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Probably a learned behavior. Same with women. Either their peers or their parents put these silly beliefs in their head.
That's kind of what I think too. I just hope one day it changes to something a bit more modern.
We are meant to complement each other in different ways. If anything, these gender roles have faded in this culture. But all you see nowadays are friends with benefits and I've lost count of the number of unhappy women that I've met. Those gender roles are fine if there is mutual respect and give and take.
Yes, I think I could sit more comfortably with it if it was a mutual thing. When it becomes an expectation based on gender alone regardless of consent is where I am focusing. In my example, I talk about my mom who worked overnights, supplied more money to the household than my father did but was also expected to be the one to care for the house and cook dinner all the time. My brothers have learned that same lesson and in my middle brother's case he doesn't even work at all. I have seen examples of it with hetero friends as well and it has always just bugged me to see.
Oh I see what you mean. That sounds like they want the benefits without the responsibility. it needs to be a mutual two way street. What you described is only possible if the other puts up with it though.
She only did because she was afraid of being alone and she (like myself) have a need to be liked even at person sacrifice
This is why I think a person should seek a relationship because they are overflowing, rather than feeling a void.
I'm usually a guy who doesn't like the word natural for a fair amount of things i like my way or my taste... but i find it really natural.
And here's a shocker: some, yes some, women out there, seek out that 'outdated' you speak of. Really, they do. I've met some.
Oh I'm absolutely aware that some seek it. My question is more along the lines of when it is expected of her despite her not wanting it and she is also working full time
Than that's not ok, right? I think people often settle or match up with ms wrong or mr wrong too much too often.
*thenc
*then
That has been what I have been giving my thoughts on this whole thread. No, it wouldn't be fair for it to be an expectation at that point. If he is the only one working, then yeah she should be doing a majority at home EXCEPT childcare because that is not something that should just be dumped onto one parent when both are available.
Ah makes sense now. Okay cool. Personally i'll never have a problem on that end: i dont want kids. And if i had a wife or girlfriend, i'd only match if she felt the same or was infertile even. 😊
Glad we are in agreement then 😊
Thank you very much for your response to this thread!
You said it yourself it’s not all guys not everyone needs to think like you so if you don’t like it don’t date them why do people hold on to the outdated motion everyone who doesn’t think like them is outdated? Just mind your own business and before you @ me my wife and I don’t have conventional gender roles entirely we do what’s personally best for us so why should that effect you? And like I said if you meet a man like that here’s an idea don’t date them
Nobody called you or your wife out so maybe don't take this personally as if this thread was specifically about you. Lots of other people here posted an opinion understanding it was meant to attack anyone directly.
This is an open forum for a reason, for people to ask questions. I didn’t imply it affected me. I asked as a general question about why that mindset exists.
I was using our relationship as an example because whoever gender is brought up words like incel simp and loner get brought up so I was saying hey here’s an example that doesn’t effect anyone and people personal decisions within a relationship shouldn’t effect people outside those two I stand by my if you don’t like it don’t date em
And when those guys don't get dates they end up hating women and become incels. Viscious cycle.
I personally avoided it by marrying another woman but for those who are in those relationships where they feel that pressure but are too afraid to speak up, I am acting as their voice today.
Meh I disagree with those guys too they’re morons personally I don’t think it gets that deep those women have a choice to leave too but I can understand where you’re coming from
Thank you 😊
Although it's not always easy to go especially if there are financial issues (maybe they have debt for example) or maybe there are children to consider.
I also agree that those guys need help though. They seem like a very angry lot 🤣
I totally get that there are exceptions even mental abuse situations where the man can basically mess her up so bad she thinks she has no options it’s not always black and white but I think that was my main objection to the post originally
And everyone is angry these days usually someone would come on here calling me all kinds of mames without hearing me out but sometimes (much less frequently unfortunately) someone like you comes and actually tried to discuss the topic like an adult props to you
Thank you again!
I love having friendly conversations even if we are on opposite sides of the aisle. Honestly, we all have our stances and we all feel it's the right one, but in reality it just means it is the right one for that person.
There will be times I am wrong. There will be times they are wrong.
As long as we all take the time to listen to one another, we can expand our view of the world beyond our own.
Beautiful said I completely agree
They’re not outdated. Most of these concepts derive from biological nature. Look the differences in our endocrine system and how those differences impact our behavior. The ideal that gender roles are a social construct is entirely false. Society just tells us gender roles are bad and we follow. Anytime humans deviate away from biological norms, hysteria follows. Look at the increase in divorces, depression, and infidelity. The data speaks for itself.
That seems a little drastic. The wife doesn't want to change a diaper, welp there goes society I guess.
There’s surely more depth to this issue rather than just changing diapers. I’m speaking about the intimate dynamic between man and woman as an entirety.
Of course there is more to it than that, but things like getting a job in the workplace or things like chores around the house or childcare is not a gendered role. Both can contribute equally on both sides. That's all this topic is really about.
Biologically that’s untrue though. Women produce much more estradiol which influences nurturing and emotionally driven behavior. Men are certain set of biological traits that attribute to particular strengths and weaknesses, and women as well. Our differences complement each other in a beautiful way. It’s not a matter of superiority or inferiority, but rather recognizing differences and playing towards our strengths. It doesn’t make sense for me to contribute 50/50 on everything when we have different strengths and weaknesses. My girl is much better suited to handling a crying baby than I am. I’m much better suited at managing our capital and wealth than she is. Why 50/50 on everything? If your an a business, would you have the accountant managing the books at Toyota partake in the body shop at Toyota? We should play towards strengths and weaknesses and collaborate in a way that complements one another. These strengths and weaknesses derive from our biology. Sure, there are outliers, but I’m speaking about the general masses.
Let me know if you can’t read in between the typos. Typing pretty fast on my phone here.
(Mmhmm i am comprehending it just fine)
That's not what I am saying though. If it is discussed and both are willingly in agreement then its absolutely a-ok. The topic is mostly about the expectations that men (although women are just as guilty) have that certain roles can ONLY be done by their wife strictly because she is a woman. I am not debating if she is better at handling a crying baby. Im just saying she shouldn't be the only one to get up to deal with one just because she is a female.
Sure I guess we just make assumptions because it’s usually the case that women are better at certain things just as men are. It shouldn’t be a rule that you follow. It should be what’s natural, and typically that’s what’s natural. I think we’re on the same page
😊
Awesome! Thank you so much for the conversation and your time on your responses.
I do approve the way you think about responsabilities in relationship. I prefer myself to see lovers as partners who share responsabilities and roles. The man and the woman should flirt each other, taking turns about who invites, who pays, etc.
Thank you 😊
It should absolutely be a partnership with no expectations about gender roles doing certain duties. Find what you are both strongest in and divide from there. Anything left just split between who hates it the least. It's just good communication there as well as not putting undue burden on just one person.
Thank you for your response!
I work 4 hours a day longer than my wife and make 5x more money. She does 90% of the housework. We both like it this way and if anything she ahs more disposable time than I do. As a matter of fact I'm not "Allowed" to do most things because "I won't do it right". I think this is where a lot of this comes from in fact. Many women are control freaks
How much you make more than her really isn't consequential if you are both working the same number of hours. You work longer so sure in your case maybe it makes more sense for her to pick up the difference at home. If you are both working 40 hours a week then my point is why is the expectation that the woman is the one responsible for taking care of the home and kids too
I agree with your idea of equal distribution of work, but I think the "societal expectation" is an excuse women use so they can complain and not take responsibility for the situation. I think more often it is that the man is working more and also: "If a month goes by and toilet has not been cleaned I am unlikely to notice but my wife will have an aneurysm." I think that drives a lot of this. That was the situation in my parents house, My mother was a neat freak and my father was Ok with a sloppy environment.
Not take responsibility? Just because the guy can't be bothered to take initiative to do something that needs to be done to care for the home it's the woman's fault for wanting it to be clean? That's some kind of leap in logic there.
My wife doesn't take initiative to change the oil in our cars, she doesn't see the value in that or far example, keeping the brakes in working order. If the brakes are squealing and the car is beginning to not stop well she will not get it fixed nor will she ask me to fix it. I know I have to drive the car once in a while to access what maintenance is needed and keep up with the oil changes, keep air in the tires, etc. She literally ignores the low air warning for unlimited amounts of time. She sees less value in maintaining a car than me but it "needs to be done". I see less value in cleaning the toilet constantly. When I lived alone, "once in a while" was good enough and it still is for me. Stop whining.
Well, see her not taking the initiative works counter to what I am advocating for. My point is to discuss those things, figure out who can do what so it is split evenly (again when both are working equal hours at work) and work with your strengths. Neither side should be expected to do a certain task because of their gender. It should be because they both agree it makes more sense for that person to do it or doesn't mind doing it.
I don't disagree with you. Peace
Thank you for the discussion! Have a wonderful day 😊
Thanks, you too. Just wanting to vent a little here. If my wife said: "Honey, brakes feel a little weak." in very little time she would have new brakes at no expense to her, but she finds it easier to keep pressing harder!
Lol I know jack about cars, but my wife has built one from the ground up. We all have our strengths and weaknesses.
Maybe she shouldn't be so heavy footed on the pedals though lmao
It’s always been that way the guy works and the woman stays home and takes care of the kids and cleans the house and he takes care of the mortgage I think that’s very fair. Nowadays a woman works part time later on down the road so she can buy herself some things like purses etc. etc.
Hey buddy 😊
I work full time and thats to support the family. In my parents case my mom actually made more money than he did and worked equal or more hours but he still expected her to clean. It seemed to be ongoing theme
It's overwhelmingly women who preserve them. And most of the men that conform to them do so to meet the demands on women. For example, you don't see men complain that a woman spent money on them, but when all the first date "who pays" questions come along many women will be bothered if you *don't* spend money on them. It's pretty fkd up.
I've never dated a guy so I can't speak to how first dates go. I would imagine though that it too is part of an antiquated system.
Yes. The system where women enforce gender roles.
But it's not something that can be changed, that's just what they're attracted to and nothing will change that, hence why men just shrug and go along with it.
Its something that can and has been changed. Im just wondering why some hang on to an old way of doing things.
Because women like it. Why would they change a thing they like?
There’s no point talking to that blue anon. He is lost.
For sure, but my hope is that someone else might read it, see an opposing point of view and use critical thinking to make a more informed decision 😀
That is a very good use of a blue anon 👍🏾😂
@wittymilf That's called an excuse, if you had a point then you'd make it and diffuse the argument. Being dismissive like that is what happens when you're wrong and worried about it.
Or, and just hear me out here, that your opinion had no real redeeming qualities to need to respond to. 😊
You basically say women willingly subject themselves to something we have been fighting for years to get out of.
Yes, we know you come to such conclusions, but that’s exactly what I’m talking about. If you had anything to say in opposition you’d make a case not be dismissive out of hand. I can actually point to things that reflect reality beyond just saying so. I offered examples. You dismiss because you don’t have those resources.
As for what you “fought” for, you never fought to get rid of things you like. So no, you “fought” against the aspects that bothered you. The parts you enjoyed were rationalized as not part of that.
And this isn’t just my word. You can just put up a poll and we’ll see the answers. There’s also data we can look to, you will find little to nothing suggesting that women want to completely absolve gender roles. It’s just women being women, trying to inflate each other with the idea of tearing down gender roles, yet they love the idea of feeling feminine or “feeling like a woman”.
It’s all a just bad joke.
Prove me wrong and put me in my place, if you can.
I'm not here to put anyone into the place. That's kind of the point of you have been paying attention at all. The idea is for both sides to have equality both the good and the bad. Of course neither side WANTS the bad, but it has to be accepted if you wish to reap the benefits.
Feeling feminine has zero to do with tearing down gender roles. I am not asking you to stop feeling masculine. My ask is that guys (and girls) don't force someone into a specific task just because of their gender.
I agree with equality. Accepting the good with the bad is what’s not happening here though. That’s exactly the point, it became having only the things you like and rejecting all the things you don’t - enforcing gender roles where convenient.
If you look at the things women say appeals to them because it makes them feeling like women and they like that, these things require *gendered* treatment. That’s gender roles at work.
Okay, so that’s a simple ask. Guys aren’t making girls do anything because of their gender. That is basically my original point. But girls do expect guys to do all sorts of shit. That’s the problem.
And I don’t think I really need to feel masculine (nor most guys), but women have the greater need to feel feminine, that’s why I bring it up, because that seems to be a possible discrepancy causing the problems.
Because women generally treat men horribly who does things for them. I did so many in the past , cooking taking care when ill , do dishes , cleaning but always got treated poorly. If you do so much girls take you for granted and search for another who will do nothing... Men who help women are considered weak , beta by women. Most men who can get much women don't give a fuck at all , loads of women still want them
I'm sorry you had a bad experience in your life that led to this kind of mindset.
You serve each other. Why do women try to reform men all the time? Make them into weaklings. Why can't women admit men are the stronger sex? Why do liberal women want to spit in God's eyes?
This is why men want Asian women, they let a guy be a man.
Men are not the stronger sex though. If you mean physically the I guess you subscribe to might makes right. I would then point to the multiple sex strikes that women have staged and enacted the changes they wanted
Nobody wants to spit in your God's eyes, but not everyone believes in your God either. If a woman wants to choose that life then that's perfectly fine. It's when they both work the same number of hours at work and then they get home and the man still expects the woman to do all the house and child care too
It's not about control... even dog some men take it as control... but it's about authority equality and respect... men were created to rule and guide... under th control of Jah... so men were to teach th help mate... which is th woman and she were to make everything flourish... woman are comforters in every way... so u all are strong differently
For those who willingly want to walk that path then its absolutely fine.
Not everyone follows the same religion or any religion at all. My issue arises for those who do not want to walk that path, do not choose to be in that role but their husband expects it anyway.
That's not religion... that's life it9
Itself
It might be yours, but it isn't mine and it isn't a lot of other people's either.
Think about how good we have it. Why would we want that to change?
This is the most honest answer I can imagine. Thank you for that.
I think because, to some degree, they still remain. Gender roles aren't just a matter of giving people tasks to fulfill in society. They often times fit the capability of people. We need roles fulfilled, and it just so happens that genders with lesser muscle mass and greater observational skills are best placed in a gatherer role. It's clearly not an absolute rule, but gender roles tend to best help society by putting people in roles they're best biologically suited for.
I actually agree somewhat on this. There are things some just are better at than others. My thoughts on this topic as a whole are that I think it is blatantly unfair for a woman who works the same number of hours at work to come home and be expected to be the one to take care of the children, cook and clean, as well as any other stereotypical role. In all fairness, I also don't think women should expect men to fall into their stereotypical roles either. It should be a partnership where they discuss what needs to be done and split it up evenly.
Most guys who do this are either:
Religious
They can get easier access to labor and sex
Thank you for the response. 😊
I think you all are wrong here.
Men, women,... Nature make us different... Why do you deny that?
You all have been polluted by the feminist.
Usually in many case in the wildlife, most of the cases.. male don't take care of babies... and don't want to live with the same female all life long.
And why almost all kind of human society are the same all over the world... without any relationship between them for thousands of years?
I prefer not to work and do traditional woman things. I just find it easier, less straining and less stressful, personally.
Which is absolutely fine! It's done by choice in that situation. My question is more along the lines were both partners work and the expectation is still that a woman is responsible for the house work and child rearing.
In that case I think it’s up to women to make sure they aren’t being taken advantage of. Men will do bare minimum if they feel they can do that with u. At least... that’s what I’ve witnessed.
That makes sense. Someone in this thread something similar to guys not wanting to give up their advantage. I am hoping women do start standing up for themselves more often in this area
Everybody has gender roles and not only guys hold onto them.. Men and women are not interchangeable.. We each other strengths and weaknesses that help us to compliment each other.. That's why gender roles exist, and they have worked since the dawn of mankind.. But now that women have the safety, and more choices many just think they can do it all, when really men built the world around them.. Because of gender roles we are were we are today.. And feminism is or has destroyed that notion..
That is completely dismissive of women's abilities and the roles they had in also building society. Where we are today is men losing some of that power they have enjoyed for all this time and it is scaring them.
Not at all.. Women had their roles too.. It's the truth.. I didn't say only men built society.. I said men built the world around us.. Women and men made society through team work.. And not at all.. The power that men acquired was because it was required of them.. Men and women for most of history were powerless.. Plus no woman wanted to be with a good for nothing weak man.. There is no competition between women and men.. Feminist wanted to make it a competition.. As you can see even today more girls will make onlyfans to get the money of hard working men.. What's happening today is that women are becoming more unhappy and it's driving a wedge between women and men because feminist made it complicated and spread the "patriarchy" lie..
You said that men built the society around women. You never gave women credit in your opinion. Men acquired power through physical dominance. Back then women didn't even have anywhere near the same rights we do today and we are still trying to get to equal.
I'm not going to shame those who choose sex work as a job. They don't force anyone to give them money. Men and women willingly give it to them.
There is no lie in the inequality currently existing. It's better than it used to be, but it still has a long way to go and it is because women are using their voice to point out the differences.
That's not what I said.. I said men built the world.. I said that because I was trying to make the point that there is no competition.. And I was answering the question.. And men didn't physically dominate anybody but other men to get power.. Like I said there was no competition between men and women.. Men died in wars, died in mines, killed for women, put women and children first.. Feminism didn't really do anything.. Like I said many women didn't care much about voting because they didn't want the responsibility that came with it..
As for sex work that's not the point I was making at all.. I was saying that women despite having more freedom to do what they want than most men and women throughout history, they still choose to make onlyfans accounts..
And what inequality? Lol. Women have every right and more than what many men have.. In fact unmarried women who never had children make more than unmarried men, the STEM fields are twice as likely to hire women than men.. Women have much more scholarships than men do.. Women have the choice to be a stay at home mom or a working woman.. Women get child custody 85% of the time, and Alimony majority of the time.. Women have over 2000 Domestic violence shelters in the U. S despite domestic violence between men and women being about equal.. Women are seen as perpetual victims yet the heroes in society overcoming the "oppressive patriarchy".. There's no inequality.. And there's no voices that need to be heard that wasn't already heard in the 70s..
Well, this is certainly an opinion that has been addressed a few times and I have been doing this for nearly two days. I am just too tired to rehash the same argument and breaking all the inaccuracies down again.
Thank you for your response though.
"I am just too tired to rehash the same argument and breaking all the inaccuracies down again.".. I basically just broke all of your inaccuracies down, and you really brought the same ol "women are still not equal argument" which has been debunked many times.. Nothing you said had any substance or was anything new.. And I made quite a few opinions so you would have to address which one.. But okay nice job trying to save face for the fact that you can't address half of what I said.. But okay you have a nice one..
? Maybe in Southeast Asia or The American Deep South Antebellum country, I grew up in the Rocky Mountains and we don’t treat our women like that, we are protective but do not wish to be catered to hand and foot.
Well, I dont think it specifically is region locked. In my case I live in the southwest US and and my dad and brothers are very much that way.
Glad to hear you are not among then though 😊
We don't need women to serve us. This is bullshit and you know it.
Because I could say that men going to work is them serving women.
Being a housewife isn't service, it's doing you part in a relationship
And if the woman works 40 hours like the husband why is she still expected to be the one to take care of the house?
For the same reason a man works 40 hours and is still expected to take his wife out on a date or fix the sink.
Also , women wanted to work. You demanded equality. That doesn't then magically absolve you from other things just like men aren't absolved from being drafted for war because we work 40 hours.
Men also take care of the house by repairing things when needed
Is taking your wife out on a date really a gender role specific thing?
I never said that women should no longer need to help around the house. This is a question of when they are both working 40 hours but the guy still expects her to be the one to do all the housework.
If I were married to a guy I wouldn't expect him to fix a thing, I can call a professional to come out and fix it.
Yes. Men are expected to take women on dates as a sign of appreciation.
I've never been asked out on a date by a woman so I'm guessing it's because women expect men to do that.
It's not expected of women to do all of the house work , but it is expected that that's her primary responsibility.
You could call a professional. You can also hire a maid to do the housework.
Well, I can't speak as to why you haven't been asked out but it should work both ways in my opinion.
I think it's a fine line when you say expected to do housework. If both are working 40 hour shifts than both should be expected to split the work evenly. It should not be expected for the woman to be the primary on those tasks.
That's basically all my argument boils down to. For couples to come together and decide willingly what works best for them. If shouldn't just be one side or the other with expectations something has to be done one way because of their gender.
I haven't been asked out because:
1. I'm no attractive
2. Women don't ask men out because Men have to do that and always have done that.
Obviously there are exception but generally speaking it's a man's "job" to ask a woman out.
It's not a fine line. Women do housework and men work outside the home to earn money. You can even see this distinction in the type of work women do at jobs. Women aren't doing construction because of the physically demanding nature of the work. They usually do jobs that don't require physical strength or stamina.
Even at my work, women don't do anything that is perceived as " man's work".
Women ask guys out all the time. My best friend asked her current boyfriend out in fact. It's not a man or a woman's job, its just whoever is brave enough to ask first.
Women work outside the home all the time. There are men who work inside the home. It's not a gender thing.
No they don't do it all the time. Because if they did we wouldn't have this stereotype.
Yeah they do. Because they wanted to.
No men don't do that on average.
We have a stereotype from a history of men needing to court women and requesting their fathers permission. That is a lingering trend that isn't as true today as it was then.
It's not about if it is average it is that it exists at all. The point is, if both are employeed working the same number of hours then both should be contributing equally at home.