Redefining our manhood and the defeat of Patriarchy

[Apope16]

One of my favorite philosophers is Simone de Beauvior. I found out about her in my Women's Studies and Philosophy classes during undergraduate school. She once said:

One is not born, but rather, made a woman.

I think she is getting at this idea of patriarchy and how society imposes gender stereotypes and gender norms on to people. It limits the freedoms of not just women, but men as well. I believe that after this Fourth Wave of Feminism which is centered on the concepts and beliefs of the "me too" movement, we must look in the direction of a Fifth Wave of Feminism. This new wave brings together allies of women who seek to uproot patriarchal norms. This would chiefly be men, but it would also be transgender individuals, and allies in the LGBTQ Community.

I must live out an authentic life. The defeat of Patriarchal society is not only about empowering women. It is about empowering MEN to be true to who they are without fear of gender disassociation.

As a man I wear pink because I like to wear it. As a man I may even wear heels because I like them and wish I was taller. I am personally more metro-sexual in the way that I dress. Because its a style that suits my personality. It is not a message of being secretly homosexual. It doesn't mean I am bisexual. Its simply who I am and what I like. I am a man. There is nothing feminine about pink or purple. Its just a color. Likewise, I watch romantic comedy movies, I am artsy, I like to write, I enjoy poetry, I used to go to "women's talk" in graduate school and was the only guy there. All of this is normal behavior for a man.

I live as an embodiment to redefining manhood, thereby, dismantling patriarchy.

[NaultD]

https://www.youtube.com/embed/Gq0ZHgKT2tc

I like what you are saying. but there is more going on with this debate beyond what you are saying. If you're aiming for a fair even debate, you're already losing with people that use coded language between themselves as the norm.

[Apope16]

Thanks for the post. Very michael foucault of you.

[NaultD]

I love philosophy but i am vary much in the armchair hobbyist level. Did 2 minutes of armchair hobbyist YouTube watching on michael fouault, fucking awesome shit.

[NaultD]

Awww fuck an hour later, that struggle of power. It's morally neutral and forever changing. fucking hell that is a common thing in all of my opinions here for a long time. Damn today has been a good day because of you.

[ADFSDF1996]

I respectfully disagree

Patriarchy is nothing more than a fictional scapegoat used by 4th wave feminists (SocJus) to justify their misandry and desire to create a matriarchy where men are foppish second class citizens.

If 4th wave feminists truly cared about equality they would be focused on making the world a better place for both men and women, not by hypocrisy where they try to enforce their own standards onto men just because they believe in some pseudoscience that claims masculinity is “harmful”. Likewise they wouldn’t be trying to tell women to be less feminine just because they erroneously think traditional femininity is “weak” and “oppressive to women”.

A lot of this negative behavior the 4th wave feminists erroneously attribute to masculinity isn’t unique to men, it’s displayed by both sexes. And ironically there are more domestic violence incidents among lesbian couples than there are between straight couples. Yet the 4th wave feminists ignore those statistics. If feminists truly cared about equality they would just let people be themselves (as long as no harm is being done) and they wouldn’t be exhibiting the same proto totalitarian ideas they are supposedly against. You don’t need to be a feminist to believe in true equality, most younger women don’t consider themselves feminists yet still support equality. To assume you need to be a feminist to support equality is a false dichotomy.

So, is it possible for society to be improved? Sure but feminists aren’t the right group to make such improvements.

[KrakenAttackin]

Agreed. Letting feminist "fix" gender relations is like the KKK "fixing" race relations.

[ADFSDF1996]

@KrakenAttackin Exactly.

[Godofbliss]

Perfect... funny how women think they should decide how men should behave and then claim it's about making it better for men.

[KrakenAttackin]

@Godofbliss Have you ever seen a woman take responsibility for her failings? Neither have I.

[MzAsh]

I have a lot of respect for men like you. Keep being awesome.

[Apope16]

Awww! THank you!

[nathanp97]

Really? Because I don't respects anyone who believes in the patriarchy 😂

[Apope16]

@nathanp97 That fine my brotha. you can believe that.

[Jennifer_34]

No lady, see my avatar? That is manhood baby!

[KrakenAttackin]

@nathanp97 Yeah, that was my first thought.

[hellionthesagereborn]

Yeah, she is just sexist and as all feminist wanted to have all the privilege with none of the responsibility. For starters our gender "stereotypes", are biological. In fact not only can we see them within infants far before socialization occurs, but in our closest relatives chimpanzee's and other primates.

The other main issue is that she claims "patriarchy" yet has no actual evidence of its existence nor any clear definition of what it is.

On top of that her entire philosophy was based off of the idea that all men oppressed all women, yet not only does evidence show the exact opposite but that she doesn't even give evidence for this happening. In fact she didn't even provide an argument for how this could have even occurred, she simply asserted it as if it was already deemed true and then developed her ideas from their. This did nothing but ensure that every single idea she had that came after was grounded on a false/presumed premise (one that is provably false).

In short, you cannot redefine manhood, its innate, you cannot defeat patriarchy because you cannot even prove that it exists to defeat it.

[AJC997]

What is manhood

[hellionthesagereborn]

@AJC997 Manhood, is not a term I generally use, it was what she and he used and I responded. However in this context it is all of the innate (provably) predispositions found within men whether that be their protectiveness (higher testosterone levels increase protective instincts (not aggression as commonly believed)), courage (males have a higher tolerance for negative stimuli), risk taking (again, males are greater risk takers then women), or their tendency to prefer things rather then people (a trait found in chimpanzees and most primate males).

[AJC997]

If I have zero and have never felt any protective feelings towards women is that a problem?

[AJC997]

Testosterone lackingv

[hellionthesagereborn]

@AJC997 Didn't say it was for women, I said that studies show that the more testosterone you have the more protective you become in general. Their are many factors, predominantly biological, that dictate predispositions of men. If you have psychological trauma that can affect how you perceive the world, hormonal imbalance can also have an affect. I mean the entire debate that was presented is immediately destroyed by the simple existence of transgenders (they are biologically one gender yet feel and identify as another despite social conditioning (meaning their is a genetic component to gender and a biological component (hence hormonal therapay) and a neurological component hence them being transgender to begin with).

[AJC997]

Do you think it’s shameful if a guy pays to be loved

[hellionthesagereborn]

@AJC997 He can do what ever he wishes. A man can never pay for love, only for some ones time and sex. I do not care either way nor does that have any impact on manhood.

[BCRanger10]

I have a strong feeling that this is a troll post, but just on the off-chance that it's not...

First of all, what is "patriarchy"? Second, how are you getting "patriarchy" out of the quote at the beginning of this piece? Third (and most importantly), there is no patriarchy.

Before I continue, some basic facts, which for some reason need to be said out loud nowadays. People are born one of two ways, either as male or as female. They are not interchangeable; one cannot become the other. If you are born a male, you will grow to be a man. If you are born a female, you will grow to be a woman. Men and women are different physically, but they are also different emotionally, psychologically, hormonally, and spiritually. Men and women have different gifts, talents, and abilities to offer each other, their families, and the world. True freedom consists in the perfection of the will via right reason, the discipline and submission of the appetites and passions to the will in order to choose and achieve what is good and true.

This being so, how much freedom does an adult male really have if he'd been formed to reject those gifts and talents, to "resist the patriarchy", and to have his manhood "redefined"? How free is a young boy if he is essentially taught to rebel against that which makes him what he is? What you and those who agree with you are talking about is the opposite of freedom, especially since you are bringing a fictional enemy (the "patriarchy") into play.

This narrative of a patriarchy does more to enslave the minds of women than feminism does to liberate them. What you are doing is pushing it further to claim that the so-called "patriarchy" enslaves and hurts men as well.

We do not need another wave of feminism. We just need feminism to end.

We do not need for manhood to be "redefined". We need it to be reclaimed, encouraged, and celebrated.

[David_Kek]

Buddy, i really do hope you're gay, honestly, because this nonsense will never get you any pussy.
No woman, feminist or not, is ever going to want to fuck you. Men that think and speak the way you do, is an anti-lady-boner devise. Example, this is the type of conversation i used to have with my girlfriend back in the day;

(after filling the car up with shopping ready to drive home) "... we're gonna have sex when we get home"
(smile) '... ok'
"i mean, you know, we don't have to if you don't want to. I mean, i don't want to feel like I'm objectifying you or anything. I respect you as a woman, and value your verbal enthusiastic consent above all else. So... can we have sex when we get home? Please? If you're tired, or have a headache, i'll be a little sad, but we don't have to have sex. We can hold hands, maybe watch sex in the city while you get ready to go out with the girls later. Just please don't bring a guy home... not that i'm trying to control you or anything. You know i respect you. I mean, if you want me to, i will sleep in the spare room if that's the case, and try to keep the noise down. Just as long as you ar-"
(smile with a frown) 'Stop, stop, stop it! Stop killing my lady boner!'

Honesty i am genuinely serious that i hope you are gay. If not, then change your beliefs and do it fast, or else otherwise the best case you can hope for is being a convenience, that cooks, cleans and provides, and unknowingly raises the guy next doors children, while you wonder why your wife almost never has sex with you, or if she can get away with it, why she never has sex with you anymore.

[BlackCatBone]

Well, he would probably find a descent woman and smart woman who shares these values instead of a sexist, gender roles sicko.

[David_Kek]

@BlackCatBone He probably would... doesn't mean she'd ever genuinely want to have sex with him though.
Even the most misandrist feminist you can think of, does not get wet from this, and i'd bet every penny in my bank account that you are no exception.

[BlackCatBone]

You don't even know me. You make false assumptions without even knowing me. How smart lol!

[David_Kek]

@BlackCatBone I am smart, thank you, because i understand something called "biology".
I know it's rude to merely assume you're human, but i'd say it's a pretty safe assumption.

[BlackCatBone]

Lol
You obviously don't understand a thing about me.

[David_Kek]

@BlackCatBone Does this post make you wet?

[BlackCatBone]

Yepi

[David_Kek]

@BlackCatBone If that's the case, then medical science should really start studying you.
Luckily for me though, I've had enough experience with feminists to know they're pathological liars.

[BlackCatBone]

Lol
Yeah, right... 😂

[David_Kek]

@BlackCatBone Yeah... right. You are full of shit.

[LogicBomber]

There is not such thing as the patriarchy and there never has been.
Women's Studies is just indoctrination of simple minded idiots into feminist brain cancer. A male who takes that class is simply emasculating himself, you might as well just cut off your dick. 99% of the shit you learned in sexist indoctrination class is fabricated.
MeToo was a witch hunt and 99% of the accusations were bullshit. It was just a way for entitled assholes to claim victim hood because a male showed interest. Look it up, ffs!
Most of the accusations were "unwanted advanced" for guys simply showing interest.

Actual masculinity does not need to be "redefined", it is the reason we are surviving as a species. It's man-hood that has created, advanced, and maintained societies. Emasculating males isn't helping society and that is evident if you simply look at our current society, it's fucked. The more we let the mentally ill run society, the more fucked up it becomes. These people who believe in fictional victim narratives and feminist fabricated statistics are creating a shit world where males and females can't co-exist.

You think you are fitting in with females because you drink the kool-aid but they don't see you as nothing more than a pawn.

[Anonymous]

"I must live out an authentic life. The defeat of Patriarchal society is not only about empowering women. It is about empowering MEN to be true to who they are without fear of gender disassociation." I think majority of men can at the very least agree with the second sentence. However, many of us also agree we'd like that to finally, actually happen. I've noticed to that often when men try to do so, like doing a hobby, passion,
gaming, sports, etc., just on their own and with other men, their wife, girlfriend, etc. go after them for it and want to do something together instead. I don't see enough people calling that out either.

And while I agree with some of the main points as this, I'm honestly no fan of talking about "redefining manhood" and "us being ourselves" while putting pics that average men are under too much pressure to achieve. The flip side of this would be talking about the "redefining what it means to be a woman" with multiple pictures of bikini models. I think something is off about that. Perhaps that's more part of having a personal interest in fashion and that's fine, but the average man usually doesn't care as much and I whole heartedly think the fashion industry stands in the way of equality usually, rather than helps it.

[Barbaric]

You can try to redefine manhood all you like, but really these ideas come from our biology. You can't fight tens of thousands of years of evolutionary history, and you can't successfully socially engineer a situation where there are no difference between men and women. Most people will still never see the things you mention in this take as masculine, nor will they stop seeing them as feminine things.

Besides, the patriarchy hasn't been defeated. It never has been, and never will be. Only patriarchy builds nations, and all cultures rise and fall. This flipping of the genders always comes towards the end of a culture, whether that's just a result of a culture in decline or the cause. This isn't anything new, this has happened time and time again throughout history - it's just history repeating itself.

[Felicityoyo]

Lots of men hear things like "patriarchy" and "toxic masculinity" and immediately go into defense mode. What they don't realize is these things affect men just as much as women just in different ways. Men are often conditioned to be a certain way that inhibits their ability to be themselves without the risk of being ridiculed by peers and society. Bill Burr's bit of "What are you a fag" comes to mind. On the other hand, that's not to say men who enjoy traditionally more masculine hobbies, interests, attire, etc. Are "bad" or brainwashed by the patriarchy. Men should be free to be who they are without societal or cultural limitations when it comes to gender oriented constraints.

[DonCachondo]

Agreed, lots of men are way too defensive about that. Would you agree that patriarchy also conditions certain destructive habits in women which negatively affect men, other women, and themselves?

[Felicityoyo]

@DonCachondo of course

[DonCachondo]

Cool! I ask because I saw another take by OP about the dishonesty and miscommunication that can arise from women's patriarchal conditioning to be passive and indirect.

[DonCachondo]

Feedback from the girls wasn't too positive :/

[grega239]

You mean the same patriarchy that burdened men with every and all responsibilities, from feeding and sheltering the family to military service?
You mean the same patriarchy that made it acceptable to publicly humiliate men who failed in their roles as husbands and fathers?

And you description of normal behavior of a man.
No, you can't just redefine manhood because it already has its own definition and standards.

Being male doesn't automatically make you a man. You have to earn that.

[AJC997]

How do you earn being a man?

[ovixs90]

So basically what your saying i don't like the world now i want to transform it the way I want it and everyone must follow. Why men should change in the first place? Just because some philosopher said something her theory can be wrong. What is being promoted completely lost sense of who people were for centuries and like believe whatever you want? If a person feels or thinks he is an alien so then he is because he feels like it. Such society won't exist for long with suck sick thinking. Just because your LGBT doesn't mean everyone must be.

[Anpu23]

I read the "Second Sex" and struggled with it greatly. Many of her conclusions and assumptions did not match both my understanding and experiences. But if you got something out of it then good on you. I personally believe that Patriarchy theory as put forth by her is a myth, and I often use her book to deferentiate between the social structure of patriarchy (a society ruled by men) and feminist Patriarchy theory (a society ruled by men for their own benefit at the expense of women) which is demonstrably false.

[MackToday]

The problem you are going to run into is that manhood is not something we created, its something that came from nature. Men are the way we are because we evolved to be that way over a very long time. Women don't want a man in pink and heels. What you're calling "patriarchy" is the natural order of the universe. You can not simply pretend it away.
Something like you are talking about would take a half a century of hard scientific research into genetic alteration , breeding, studies and more studies before you created something that was devoid of "patriarchy" . Then you wouldn't know if the thing would even survive long term. What would it do in the wild? Could it even reproduce or rear healthy young at all? You are meddling in things none of us understand in the slightest and it will come back on us , probably it will mean our death.

[KrakenAttackin]

Exactly. Men and women who fight nature end up losing.

[Liadon]

Yeah, I support this. If you look at the distribution of power in the past we can clearly see that society was a patriarchy and kinda built itself around us, the world has changed a lot then and things we thought were normal should also change with it. This is GAG which is conservative as hell so I'm getting downvoted into the ground regardless if my point holds up logically, but I very much respect people like you and it gives me some faith to know that others around the world see the same way of not letting labels define you and letting you be who you want to be, as why should these labels control how we live?

I've just scrolled through some insanity before seeing this, so thanks for giving me something good to read.

[MountAverage]

The topics gender identity, sexism, feminism, and so on, are complex and interesting topics that need to be discussed continuously.
GaG is a place full of extremely primitive minded bigots who won't allow for a genuine discussion. There's certain trigger words like "feminism", "patriarchy", or "toxic masculinity" that cause nothing but knee-jerk reaction in these apes, dismissing the basics to avoid having to face the complexity that scares them so much and threatens their hyper-fragile man-egos so easily.

Too bad, you make some interesting points. A forum dominated by far right-wingers just won't be a place where it's possible to constructively discuss them. As you can see already, you're being nothing but ridiculed by them. The irony of proving your point perfectly by doing so, is of course lost on them.

[vannefftor]

she's outdated dude. We dont live in a patriarchy. Patriarchy is a term hyperfeminists today use to equate our society with a Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan which are actual patriarchal societies and economies. We live under an oligarchic - slightly aristocratic corporate-socialist (private the net gains - socialize the net losses for the deepest of pockets) plutocracy. Reading Chomsky's Manufacturing consent opens people's eyes in a sad but activistic perspective. Im all for inspiration in philosophy and therebis much to be sair for ancient philosophies; however, when it comes to governement - that must be left up to the social science intellectuals and political scientists, just as the weening out of toxic masculinity must be left up to the ever-evolving-times yadigg.

[Unit1]

But where is the patriarchy when marriage has no benefit but burdens for men?
Where is the patriarchy when during the wedding it's called her day and not their day?
And where is the patriarchy when men can get forced to play alimony and child support for ~ 2 decades long?

Redefining manhood started with MGTOW but that one spoiled as fast as bread but with bitter misogynists.

Some things to think about before using the P word in the USA.

[Unit1]

I found my official patriarchy membership card (This one is SATIRE because it does not affect me. I have vastly different problems in life)

cache.sythe.org/TcnqNWCKn0N3KxU0pxxC7mh0dHA6Ly9pLmltZ3VyLmNvbS9nVWxrNUZXLnBuZw==

[ThisAndThat]

We live in a matriarchy not a patriarchy. Otherwise MGTOW wouldn't exist and I wouldn't be a 33 year MGTOW Monk. And if you believe otherwise you're a sheep not dealing with a full deck. End of story.

If you and or women really believe we are living in a patriarchy, why don't you ask the women, how many would be willing male privileges with men? Men get everything women have as far as rights and privileges, and men get everything women have. Do that as see what answer you get. If men were so privileged, you would see men getting married and dating with women running away from dating and marriage, wouldn't you?

[ThisAndThat]

Men would get everything women have as far as rights and privileges, and women get everything men have.

[mistixs]

Why do men have a greater desire to remarry after divorce than women do? You'd think if marriage and especially divorce are so terrible for men, they wouldn't want to go through it again.

"Among previously married men, 65% either want to remarry or are not sure; 30% say that they don’t want to remarry. Among women who are currently divorced or widowed, only 43% say they may want to remarry, while 54% say they are not interested."
www.pewsocialtrends.org/.../

[ThisAndThat]

@mistixs Unless that's old data they're using I have to call them on that because marriage is now dead in the western world because no men want to get married many not even wanting to date anymore. You won't get the truth from MSM main stream media because they behind feminism pushing it. Marriage is now at a 150 year low in the US and it's due to feminism and the laws against men. MGTOW has become huge and men are being educated.

[DaddyRollingStone]

I think patriarchy is a product of nature and the further we separate ourselves from nature the more contrived, arbitrary and unhappy our lives become. Saying that this model (a model that every established civilization in written history has adopted, even ones with no contact to the outside world) may limit freedom but is freedom really important? Sometimes duty and discipline come before freedom, that's called sacrifice.

Masculinity in modern western society could be redefined but not in the way you probably think. Our society does not promote "traditional" masculinity anymore and you can see the downsides of this very plainly.

[archiz]

That's how I think too. People are complex, fluid creatures why restrict them into stereotypes. It's very limiting.
Also, for example a girl can be a Tom boy without actually having to be gay.
Such as you can find very fem girls who are actually a 100% gay.

To sum it up, you should be able to express yourself freely.

[Liadon]

Something I see people call out too is that 'sex is binary' when genetically we can see the amount of X and Y chromosomes is actually pretty flexible and we can have way more than XX or XY

[archiz]

@Liadon never heard of that honestly

[Liadon]

It's usually what causes down syndrome, and is a form of polyploidy. Covered this in Bio last year but a lot has slipped my mind.

[archiz]

@Liadon ahh
I know you can have more than XX XY
It's the case also of intersex and I know down syndrom
dunno why I thought you meant smthng else

[I-am-a-nobody]

@archiz @Liadon
Probably 99.5% of all people are XX or XY.
And probably 90+% of the other.5% identify as either male or female.
This whole 110 genders or whatever and gender fluidity is just a bunch of really confused people.
I'm a man (period).

[archiz]

@I-am-a-nobody good for you