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Because it benefits them
This is probably the clearest and honest answer so far. I love the details others have provided, but it all breaks down to this.
what makes you believe that generally they do? i'm sure there are such black sheep out there. you won't ever have "no black sheep" in this world. does that answer your question?
This. This is the jam. ☺
@putthefootdown i appreciate your enthusiasm for my opinion :D
*points to some of the male responses in this thread*
Thanks
@ez-bri-z a few opinions are not representative for men in general.
*points to my brothers and father as well*
My description does say though that I know it is not all men, but yeah this kind of is a representation of men. These are your peers and these are the responses that are being given by them. There have been some great responses from those who are against it which I am thrilled about, but it's not unanimous and that's why I brought this topic up so that the conversation can be had and both sides could be heard.
My description does say though that I know it is not all men. so you do in fact understand the difference between personal experience / annekdotal evidence and generally aplicable empirical facts then. that's good.
from my personal and professional experience (being educated in social science) i can quite confidently tell you, that what you see is not the majority of men but i'm not going to go through the effort of providing you with the empirical stuff to substentiate my statement, cause that's too much work for me.
also i professionally disagree with the assessment that our gender roles are "outdated". if you look at all sorts of general life choices by gender, you can clearly see that the traditional gender roles are not outdated at all. and they are not the result of patriachal enforcement and perpetuation but rather result of accumulated individual free will decisions.
so i do subscribe to the fact that the traditional gender roles do still exist. but i disagree with the claim that men demand women to "serve" them. you have to realize that men and women need another. it's not a one-sided oppressive situation.
You are free to disagree if you'd like that's why it is called an opinion 😊
I promise you if you had experience from the other side you'd realize that there is more patriarchal enforcement than you'd realize.
this is not a personal opinion. this is actually empirically factual. take the gender pay gap for example. if you look at income by gender, there's obviously a gap in income. i take this example, cause it is probably "the" most researched observation in social science.
so what uneducated buffoons will say is "there's clearly structural oppression that puts women at a disadvantage". however if you go and take a look at what variables predict income and you account for all of those, you can explain 99% of the income inequalities with female free will choices like choice of professional branche, choice of working hours a week. choice of "working at all" or not due to having a family (cause the women tends to "want" to take the maternity leave).
the opinion, that those things are a result of structural oppression is an uninformed and factually false opinion, as empirical evidence is very clear that the opposite is the case.
so the thesis derived from the opinion that women are just structually oppressed would be: as a society becomes more egalitarian (meaning reducing hurdles and making career choices equally accessible for all genders), women would become more equal to men statistically. and that is a valid claim to make. luckily we can look if that's true or not.
so if you compare societies that are less egalitarian with those that are more egalitarian, you will find that those that are more egalitarian do have more social inequality between men and women. it actually increases the statistical differences and does not reduce them. conclusion: the social inequality that we can observe is result of free will choices, not structural oppression.
just a footnote to what i just said: "inequality" is often falsely associated with inequity. that is a false association. free will choices cause statistical inequality. and having a free will choice is not iniquitous by any means.
No, its still an opinion and I respect your right to have it.
I am very aware of the differences in pay for doing the same work within the same field for the same company. Women who have been working twice as hard as their peers making less money overall. We all talk to one another and realize what the other is making regardless of experience. We realize that some fields just naturally seem to preclude women. Take sports as a perfect example. We are just now finally beginning to see women being brought in as coaches in male sports such as the NFL and NBA. It's not our free will of not wanting to do that kind of work that kept that progress from happening, it was the mindset of those in positions to make those hires that prevented it.
To punish a woman for wanting to take maternity leave after carrying a child inside her for 9 months and then being asked to be the primary caretaker for said child is crazy to me. It's one of those situations where if we don't have a child we get pressured into having one by society but if we do we get punished for needing the time to recover from it. Where is the win in that situation?
"I am very aware of the differences in pay for doing the same work within the same field for the same company" there is no such thing. doing the same work with the same employer, qualifications, competencies and the same working hours a week, there's no difference in pay that is outside the margin of error. this is not opinon. this is fact. facts don't care about opinions.
your example of sports: did you know women actually get a considerably bigger cut from their respective sports associations generated income? yes they still get less money in total than men, cause the female sports associations do generate way less money. why? because female physical performance in sports is much lower than that of men and therefore less interesting for a general audience (audience being male AND female). this is not oppression. it's natural gender differences and you'd be hard pressed to find a good reason to blame that on someone.
can you explain to me, how a woman deciding for herself that rising a baby is more important TO HER than havig a career is oppression? nobody made it such that babies have to be cared for with the intend to oppress women.
and we do have systems in place that enable men to take paternity leave, yet women want to do that, cause women naturally are more predispositioned to nurture and care than men, which is also why they choose more nurturing jobs, which inherently create a lower income, making the income inequalities... it is free will choices not oppression. this is not opinion. it is facts.
Oh lord... ok well if you choose to be blatantly blind to pay inequality despite all the studies saying otherwise then I can't help you.
What does athletes pay have to do with my point of women trying to get jobs in male dominated leagues?
Did you just completely miss what I was saying on the child care thing or is it intentional?
I think at this point I would just say we will have to agree to disagree on this because it is clear there is no middle ground here.
Have a pleasant day 😊
"Oh lord... ok well if you choose to be blatantly blind to pay inequality despite all the studies saying otherwise then I can't help you" you are missinformed. the relevant scientific studies contradict your opinion. it's mostly pseudo scientifical idiots like feminist, buzzfeed and huffington post that propagate opinions that are missinformed and factually wrong.
i think it is about time to introduce you to the way we can extually determine "inequity" instead of just observing an "inequality" and that is by looking at the determinants of individual quality of life.
and as we observe, the traditional gender stereotypical choices lead to "increased" individual subjective quality of life in women, not to "decreased" subjective quality of life in women. so the claim that this social inequality is unfair is just plain factually wrong. it has nothing to do with opinon at all.
and the income inequalities between women and men do NOT exist. IF you account for all the variables that predict income and make those exactly the same. cause then the variable "gender" has absolutely no significant correlation with income. i am sorry if your opinion is other than the facts. if you are emotionally attached to that opinion for some reason, cause you constructed a world view on that, i think it's time to let that world view crumble, cause it's wrong.
please don't understand this as a personal ad hominem attack against you. i'm attacking weak and wrong arguments, not you.
i very highly suggest to you to read: Piketty's "Capital and Ideology" from 2019 and "Income inequality not gender inequality positively covaries with female sexualization on social media" by blake et. al. from 2018.
the first gives a general overview on income inequalities, their perceptions and ideologies that arise from that and the second one is just a posterchild example of how methodologically good studies often theorize that sex/gender is a determining factor in observable inequality but the more different actually peer reviewed scientifical sources you read (not buzzfeed), the more you will find that the conclusion actually contradicts that intial hypothesis. at least in all cases that i'm aware of and that are of significance in this scientific field.
i also suggest "Human Happiness and the Pursuit of Maximization: Is More Always Better?" by Jan Delhey, who is my Alma Mater and also a Luminary in his field.
Because if we are a Man we want to feel like a Man especially around other people.
So being a man to you means expecting your wife to clean up after you, feed you, and tend to your needs after working 40 hours a week herself? Kind of sounds more like a child to me.
I think a man should not care what others think of him outside of his loved ones. He should have the security to know that him seeing his wife as an equal makes him a stronger man than those who don't.
No, To me being a Man means taking care of a
Woman and Doing things that most Women don't do and shouldn't have to do.
Problem is a lot of Women don't want to reward their Man even when he does some of the traditional Female chores aswell.
Reward how? It's just being an adult and doing what needs to be done.
Sex, Cook him a meal or take him out, Buy him things.
It doesn't have to be big just show gratitude.
If they are both working 40 hours a week why should he be rewarded for doing tasks he should be helping out with? I'm just really confused by that.
@ez-bri-z
I dont just click on random links.. can I just get the description in print? lol
@ez-bri-z it's not a link its gif of Robert de Niro saying "well I got to say I'm impressed"
Okies 😁
@ez-bri-z anyway I liked the way you handled all this, you've got a new follower and I doubt you'll disappoint see you when I see you
Thank you very much! I love having dialogue with others even with opposing points of view. It helps me recenter myself and not just lean one way or the other. Thank you for response to this thread.
Your welcome.👍😃
Because that's the recipe for a healthy relationship. The woman belongs in the kitchen and should keep her mouth shut instead of nagging us to an early grave.
You weren't hugged enough as a child, huh?
I believe it should be 5050
Yay!
Thank you for your response 😀
submissive and subservent is not the same thing. we all have someone above us. life is built on a hierarchy-to end that would be to end society.
A marriage shouldn't be one of them. It's an equal partnership.
i agree that's it's a partnership. . the bible says that wives obey their husbands but for husbands to respect their wives. you may find that outdated-but read this: www.goldbergjones-wa.com/.../
Which is fine for who those who follow the Bible. What about those who don't?
divorce. as the record show--it doesn't work. look, i go no problem with girls haven't a strong personality-i respect that. if i go too far--i'm willing to talk.
Sorry but even those who follow the Bible get divorced all the time and those who don't can stay together.
any stats? because what i showed showed otherwise-hell, spend enough time on here. marriage isn't viewed as it once was-nor is sex... that hasn't worked out too well, either.
What stats are you looking for? Do you honestly believe that nobody who claims to be religious and follow the Bible don't get a divorce? Do you want a stat that non religious couples can stay together?
anyone can make a claim. while churches don't exactly preach truth-stats indicate that those of faith stay married far more than non
What does that have to do with anything? It wasn't a competition about how stayed married longer it was about those who don't willingly choose to that type of life but are still expected to do it.
shows it works. look, i ain't gonna start preaching--but i can tell ya this-you trying living independently of god... man or a woman... it doesn't go well... world proves that multiple times a day.
Sure. I am agnostic and I dont have a defined high power. I am married to another woman. We have been together for 19 years in one form or another with no signs of stopping.
high divorce race amongst lesbian couples: ''Marriage equality came to the UK in March 2014: Three months later, there were 1,409 same-sex marriages, 56% (796) of which were women. By 2015, 22 of those couples broke up. But in 2016, the number of divorces leaped to 112, more than three-quarters of which (87) were lesbian couples.
The most common reason for those splits was “unreasonable behavior”—which can mean anything from refusing to get a job to being unfaithful. But sociologists believe the higher divorce rate among lesbians is caused by women having higher expectations and rushing into a commitment.
Even before same-sex marriage came to Britain, lesbian couples were nearly twice as likely as gay men to end a civil partnership. Of the 794 partnerships dissolved in 2012, almost 60% were by female couples.
Gunnar Andersson, professor of demography at Stockholm University, found the same trend in a 2013 study of civil partnerships in Norway, Sweden, and Denmark. Queer women were twice as likely to dissolve their same-sex partnerships as men.
“This reflects trends in a heterosexual marriage—because women are more prone to say they want to marry, but they’re also more likely to initiate a divorce,” he told The Independent. “Women usually have higher demands on relationship quality, that’s [been shown] in studies. Even if you control for age there is still a trend of more women ending partnerships than men.”
Ok... so what does that have to do with my marriage?
was curious about the brake up and divorce rate. wasn't shocked.
And you felt the need to share it when it had nothing to do with what I said. Your post had nothing to do with couples who are religious and also lgbt. You just mentioned lesbians marriages in general which does nothing for this argument.
you actually brought it up to make a point that wound indicate that they were successful.
You said living independently of God it doesn't go well. I was showing you an example of where it did.
and the high divorce/divorce gives credit to my argument. not to mention overall health concerns. stds and HIVs are not as low as assumed: Contrary to the belief that lesbians are at low risk for contracting HIV, a few researchers have shown that women who have sex with women actually engage in risky behavior with little protection against sexually transmitted diseases. In one study (Morrow & Allsworth, 2000), 85% of women in this sample reported having unprotected sex with a female partner at least once a month, and 20% of sexually active women in this sample reported engaging in sexual activity involving possible exposure to blood. Out of all these respondents, 84% believed they were at zero risk of HIV or STD infection in the previous year. ...
... Because needles are involved in piercing and tattooing, there is a high risk of HIV infection involved if needles are shared without sterilizing them between partners (Bond-Webster, 2000). Morrow and Allsworth (2000) found 18% of lesbians in their sample participated in sadomasochism or bondage and 3% participated in cutting/piercing/tattooing. ...
... Nevertheless, the few researchers who have studied lesbian sexual behavior and STD risk have consistently found that perception to be false. Morrow and Allsworth (2000) reported that 24% of lesbians they surveyed had been diagnosed with at least one STD in their lifetime. Diamant et al. (2000) found that 17% of lesbians they surveyed had been diagnosed with at least one STD in their lifetime (lifetime prevalence)
That still has nothing to do with your original point about those who are independent of God.
Neither of us use drugs, neither of us have tattoos. Neither of us has had another partner in 19 years
you may not have gender roles to contend with... but more than enough other issues that make up for it.
I think you sort of lost your train of thought somewhere along the way and are hoping to hold on the narrative in some way.
I appreciate your response on the matter and have a great evening.
the point is that they face far more issues in life-the studies and statistics prove--hell, the news show it everyday.
''So never be anxious about the next day, for the next day will have its own anxieties. Each day has enough of its own troubles.''. remember that-it'll save you a lot of pain.
Feminism = dying alone.
*looks to right and sees wife*
*looks at comment again*
*rechecks wife is still there*
... I dont think that checks out there, chief.
I don't believe in that.
Thank you 😊
I really appreciate you responding to my post as well!
You're welcome! :)
being "Lazy", is a lot of work... lol
In my dad's case, I guess it is tiring watching Mash and John Wayne movies all day lol
Exhausting...
Isn't it though? Lol
I'm so lazy I want to be on the bottom, and even then I get exhausted...
Even the horse gets worn out during a ride.
and the rider always wants more...
Lol 😆
Oh wait... that's not very Macho of me... I have NO shame... lol
Lol macho is overrated. Bring on those with a good sense of humor
OK... I'm on...
we dont
Evidence shows differently but I am glad you are not one of them. 😊
@ez-bri-z
thanks by the way i washed and hung out the clothes today :D
follow me?
Must... resist... jokes...
Lol
@ez-bri-z
come on let rip i could do with a laugh :D