Is hypergamy killing society?

[Wwwyzzerdd]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun#Mouse_experiments

[TeaMoney]

I watched both videos and read the article

1) What I don't think men seem to understand is that hypergamy makes complete sense when you really examine the risk a woman is taking by having sex with a man. People regularly die giving birth, and rarely does one come out unscathed. Abortions fucking suck too. So does most birth control. (Try taking pills to trick your body into thinking you're pregnant and see how you feel, or get like me and shove a piece of metal in your uterus that gives you intense cramps)

Past all of that, were also probably going to be stuck with majority of the annoying part of raising a child, like cleaning after them and dealing with tantrums. We have no earthly reason to go through all this unless the person we're going to do it with is worth going through this for. And no, that doesn't just mean money.

2) The only thing I got from the second video is "hypergamy can be cancelled out if you know how to play on someone's psychological insecurities well enough" which really just invalidates the entire question you're posing because a concept so subjective and malleable can't possibly be held responsible for the destruction of society

[hellionthesagereborn]

Yes its true that hypergamy is important but then so is a man wanting a younger woman, or to sleep around, or to cheat when he can get away with it. The issue isn't hypergamy itself but rather the fact that its gone unchecked, a woman can jump from man to man while taking said mens wealth and resources either through alimony or through welfare programs which are payed for by men (men pay 200x more in taxes then women (life time)). Its just as if men where impregnating women and then dumping them and women didn't have the options of birth control, abortion, or child support. Or if men divorced their wives, payed no alimony or child support for a much younger woman. It would be highly destructive to society (damaging to children and women) and would make women lose faith in the system of marriage. All of this is happening now, but its currently because of female hypergamy going unchecked (a woman can cheat on her husband and still get half of his belongings).

[TeaMoney]

@hellionthesagereborn lmao there's no goddamn way I'm actually counting welfare as part of your point

You're exaggerating, child support payments are on average $400, which doesn't even begin to cover half of taking care of a child, and the current alimony system just discourages women from staying home with their children, because the career sacrifice they make by being stay at home mothers is never truly compensated. Why stay home to raise your children when your husband could rip the rug right from beneath you and your kids to elope with another woman? Isn't sending your kids off to daycare and making sure you have your own money much more practical? Or not having children at all?

How is sleeping around comparable to "hypergamy"? You have a better chance to avoid illness and pass on your genes successfully if you were to stay with one person. To say that sleeping around or cheating is most advantageous is to imply children don't need their fathers.

[hellionthesagereborn]

Single moms are more likely to use welfare that's what my point was. It rewards irresponsibility and allows the woman to sleep around without consequence, historically she would have been on her own and that would have helped kept things in check but now she can get money out of men through the government to prevent a consequence for her hypergamy. No, I am not exaggerating, its on average about 400$(I believe its slightly higher) because poor men are the ones paying by and large. If your barely making money 400$ dollars is a lot of money, that's why you have more well off men getting taken for so much more. Your not looking at the context of why its only 400 dollars. Again, the reason being that its more likely for some one who is poor to be paying child support. Women don't suffer for being a stay at home mom (which is not common any more by the way) they get money, they get welfare that is available only to them, they get tax exemptions etc all of which is only available to her.

[hellionthesagereborn]

Sleeping around in and of itself is not hypergamy, but when she uses sex to try and lure a man into paying for her life, when she uses sex to try and attract a "higher status" male (who would not normally commit to such a woman) in order to get the law involved and force him to provide for her, that's the problem. I don't think your being fair if you cannot acknowledge that their are women who exploit our laws for their own gain and the mans detriment. There is a reason almost 80% of divorces are filed by women, that 60% of all male filed divorces are due to infidelity on the wifes part while the overwhelming majority of female filed divorces are no fault divorce. Again if the laws favored men and allowed men to cheat on their wives without consequence as it allows women to, if society constantly told men they could do better (as they do for women) and encouraged them to leave their older wives for younger women society and women would not stand for it.

[randomguy2020]

Making children is high-risk for women, so let's choose a guy who looks like Brad Pitt and is most likely unreliable because he has too many women available. Much logics

[nalaa]

Only watched the first video. So about that, first of all it's an oversimplification to say female chimpanzees don't choose. Most non monogamous species mating consists of two interdependent parts, male competition and female choice. Maybe one is dominant over the other but they exist together. In monogamous species such as ourselves it's more complicated because it goes both ways, additionally to male competition and female choice you also have female competition and male choice

Second of all what point was that video supposed underline? Did you hear what he said? Female choice is what developed our species. Women's preferences of men who are fit (as in adapted to their environment) has lead to us being so successful as a species. How is that killing society? Sounds to me like it's more the opposite

[Wwwyzzerdd]

ewedit.files.wordpress.com/.../...clusions-mat.jpg

[nalaa]

oh please what is the conclusion I jumped to.
I answered your question you on the other hand could not answer mine

[Wwwyzzerdd]

You replied without an informed opinion. You only watched the first video then wrote two paragraphs.

[Wwwyzzerdd]

You bypassed the wikipedia article on the mouse utopia experiment, thereby cherry picking you're opinion on this question.

[nalaa]

because there's so many plotholes with the first video alone

[nalaa]

I didn't see there was an article but now that I read it, what does that have to do with hypergamy? It draws conclusions about living in small spaces and about all roles being filled

[Wwwyzzerdd]

The mouse utopia experiment found very similar comparisons to human behavior. Male mice gave up competing and instead chose to self groom. The males were able to breed but chose not to because hypergamous females had already picked partners. Some males were paired in relationships with females but not enough to stop the experiment from failing in later generations. Eventually the entire population died off and the experiment was closed.

Here is another link for you:
www.businessinsider.com/herbivore-men-in-japan-are-not-having-sex-8-15

The Western version of the Herbivore Man is MGTOW. That MGTOW even exists indicates severe societal problems.

[nalaa]

The males were able to breed but chose not to because hypergamous females had already picked partners -- except that's not what it says, in fact it says nothing about hypagamy, instead it blames it on a limited amount of resources (space) primarily and complacency secondarily and it makes a statement in fact about income or resource inequality, not however hypergamy

Don't get me wrong it's an interesting experiment and I do see parallels to human behavior but not hypergamy which you seem to be so obsessed with

[Wwwyzzerdd]

pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/.../viewcontent.cgi

Read the paper. The word "hypergamy" is never explicitly mentioned. That does not mean it is not the underlying cause of the behaviors that led to the population failure.

[nalaa]

Come on this is getting ridiculous. The scientist behind this experiment explicitly state the reasons for the populations collapse and yet somehow you think they're wrong and instead it's all because of hypergamy which is not mentioned once in the article

[hellionthesagereborn]

Because female hyergamy is going unchecked. we now have social intervention that allows women to exploit men while indulging in their hypergamy. This is why 80% of all divorces are filed by women, yet women almost always get alimony/childsupport. This has two affects, one it creats a poor environment for children (they are far more likely to become suicideal depressed, divorced themselves, promiscuis, be impoverished, more likely to get into substance abuse and criminal activity), but it also makes men loose faith in the system of marriage which means fewer men marrying and thus fewer women receiving a stable environment to raise their offspring which then in turn hurts every one. If a man could just dump a woman for a younger woman at any time without consequence legal or social wouldn't that be detrimental (men are biologically wired to desire younger women)? What of the women who dedicated her life to a man only to be kicked to the curb with nothing to show for it?

[nalaa]

@hellionthesagereborn and this is in response to the rat expierement or my original answer? Because it doesn't make sense in regards to either

Divorce is different from hypergamy. Hypergamy is "marrying up" divorce is kinda opposite. And if you marry up your children will actually be better off which is in fact the sole reason women want to marry up to begin with. The guy in the first video explains it quite well, women choosing men that benefit their (mutual) children has build our species

Our society has for a long long time enforced sticking with one partner once you've married them without exception and that control has recently been abandoned. I understand that a lot of people don't like this degree of uncertainty or are otherwise concerned about it. I disagree that it's killing society.

[hellionthesagereborn]

No hypergamy is not marrying up, hyergamy is the drive to go after the highest status male a woman can find. That's like claiming a mans drive to have sex with a younger woman is about marrying down, no he is wired to find a younger woman, not find one woman to spend his life with but to find the woman who can produce his offspring with little effort on his part and have the highest survival riate doing so. Those are completely different things. So when a woman decides she can do better she divorces her husband and tries for a better off man, something which she would never do if it was not for the fact that laws favor her in divorce (hence almost 80% of divorces being filed by women) and society constantly telling her how great and perfect she is and how she can do better. Their is no consequence for her to indulge her hypergamy, its not marry the guy and stick with him its marry the guy until a "better man" shows up, dump the guy your with and try for the new guy. That's hypergamy.

[nalaa]

@hellionthesagereborn haha so you're not going by conventional definitions you make up your own and make a ton of assumptions along the way
If you actually stick to the conventional definition tho you get "Hypergamy (colloquially referred to as "marrying up") is a term used in social science for the act or practice of a person marrying another of higher caste or social status than themselves." from Wikipedia or "marriage into an equal or higher caste or social group" from Merriam Webster so yes it's quite literally "marrying up"

[hellionthesagereborn]

How was what I said different exactly? I said its the drive to go for a male of higher status and or class. Hypergamy exists without marriage (hence groupies). So yeah, that's what I said its women who go after men they think are higher status and are willing to do this even while in a relationship, trying to use men like stepping stones. Hence the insanely high divorce rate, almost entirely driven by women and why they will state they can do better and why over 50% will state they regret their decision after the fact when they find out they couldn't do better and they left a man who was a good husband and a good father, there "soul mate"(there words).

[nalaa]

@hellionthesagereborn You literally said "No hypergamy is not marrying up" which is false. Plain and simple.
That's what it refers to, marrying higher than your status. You claimed that wasn't true and now you're saying it is true but you're extending it also to dating and ehm... admiring?

I'll give you the dating but admiring rockstar is a bit of a stretch. And still in that case hypergamy is actually dating someone of higher status, not attempting to do it. You said earlier that children of women who are hypergamous are worse off which is also just false. Marrying up ensures your children have more opportunities than they did before, which again is why women want that to begin with they want their children to have the most resources possible

[Wwwyzzerdd]

"Here let me give you an outdated definition. You disagree with my outdated dictionary reference? You are wrong!" That's you right now.

Hypergamy (colloquially referred to as "marrying up")

COLLOQUIALLY.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergamy

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCSffzTVYAEu8aG.jpg

[Wwwyzzerdd]

"Hypergamy (colloquially referred to as "marrying up") is a term used in social science for the act or practice of a person marrying another of higher caste or social status than themselves." Literally in the first sentence.

[hellionthesagereborn]

Well its not because hypergamy exists independent of marriage. Your aware that marriage is a socially constructed concept that has not always existed right?

[hellionthesagereborn]

Also hyergamy is the drive to go after higher status males, not the act of, not marrying, the drive. That's like saying lust is having sex with some one. No, its the drive to have sex with some one. Your really trying to reach on this one.

[Wwwyzzerdd]

@hellionthesagereborn The comment was directed at her. I agree it's her sex drive.

[hellionthesagereborn]

I know I was just trying to further clarify it because clearly she didn't understand it.

[nalaa]

@Wwwyzzerdd yes it says colloquial, glad you can read at least. And because it said colloquial I had put "marrying up" in qoutes at first.
And then @hellionthesagereborn it doesn't refer to marrying up at all, which is simply false, that's exactly what it refers to
And as I said I agree that dating is now part of it (or mating in general if that's what you're going with now), so how exactly am I sticking to an outdated definition?

And I agree we shouldn't confuse sex and lust. Lust is the desire and sex is the act. But in this case hypergamy is the act and I'm not sure we have word for the desire to "marry up"

[Wwwyzzerdd]

Ok, that makes more sense now.

[hellionthesagereborn]

You do know what collogquelly means right? here is the definition: used in ordinary or familiar conversation; not formal or literary. Meaning its most commonly reffered to as but not necessarily the actual meaning. i. e. hypergamy did not spring into existence when marriage did, it is a trait that almost certainly predates homo sapien, in fact it was probably found in most of our ancestors. Again, it has nothing to do with marriage, we commonly reffer to it as such because marriage is a thing in our culture, but even without a wedding certificate, women are still hypergamous. If marriage was outlawed right now, women would still be hypergamous. Its mate selection not social construct.

[nalaa]

@hellionthesagereborn well I'm sure marriage existed much longer than the word hypergamy, that should be obvious.
I already agreed that it doesn't refer to marriage exclusively, I don't know what else to say

[hellionthesagereborn]

The term has nothing to do with the act. the act of hyerpgamy existed before marriage. As for you acknowledgint that it had nothing to do with marriage itself, no, you didn't hence me explaining that hypergamy existed before marriage.

[nalaa]

@hellionthesagereborn again I already said I would agree that hypergamy doesn't refer to marriage exclusively. But it does refer to marriage among others.
What do you want? I'm sure you were trying to make a point in this conversation somewhere but it's too long ago for me to remember

[fabulouspancakes]

There is less hypergamy now in Western civilization than there ever has been. Throughout history women married for money because they couldn't support themselves or because their families arranged the marriages for their own financial gains, and this is still practiced to some degree in certain countries. Yet MGTOES complain about Western women being hypergamous, when we're living in one of the least hypergamous societies ever. It makes no sense. Wanting a partner who is "the best you can do" in terms of attractiveness and personality is natural for both sexes. It's not hypergamy.

[Wwwyzzerdd]

I don't see it.

[JohnDoe3000]

Ancient hypergamy was artificially checked with many young men dying in battle or being enslaved/day laborers, and there being limits on how many wives/mistresses powerful men could have.

Modern hypergamy does not have these checks anymore and it's also increasingly more about a man's looks than his wealth.

Now I do think humans have different mating strategies so no, without religious/traditional judgment/shaming not all women will simply flock to the harem of a the local star quarterback, or cuckold their faithful husband with a bad boy. But even if just a few percent more of young men become too sexually frustrated this can spell trouble for a civilization, as we can see right now in the Middle East.

I don't know a clear-cut solution that doesn't plunge us back in the dark ages, but it's certainly something that shouldn't be dismissed out of hand while we work towards equality and a more peaceful society in other areas.

[fabulouspancakes]

@JohnDoe3000 Good points, but I'm just not seeing hypergamy being a real problem in modern society, or at least no more so than it was in the recent past. There is more OPEN divorce, cheating, etc. nowadays, but that doesn't mean more people really lived happily ever after in the past. People tend to marry or be in relationships with those of comparable attractiveness (physical and otherwise), and those at the bottom of the totem poll will either settle or remain single. What I see among "incels" is unwillingness to accept a woman of their own attractiveness level, along with either extreme insecurity ("I'm not good enough for any woman") or an unrealistically inflated self-opinion ("Women are stupid for not wanting a great guy like me"). It's just easier to blame women and "hypergamy" for their partially self-inflicted unhappiness.

[JohnDoe3000]

"People tend to marry or be in relationships with those of comparable attractiveness (physical and otherwise)"

Most, but not all, and the question is how much of that is the result of traditions rather than innate desires and ti can take a long time (say age 30 or 35) before it all starts to even out. Even if only the bottom 10% of guys are left out, with 5% of women becoming crazy cat ladies and 5% ending up in a harem (willingly or unwilligly), at least until they're 30, then that will cause massive social unrest if nothing is done about it (and the old solutions like dying in war, becoming a monk or serving as a galley slave are not around anymore). And yes, it means 10% of women would also be unhappy at the same time, but that doesn't make things better for anyone.

[fabulouspancakes]

@JohnDoe3000 I guess it's the "will cause massive social unrest" part I'm not sure about. Men can still become monks, priests, soldiers, or join other causes and professions that require (or favor) being single if they want. And I think there are actually the same amount or slightly more unhappily single women out there than men, they just are less likely to blame everyone else and loudly complain about it on the internet, or go shoot their classmates. Most unhappily single men don't behave that way either. As usual, the worst people shout the loudest. (Please note that's all just based on my observations, so I won't claim to know for sure I'm right.)

[JohnDoe3000]

Modern soldiers don't die in large numbers and people aren't being forced into monasteries or slavery/day labor (generally men didn't choose those roles, they were forced into them). Yes, frustrated men are more likely to cause unrest than frustrated women, that is the problem. The Middle East has this problem with "surplus" young men starting revolutions, radicalizing or otherwise causing trouble.

[ObscuredBeyond]

I merely try to find a biblical partner who has a compatible personality and personal agenda. I've fond that settling for literally anyone else - regardless of class or caste - only ever leads to misery and treachery.

If they don't share your values on life's (and afterlife's) most critical points, then nothing else will matter in the end. And trying to pretend you can hold together a house made of straw will only lead to bitter disillusionment when the other party ultimately proves unfaithful.

A partner with no faith in anything is the worst thing to have. It is better to be alone for life, than to be with a raging materialist or hedonist who has succumbed to the Hedonist Paradox and not taken heed. If said partner also has ODD, run away fast. They are self-destructive ultimately, and are no good for you or anyone else - no matter what common ground they initially used as a lure.

[Unit1]

Yes, hypergamy is our destruction. Hypergamy is what makes potential relationships impossible. But personally that's not really my problem because I will never associate myself with hypergamous women in the first place.
I hate gold diggers!

There is a bullsh stereotype I try not to believe, that women are hypERgamous and men are hypOgamous. But that's bullsh. Or at least I hope it is.

Then again, I have 0 experience with women. Zero. So don't take my word for it.
Last I heard is that women are humans like we are and should be treated as such.

[Unit1]

Hypergamy seems typically linked to mostly women and is seen in society as acceptable whereas a hypergamous man would be branded a sucking loser because he would marry a woman of higher status (WTF, right?). I think hypergamy is ridiculous in general, male or female. For some reason gold diggers being typically women has been manifested so much, that it's kind of like a normal thing to do for women - by society. It all drives back to the past times, where women were viewed as possessions like you would trade TV's, cars or furniture and women were in the past seen as inferior and objects because they were biologically weaker and more fragile and sensitive compared to the men.

[Unit1]

Even in the ancient times before humanity reached homo sapiens (and even approximately 2000 years after birth christ) women were doing rather harmless stuff for their families and remain out of dangers and still mate with someone, who has more power, wealth, influence and status like today - similar like the oh how much i hate saying this alpha males in wolf packs. A man must create all these with gigantic amounts of work (to attract women (because that's what attracts women?)) where a woman can just dedicate herself as her own body to someone to become part of it and all work she has is to look pretty.

[Unit1]

Not too long ago at least women are able to make their own money and fund their own life for good and I am glad they can and do so, however, the concept of hypergamy still up until today remains and with 99,99% probability, that it will be this way in the future, that it's typically the females, who are the hypergamous without being too much of shamed for it - because that's what society want's them to - back to the kitchen to make sandwiches and provide sex on their commands.
Hypergamy and gold digging, regardless of gender is just bad! Really bad and it harms us as a whole indirectly.

[KnightCross]

my views:
1) nothing specific against it, nice THEORY
2) i don't think it's a good advice to do the "game" the guy explains. that "game" is outdate in the "dating market". that might work with girls who are not worth of marrying though. but one thing i agree with: a man should never put up with illogical shit a woman comes up. but you don't need to be a jerk to do that, you just need to make things clear to her what are the rules and in my case, the rules are Christianity.

by the way hypergamy is killing family, hence killing one of the cornerstone of healthful society

[Machiavelli]

Both these men are useless misogynist assholes. And it's just sad that men do these things and play these games. This is why girls like myself leave them alone.

[Wwwyzzerdd]

I would agree that the second video is a bit misogynistic a bit but that's more the author's perspective.

I'm confused on what games and things you're referencing? That men are reacting to hypergamy? So what's the solution then, men should give up entirely on women like the video states? That's my take away, prioritizing females and relationships is a good way to become miserable. There's more to life and ignoring men just pushes us further away.

[Machiavelli]

There are many women out there that will gladly do what you want, they exist like the ones who attack me when I talk about men, date them. Men want to make happy women unhappy for the sake of ego. But men want to force certain girls to bend to their will even by breaking her and making her useless, sick.

[Wwwyzzerdd]

Eh, in my experience that isn't the case. Females give other men their attention, affection, and love leaving guys like me constantly single. Unicorns don't exist. She chose those men so she has to deal with her own life choices, not my fault that she ignored the one's that would respect her.

[Machiavelli]

Nice guys don't exist, just like I'm not really a princess but I like to make believe.

[Wwwyzzerdd]

True.

[Blitzkrieger]

No you are just looking for excuses for your lack of self confidence.

[Wwwyzzerdd]

Charge of Cowardice

[Wwwyzzerdd]

Bordering on Sour Grapes charge

[Omega_brie]

No, hypergamy creates society. Women dictate what is and isn't allowed to reproduce.

[Anonymous]

No. Get off the manosphere conspiracy sites.

[Wwwyzzerdd]

You say that as if such a thing as the manosphere exists. Those were youtube results for hypergamy, which I specifically searched for.

[Anonymous]

It's really not.