Is Witcher TV Show Looking To Cast A Non-White Actress In A White Role Racism?

[ladsin]

There’s been controversy before about white actors playing black roles and vice versa. This is the newest I heard of and I thought I’d ask what y’all though.

Basically the Witcher’s Cirilla has always been a very white (especially pasty apparently) female with large green eyes and the tv show is now looking to make her black, Asian, or Latino woman instead for no apparent reason. Many of the fans are enraged by this including the Polish who’s mythology is used for the story. Many others are calling the fans racist because they don’t want Ciri cast this way.

Thoughts? Opinion?

Yeah it’s racist.

No it’s not racist

It’s just another abuse of the fans by Hollywood

[amarahorrorstory]

I'd rather Hollywood just give us our own characters that are minorities to begin with rather than hearing people whine that we ruined their favorite characters because they're black or gay now. It's forced too. They're trying to meet a diversity quota. It looks like a late 90s textbook. However, I don't think there is something wrong, most of the time, with changing characters. For instance, Starfire. She's black in the new movie and people lost their shit, she's orange and an alien so I don't see why it matters, she's not even human.

People always want to say "BUT WHAT IF WE TOOK A BLACK/ASIAN/GAY/ETC CHARACTER AND MADE THEM WHITE/STRAIGHT?"

Don't get me wrong, their point has some validity. Why is one deemed okay and not the other?

But if minorities had just half as many famous white/straight characters in films/tv/books, we wouldn't feel the need to change anything. You have SOOOO many characters that are white/straight and you're upset about a few?

But like I said, I'd rather we just have our own to begin with.

Also, I feel like there is nothing wrong with changing characters where their race never mattered. Like Starfire, or Hermione, yeah she's always been white, but J. K. Rowling never said she had to be. Yeah, you may have envisioned them a certain way or they're always been portrayed a certain way, but some characters are interchangeable. I'm not afraid of renditions there aren't how I pictured it.

[ladsin]

I agree, wrote your own damn stories. I don’t care if a character is white, black, brown, purple, or any other color. Write a compelling story and I want to read it. When you steal someone else’s work, culture, and story and start changing it to fit your own narrative people are going to understandably be upset.

As for why there are more white people in movies... it’s largely because of the setting. If a movie is set in midieval Europe there aren’t going to be many black or Asian people in it because their simply weren’t many black or Asian people in these places.

Again, write a compelling story about African tribes and I’ll like it. I’d actually be very interested in it most likely as I enjoy learning about different cultures.

[amarahorrorstory]

But a lot of the characters that have been altered aren't from medieval places or involve historical accuracy and people boohoo the same.

[ladsin]

What comes to mind? I remember a big outcry when all the cast for Gods Of Egypt (I think that was the name) we’re white and not Egyptian. I think that’s understandable, and the director issued an apology about it.

[amarahorrorstory]

I mean, people who live in fictional settings, or where characters are American or not otherwise specified as white or any race for that matter. If it isn't mentioned or obvious that due to historical reasons, I don't personally deem it as a big deal, especially if the story is more about a character as a whole and their abilities, if they're setting matters a whole lot, it usually should stay true.

But if original creators agree with the choice to change their appearance, I also think it's fine.

People say "get your own stories" and the truth is, we do. But they aren't treated with the same value or deemed as interesting as European folklore, which just isn't true.
It isn't at the fault of minorities, but Hollywood trying to cash in on us. We do in fact, write our own damn stories. People just don't see them as money makers, they'll realize in th future that people will pay to see that sort of content but it won't be for years.

Crazy, Rich Asians did well for a reason

[anametouse]

Starfire from that Teen Titans fuck up also doesn't have the correct powers. It's not orange. It's green. The problem is that it's forced and RUINS the nostalgia and the storytelling. Not to mention that starfire in the new Teen Titans doesn't even look like an alien. It almost seems like whoever made the show didn't bother to read the comics or watch the cartoon. I'm sorry it absolutely matters.
No one wants a white actor for the role of Martin Luther King Jr. And for good reason. Same principle applies here

[anametouse]

Oh and yes they should have their own characters I agree. I don't agree with changing a previous character

[anametouse]

Oh and a fictional example. If a movie was made based around AC Origins it would be stupid to cast a white actor for the role of Bayek

[amarahorrorstory]

@anametouse if you're going to use a black person as an example, MLK is kind of a shit one because he was known for black rights. That makes zero sense, but if a characters race is irrelevant to them as a whole, it doesn't matter to me. That's why I used Starfire as an example, I'm not talking about the quality of the film, I'm referring to the fact that it doesn't matter whether she's black or white because she's supposed to be orange and an alien. If people pictured her as a white person, that's their own person issue. I think there is nothing wrong with changing characters if it doesn't effect the storyline or it's origins. If someone writes a story and never clarifies their race or plays no major role in it, such as they mention she's blonde but it's not really all that important then I'm okay if the movie adaptation changes it.

[amarahorrorstory]

@anametouse if a story is about a little Irish settler girl, obviously, her race and heritage is essential. If it's just a love story, or sci-fi story about a witch, I'm not gonna let their race of the person playing a character ruin the whole thing for me

[anametouse]

We disagree entirely then. Mary Jane from Spiderman Homecoming is also an example. They didn't even at least keep her red hair. I'm against changing the characters because some asshole wants to force some racial agenda.

[amarahorrorstory]

@anamatouse have you read anything I've said at all?

[anametouse]

Yes. And I told you we disagree

[amarahorrorstory]

@anametouse on what point exactly? Because I said I don't like when films try to meet a racial quota and I also said if certain features are important to a character as a whole it shouldn't be changed

[anametouse]

You think what they did with Starfire is ok for some reason. Makes me think you never watched Teen Titans. She's an alien yes. So is Gamora. And they actually made her look like an alien and Zoe Saldana does an excellent job. With Starfire, they didn't even bother and the fans see it. I will concede at the point where you don't like racial quotas, we agree there. And when characters get randomly race changed to fill a qouta then you should have a problem. But as you have said you don't if it "doesn't matter". I disagree with you there

[amarahorrorstory]

@anametouse I watched Teen Titans frequently growing up. So your problem should be that Starfire isn't orange, which I agree is an issue, not that she's black. If they used a white girl with no orange, she still doesn't look like Starfire. So what's your point there?

I don't have a problem where I character is portrayed as another race than in previous adaptations, as long as it isn't essential to the story. I think Hollywood's push to fit a racial quota is lazy, but it doesn't bother me because of their race, it's Hollywood that's the problem, not the people in those roles.

[anametouse]

To your first paragraph, EXACTLY MY POINT.

To your second,
It bothers me because it doesn't stay true to the original

[amarahorrorstory]

@anametouse @anametouse so you said "what they did to starfire"? My reason for mentioning her was that her race is irrevelvant because she isn't human, he lack of orange skin is an issue, the actress being black is no issue. That's why she was an example. So you're complaining about costume and makeup, I'm talking about casting. So again, what does your point have to do with mine?

And yes, but lots of movies don't stay true to original, if that's your problem overall fine. You like films to follow their original versions. If that bothers you in all forms from setting, plot, characters, etc, that's fair. But for the race of those portraying characters, where their race has no been clarified of is essential to the storyline, you lose me. While I think trying to meet a diversity quota can be forced and easier done through simply making more films about minorities in the first place, I am not bothered by it so much that it offends me.

[anametouse]

You watched Teen Titans right? You and I both know Starfire isn't some black lady with orange powers. That's the issue. And one could argue it ties in with the casting. Her race is relevant because she is an alien. That's the point, and why the trailer got so much backlash and the like/dislike bar was disabled. That's not the only issue of course Raven and Robin are nothing like they were in the originals

[amarahorrorstory]

@anametouse I'm saying that if she was a white lady with orange powers, the problem stays the same. That's what you are upset about.

No one is whatever the fuck starfire is because she's not real.

So white, black, Asian, no one is what starfire is.

That's what I'm saying.

So why does it matter if she's black?

I agree, she should be orange and look more like her illustration.

But that is a costume and makeup problem.

The problem isn't because she's black.

I'm not talking about the backlash anyway. I understand a lot of that came from her not matching the illustration, and that's warranted.

Complaining about the race of the actress that plays her is stupid because again, Starfire is an alien.

[anametouse]

Starfire is what the original creator made her to be. As for the rest I agree.

[amarahorrorstory]

@anametouse Yes, an orange alien.

[anametouse]

Exactly. Just like Ciri is a pasty white haired woman

[amarahorrorstory]

@anametouse Yes, a human, people actually can look like that.

But no one is the type of alien that starfire is, or her skintone.

Which is why she should have the correct makeup done for it.

But that would have to be done whether the actress is white, black, Asian, etc.

So to complain about the actress being black is absurd, to complain of her makeup, is fair.

If you cannot understand that, I have to assume your playing on the fact that your bio says that you shitpost. Or you genuinely have an issue with a black woman portraying a fictional, orange-skinned, alien female, that no one on this earth naturally looks like, rather than that her costume and makeup are just very poor.

[anametouse]

Awwwee you checked out my profile. I'm honored

[amarahorrorstory]

@anametouse Because I can't genuinely believe anyone who can use the internet without assistance is that dense, good thing for you, I'm bored

[ladsin]

Wait... are you wanting a black girl to play Ciri in white face?

[anametouse]

Well I'm glad you find my profile entertainment to your boredom lady fam. The pleasure is all mine. Seems like there's nothing left to argue

[amarahorrorstory]

I really don't even know who Cici is. Unless she's pizza or her last name is Babcock

[anametouse]

Ladsin you genius. Didn't even contemplate that

[amarahorrorstory]

@anametouse yep, tootles

[anametouse]

I wish there was a like tab for comments because ladsin that white face question was golden

[ladsin]

Ciri, Zireael, is an empress of elder blood in the Witcher series. She’s the topic of this conversation. Are you being obtuse or just not interested in talking about the issue? If not then that’s fine, I don’t feel like forcing anyone.

Based on this conversation though it seems to me like you’re being hypocritical. We both agree that stories should be written with POCs and they can be just as compelling.

I do not think they should change the race of preexosting charachters that people already love. I don’t think they should do it for King TChalla, Cirilla, Thor or anyone else. You seem to be fine with it for Cirilla, but not for others and I don’t know why.

[amarahorrorstory]

Dude I know, the bitch can and should be white, let this die now. If you can understand what I'm saying then I don't know what to tell ya man

[ladsin]

Cool. We agree then. Must’ve missed part of your conversation with the other fellow. Have a good day.

[Branwenn]

I don't think it's racist, this is the Ciri that I know and love, she is badass and a visually striking character (almost everyone in the game is lol) I just hope that no matter who they choose they stay true to how she has been portrayed, I think Zoe Kravitz could pull her off pretty well. ;)

[ladsin]

Umm. You mean the latter pic and not the former right?

I don’t think we’ve yet had any colored women depicted as Ciri.

Do you think it’s be racist or distasteful to cast a white man as the black panther?

[Branwenn]

Yeah, the photos came up backwards when I posted it.

I've seen women of other races cosplay as her and pull it off great.

My stance on the subject is this. They are all fictional characters. If these were REAL living people being replaced by any race or ethnicity other than their own in these films and series I would feel differently.

[ladsin]

It is real living people being told not to show up for a casting call to play a character because of their race. It’s only worse because that character is actually the same “race” as the people being denied.

Cosplayers can do whatever they want, that’s not even remotely relevant to the question.

[Branwenn]

If that is the case then I don't agree with it at all. They should allow anyone audition for the role and choose the best and most qualified candidate.

[ladsin]

Sure, that’s not what’s happening though. They specifically stated that they were looking for a person of color (I think the term was BAME) for the role of Ciri.

[amarahorrorstory]

@ladsin I don't feel like black panther is a good example because a major factor of that character is his race. He's from an African country and BLACK is in his name. It's important. But for characters that are interchangeable it doesn't really matter

[ladsin]

@amarahorrorstory so it doesn’t matter that Witcher’s setting is based on Polish folklore but it does matter that the BlackPanther’s is based on African?

[amarahorrorstory]

I'm not familiar with her character but is her ethnicity a key factor in her story? Because if not, I don't think it's that important.

Black Panther deeply circulates the fact that he is African, it's a key factor in the story, thus the Black Panther thing.

[ThatItalianBastard]

@amarahorrorstory

Since the entire base of The Witcher is depicted from Polish folklore. Her ethnicity does hold a strong merit in the reimagining of the story.

Polish folklore is used for every aspect of the book/video game series. All the way from Alghouls to Godlings, so having one of the definitive main characters not be depicted the same way is pretty stupid in my opinion.

I think the point that @ladsin is trying to make is that doing these types of casting roles hold a double standard towards media and film. People will go mental when a white actor is being depicted in a non-white role, but when a non-white actor plays a white character no one even bats an eye.

[amarahorrorstory]

@ThatItalianBastard did you read what I had said in my own comment? Because I said if it focuses on her culture it shouldn't be altered. Also, I said that if minorities had characters in media as much as white characters there would be no reason to change anything

[hellionthesagereborn]

@amarahorrorstory What percentage of the population is minority? I mean your basically saying we should have it all 50/50 and in order to do so your going to try and erase whites from their own stories, their own culture which is rather screwed up, that's like having a movie about Shaka Zulu and having all the Africans played by whites then claiming that its only because most of Africa is black and your just being fair. Whites are predominant in media because they are predominant in western society being 63% of the US population (17% are Hispanic, 13% are black, 5% Asian) so by your rational if we are being fair we should actually have fewer minorities in our movies and shows not less (which would then be considered "racist"). That also means that you would have to have 50% white people in shows that are predominantly black or Asian, which again would be considered "racist". This is before you factor in that the US is the most diverse nation in the world (Canada is over 80% England 95%

[amarahorrorstory]

@hellionthesagereborn If you didn't read all that I've said on this topic, which it's clear you likely didn't, I'm not going to discuss this again. It's a week old and expired, sorry.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@amarahorrorstory I did, you made up an excuse, the character is from a fantasy version of midievil Poland, so yes it matters just as black panther was from a fictionalized country in Africa, it mattered. By that rational however that would mean that having Edris Elba as Heimdel in Thor is racist because he is portraying a white norse god, from a fictionalized version of a white norse god based off of a real white norse god. So is that an issue and when people bring that up are they correct in calling it racist?

[Celtero]

I already thought it was a stupid thing to make a show after... and I certainly won't watch it if they do that!

I wouldn't call it racist, but it's diversity for its own sake. Come up with other stories and characters that are more "colorful" rather than appropriating roles from traditionally white characters.

Seriously though... what's the goal here, how does it improve ANYTHING besides by making "minorities" feel included in white culture.

pre00.deviantart.net/.../1_by_tophwei-dakza21.jpg

media.comicbook.com/.../...0daguin-1--1133188.jpeg

wtf

[ladsin]

I was really excited about the show. And up until now I’ve loved all the casting decisions. I was slightly concerned with the writing staff because they appeared to be “full woke” but I was hoping they could dilineate between their political beliefs and the show. It now looks like that’s not going to happen.

[Celtero]

I just love the characters from the games, it motivated me to buy some of the books.

I doubt that the show will live up to the other two mediums, and social justice casting only makes things much, much worse. Since it then becomes about showing off their "diversity" rather than an interesting and engaging plot, dialogue, and cinematography.

[ladsin]

Right, but I didn’t have much of a reason to expect the show to be bad until now. I hope they don’t go badly because I really wanted more from the Witcher world.

I was hoping to see a kid go through the trial of grasses and all that, but doubt it’ll happen now

[hellionthesagereborn]

Well would it be racist to cast Black panther with a white actor? Would it be racist to do a movie of Shaka Zulu and have it played by a white actor? According to these same people the answer is yes ergo yes its racist, especially as they are specifically targeting ONLY white characters and replacing them not replacing any and all characters with whom ever is able to play the role.

[ladsin]

That’s the idea.

[Cammy137]

I wouldn't say that it's racist but it's certainly hypocrisy at the highest level. Then again, nobody ever really complains when its white roles being taken, only when its literally any other group of people.

[Benedek38]

Racists rarely believe themselves. to be racist, because it makes sense in their own frame of the world. The creators of the show are racist whether they understand they have bad intentions or not.

[madhatters4]

there is absolutely nothing racist about this. the fact that so many think it is shows just how much people don't understand what racism is.

[ladsin]

It’s not racist to deny someone a job because of their race?

[madhatters4]

we don't know they've denied anyone a job due to their race but the reality is if they only cast white people wouldn't they be denying someone a potential job due to their race?

looking to cast does not suggest that they are not open to other people. a white person can still get another role on the show if not the role they are looking to cast with a minority.

[ladsin]

For this character they’re not allowing white women in the casting. They’re specifically looking for a person of color for this traditionally white role (from books and video games).

They are allowing white people to play other roles (Cavill) but the fact that they’re not allowing white women to play a white woman is quite strange and I’d say it’s bordering on or explicitly racist. Now I normally don’t care about casting for a particular race because that’s keeping true to the story, setting, or time period. For example casting a Brit for Harry Potter only makes sense. But that’s not what’s happening here, could you imagine if they had a caring call for the Black Panther and said “white men only) for King T’Challa? What if instead of casting Africans for Africa they hired only white people to play the African tribesmen? I can hear the outcry now.

[madhatters4]

so by your logic any casting call says they are looking for a male or a skin color is sexist or racist?
(and by the way it does not say it would not consider white skinned people and i will post the specific casting request below)
"searching for a BAME actress around the ages of 15 and 16"
BAME - Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic

[madhatters4]

how does it suggest that one race is inferior or superior?
how does it suggest that all people of a certain race possess a certain characteristic?
as those are the two key components to racism

[ladsin]

“By my logic” that’s why I said it’s a little more understandable in “showbiz” because they’re trying to reflect a particular setting or follow an older story. In this case however it would be what I think people call “appropriation” in which they’re taking one cultures stories and recasting them with a different race which upsets both the fans and the culture that view their characters as being stolen.

Again I would ask what you’d think if King TChala was purposefully cast as a white man.

[madhatters4]

i wouldn't call it racism. i may call it bad casting. but it doesn't suggest any race is inferior or superior. it does not suggest people of a race all possess a certain characteristic

it doesn't qualify as racism by definition of the word racism

[madhatters4]

and what culture would this be appropriating? fictional fantasy culture?

[ladsin]

Polish. You’re aware the story is written about Polish folklore and set in a midieval Poland (not explicitly, but implicitly) right?

[ladsin]

That’s why all the polish I've seen talk about it are upset.

[madhatters4]

i am very aware of what it comes from... implicit folklore or not it's still fiction and fantasy (elves, gnomes, dwarves, vampires, etc, etc.) based on made up stories... but lets not get hung up on

[PlsWork]

That's very weird
In literally all the books and also in the game, she gets the nickname "pale girl". Also, I don't know if a different girl (racial profile) can pull off ashen hair as well as a pale white girl. Every race has a certain look that looks best on them and that's a look that's I'm meant for a white girl.
They will probably make her as she's supposed to be in the end.

[ladsin]

They asked only non-white girls to show up

[ZanyInternetName]

I'll say this: If the actress who best fit the role happened to be non-white and the make-up couldn't quite make her white (think of Michael Jackson in that intermediate period) then I wouldn't call it racism.
If they're deliberately looking for a nonwhite actress, then I think it may be due to racism.
Seriously, why would you need to change the role's skin colour? I have never seen a black Polishman.

[ladsin]

They’re specifically saying they only want non white actresses to come to the casting call or whatever it is

[ZanyInternetName]

Then it may be racism, a severe story rework for some other reason, or the writers got woke. Let's see if they'll get broke.

[NaultD]

Just like books to movies the original is twisted to unrecognizable. So they become a new identity or product. The original creator signed away the rights away. It's up for the show to stand up on its own legs. The free market will decide its fate.

Side note the thing about publicity the more you talk about it the more success the product can get. I play games a lot played an hour of the last whitcher game not really for me. I've never heard about the tv show till this and I'm going to be checking this show out just because of the controversy. That's a big win for show makers. So if you hate something don't help them win.

[ladsin]

The actual fans don’t though. They boycott stuff like this, which is why the industry is falling

[NaultD]

The highest amount of people playing witcher 3 in a single month was 51,000 people. Netflix originals are in the millions in there largest month. So it really doesn't matter what gamers participate in terms of Netflix.

[ladsin]

I sincerely doubt that every Netflix original series has millions of viewers. The Witcher games have sold over 25 million copies. I’m not sure how you’re trying to finagle the numbers here but it just doesn’t work.

[RolandCuthbert]

Didn't you do this thread a long ago? With some fictional role traditionally cast as "White", but a non-"White" person was cast instead.

Can't remember the exact thread. Oh, I think I owe you some responses on a few conversations. I just have not gotten back here. Too busy. I decided that because of all the insane race conversations I get into here, I needed to do something in real life with real people regarding race/culture discussions.

But I don't see how it is racist if you can make a movie based upon a true story with a real person who is not "White", but then substitute a "White" actor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai0WyUwylMU

[ladsin]

I haven’t asked a similar question recently I don’t think, although you recently answered many of my questions so maybe you’re confusing this with something else? I don't know.

I don’t get your latter point either. Was Sgt Thomas depicted a different way in a movie? If so I would think that disrespectful. Same as if we cast a white guy as MLK Jr.

I don’t think those are fair analogies though. I’ve been using the Black Panther here as an analogy. What if the director stated they only wanted white guys to show up for the casting of King TChalla?

[RolandCuthbert]

I don't think it matters Lasdin. This is something that has happened for decades in Hollywood. Casting "White" actors/actresses in roles for non-"White" people. And it is way worse than your fictional example. This has happened in movies based upon true stories when that person is still living walking around giving interviews and accounts of his/her experiences.

Daniel Pearl's Widow was played by Angelina Jolie.

You can claim it is disrespectful. If it is, then it is disrespect that is Hollywood's entire history. The shoe is now on the other foot. I don't see how this is so outrageous now, when it never was before.

static.independent.co.uk/.../pearl.jpg

i.telegraph.co.uk/.../...mighty-heart_1117920i.jpg

[ladsin]

Is your point “they took our characters so now we’re justified in taking theirs!”? If so that would seem rather vindictive.

I think it wrong to do both, recast Ciri and recast TChalla. So... there’s that.

[RolandCuthbert]

No, that is not the point.

My point is that you are simply hypocritical. This has happened since hollywood was hollywood and you are bringing it up now because you feel your group is being exploited.

Welcome to the club. There is a seat for you and yours. . . right over there.

[ladsin]

Nope

[RolandCuthbert]

Hilarious!

Donna Reed as Sacajawea.



Debra Paget as "White Feather".



Burt Lancaster took a crack at it.



Johnny Depp



Jake Gyllenhaal as the Arabian Prince of Persia. Not sure they would mind however.



Since you have fondness for fiction. Merryl Streep.

[ladsin]

Yes, and I say that’s wrong. As I pointed out in the case of that God’s of Egypt movie in case you didn’t recall.

I asked if your intent was, “they took our characters so we’re going to take theirs” and your response was no.

This comment of yours seems to contradict that.

I’ll reiterate in case I wasn’t clear before. “I don’t think King TChalla should be cast as a white man. Similarly, I don’t think Cirilla (a preexisting charachter) should be recast as a black, Asian, Mexican, or other different ethnicity.” Changing preexisting charachters is something that I as a fan dislike.

[RolandCuthbert]

Really? How does it "contradict" that? You are the one who created this thread. Did I create a thread to complain about "White" people playing "Black" roles? Uhm. . . I believe the answer to that is "no". You did it because you identify as being "White" and you feel offended when this happens to your group.

I am not like you in this instance. I do not claim that I am unbiased in my views. I am an African-American male. My "Blackness" and my maleness inform my views. That much I admit to.

So I don't create threads about race and culture and make the claim my views are the only logical, rational, and objective conclusion that anyone of any culture would reach.

It is blatantly obvious that we all have our perspectives and if want to find a way to navigate this maze to something that feels equitable and fair, we will have to listen to each other and stop pretending we are not biased.

[RolandCuthbert]

As for "Black Panther" (I actually think I owe you a response about the film somewhere), it has become obvious that you are clinging to tone-deafness.

What is your fascination with it? Because I cannot guess. Should I create a thread claiming how Thor will never be played by a "Black" female. Or a Hispanic one? Or an Asian one?

It is hilarious that you are making the claim that this one "Black" character is off limits and somehow it is open season on all these supposed "White" roles.

[ladsin]

Haha yes, because I’m a white male I don’t want King TChalla to become a white man 😂😂😂

[ladsin]

Thor is already being played by a woman. So yeah, I’ve got an issue with that too as an avid fan of Norse mythology.

[RolandCuthbert]

The point was that this has always happened. And you just noticed because it is happening to traditionally "White" roles.

Now think about what you are feeling.

And again, I say welcome brother. We have been feeling the same way for decades.

As for "Black Panther", when do you think we will see the "White Wolf"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRPewSGXsPs

[ladsin]

I reiterate, is your point that “you stole our characters so now we’re going to steal yours”? I’m saying both are wrong. Keep characters the way they were written, full stop.

You’re saying that you’ve been upset about whitewashing of your characters throughout history so doing it to white characters isn’t a problem. That’s a contradiction. Stand on principle. If it’s wrong to do it one way say it’s weong to do it the other way. If you don’t think it’s wrong to do it either way then at least you’re consistent.

As for the White Wolf, he’s king TChalla’s adopted white brother from the comics. I don’t see why he wouldn’t be involved in the movies in some manner.

That said Geralt of Rivia is “the white wolf” so I was confused by your comment at first.

[RolandCuthbert]

Thor was not even replaced. He somehow, convinced himself that he was unworthy of wielding Mjolnir. Dr. Jane Foster (notice she is no longer a nurse), was able to lift the hammer. Therefore obtained the mantle of Thor.

No. Thor did not die. He was not re-written. So don't worry your poor little heart. He is still flesh and blood. . . well as far as pretend comic book character can be flesh and blood. And he is still walking around in the Marvel Universe, just as formidable as he always was. Basically invulnerable and unbeatable. He is still the Asgardian champion of Strength and Thunder. He is still Odinson.

Jane Foster merely had the mantle. I think she is actually dead now and the mantle passed back to Thor again.

Thor #1 was released early this year. You should get the comic so you can stop sweating it.

cdn.vox-cdn.com/.../5882657

[RolandCuthbert]

Sorry about that. The image was cut off. This is Thor in his new getup.

[RolandCuthbert]

Since he is my favorite hero. Let me give you the complete cover.

[ladsin]

Meh, I don’t read American comics I was just informed that Dr. Foster picked up Mjolnïr and called herself “a Thor” as though it’s not a name.

As for them possibly going back to a man Thor I wouldn’t be surprised. They got a lot of negative feedback about it.

[RolandCuthbert]

Yawn. . .

They went back? Because of feedback?

You are hilarious. So just how long was she going to be "Thor", when she was dying of cancer?

LOLx10!!!

[MrKinktastic]

The motivations seem to be purely racial ones but its pretty grey as it is an interpretation of the story in a new artform at the end of the day so they can do what theyd like. I understand why the Pol's are upset though and sympathize with them in this case theyve been pretty screwed over and devalued as a group too.

I think the problem is that almost all the writers are white males. Im extremely hesitant to use characters from outside my own group/familiarity because I dont want to assume I know what its like to be them and represent them unfairly. I've only ever been a white dude so its through conversations and extrapolation that I have to build other characters. Its hard and in this racially charged time its a dangerous thing to do if you dont like getting hate. We need to work at diversifying the pool of writers a bit and the diversity in roles available should follow. Maybe Im being too optimistic though.

[ladsin]

Most writers of the show are white males? That can’t be what you mean because it’s inaccurate. Most writers in general are white males? Uh... maybe, I couldn’t say although just as a portion of the population that may make sense.

“They can do what they like” I guess? And the fans can get upset by what they do too. That’s how the world works. If you take something and hope to make money off of it by leeching off it’s popularity, but then distort the story to push your own ideological stuff then you have to expect the fans to be angry.

Why not just write your own story? Why take characters we already know and love and change them?

[ladsin]

For example do you think people may be upset if I recast Wonder Woman as a man? Black Panther as a white female?

[MrKinktastic]

Not the show specifically, the report on it Im remembering was a study of the writers in Hollywood. At the time, a few years ago, they were overwhelmingly white males. I doubt this has been resolved yet.

One solution was doing blind hires where they only read their writing to make the hiring decision. Jon Stewart tried that I think but it was a complete failure, all the ones they would have hired ended up being white males. My assumption was that we tend to like people who sound like us so the reviewers were more likely to pick someone similar to themselves based solely on their writing style and word choice.

I totally agree, its art do what you want and the fans will react how they react. I do think voting with your dollars is important.

[ladsin]

What’s the problem with the majority of writers being white? Is there a problem with the majority of them being Jewish?

[MrKinktastic]

Its a problem if we are concerned about anybody other than white males having roles in film and television for the reasons I mentioned about people having trouble writing characters different from themselves.

If they were 100% anything it would raise my eyebrows, it should ideally be a varied group as it is hugely impactful on culture.

[ladsin]

What about ~65% of writers being female?

[MrKinktastic]

As I mentioned I'm basing this off of a report I saw a few years ago so they may well have tackled this problem already.

I don't think shooting for any particular % is a good idea as you just end up putting unqualified people in to those positions which gives the whole group a bad reputation. I think the best way to go about it is remove as many barriers to entry as possible then help create channels for people with less opportunities to get into those positions. Something like a university scholarship for screen writing aimed at a minority your company could use more perspectives from and grooming somebody that way. It may sound a bit unfair but it will take a bit to level things back out after they have been out of whack for so long. I do think we have to be careful not to punish people for their ancestors mistakes too though.

[ladsin]

Would you then advocate for a male only scholarship for writing?
(This is going slightly off topic but it’s still an interesting question)

[MrKinktastic]

I would if there was a clear need for it. There is a clear need for male nurses because they can lift heavier loads so I would say a nursing scholarship for males would be appropriate.

At the end of the day you can put up a sponsorship for any reason in my opinion. My question would be how would that scholarship benefit the group as a whole. If its already 90% white males then I think the scholarship would be better served elsewhere. Again though you can sponsor whoever you'd like. I was moreso just saying that was one approach to try to tackle the issue of a lack of good roles for minorities in film and television.

[ladsin]

Alrighty, thanks.

But the writing demographic is ~65% women just to clarify.
Have a good day!

[MrKinktastic]

In which writers group though? Screenwriters in Hollywood? What percentage of those are getting their screenplays greenlit?

[ladsin]

Just as a whole
datausa.io/profile/soc/273043/#demographics
Is where I got my info

[MrKinktastic]

Ok, when I look at Hollywood specifically I'm only seeing women at 14% in the top 500 grossing films in 2016, which would suggest a problem to me. That being said I don't know if these statistics are biased or not so it might be worth a bit more digging.

womenandhollywood.com/.../

[ladsin]

I don’t know about that. I don’t see any barriers preventing women from directing or writing and just because there’s inequality in outcome doesn’t mean there’s inequality of opportunity. Perhaps women are just interested in writing different things. My friend is a well published writer and she just prefers to write on music.

[MrKinktastic]

There was a 64% rate of sexual harassment, up to and including straight up rape among those women so I see some pretty clear barriers to entry.

[ladsin]

Where did you see that statistic on there? I did a quick check and couldn’t see it. What section was it under?

[MrKinktastic]

I couldn't find where I came across the original one, it must have been while I was searching for the one I linked earlier and I thought it was the same page.

This one is a sample group of 834 women in Hollywood and 94% were sexually assaulted or harassed. 10% were ordered to appear naked for auditions, 21% were forced into a sexual act, 29% had someone expose themselves to them, 69% received unwanted sexual contact (the number is a bit ironic though), and over 87% had unwelcome sexual gestures jokes or comments made towards them. That sounds like a pretty big barrier to me.

www.usatoday.com/.../

[MrKinktastic]

I definitely would say no to a job with a 21% chance of being raped.

[ladsin]

I must admit I’m a tad skeptical “more than one-third of women surveyed weren't even sure that what happened to them was sexual harassment.“ this seems to be a redefining of harassment as I think most people being harassed are aware of it.

That said if rape is a big problem in Hollywood (it most certainly is) then that needs to be addressed. You notice though that you’re moving the goal posts right? We were talking about writers not actors

[MrKinktastic]

Sure, we could debate the sexual harrassment one but still 21% were forced into a sexual act. Even if none of those other stats existed that would be huge.

[MrKinktastic]

I'm not a big fan of the mob mentality and punishment without due process aspects of the #MeToo movement but I do think it is doing some productive work in changing attitudes in Hollywood. The effects will take a while to be felt though and I think there are some significant issues as I mentioned that need to be addressed in the movement. I'm also suspicious of sabotage as I always am, but I'm just a bit paranoid.

[ladsin]

They most certainly claim that. Like I said I’m a tad skeptical as I don’t know anything about the research.

That said Hollywood has a very well known sex problem.

[englisc]

I think it's great that people are mixing up these people and including other races. Race is just a social construct right? We're all one, we all originated in Africa, we all bleed red.

I can't wait to see this film about Martin Luther King:

steemitimages.com/.../...5355016195326304988_n.jpg

[hasrett]

Lmfao. 😂

[Berethor]

It's a abuse of the fans more than anything, and it's already a very bad sigh for the TV Show, unless the actress would be able to do a extraordinary work.

tvtropes.org/.../TheyChangedItNowItSucks

tvtropes.org/.../AbilityOverAppearance

[TadCurious]

This kind of controversy is what happens when people become obsessed with race/skin color. The liberals are putting every movie and TV show through a litmus test these days. They demand that the show or movie meets their demands for their favorite buzzword: "representation." And they and only they are the ones who get to decide what the acceptable quotas are.

[anametouse]

Naahhhhh first they fuck up the Geralt cast now Ciri has to be a different skin color because social justice? As a fan of the games. I refuse to watch this obvious fuck up. Nothing is racist about wanting to stay true to the original

[ladsin]

Why didn’t you like Geralt cast? I thought Superman would do a fine job

[anametouse]

Fuck up is a bit of an exaggeration. I'm concerned that he won't be able to pull off the voice acting of Geralt. The scratchy lack of emotion a witcher has in the lore

[ladsin]

Mm that’s possible, but he’s a pretty good actor. I was surprised they got such a high profile guy and he’s a big Witcher fan so I thought he could do it justice.

[anametouse]

He might. But I don't think he alone can do it now, considering Ciri

[ladsin]

Well that was the thing. He’s a big Witcher fan, the head lady of the development promised she wouldn’t push this stuff because she was feeling like an activist etc.

I had high hopes going into it, but now that’s all been dashed to pieces. I honestly was wishing for a diffeeent story. Show us a kid going through the trial of grasses, maybe a peer from the Ursine school who runs into Gerald later in life or something, but now I’m just depressed.

[anametouse]

I understand your pain. They took Teen Titans down and now the Witcher too. All we can do is hope now.

[ladsin]

Eventually they’ll go broke and they’ll have to learn, but for a lesser known story like Witcher I don’t see them being willing to reattempt after it fails. Star Wars they’ll have to change, but I just see this dying.

[anametouse]

Yea I agree. It's very unfortunate such a creative world and characters are getting fucked over. It's more than likely going to take awhile before some director considers returning to it

[Chaz269]

Interesting and complex issue.
Someone owns or owned the rights to the storyline, I'm sure. Fans need not be outraged at the buyers, but the sellers.
That being said, it's all about the money in the media, no exceptions. If more people will buy into a diverse story, that's how they'll sell it. There's an abundance of research supporting what sells and what doesn't. Producers rarely bet against those odds. If an all-white cast sells better, they'll sell it. Problem with entitled whites is that they refuse to acknowledge that they're a minority in a global market. Better get over that, or stop voting for capitalism. In the end, capitalists will sell anything to anyone for the best offer, no exceptions. Can't have it both ways, snowflakes; get over yourselves!

[ladsin]

There isn’t money in it yet they keep doing it

[Chaz269]

That's a tough point to stick on, especially if you expect to prove it. Lots of movies & TV shows are integrating diversity quite successfully. Of course there's money in it. Have you found evidence to suggest they are failing strictly because of diversity? I'd like to see it if you have.
Lots of "fans" complain about silly stuff. Some come around, some just keep complaining. The Marvel comics' Wolverine has always been written as a diminutive person. Literally every teammate and opponent for decades has referred to him as "shrimp," "little guy," "runt," and the like. Fox casts 6'2" Hugh Jackman. He proceeds to become one of the most beloved actors to portray a Marvel character, and his portrayal is officially iconic. If the writing and acting are good, they'll find a market and they'll make money, for sure.

[ladsin]

Google GetWokeGoBroke. It’s a very specific type of change that has been ruining the comic industry for some time.

[hasrett]

No, I don't think it's racist. Just dumb.
If they stick to the character being white and cast exclusively white actors, would that be racist? You'd say no because the original character is white, but generally I think whoever creates TV show/movie has every right to shape the character physically and psychologically, whether they're starting from scratch or basing character on pre-existing one, as they wish and cast actors accordingly. For example that Fat Amy from Pitch Perfect. I don't remember anyone raging because skinny actress wasn't picked to play her role. Clearly race is touchier subject, but the point is the same. There is always going to be some sort of discrimination because of that. Call me racist/ backwards/ discriminatory because of that, but I am okay with it.
I do think it's annoying that they even felt the need to change her race. I hate when movies change the looks of the character they're based on, so from that point of view it's pretty dumb and unnecessary.

[ladsin]

Was there a pre-existing character for pitch perfect? I thought those movies were self made not utilizing some pre-existing story.

I think this is important “whoever CREATES” I most certainly agree. If you’re creating a story put whoever the hell you want in it. Hell put a purple alien in it for all I care, but if you start stealing and changing other people’s work because it has a large fan base obviously the fans are going to be upset.

[hasrett]

No there wasn't, which is why I said ''whether they're starting from scratch or basing character on pre-existing one''.
It's not stealing other people's work. If they base a movie on another character they'll either be allowed by the copyright owner or they won't even need it, in both cases, when it comes to the movie, they are the ones creating
I get why fans are upset, I don't like it when they change characters like that either, but I wouldn't call it racist.

[ladsin]

Can you imagine the lynch mob waiting if an author said “I don’t want my character to be black”? I can.

Do you think the original Captain America artist and author would really be ok with Captain America being turned into a Nazi?

[hasrett]

Oh, there would definitely be lynch mob. Without a doubt. But it doesn't really take away from what I said. It would just be hypocrisy.

No, I don't think Kirby and whoever the other guy is, but if they are dead, and they are... someone else is in charge of making that decision. And making Captain America into a Nazi wouldn't actuyll take away anything from the original Cap. America, just create another character based on him.

I'm fine with looks being one of the criteria for casting actors. I am annoyed when they don't respect original idea, but I wouldn't go any further than annoyance.

[ladsin]

They did make cap a nazi for a while until public outcry made it stop. They also made Thor a woman, captain marvel a woman, Spider-Man a woman, and a few others that don’t immediately come to mind where they hijacked a pre-existing story rather than making their own.

[hasrett]

Making Cap a Nazi is quite ironic though hahaha.
Yes, I believe this was already a topic on another question of yours. All those politically correct movies are unnecessary, but I guess they have their targeted public.

[PixiSophie]

They just want to please the whole lgbtqia+ thing , I think it's not necessary and they should not change things for no other reason that that

[Sucram]

Racist, no, a dickmove, yes. Storyteller always change details of stories they tell, that's normal. Being pissed about changes to a story you like is normal as well.

The big problem is that they change polish cultural heritage, while not being part of polish heritage themselves, and make the new version widely known.
And even if they were polish, it would be a problem.

[MrAdams]

Today's SJW PC culture is getting out of hand... why they have to force it? i don't think i ever remember a black character that was played by white actor... yet all whites and males are turning black or changing gender completely...

[ladsin]

In the past there certainly were, like the first Othello was a white guy in black face, but were talking about today and not a few decades ago 😂

[MrAdams]

oh, i didn't know about it :D i have to look that up :D

[Smegskull]

I don't think it's racist. I think the justification given can be racist (i. e. to promote diversity).
Some roles have an inbuilt race (e. g. Huckleberry Finn) but for most roles I'd rather they pick who is best at the part rather than who is best for the political image of the studio.

[ladsin]

Sure, but this character has always been white and especially pasty at that 😂

For a new character I doubt anybody’d give a damn

[Smegskull]

Are they described as white in the book? Is their whiteness a character point in the book?
Again I take greater issue with the reason for the decision than with the decision itself. I suppose you could say the setting heavily implies a race but I don't know how true to the setting the show will be.

[ladsin]

They’re polish tales and Ciri is specifically stated to be especially pasty. Geraly is as well and you can look at the book covers and the games for reference.

Further though race does appear to be a factor in the games specifically between the warring factions.

The writing staff guaranteed that they would stick closely with the established lore.

The reason is certainly a bigger issue though. It also worries me because it seems to imply that they’re more concerned with some ideological point than representing the story or building upon the story weve been given.

[ThatItalianBastard]

Personally I think it's a good sign that the changes aren't racist when the show writer is reading through all books based on the televised creation and stating that she is not changing ethnicity and gender for the sake of following a liberal idea. It shows that she cares about the story above all else.

I understand that the Witcher series holds strong depiction to polish folk lore (one of the main reasons why I like the series) but the idea that someone is a poor pick for a major role not because of her acting talent but because of her skin color and ethnic origin is appalling. I hate hearing when people spew the bullshit of "well why couldn't this character be something else, Hollywood is white washing film and media" and honestly hearing the argument being spouted with another skin color fueling their rage doesn't excuse the outrage.

[ladsin]

She said that, but now she is changing characters and lore because she is feeling liberal.

Sure, pick the best actress for the job, but they’re denying white women the role specifically because of their race.

[ThatItalianBastard]

Yeah that is something I don't agree with. I read her tweets and it seems like she cares for the story. But if it is true that's he is denying a woman to play a role bases on her color then that is disgusting.

[SketchForger]

Wanting diversity is one thing... But the fact that white washing in movies is also a problem, isn't it interesting that this is getting so much attention as opposed to most cases of white washing?

Do I agree with it? Yes and no, because it's not their story, but it's also their movie and if they decided it's the role of a minority then that's how they decide that.

It's like black Annie. They made that decision because the original play talked about an orphan white girl as if it was a common thing where as a really common thing was Black children being left behind.

But people would still consider Annie a "white" role.
Why do people care the race of a character so much to the point of not only limiting whomever can be casted, but also giving a shit if a character is going to be white or not?

[ladsin]

I’m not sure I understand your point. If it’s racist to change stereotypically a character to a different race then Annie being “blackwashed” would just indicate this trend goes further back.

People are pretty upset about a white man wearing black face to play Othello and I’m pretty sure that if we cast the Black Panther as a white man, or recast all the Africans of the film as white people in Africa there would be a lot of outcry.

I don’t care about the race of the actor. Some of my favorite movies have black protagonists. I do have a problem with changing the lore and characters to fill some quota or ideological stuff.

If you want a minority protagonist more power to you, write your own story. Minoroties can have awesome stories, stealing other people’s stories and just recasting the characters as a different race or gender is unimaginative at best.

[SketchForger]

From a creative standpoint, sure it's unimaginative.
Quota wise or ideology wise as you said in. Y opinion it feel as if it's condescending to specifically make minorities s the only qualified for the role, and not to white people, to minorities.

I personally disagree with it, but it's also something people surprise me with when they give a shit.

As for the black panther analogy, sure, that's fair, but it is also something that didn't happen when it comes to white washing, making that Egyptian gods movie with all slightly tan white people.

Making a single character Asian casting wise? It's obvious nobody is going to change their minds, so as film makers they made their decisions, and to be bullied into changing that casting option would be interesting considering the history behind things like that.

[ladsin]

I think we agree on most of it. Certainly unimaginative. I’d probably go a step further though and say it’s racist to ban a person from performing a job because of their race. The film industry may be a little different in keeping characters as they were written, but this is the opposite. Banning someone from performing a job that’s specifically supposed to be of that particular race is baffling. “White only casting call for new Blade movie” could you imagine?

What Egyptian movie are you thinking of? If Gods Of Egypt they received a lot of backlash and issued an apology for ethnically inaccurate casting.

[Benedek38]

Please show me examples of whitewashing in the last decade that wasn't followed by major backlash and nox office failure!

[SketchForger]

@Benedek38 whitewashing is not always the result of box office failure, it can also be due to poor marketing, lack of interest in the subject material, or simply put... Being a shitty movie.

Ghost in the shell, (according to a few of my friends since I don't get out to watch movies very often cause... Money.) was boring, had a plot that made no sense, and the special effects were dry and unimaginative.

The reason that movie didn't do as well as people hoped was because it was a movie that tried to appeal more to an audience who watched marvel movies or action flicks, rather than those who watched the original film.

The last Airbender was a failure because it was boring (to be polite), it put the source material through a paper shredder from the 80's, the special effects would have been more convincing if all them were practical , and all of the actors were so wooden that I'm surprised that Aang didn't pick up Katara and use her as a staff.

[SketchForger]

@Benedek38 my point being that some movies are so bad that they just happen to have whitewashing as their least complained about offense.

A wrinkle in time (even though I thought the movie was a little disappointing despite being visually spectacular) received a lot of controversy for making the main character black. Because people who read the book, by ethnocentric projection, assumed the main character was white, even though the book NEVER said or implied the race of the main character.

It all come down to three things I believe that filmmakers need to consider.

1.) Making a movie that's relatable in a human way, rather than a cultural way.

2.) Having casting team that chooses to be inclusive rather than Contrarian.

3.) try to AVOID making every form of literature/ cartoon/comic book into a live action movie, because no matter how you present it, so own is always going to complain about the faith to the source material, and completely copying a film to live action is not fun.

[Benedek38]

But the fact remains that they weren't worth making a fuss, about.
In 2018, we can say that whitewashing is in no wY profitable. At least not against black people. Is that a correct statement?

[Budvizer]

I've heard that they used the word BAME actress because they are using a polish girl in the UK and that is a minority there. I just care about them portraying Ciri accurately, which would be a pale girl with green eyes and ashen hair. I am going to be pretty pissed off if they did find a black or Asian actress for her simply because she is not and portraying her as such just goes against the lore for the sole purpose of some dumb SJW's political agenda. This show has so much potential so I hope they don't blow it.

[ladsin]

Yeah, no way that’s fucking true. The BAME casting call was released about a week ago now. The Witcher fans were furious and let that be known.

I think just yesterday the “oh we meant polish girl” spin came out but I haven’t read about it yet. Just woke up