I want to hear your personal experiences with dark feminism. And I want to know, do you think I need to get involved in this?

[AmandaYVR]

Justice should be blind

But it often isn't

I hope I don't regret asking this.

It has been brought to my attention that the often unspoken, unrecognized, yet all-too-common issues of what I may now begin calling 'dark feminism' (not founded on principles of equality and equal rights, but lean towards hatred and retribution), and misandry, are becoming an untenable ill in society, and is having a destructive and eroding effect on gender relations.

Examples:
Me: This gender division tension really needs to end.
Male: Yeah the only way the gender tension crap is going to end is if strong WOMEN stand up to this modern feminism bullshit. Guys are easier for feminists (and white knights) to dismiss. But smart women need to call out what this crap is doing.
Women, would you hold your female friend accountable if she was hating on all men to the point of misandrist in the name of feminism?
Why dont males stand up for me at my work when other males bully me?

I am currently questioning if I should attempt to take on this extremely heated and challenging topic but first I need to speak with more men, good men, to gather information. I personally haven't seen or experienced this but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I can say is that I don't personally know a single female like this, and I do know quite a few good men whom I believe would not deserve these accusations and attacks.

We often must pay for the sins of others; sins that we, ourselves, did not do. We represent others, whether we like it or not, or whether it is truly just.

I am therefore giving you a forum to discuss specific instances which you have experienced. But - do not make this into an endless, non-specific tirade filled with generalities or hearsay. I want honest, constructive, concrete examples.

I am not giving the anon feature here. Come at me peaceably, speak your mind, but do it constructively. I will hear you out.

Updates

+1 y

Thanks, everyone, for your thoughtful comments and taking the time to respond. I appreciate that everyone held it together and didn't get nasty. It was very constructive.

And esp thanks to @drunkass @Anpu23 for the videos. They were illuminating. I hope others take the time to watch them as well.

It is too easy to fall into a trap of very narrow thinking. The women in these videos have more than proven their point on that, and have disrupted what are all too common mindsets of prejudice.

[Anpu23]

You've asked for personal experiences. I think I have spoken about a lot of these previously.
1st. My mother was a 70s bra burning feminist. As a very young child (6 or 7) I saw it as an adult version of girls vs boys. The playground girls rule boys drool kind of thing. Until I saw a dramatization of a demonstration in New York, where women were doing a mock hanging of business men in a park. And seeing my mothers reactions showed me how deadly serious this was. As a small child I literally thought that my mom wanted to kill boys, I was a boy and therefore my mother secretly wanted me dead.
2nd my mother studied theater and was quite vocal about how rape and domestic violence were tools of the patriarchy (before that term was in vogue) and that only men were domestically violent and only men raped. This reinforced the feelings that I was inherently bad, that my gender was flawed and I didn't deserve to live. My mother posted the famous picture of a fish riding a bicycle (a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle) it was also about this time that I was beginning to go through puberty. I attempted to take my own life by jumping off of a second story balcony with a rope around my neck. The rope snapped and I sprained my ankle. My main reason was I didn't think I deserved to live because of my gender.
3rd when I was 13 my mother went through her second divorce (she's been married 8 times) and I was shipped off to live with my grandparents. After sneaking out one night I was kidnapped, held for three days and tortured. Part of that torture was a leson in how the household iron was a symbol of women's oppression. I have scars from that lesson on my shoulders to this day.
4th because one of my kidnappers didn't want to be involved in my murder I was released. One of my first acts was calling a feminist controlled rape crises hotline. Where I was mocked and dismissed by the person on the other side of the phone because I was a boy and my assailants were girls/women.
5th It wasn't until "the world according to Garp" with Robin Williams that I realized that I wasn't the only one who saw the underlying hate and misandry in the movement. Until that time I had the cognitive dissidence of having lived experiences that were contrary to the "truths" I was being told.
I could go on, and I have in other places. But it sucks being told your inherently evil, you are simultaneously both in charge of the entire world and helpless to change anything. That any gains you make a the direct result of oppression and privilege that you simply do not see or have any way of experiencing (myth of male power). Also the fact that you're being told that you are privileged while seeing many rights systematically denied you due to feminist lobbying and action. (Rights such ss presumption of innocence).
Anyway thanks for asking.

[Anpu23]

Have you seen this?
https://youtu.be/3WMuzhQXJoY

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

God that's awful. If you don't mind my asking, how are you doing these days? There's a groundswell of people fighting back against the sort of anti-male ideology you had to live through. Jordan Peterson is a good shout if you need a reminder that those psycho feminazis aren't running unopposed. There's nothing wrong with being a man! I'm sorry you had to experience those traumas as a kid, and I hope you're in a better place.

[Anpu23]

@SomeGuyCalledTom I am man. Thank you,. Im well aware of Jorden Peterson as well as the Honey Badgers, and other groups. I also write both here and other places about my experiences. It's good. Thanks again.

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

Glad to hear it mate

[LeoElias]

Dang man I'm really sorry that happened to you. I knew feminism was prevalent back then but I didn't think it was on that level. I feel your mother may have failed you in a way. She could have raised you to treat women right but still she could have shown you love, support and show that you can make a difference and are worth something. I guess to look at the men who have done wrong in a bad light but not to feel related to them. Just to see them as an example of what not to be I guess. It's crazy that you were kidnapped by those insane broads. I hope life is better for your now. Maybe you found a wife that appreciates you, you deserve it. I would like to give you some hope and say that not all women are like this.

[AmandaYVR]

Your experiences are tragic, and your story powerful. I did know much of this, but I'm glad you took the time to write it again here. One thing that strikes me, from reading yours and others', is just how massively we are impacted by our parents and parenting. It really bothers me how many people, even today in this world with such variety of birth control methods, continue to be so reckless and offhanded about sex and potential pregnancy. That's a huge topic, though, and not one I have any interest in tackling; but I just wanted to say that your mother probably should not have had you, did not deserve you, from a mental health and stability perspective, but of course if she didn't, we wouldn't have you in the world, and despite all that you have been through, and done, you have grown to be what I imagine is a good man. Fighting often dire obstacles, and surviving, coming out the other end still relatively intact, is an accomplishment in and of itself, regardless of what happens henceforth.
You could be a lot angrier, more outwardly bitter, and have a voice that is destructive, which you could so easily put out into the world. But you don't (to my knowledge.) You've found your place in the world, and seem calm and tempered, and have some solace in your artistic work and hobbies. I am impressed, as you are one who has managed to make art not only hobby, but a valuable resource. I have such a vision of you, tinkering away in your garage, hammering and building (with your kilt.) One has to find some sense of purpose, and joy, in these, perhaps smallish activities in the grand scheme of it all, but it is what we all earn, to survive this thing we so simply call life.

[AmandaYVR]

No, I had not seen the video and this woman. I just watched it. I love her! She's wonderful. I will pass this along here in the future, on GAG. Thanks for introducing her to me.

I feel good right now. A bit tired, my head is full (watched DrunkAss's videos as well), and so time for something less mentally draining now, but I feel I have a better grasp on it now. I hope not to 'fight another day', but to live off of this newfound sense of enlightenment, and maybe a little hope. I don't know. There are so many problems in society today. I tell myself there always have been, look into history, many answers are there, but it's hard. Disappointment, especially in humanity as a whole, is difficult to bear. Perhaps the only solution, recourse, is to remember the individuals, and the individual kindnesses that many people do. Maybe therein lies our salvation.

[Anpu23]

First thanks for MHO. My mother didn't start along the path until her divorce when I was 5. My mother and father were married in the late 60s, he was a Vietnam veteran and musician who cheated, causing a lot of anger and self esteem issues. He left her because she was "fat and boring." One of my half sisters was born 5 months after their divorce. Of course she was bitter and angry, it probably doesn't help that I am my dads spitting image. Anyway thanks for the thoughts. And I'm glad you liked the video.

[Jamie05rhs]

OMG. @Anpu23 I just saw this. I can't even imagine how horrible that was for you. I'm so sorry.

[DrunkAss]

What might be called "dark feminism" seems mainstream to me coming from an academic background. I was exposed to ideas like critical theory and intersectionality even in the early 2000s in sociology courses that already had ideas brewing like male privilege, white privilege, heterosexual-privilege, cis-privilege, all neatly arranged into a hierarchy of oppressors and oppressed. Most of all the ideology already had, even back then, the concept that anyone who denies their guilt is already revealing their guilt. I thought it was thoroughly toxic back then and witnessing the woke and cancel culture nowadays which originated from that, I'm especially confident that I wasn't wrong about it back then.

[DrunkAss]

The underlying movement -- already deep in academia as far as I can tell when I attended university and possibly quite a bit before -- conflates normativity with supremacy and sets itself up to be as infallible as the most fanatical religious ideologies. It's a lot more sinister than hyper-sensitive people. The vanguards of the movement aren't hypersensitive. They're people obsessed with subverting what they perceive to be a power hierarchy. That's why you can't be racist towards whites, or sexist towards males, according to them. The dumb sheep echo that philosophy but the smart ones teaching these courses know what they're doing. They know they can gain power through this type of discrimination and subjugation. They can ban books, invade workplaces, cancel people's livelihoods if they just subvert the culture and language (which they especially see as a way to maintain a status quo of power).

[DrunkAss]

I am not surprised by this woke/cancel culture resulting from such ideologies now although I'm thoroughly, thoroughly disappointed. I really think feminism is thoroughly corrupt at the institutionalized level now, at least in the West. A primer to give an idea and what I experienced even back in the early 2000s at my university:
https://youtu.be/kVk9a5Jcd1k

[DrunkAss]

And a much longer, but much more in-depth video describing how this seemed to have come to be:
https://youtu.be/xoi9omtAiNQ

[AmandaYVR]

Wow wow wow. That was really, really interesting. Thanks so much for posting. They were exactly things I wanted to hear but didn't know existed. I see how this expands on the chat you and I had about this.
Helen's historical knowledge, and ability to think independently, and put it all into a digestible framework, is very, very impressive.
I don't agree with everything she said, but certainly the vast majority is well worth serious consideration.
I took some notes, and I'll listen to it again this weekend with my husband. He's right in line with her.
I want to write a few of my favourite quotes here now.

"If your conception of society is one in which women, and racial, and sexual minorities are constantly subjected to discrimination and abuse, and then you want to reverse that binary, you are likely to end up with sexism against men, racism against white people, and for this to morally justifiable as a way of regressing the balance. This takes a step away from objectivity and towards subjectivity.

The imperative, then, of post-modern approaches is to study the discourses of society, to find the Foucauldian powerknowledge, invert the Deridium binaries, and empower the Lyotardian mini narratives.

This new phase of absolute certainty, clarity, and refusal to accept disagreement as anything other than a wish to deny privilege began around ten years ago, and has been rapidly escalating since 2015. Ideas have become sacred creeds which cannot be doubted; statements of absolute certainty and of objective knowledge, therefore we call this stage rarefied post-modernism.

It reads like a call to arms. It’s easily comprehensible to any idealistic young person who want to fix the world, and its presence is strongest in universities where they to be found."

[Lliam]

As someone who used to think of my values as liberal, modern liberalism has betrayed me. I often think "These people do not speak for me."

[Lliam]

The video on The Evolution of Postmodern Thought was really good. I agree.

[zeitgeist057]

bloody brilliant. and what a mess we are in.

[AmandaYVR]

@zeitgeist057 Yeah, fascinating, wasn't it.
Yes, we are.

[Jamie05rhs]

My personal experience with feminism was somewhat similar to LionMan's. I was taught feminism in school and also in the home. So it just became one of my values and something that I believe deeply in -- the same as the Constitution and the Bible. The cultural molding of a child in the formative years is extremely impactful.

I would say that the only negative aspect of that, socially, has been that I completely bought in to the theory of equality and the concept of women in the workforce. I was completely sold. There is no turning back. So there's no way in hell I'm going to accept any kind of primitive arrangement where I have to provide financially for a female. (And yes, that clashes sometimes with "church girls" who believe differently. But I just write them off as "not my type.")

Secondary to the financial relationship arrangements, there is also the two competing philosophies of power structures. Feminism believes in shared power and cooperation between the male partner and the female partner, while the traditional approach basically sees the man as the C. E. O. and the woman as his employee. Since I ascribe to the feminist philosophy, I don't believe in anything such as "taking charge" or "taking control" or putting a woman in her place. ... However, the other side of this equation means that I will take great care to select as my partner a woman who has a mature attitude, pleasant disposition, and has a competent level of control over her emotions. Because, since it's not my job to correct her or "tame" her, I want her to come already fully developed and socialized. Because I'm not going to raise my voice at her, period. That is a non-negotiable for me. So I want someone who can sit down at the table and have a mature discussion with me, giving me the same respect that I afford her.

Of course, other guys don't agree with me, because they see women as creatures to be conquered and dominated. They see that as their destined role as a man, and that it is just the natural order of things. (And some girls think they want this as well. At least until they have experienced it firsthand.). These boys were in the same middle school classes that I was in, they were taught the same feminist tenets. But the difference between they and I is that, while I sat respectfully and attentively and took these concepts in with reverence and seriousness, they simply pretended to listen but instead scoffed silently to themselves and viewed the whole thing as a big joke.

Now, do I take it too far? Am I "TOO feminist"? Maybe. I'll let the audience decide. But I personally have no urgent aspirations to amend anything. I think I am a good person and I am comfortable in what I believe and the way that I conduct myself.

[Jamie05rhs]

I know you're not a huge Jordan Peterson fan, but I found this video yesterday and I think it's really good:

https://youtu.be/vIt9SgruM9s

Begin at 1:08.
1:08 to 2:52 is one major theme.
Also 5:22 to 6:34. Relevant factor there as well.

[AmandaYVR]

Yeah, I've tried, Jamie. But the more things I hear this guy say, honestly the more repugnant I find him. I think he's destructive. And that's completely unacceptable for a supposed psychologist, therapist, sociologist type.

I think ultimately what he does is rails against, and rallies, and is riddled with biases, accusations, and a staunch arrogance. He never concedes. He's not really having a conversation. He lectures. He disgusts me, frankly.

I enjoyed reading your comments though. They are very you. And it was well articulated/conveyed in writing.

[Jamie05rhs]

Thanks, @AmandaYVR! :)
Did you catch the clips that I was referencing, though? Or do you dislike him too much to watch the video at all? If so; no worries. I can transcribe the text for you.

[AmandaYVR]

Yes I fast-forwarded to those time stamps and listened. I just don't connect with him. Not at all, never. I think his angle, his tone, etc., all wrong.
He is reacting to something which he staunchly believes to be true, and it's a battle between two extremist views, in my opinion. I won't engage down that path, that road. I think it's despicable, what he's doing.

[Jamie05rhs]

@AmandaYVR Is it possible, though, to detach and imagine that it isn't him speaking, and just focus solely on the words?

[AmandaYVR]

Doesn't matter. I came in neutrally, open, ages ago. Many men on here (that I respect enough) have mentioned him to me (a soft suggestion to listen), and I never once connected with what he is saying. And it's not that I wasn't open. Look at the videos above I did listen to; and they were long.
He just in not in the calibre of people I will follow.

[AmandaYVR]

He should be a male activist. He should not be in the psychology/therapy field. He's completely wrong for it. Destructive is the one word that exemplifies him.

I'm getting angry. Don't want to talk about him more.

[Jamie05rhs]

@AmandaYVR I'm sorry. :(
I guess I should have just posted the words without linking the video. I didn't know your views were this strong. I didn't mean to distract from the topic. 😔

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

It's a strange thing, because I don't really encounter women like this IRL, but online they seem to be everywhere. I think a lot of it is actually incubated in the likes of Twitter, where entire companies and governments take their cues from 20 angry people on Twitter. In the UK we seem to have less extreme levels of discourse on gender politics, and yet our politically correct legal system actually produces some of the more Orwellian examples of punishing what they see as 'wrongthink'. And again, I think that's because the lawmakers take their cues from the angry minority on twitter, rather than defaulting to any actual common sense application of the law. Yet in America its almost the opposite. The government seem reluctant to get involved in gender politics (could change now with Biden/Harris at the helm, coz he's desperate for the far left's approval), yet the public discourse around gender politics and cancel culture is absolutely off the fucking rails. They say you know something has penetrated the culture when your parents start slipping it into conversation. And even my mum and dad know about cancel culture and Twitter lunatics and "there are infinite genders" type identity politics. I do stay off Twitter so I don't see the worst of it, but that vocal minority is hard to ignore since their words seem to have actual real world consequences. In the UK now, "harassment" has changed its legal definition to mean "any behavior that the woman determines to be offensive." i have friends of friends who've faced real consequences for the "crime" of merely approaching a woman, even when it's clear they weren't acting in a harassing way. That's only the tip of the iceberg. But I mostly try to stay away from the discourse online, because that's where a lot of it takes place. But I worry that if everyone ignores it, then before we know it our rights as law abiding citizens could be gradually stripped away, all because corporations and governments are listening to the cancel mobs and feminazis and woke warriors, rather than actually doing right by their employees / constituents.

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

And on a personal note, I think the truly "strong and independent women" are those who never proclaim as such. My nan (mum's side) was one of the strongest, most fearless people I knew, and yet even she baulked at the rah-rah feminists. If a woman is truly independent and strong, then she doesn't NEED a group of other women just to agree with her. I think modern feminism is just a bandaid for low self esteem women to feel better about themselves by projecting their insecurities onto men. My nan was proof that true strength is very much a "quiet thing". It turns up unannounced, does what it ought to do, and then stops when the job is done. Men know this instinctively, as stoicism is in our culture. "never complain, never explain". But feminazis seem to do nothing BUT explain themselves and complain about men.

[MrWolf]

The way everything is going lately I don't really care about any of those i mean do whatever you think is for the best.

My opinion on woman and man is this:

Me and my wife we both cook and as she said i am the better cook but i don't care.

We both clean our house. She is working i am working. I pay the bills she pays the bills. If we are out and she decides to pay for the dinner she hands me over the money and i pay. I don't question her choice.

She enjoys make-up, nails, hairstyles etc. I support it fully. My thoughts a woman should be a woman ans that's it. If she is enjoying her beautiful sessions who am i to say no.

Problems with the cars i handle them.
Something needs fixing around the house i fix it. Not that she can't doit it's just if i am there i will handle it.

We have two cars yet if we are together i am the one driving. That's the only thing we kind argue because i am sick of driving so much. Yet i doit because it makes her happy.

Music we synch on those yet she listens to death metal and i don't but i listen to it because it makes her happy.

Vacation I'm the one with the plan and i handle it all destination and all that. And when we get there she gets to relax on the beach and i get to drink a cold beer and watch the ocean without being botherd.

She can defend herself but I'm her man which means I'm her knight. Makes her happy.

Basically what makes her happy is what makes my life easy and happy at the same time.

If I'm wrong i will say it. I made a mistake i will admit it. Done somthing bad i will confess. It's my own choice after all. And she loves me for that.

If i have problems or am dealing with something it's my own business and she knows it well.

My opinion on other stuff:

Who's strong, who's weak I don't care and never i will.

Woman are woman. Man are man. The other stuff is their own choice. Wana be different gender it's your own life I don't care. Feminism? Not my problem there I ain't a woman so I don't count towards it.

Dark Feminism : Probably encountered some don't remember really because at any point someone tries to ruin my day or tell me what should be right or wrong in life. They are done with me. I don't care i have my own problems to deal with and I don't have time to listen to someone else talking about his problems and not dealing with them himself.

If you can't fix your life don't expect me to doit for you. I have enough on my plate with my life and the life of my family and friends. So i should read about this Dark Feminism but in the end it ain't something i should talk about.

Because I've never intentionally have done any harm to woman and i don't plan on doing that. I respect them and i expect the same respect to shown to me.


Different people, different opinions, different lifes.

It ain't my problem.

Woman should be given a choice at evrything and let em be or do whatever they think is right.

[EmotionOfFear]

You have a beautiful marriage.

[MrWolf]

Thanks, but it really takes a lot of consideration from each other and lot's of talking.

[EmotionOfFear]

Yep, communication is key in all relationships.

[Lionman95]

I don´t have a clear situation in my mind and I don´t think that all feminists use their ideas for bad reasons on purpose.

I just had a series of situations where I was told either by teachers or by other girls that masculinity is useless and that girls are better at everything important anyways so that they just play with guys and use them for their pleasure.

There were situations like in history class where a teacher talked about the stupid guys that prevented girls from equality for so long. In sexual awareness class as a part of biology classes female therapists told us boys that looking physical athletic is turning a guy into a possible predator from a girl´s point of you, if want that?

Or when BLM hit I had female colleagues that openly said it´s time to discriminate white men and boys now.

Though I grew up with both parents I was mostly raised by my mum and she raised me into a mom´s boy whenever I tried something on my own she was scared that waited until dad came home and do with him.

It´s always an open visible but often of a thing of sublime message that often comes with feminism following the idea of you guys had your chance now it´s time for the girls to take over...

[AmandaYVR]

That sucks, it’s all shitty. I’m sorry you heard any of that bullshit.
I hope you can try to keep a clear head about it all, not get either brainwashed nor too bitter. I appreciate that you said you don’t think all feminists/females have bad intentions.
You shouldn’t have to hear any of this, and I apologize on their behalf because they’re all wrong.
We need to not forget history, and where we all came from, but the ones with this similarly oppressive, ‘the future is female’ mantra are equally as stupid and wrong as the males of the past who didn’t treat their fellow female peers with equality and respect. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

[Lionman95]

It´s the past of my life I´m mostly over that for me the most important thing is to give guys the feelings that you want to work with them not instead of them. Reading my original comment I regret not making able to edit it because especially in a last sentence there something I´d like to edit because it´s often NOT openly visible as much misogynistic comments are not always clear.

[AmandaYVR]

Yeah there was definitely some typos in it. Too bad no editing. The site thinks it would cause issues.
I encourage you to just retype any sections you see errors with.

[Lionman95]

"In sexual awareness class as a part of biology classes female therapists told us boys that looking physical athletic is turning a guy into a possible predator from a girl´s point view combined with the question if we really wanted to look that way."

"Though I grew with both parents not being divorced I was mostly raised by my mum and she raised me into a mom´s boy so whenever I tried something new on my own she always was scared and freaked out so that I waited until my dad came home and I could do it with him to calm her down."

I can understand that some women have problems seeing "dark feminism" because it´s a rather a sublime message when girls make a guy feel like they could do it better without guys or for guys. Because there were many incidents in my life where especially my mum tried to solve my problems for me so that I have an easier life. But that´s not always because guys sometimes need challenges growing up.

[perfectchaos]

It is out there and it does exist. I will not wear the title of feminists because of them. I actually call myself a traditional feminist because of it. I'm not a MRA but they actually make valid points that we should address. Everytime I log on here and see a MRA question or a feminists question it disgusts me. I want real debate. There are real problems and instead if you go to those questions all you see are the terms feminazi and simp thrown around. Why can we not talk about the glass ceiling without yelling at each other. Why can we not talk about how there have been false allegations against men that have ruined their lives. It is painful to see that we could probably solve these issues if we come and work together but we seem more divided than ever. This is not a competition of who is more marginalized. This is a way to talk about how to solve problems. I know I'm going to be attacked by both sides for putting this out here but sometimes even if you reach one person it's better than watching the world burn.

[AmandaYVR]

I'm 100% there with you.
You didn't get attacked here (don't you feel a tad better now?) I am not like that. And neither is my crowd. It's a safe space on my qs, as long as people are considerate and reasonable. And you certainly sound like one of them/us as well.

[perfectchaos]

Yeah sorry. You have been very kind.

[Snakeyes7]

I have heard anti-male rhetoric and girls act on it all the time. Although she has mellowed out a while ago, my mother was abusive (at least that's what others told me when I tell them about my encounters with her). I was the only one I know she struck and used various objects to batter but she was manipulative to everyone else in my family and still is to a certain degree.

I see modern feminism support people like her because people of the same mindset are dictating the movement and are the ones politicians are listening to.

When I was in college, a friend of mine ended up getting falsely accused of rape and kicked out even though the court immediately ruled him not guilty. Now he spends the rest of his days playing his guitar for money because no one would hire him and no university would take him because of the stain of a rape accusation. After he told me about that, that was the last I have really heard from him.

It was because of that is why it pisses me off how feminists groups chant about how they want to remove the presumption of innocence for rape trials knowing that it will only lead to more false convictions all while they claim that women never lie about rape. It's disgusting.

[AmandaYVR]

These are excellent, tragic, examples. Thank you for posting.

[Lliam]

Even though I know lots of women who subscribe to good feminist ideals, I can't say that I've been subjected to any dark feminist crap, myself. I've read some shocking stuff. There truly are some messed up people in the world.

I have sensed that proclivity in some women but never been confronted. Frankly, I don't want to be bothered. I'll walk away with a brush off waive of my hand.

One anecdote just popped into my head. A friend once told me about a time he, his wife, son and daughter in law went out to dinner. As they walked up the sidewalk at night, a car full of young guys drove by and cat called the girl. They may have even said things like "Nice ass", I don't know.
But she flew into a rage and chased the car while sheiking at them.
Here's the thing, she wouldn't have done that if her husband or another "protector" wasn't around. Did she want her husband to kick the guys' asses for her?
So she was virtue signaling her radical feminism. So "woke" but very un-ladylike. It kinda makes me sick. And it would be just as bad if a guy reacted in the same violent manner.

[Marco10]

Thanks for asking this question. I guess I speak for many men when I say we need more women to stand up to misandrists just like we, men, should stand up to misogynists and abusers in all shapes and forms. The fight for equal rights should start with treating each other fairly and not having a cult mentality to destroy the other. I will end my tirade here and give some specific examples to answer the question:


- My cousins were very radical feminists. When I first moved to the city where I live now and saw them, they wouldn’t talk to me the very few times that we met for the sole reason that I’m a man. My first Thanksgiving dinner got very tense because one of them was discussing the topic of body hair with a distant uncle who did not agree with her. She labeled us all as “trash of society” even though I was just peacefully eating Turkey and minding my own business.


- I held the door open once for a girl at my grad school. Turns out she was hardcore feminist, and she got all offended and shit, said I was being condescending treating her like she’s weaker. I stood my ground and told her she got that right. She was 115 pounds give or take and she could barely open that door but whatever. She didn’t stop there. She brought the situation up with a program director who was also a feminist, though much less toxic than that girl.


I got many small incidents like these but I prefer not to focus on the small details. There’s a problem. A REAL one. I’m not saying women don’t have problems, huge ones. But this isn’t the way to fix them. I’m sure most women agree with my logic, but I would want them to speak up when they see a female friend turn radical.

[Feelicks]

I suffered years of abuse from my feminist step mother, I'm still messed up from it. She nearly drove me to suicide, dressed me like a girl and tired to convince me that I was gay accused me falsely of rape (as a prepubescent child) and because of her abuse I gave up yoga, computer programming and poetry.

I was emotionally dead inside and was afraid of any physical contact with others for years. She also turned most of my family against me, so when I left at 18 I was pretty much alone in the world. It was tough, I've since changed my name, and moved and started a new happier life, but sometimes it still troubles me, and I still can't write poems anymore, part of my heart died back then.

Be kind to children and don't target them with your bullshit.

[Juxtapose]

I hope you're feeling better these days, that sucks.

[Mia-Wallace]

Damn man. That broke my heart. Happy to hear your life's better and I hope it stays that way.

[Feelicks]

Doing better most of the time thanks. 🙂

[AmandaYVR]

I'm very sorry what you went through. 💛

[AD240pCharlie]

If I understand what you're referring to, then I have only known one feminist like that personally. A girl in my HS class. It seems like a general trend overall that it's primarily young people (especially young girls) to follow that section of feminism. In fact, most of the time, young people tend to actually be more radical in their political beliefs than older people tend to be since they often haven't had time to discover the nuances or the many different ways things can be viewed and interpreted yet.
The way I see it, most feminists who see things this way grow out of it eventually. Obviously, not ALL of them, but I would say that the majority do once they realize how simplistic that worldview is.

[AmandaYVR]

Great observation. Thanks for posting.
And P. S. I hope so.

[DCooper]

Understand that society just is what it is. Thoughtful argument is not going to change it. Accordingly, it's best for you to take whatever course you find fulfilling, for the sake of the pursuit itself, not the goal. As they say, "Don't hate the player; hate the game."

[AmandaYVR]

Thank you. Wise words. I appreciate the kindness.
I don't entirely agree, though, that change cannot happen. We changed into this current [rarefied post-modernist thinking, as Helen Pluckrose in the video DrunkAss posted and I MHO'd, has said) thinking, and society will one day change out of it (as the only constant is change.)
Question is, how many will survive with their sanity and mental health intact.
I think I can do some nudging and pushback on this online, but not so much as to drive myself crazy with all the injustice out there. Injustice really, really bothers me.

[VanillaSalt]

I highly recommend you look into Roma Army on YouTube if you really want to understand. Her videos hit close to home on issues that men have faced for years. The issues we face now are the same as we have faced decades ago that we have just internalized and moved on past. It’s just now with every other group getting their fallouts we men feel where’s ours?


So I’m honor of strong independent women. In honor of equality. In honor of the change in society. Everything women feminists or otherwise that is expected out of men but not women needs to end now. Any special privilege for women including in courting, society, family, law, and the workplace needs to disappear immediately as they are ALL affronts to men and equality.

[alvincasey]

I define feminism as, "Do you believe women deserve the same rights as men? Yes? Ok then your a feminist"

I've never encountered what your talking about. I'm not sure I even know what your talking about. Sure there is always a few but I don't think it's a major problem of any kind

[AmandaYVR]

Many men would disagree with you, but I'm happy you feel this way. Nice to see. 💐
Some people also do catastrophize, see the glass half full, get their backs up. There's that too.

[COMMODOREII]

I have experienced this first hand. Growing up i have had my aunt manipulate me and tell me that she was independent and yet she expected me to hold the door for her. If i did she would tell me off if i didn't she would ask why i didn't. I have had women tell me off that just for being in the same room or walking by them on the street that i was going to rape them or i looked at them funny. I even had a woman come up to to try to put me down saying that she was a lesbian because of men like me when i was joking with a few of my girl friends only to be owned by my girl friend who was a lesbian telling her that her girlfriend and her lived who i was and told her to get list or she would kick her ass.

[TheSpaceGnome]

Okay so 2 things that I feel need to be pointed out to you while you find examples from people:


1. Don't make a special name for it, just call it feminism, because thats the word that gets used for women treating men badly, the word for both being treated as equals is equality, if you call it dark feminism you will just be validating misandrists, femenism isn't about women's rights decades ago, feminism is a new age word used to put men down.


2. It is morally wrong to have anyone pay for the "sins" of others, no exceptions. thinking otherwise is part of the toxicity that this topic is bringing up.

[TheSpaceGnome]

Humanism would be the better equal rights term honestly.

[AmandaYVR]

Yeah, strongly disagree.
I've been thinking about this for a long time, and I'm not creating that term (dark feminism) offhandedly.
You won't be able to eliminate the word, or the cause, 'feminism.' It's too much of a behemoth to dismiss, or lump vast amounts of people into one basket.

No one is challenging whether it is right or wrong that we all pay for the sins of others. But again, you can't simply say "it's bad" and therefore pretend it doesn't exist. It seeps into all facts of life. (Not just gender, but race, age, heritage, socioeconomic, war...)

[TheSpaceGnome]

Agree to disagree I guess, I stand by my initial comment. Any movement that generalizes individuals into a group is honestly bad, as is any that blames someone for the actions of another, things like feminism, mgtow, racism, etc, are just flavors of that sort or social cancer.

[Jjpayne]

I think equality and fairness should be discussed. Recently a girl asked a sexual question and concluded that all men were pigs. I said that in the womb there was no difference in gender so you are actually part male too if you think about it. It's this idea that the gap between men and women is so far that women can just place men in a pile and not associate with them.

I think both genders deserve a chance equally. And to be viewed as equals, not pigs or dogs 😞

[pajamasam]

I tend to know the "dark feminism" when I see it. I dont have a problem with equality, questioning gender roles, etc. I like to stay open minded and up to date with all the various social changes going on in today's world.

But I know the bad girls when I see them. Like girls that brag about cheating... huge red flag I avoid those women.

Girls that will shame a man's penis... thats body shaming and is no different than if I shamed a woman for the size of her boobs

[RenegadeSailor]

My mother is a feminist, before the age of 6 she was already calling me a male chauvinist pig and was very physically violent, put my head through a wall, slammed me in the refrigerator door. Anything she could do to hurt me.

[EmotionOfFear]

I wonder why she kept you if she was just going to abuse you...

[AmandaYVR]

I'm really sorry you went through that. She sounds like a nightmare. Calling you that as a child is completely ridiculous. She sounds unhinged. Do you think she had mental health issues too?

[TwoToTooTutu2]

Feminism has its roots in Socialism. That is where the resentment towards men comes from. Men are compared to the ruling Social class and women are compared to the Bourgeois. It's a Hegelian idea and by nature names men as the enemy of women. That is why I don't follow it.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

I don’t really bother with it. It’s crazy, but it’s *obviously* crazy, so I’m not worried about people taking it seriously.


“Non-dark” feminism that fancies itself in favor of equality is more insidious, it is entrenched in institutions and culture. That’s the one to be concerned about. “Dark” feminism is too overtly disturbing to amount to anything people will accept or that could be widespread.