates
@Chthou95
Women do not have more privileges than men. Women do not have higher standards than men.
Its just that you like to believe this because you like to play victim. You like to play victim because you know that no woman wants you in real life.
Whenever you get rejected by a woman, it is always her fault, it is never your fault. Have you ever taken an honest look at your shitty self instead of blaming other people when they are not attracted to you?
You like to say that women have high standards YET, you would not date any woman over the age of 30. who really has the highest standards? you or these women?
Unpopular opinion for ever time it's my fault, its also not my fault. But you actually do. How are you gonna say patriachy is a real thing when
1. Suicide rates are higher in men
2. Work related deaths make up mostly men
3. Women win child custody battles majority of the time
4. Women have more emotional support groups
5. You can hit a man in public and no one will care. A man hitting a women, everyone comes to the rescue
6. Women get accepted into colleges more than men & graduation rates when it comes to men are low
7. You ironically can blame all your problems on men and no one will bat an eye but a man doing it will get him ridiculed
8. You don't have sign draft papers once you turn 18
9. Female sexuality is being embraced while male sexuality is shamed (Thanks to feminism)
10. Society as a whole doesn't care about men's problems but you girls get the help you need
How exactly are you oppressed and when in any recent time did it suddenly change?
Also women get lighter prison sentences than men and by the way i would date a 30 year old women
@Chthou95
I can list out a whole number of things where women have it worse. But I'm not gonna waste my time and precious energy on a fool like you. Maybe writing out that list makes you feel better about women finding you unattractive?
List them please so i can debunk most them. And again personel insults aren't going to win you debates ma'am
@Chthou95
I can easily debunk you. But even if I did debunk you, you're still gonna look for other ways to hate and shit on women. You're a low life. Even if you know that men have it better than women, you will still insist that women have it better. because you're a low life. you're not a respectable decent person.
I got my violin and sad face 😢🎻. Countinue to throw around personel attacks instead of actual arguments
Continue*
Women love the patriarchy, they all want to be with a guy that's successful and makes more money than they do. College educated women want the patriarchy more than any other. So the patriarchy grows, it gets bigger and stronger cause women feed the patriarchy animal.
Masculinity doesn't seem to be a part of any equation in the patriarchy.
This guy gets it.