Why do guys so fiercely hold on to the outdated notion of gender roles and women needing to serve them?

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Don't get me wrong, I know it's not all guys. I am just curious about the ones who do. For you is it just a power trip thing and the need to feel control? Is it just the ease of not having to do things for yourself? Is it a learned behavior from how you were raised? I'm genuinely curious.

My dad was very much this way and I hated it. My brothers ended up learning those traits while I fought against them. I think it should be an equal give and take in all aspects of a marriage.

Updates

+1 y

I think that's a little presumptuous to think that women look for someone who makes more when in I would feel they are looking more for someone to be a partner with.

Updates

+1 y

I have loved having conversations with all of you on this topic! Not all of them ended with a mutual understanding, but I do hope we can see that open dialogue is not a bad thing. I have been doing my best to respond to everyone on here and if I missed you, I am very sorry. It wasn't that your opinion was any less valid, I just have been at this all day and missed it by accident. Thank you all so much for your participation on this and I hope all of you have a wonderful day!

[btbc92]

Because that is the way of LIFE. It is not outdated, it is part of life and every person, male and female DO have a JOB to do. It is not guys who hold on to it, it is all of us, male and female who understand how life is run. It is people who don't understand life are who will struggle MORE in life than others who understand their purpose in life.

1. Gender roles are more than just serving, it is about doing. Because we all need to survive.

I

n a family and marriage dynamic: A man's role is to lead, protect, provide and love. A woman's role is to follow (and only lead when a man isn't able), to be of service and to help. To be honest, we have far less work than men do because it is done for us to learn to be subservient to each other. God had designed us to be equal as humans, but also to develop as we produce fruits within ourselves. It is both a physical and spiritual component to this. Either you produce good seed or bad seed. What is produced in your life and your character and your SOUL as a result? I can only answer these questions as a woman who understands how God originally designed it for men:

" For you is it just a power trip thing and the need to feel control?" If they are loving and mature men, no. It is not about feeling the need to control. All of us want some type of control, and I can say that as a woman. However, it requires TRUST and LOYALTY to be able to fulfill that area. The problem is for centuries, men have been lied to about women being of the devil and an enemy. The trust God didn't have for women or men to be in sin nature. ALL OF US is guilty of sin and because of sin, we fight each other, end up hating each other, killing each other, hurting each other, steal, rape, you name it. Men developed pride, women developed manipulation. Both developed evil. If a man isn't taught properly in what is expected of him as a leader, they tend to fail as one. This is why we see the same problems in the workplace, politics, education, etc.

Men have to learn to grow into leadership as we do. But women have their own way of leadership as followers. I can say this as somebody who is a giver and naturally submissive by nature, but I also have an independent personality as an INFJ. I can safely tell you would you treat a good meek man that way like in fictional movies such as Aragon from LOTRs or others with that behavior? I bet you wouldn't. You would be shocked, yet he needs you to trust him and what is best for you. Your stubbornness in negativity and desire to CONTROL YOUR LIFE will only make you miserable and alone. If you cannot find yourself to submit to a man, that is the wrong man to pursue to date and to marry.

2. "Is it just the ease of not having to do things for yourself?" Question, did you ask this for yourself? If you can do everything then you don't need a man. But WHY want one? What does it benefit or help that man? Relationships are about growth. A man is BUILT and designed to have a helpmeet. But not all are called to marriage or having sex specifically with a woman and vice versa. If you are not called for that, then you shouldn't worry about gender roles or a man in your life. That is the concern for those who desire a man and to be married. Again, a man is called to leadership and we are called to follow. If it is not of your desire to have a man, then it doesn't apply to you. But it if far from being outdated, it is the way of life. Notice how society is now crumbling because this is not being held the way it needed to, and some are surviving but plenty is failing.

[btbc92]

3. "Is it a learned behavior from how you were raised? " It is taught and it is innate as it is for a woman to naturally do so. I always knew this about myself without necessarily being taught that. And while my own father was toxic because he didn't have a good structure at home himself. He failed to realize that he needed God and a lot of growing up to do. But because he got sexually involved so early as a child, he already has over 40 sex partners besides my mom! My mom always wanted to be loved by a man, but sadly these desires end up attracting the WRONG kind of man who WANTS to be in control of a woman because of many HATES women. Again, it is about the hatred and the intent, NOT the gender roles themselves. A loving woman would ALWAYS wants to submit, love, and please her husband. And a loving husband would do anything to lead, provide, protect and adore his woman! That is the healthy atmosphere children need to see and they in turn desire to do the same. Now on to why you feel that way about your father.

[btbc92]

You have to understand that your problem has 0 to do with traditional or gender roles, but the abuse you suffered at the hands of your human father who doesn't know what it means to uphold those standards because men have been falsely taught to rule with an iron fist and to mistreat anybody who doesn't listen, respect or feed their wickedness. They pick women to use and abuse. A good man doesn't do that. He doesn't see the need to control anyone. His job is to control himself. But he does look for women who naturally have a desire to submit and desire HIM. A man cannot serve a woman if there is no woman to desire to serve him. A woman who has a desire to serve is a woman's way to show love to a man. A man recognizes this and his heart now desires to love her because she already gives what he already needs which is by giving to others by the strength of her character, heart, and soul. HOWEVER, the problem is there is much wickedness and evil in this generation as the word of God says. A person with a righteous heart also desires somebody who is similar to their own. So please do not model your father's behavior as to be all for men as gender and sex. We have all are a victim of satan's lies.

[btbc92]

Everybody is responsible for themselves. Men and women are expected to behave accordingly because without it chaos ensures as you now see today. Nobody wants to be responsible anymore. This is why we have so much violence, rape, cheating, divorces, fights, etc. Because people think their ADULTS, but their really immature CHILDREN in their minds and their souls have not matured at all.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Oooh a long one. Ok let's break this down.

We do have a job, but it doesn't mean the woman is the only one that is capable of doing stereotypical "female roles". A man can change a diaper or cook a meal just as easily. There are a lot of women who are more knowledgeable than their spouse when it comes to things like fixing cars or appliances.

A man's role is not to lead nor is a woman's role to follow. They should walk side by side, with their own thoughts and ideas but speak in one voice through mutual agreement.

I didn't want or need a man. I am happily married to another woman and have been in a very happy relationship for nearly 19 years now. We have 2 very intelligent and healthy children. I am neither miserable or alone.

Society isn't crumbling anymore than it was before, the difference is that it is much easier to see things in real time.

I don't begrudge anyone's religious beliefs. I am honestly glad you have found a spiritual belief you are willing to follow. In my example, you have willingly chosen that life and I wish you all the best within it.

[btbc92]

Asker. Your not getting it. If you are not called to be with a man. It is now your job to handle and take care of yourself. That is now your job and job alone. But if you desire a man and to keep him, you have to hold your end as he is. If you cannot respect that man, he will leave you for somebody who will. And if you get a man who just listens to you, then it is you who is controlling and selfish and a man cannot grow. He will be stifled and miserable while you will grow resentful and bitter. That will be the ending result.

"We do have a job, but it doesn't mean the woman is the only one that is capable of doing stereotypical "female roles". A man can change a diaper or cook a meal just as easily. There are a lot of women who are more knowledgeable than their spouse when it comes to things like fixing cars or appliances." You are missing the point with this. Gender roles have nothing to do with that. Gender roles have to do with submission, learning to care for each other, and respecting the man of the house. God comes first, Jesus is after, a man is next, we are after the man, and the children are after us. That is the structure of the order God has commanded human beings. PERIOD.

[btbc92]

It doesn't matter what religion, race, or whatever you called yourself. If you are female and you desire a mate, you must follow whomever you CHOSEN. That's it. It is YOUR responsibility to pick a man whom you can follow respectfully. Again, if you are not called for marriage, then sex and a man, if not a family isn't for you. Then you may be called to celibacy as I had chosen celibacy. I have no man, but Jesus and God in my life, the male friends I have and my father. That's it. I have not dated a man. Never touched a man and is a virgin. I know my place. Therefore, it is my responsibility to pay my own bills, cook, clean etc. If I chose marriage, I am to be subservient to my husband whoever I chose. That's it. Once you have sex, you technically married. There is no ifs, ands, or buts about it. It doesn't matter who changes the diaper or changes the oil of your car. Whoever is able, must get the work done. That has 0 to do with gender roles, but being able to split the jobs to whoever is most capable.

[btbc92]

If you as a woman isn't good at changing diapers, then LEARN. If you're not good at cooking and cleaning and sewing, LEARN. it is your job to learn SOMETHING or all of you are in TROUBLE. Now if you know how to change a tire, that's great. But gender roles again have nothing to do with that. It is just at that time period. it is was preferred, and I have studied and passed classes on Ancient and Medieval History. They didn't have cars, and all of this new stuff today. Today we have to try to adapt to a certain agreement. But women will always be more suitable in handling certain jobs at the home than men. WHY? Because many have been taught this in environments especially if there are more females than men in the home. Most men have no time to cook, to clean, to sew, or do anything. They had to work on the farm as some women had to do, or they had to go out there and find jobs. Otherwise, you had the military. What was available to you is what you either take or don't. That's it. It's SURVIVAL. As the word of God says. You don't WORK, you don't EAT. So either you have time to bicker and argue and waste your time not getting work done, or you learn to bite your tongue, put away the pride and get to work. Somebody has to do the work or be without. But again, you chose a woman. How can you learn what and why women and men need each other when you chose to want and need a woman? You cannot learn this from the same sex. You can only learn this from the opposite. That's not religion. That's facts.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I'm not sure either of us are going to agree to meet in the middle on this one. Again, I respect your religious beliefs but it is not for everyone.

In my case, my destiny was with the woman I married. That was the path that was set before me. It has been incredibly successful and not once have I ever felt an emptiness because of it.

Your wording is incredibly dismissive of the capability of me being able to observe and communicate with those in that role who are seriously dissatisfied with that arrangement of gender roles. Our experiences in life are different and not one way is right or wrong. We have found paths that work for us.

You choose a pecking order where you are comfortable in the shadow of a male. Even if I were straight, my place would be at his side as we walk in pace with one another. We support each other, not by falling into gender specific roles, but by working around our strengths and weaknesses. If I can't stand cleaning bathrooms and he doesn't mind then he can take that job. If he doesn't want to cut grass or work a field or whatever else you consider male roles and I dont mind, then I am going to do it. It's a support system of equality and communication, not one of obeying the order of another.

[MzAsh]

Studies show that even as women earn more money and contribute finances to the household, men are still falling behind in cooking, cleaning, and childcare.
I believe men have been conditioned to think if certain tasks as feminine. Even Donald Trump had bragged about how he didn’t change his kids diapers or push them in strollers because that’s woman’s work.

This must change, but it’s mostly women who can change that by creating boundaries around these things. Quit giving any of your time or attention to men who don’t pull their own weight in the home or with the kids.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Beautifully said! This is exactly the point I was trying to make. A lot of these responses have been about "well if I am making the money" but I dont think many read the description below it.

[MzAsh]

I have a hard time believing most of the men here are making more than most women. Most of these guys are likely making a measly $60 k a year and calling it “making the money.” Year right lol.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Oh, you know how it is on the internet. They are the greatest things since sliced bread. 😉

[chris_987]

Don’t women want traditional man. Who makes more than them and chivalrous? Why are acting like women aren’t for the same things

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Some I am sure do, but not all and the conversation is about those who don't willingly accept the role not being forced into it just because of their gender.

[chris_987]

I don’t understand what you mean but whatever

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Good talk 😁

Have a great day!

[MrOracle]

Why does women earning money mean that men should do more cooking, cleaning, and childcare? Are men now having to do less maintenance of the yard, the house, the cars? Not in my experience.

This is part of the problem: women want men to do a greater share of her tasks, but she's not about to dig a ditch or build a fence or change the starter on the car because that's "men's work". Why does this "equality" always transfer benefit to women and responsibility to men?

[JDavid25]

"Most of these guys are likely making a measly $60 k a year and calling it “making the money.” 😂😂.. Geez spoken like a true upperclass elite..

[MzAsh]

Mr Oracle, the principle is on each partner pulling their own weight and contributing a relatively equal share of the responsibilities.

If the woman works a full time job and contributes half of financial responsibilities, why should she also be doing most of the cooking, cleaning, child care, etc. Those responsibilities should also be divided evenly between the two. However, studies are showing women who work and pay half of rent and utilities are still doing the majority of the housework and child care. This wouldn’t fly in my household.

[MzAsh]

JDavid, I’ve been working my way up from having no money. I grew up lower middle class. However, I think society grossly undervalues services such as cooking, cleaning, child care, etc. Do you know how much personal maids, nannies, butlers make when they are paid what they’re time she effort is worth? It exceeds the amount someone making 60k a year can afford.

[Peter0076]

Studies show that when women make a lot of money they usually don't give any dollar to her husband and keep all for her and children.
Often Men must always give money to his wife.. but almost never when girl make money...

[MrOracle]

But why is it only the cooking and housework needs to be "divided" - but not the "men's work"? That's my issue. You want to trade cooking a dinner for rotating the tires? Great! You want to trade cleaning the windows for cleaning the gutters? Sure! I have no issue with a reasonable division of labor, but you can't only divide the "traditional female labor" and not divide the "male labor" too.

[MzAsh]

I agree. I would encourage a division of those tasks as well.

[razelove]

Because that's reality. Knock on Islam all you want, but the women in their countries are pretty happy, and the crime rate is low. Here you have more drug consumption than anywhere else in the world. Also 40 year old women with daddy issues because he wanted a traditional family...

The reason to hold on to those "outdated notions" is building a family. One that involves marriage and children. You know, the best tool you can equip yourself and children with, a nuclear family. Move away from that and you see more teen pregnancies, and more single mothers in your age range, which is exploding, single mothers in the 40-45 range that is. There are outliers, but the best prediction of success for a child is having both parents around, and in single parent households having a father.

I take it you're considering having a child, or recently had one?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3172319/

[Ez-Bri-Z]

You can build a family without holding on to outdated nations just fine.

Single moms are some of the hardest workers out there so let's not act as if that is a bad thing.

My wife and I already have 2 kids ages 6 and 8 and do absolutely A-ok without a father around.

I am not knocking on any religion. My father was lazy, plain and simple. For others who like this type of set up, ok, but in my opinion and apparently others with similar mind sets whether they be male, female or any spectrum in between, the real reason seems to be that men don't like giving up that power they have. I am not saying men haven't typically provided that role in the past, but now with more women working it is time to move past those trains of thought and move more to an equal partnership. Not one where a woman is expected to fill a role just because of her gender.

(For the record, I am speaking on behalf of women but guys should also not be expected to fill a particular role because of their gender either.)

[razelove]

Your dynamic is different than the expectations or desires of heterosexual men and women. You have a household with two partners raising a child... but it's bad if it's a man and a woman?

Sorry you had a lazy dad, but from what you're saying you have a good life, the life you desire now, so obviously he did something right, even if it was simply being there.

I think the bigger problem isn't men not wanting to give up power they had in the past for hetero couples now, it's that neither side is willing to compromise. Men still expect women to be subservient (for lack of a better word), but aren't willing to provide. Women expect men to provide, but aren't willing to be subservient. I know there are exceptions, but you have to have seen more of this mismatch than I have over the years.

It's created a situation now where neither side (by and large) will compromise on their expectations to date, much less marry and have children. It really is ridiculous if you zoom out and look at the complaints of both, and how petty they are. It's terrifying when you realize the impact that will have on an entire generation going forwards. You know as well as I do that divide is only going to grow larger, not become reconciled.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

He wasn't there honestly. He relied on my mom on everything and when she wasn't available we were either grounded all night for the smallest infractions or told to get out of the house and not come back until dinner.

My relationship is a strong one. I never said it was bad if it is was a man or a woman, just asking why their as an expectation for women to do certain roles if they are working the same number of hours as a guy which was typically the male role while the wife was the homemaker. If the wife is now doing his role then why is it not being reciprocated?

[razelove]

My dynamic right now is reversed, and it causes both of us stress. Me constantly feeling "I can do more" even if I take the kids out playing most of the day, cook something, and have the house clean. In my wife's case stressing out over work and dropping more balls because of the pressure of being sole provider.

Covid hit, I quit my job out of state before we really knew what was going on, got back home, bought a house in a less densely populated area with a water well, and shortly after the daycares shut down. Now my field, chemistry, is looking pretty grim right now, so it looks like I'll be going back to school to change to nursing so I can get back into the workforce at a rate where the new prices of daycare can be affordable, at least make as much as I was before.

Hell, my last job offer was 14.50/hr part time to manufacture drugs. I can make that much in retail, scary thought on the QC for that drug manufacturing. How good of talent are you going to attract for that little money? Someone's going to take the gig, and a good number of people will ingest those drugs later though. Maybe they'll raise the pay after the first few dozen lawsuits, or just go out of business.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

First off let me start off by saying I'm deeply sorry for your situation. I know this pandemic has affected a lot of families and I don’t wish to see anyone having to struggle.

I think both of you are experiencing a side that isn't typical and gives both insight into how roles used to be done. I think this is why I have been pushing for the gender role dynamic to be examined here. Splitting those duties helps alleviate stress when both are working equal hours

[razelove]

Ok, and how do you see that working out with daycare that is expensive and prone to shutting down if one person is sick? Employers tend to appreciate employees who, you know, can show up to work. I took a lower paying job that would pay very little after day-care costs, but could not sustain it because of that. It lasted less than 2 weeks.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

The same way we all have in the same conditions, we find alternatives.

I feel like we are a little off topic here though.

[razelove]

Not so much, the topic is relationships, families and the dynamics they flourish in. Your premise being that outdated gender roles are harmful.

I am adapting to this situation, we as a family are, and the desired outcome on both sides is for me to be the bread-winner again so whether my wife wants to keep working or not, that stress isn't on her anymore.

It loops back around to dating as well and the double standards of men and women. Men who are unwilling to provide, and women who are unwilling to compromise. How many of your peers are single with unrealistic standards?

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Adaption is the idea. Not staying with the same outdated mindset of "this is a man's job, this is a woman's job". Its up to the couple to work on it together equally.

[Shihab91]

Serving me? But i will go to work everyday and spend my money of her and our kids and sure. I will help her sometimes or during weekends, it's not serving its collaboration.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

In this case it's not a primary breadwinner situation. If both are working full-time then why has the expectations at home not moved with it in some cases? In my case, my mom worked more hours than my dad and did overnights but he expected her to also cook him dinner and raise us kids. My brothers learned that behavior too. My question is why does that mindset still exist when their is no longer the excuse of the man being the only one to work?

[Shihab91]

Well this will be long discussion, but I'm not sure about your dad but if both work outside then they both should work inside so she cook i do something else... This is my short answer in my opinion if the man salary is enough its better for the wife to stay home.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Why would it be better? There are a lot of women who would rather be in the workforce than be stuck at home. Also if there is an opportunity to have more income why would you not want that? What if she makes more money? Are you willing to quit you job to go be a stay at home husband instead?

[Shihab91]

The man can't raise kids as women does and no if my salary is enough then i don't care about extra income raising kids is more important. If she wants to work its up to her i might help in home but mainly home work is on her because i didn't force her to work in the first place. When you look at the numbers of divorce it's scary in the past it was way better. When each one has a role you can feel your partner value.

[Shihab91]

In today world we need better women to raise better kids that's what's the world really need not just a woman that pay tax.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Then I kinda see that as a failing as a father. A father should be able to raise his children just as capably as a mother.

Your role is to be an equal partner and split the tasks evenly, not expect her to do everything if she wants to have a life outside the home.

[Shihab91]

Not really when kids are young they need emotions and moms are better at this for sure. Father's role is guiding them and help with decision making. I don't expect her to do everything by herself she is not going to lift heavy things, or work when she is sick , she won't cook all 3 meals daily, i would take kids to school or and bring them back or take them to play if she wants to relax , i would do go shopping for home needs.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Women are better at this because men are taught to repress them. If it was encouraged to be able to express yourself and show emotions this wouldn't be as hard for men.

I am glad you are willing to help when she doesn't feel good but it shouldn't be ONLY when she doesn't feel good.

[Shihab91]

But hey i will go to work spend my money on her even if i hate my work, i will fix stuff even if i don't feel like it. And i didn't mean only when she isn't good. I will cook a meal from time to time or give her a rest and take her to a restaurant let's say 2-3 time per month ( even if she is good ) i would stay home with kids if one day she want to go out with her friends. For the emotions part i will reply tomorrow , good night for now 😴

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Thank you for the conversation. Have a wonderful night!

[Shihab91]

thank hope you had a wonderful day/night as well, so for the emotional part women have more love for kids mercy towards kids in general sure the man loves his kids and even ready to put his life on the line for them but men less patience with kids while women have more love towards them. I don't know how to explain this but motherhood provides something fathers can't do.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

But that isn't a behavior that cannot be learned. There are very empathetic men who do amazing jobs at being their for their kids both as a protector and for them emotionally. Patience isn't a gendered thing. It's just a matter of self control.

I know as a mother of 2 that I would easily put my life on the line for my children.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Also... yes it was a great evening 😊

[Shihab91]

but because the mother has more emotions towards her kids she can be more patient. In general, males tend to care about things more than people, while females care more about people that's why for example women better at be nurses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvDrHUQH1UE
the fatherhood role is more important when they are a teenager ( doesn't mean it's not important when they are kids ) the motherhood is more important when they are kids ( again doesn't mean it's not important when they are adults ).
and that's why in Islam Prophet Muhammad said :
A person came to Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and asked, "Who among people is most deserving of my fine treatment?" He (ﷺ) said, "Your mother". He again asked, ''Who next?" "Your mother", the Prophet (ﷺ) replied again. He asked, "Who next?" He (the Prophet (ﷺ)) said again, "Your mother." He again asked, "Then who?" Thereupon he (ﷺ) said," Then your father."

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Absolutely beautiful 😊

I really should take more time to learn more about other religions. It's not that I don't believe in any of them, I just don't profess to know which is right and prefer to live my life by the motto "don't be a jerk to others". So maybe taking additional time to really read into other religions may guide me in some way.

That being said, yes, I think it is easier for women on the whole to build emotional connections, but it isn't something that can't be learned by males.

[Shihab91]

to explain something I might miss indeed we need women to work outside we need female doctors or policewomen after all in some cases women know how to deal with each other and sometimes they are more comfortable dealing with other females. my mum is an English teacher. but when there are kids it's more important in my opinion to stay with them and when they grow up she can focus on herself.
anyway yes indeed read about other religions I did read about Christianity and you always learn things.
May Allah ( God ) guide us to the right path.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I have no problem with it as long as it is what she chooses to do. 😊

Thank you so much for your time in speaking with me on this topic. I have loved speaking with you and I wish you all the best in life.

[Shihab91]

Thanks enjoyed talk to you as well, good luck

[OlderAndWiser]

I hold on to traditional gender roles but not as something that should be forced on anyone. I like traditional roles which are voluntarily accepted by both men and women, with women needing to serve men AND men needing to serve women!

I think it is obvious that American society has decayed as the traditional American family has slowly disappeared from the landscape. I mean no disrespect to you, in your situation, or to anyone who is trying to be a single parent, but a woman cannot be both mother and father, and two women cannot be both mother and father. Obviously, many well-intended people try their hardest to be the best parent they can be, but you cannot, by sheer force of will, make yourself become something that you are not.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I'm not trying to make myself a father and neither is she. We are trying to be a good parent regardless of gender.

I had a mother and father and my father did nothing for me than to teach me how to fend for myself because he certainly wasn't doing it for me. For my brothers he taught them how to repeat the same cycle.

I do agree on the first part though. Those roles should not be forced, but if the couple both consent to it then I am not debating that part. I am happy they found what works for them. My question is for those who just expect the woman to fall into that role regardless if they want to or not.

[OlderAndWiser]

You may have some difficulty with this topic because your personal experience is with a father who was just a man with that tile, but he didn't do that job. A GOOD father can do things for children that a woman cannot do, just as a mother can do things that a father cannot do.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I don't debate that. My male examples were not very influential in a positive way.

I mean this in an actual serious way, what can they offer that is so different?

[OlderAndWiser]

Women tend to be very nurturing and protective of children. They want to shield children from the evils of the adult world. Fathers tend to be deficient in those areas.

Fathers tend to see their job as preparing children to handle the world on their own, pushing the baby birds out of the nest so they can learn to fly on their own. Mothers are not as good at that function.

Sometimes, people are stronger at the role opposite their gender, but very few people are capable of doing both roles as well as two people can separately do those things.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I would hope fathers would want to shield their children from the evils of the world. Both can be nurturing.

In my case we keep a good balance of both letting our children experience life on their own and making their own informed decisions while also ensuring they don't go as far to endangering themselves. We want our children to have their own thoughts on politics, religion, education and society as a whole. When they went to daycare it was a religious based one. The kids came home and wanted to include prayer at meals. We rolled with it because it was an experience they wanted to explore. When the election came up and my son took a huge interest in it, I explained things in the best way I knew how. On Jan 6th and a mob stormed the capitol, that was an incredibly hard conversation to have, but I didn't shy from any question he had.

There are a lot of single mothers who raise incredibly well mannered men. Ours just happen to have two mothers who try to keep them on the same path and ensure they don't have that missing experience.

[Peter0076]

I think we should change society.
Why not to live separate? Everybody and we all will know exactly what to do...
Kids one month with father and one month with father. No more wedding and men and women will be ok

[Ez-Bri-Z]

.. what?

[Peter0076]

Yes imagine a new world where men and women would live separate.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Sounds horrible.

[OlderAndWiser]

@Peter0076 Did some girl try to surgically remove your manhood when she was on the way out the door? You sound bitter.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Lmao

[HawkPerception]

I look for girls that actually want an equal relationship and are enlightened in that sense. There's pretty much no difference in income nowadays and your income depends on your field and career path you choose. If a girl isn't willing to pay for her own bill on a date, I'm not going on it. I address these things from the start before even going on one. It shows that she's entitled and wants to be provided for in days of equality and that she isn't looking for a partner, but someone to provide for her. I want a partner in everything. We take turns cooking, take turns with chores, if we have kids then we take turns for diaper duty. I want a partner in all aspects of life. Someone I can lean on as much as they lean on me. And don't get me wrong... in the bedroom, I think most of the time the guy is supposed to be the dominant one. I still like a feminine girl and I like being the one with masculine traits. I think they compliment each other in that regard. But I believe in a relationship, your partner should always be on equal footing.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

This is the type of personality I hope that others eventually come to, equal partnership.

Bedroom roles is completely different. In the bedroom I am completely submissive, but if I had married a man I wouldn't want it to be anything but equal.

[KrakenAttackin]

@ez-bri-z. Bedroom roles are indicative of the overall relationship.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Not in the slightest. Sometimes a person can be completely dominant in their day to day life but like to give up control in the bedroom.

[KrakenAttackin]

I've not seen that but I will assume you have "sampled" more than I have.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I don’t need to have sampled anything. There is this new invention called actually communicating with your peers. Do you think all your bedroom stuff stays secret?

[HawkPerception]

@KrakenAttackin My ex was by no means submissive in every day life. She was no pushover and always stood her ground when she held a view and we always shared the work when it came to cooking and cleaning, but in the bedroom, she was completely submissive and loved getting spanked and choked. You are entirely wrong about the bedroom being indicative of the entire relationship.

[razelove]

I have to concede that point to her, and you don't have to look far, just go visit a dungeon. There's one in about every area. You might have a housewife putting the clamps to someone, or an executive on the receiving end of that treatment, who they are there, and who they are when they leave are different people. I mean, there are those that live the life, but that's much less than those that play rough occasionally.

[Leavesbound]

I have played both dominant and submissive roles in a relationship. Over time I have found that I like equality in the relationship everywhere except the bedroom where I prefer she be in charge. The women I have been in a relationship with have all been more imaginative in the bedroom than I have so it has paid to have them in charge there for me personally.

But when it comes to dividing up responsibilities and who is in charge of what I find it best if we come up with some sort of system where we are both equal partners. In my most recent relationship I have been the cook in the family because she couldn't boil water. I did laundry but she ironed because she was way pickier about that than I was. I'm better at doing windows but she was better at the floors. I'm better at gardening and she was better at fixing the car. I was also better at decorating the house and doing her hair and makeup. She was better at earning money. But I write better so I would right up her reports for her job for her. She could sing and dance and I couldn't hold a note and would trip over my own feet. When we went fishing I'd be the one to bait the hook because she was too squeamish.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

@Leavesbound That's exactly how I feel it should be. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. There should be a discussion about how to split tasks at home and it's not just assumed one gender or the other is expected to do a specific job because that's a "man/woman's job"

Bedroom stuff though... yeah that's all what you are into 😉

[fjh80]

It's pretty disturbing that you see it as women serving men. One could turn it around and say it was men serving women. Men had to go out all day to work. They ran down their bodies over decades to provide a home for their families.
See how that works?

The truth is, people want to have families. It's man and woman who work together to make this work.

Don't let people tell you're oppressed. That's where this comes from.

Sure there are many examples of this being unfair to one or the other, but that's not the majority. Also, among these examples are examples of this situation not being fair to men. The difference is, men aren't likely to complain the same as women because we don't have that luxury.

By today's standards? Yeah, may be outdated, but somethings will never change. One of those things is that mothers should always have to birth children, and carry them. The vast majority of the time, they have the father of the baby to support, protect, and provide for them. Is it so much to ask that she provide or care for him in return?

It sounds like you were raised, or at least taught to resent this 'dynamic' between the sexes. Maybe you have an idea in your head of a woman in barefoot in the kitchen with an apron serving her man.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not taking away from the woman's role in the family unit. In fact I have the upmost respect for women. They carry and birth children. That's only the start of it.
The thing is, society seems to be conditioning the next generations of women to feel like they're being oppressed. Don't fall into that trap.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Well in my description I covered the particulars of what I was referencing.

Women work just as hard in the workplace if not harder in some cases while also carrying children and being expected to maintain the home. My description also says that I realize it isn't all men. It states for the purposes of where the expectations are there even when both supply financially.

The stereotypical gender role idea wasn't my idea, its what my dad tried to instill in all of us.

You don't feel like there is oppression because you haven't been on the otherside of it.

There are so many expectations of women that aren't even as obvious as what is stated in here. Microagressions in the workplace for example. (Having to work harder to have ideas heard. I had a particular case where a coworker I trained on how to use a system tried to explain to me how it works later. He was wrong by the way.)

Social interactions is another. (I can't just state a similar opinion as a guy without being considered a b*tch by some.)

[MrOracle]

You can't overlook the biology. Women, not men, get pregnant, give birth, breastfeed, and are thus primarily responsible for infants. And when this happens, and women are taking time off work, men do what? Keep working.

And the fact is that women who. have several children generally CHOOSE to take extended time from work, because she WANTS to stay home and raise them. And I'm not at all suggesting that raising children and keeping a home isn't important work - it absolutely IS, and it's work worthy of respect - but while the woman is home doing that, is the man in front of the TV playing video games? No, he's at work, earning the money. It's not like he's on vacation.

And when he gets home, I'm sure that all the "men's work" jobs are still waiting for him - the yardwork, the household repairs and maintenance, the cars, etc. Are you going to replace the water heater when it leaks, or run a new electrical circuit, or dig the tree's root system out of the front yard before it destroys the house? Or is it okay for you not to do "men's work?"

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Hi there! Thank you very much for your response.

These points have been covered several times in this thread. If you would like to go through and read some of the responses and discuss after the fact, I would be glad to discuss any additional points you'd like to bring up then.

In any case, have a wonderful day!

[Blyat76]

What exactly do you mean by gender roles? Cause historically women had a more subservient role in society due too their complete inability to physically surpass men. Men are naturally stronger, faster and are more resistant to injury. Women are smaller, when women get pregnant they have to take even greater cautions to not injure the child for several months. Women also have a have a relatively light impact on history. You'll find an endless fountain of legendary warriors, mighty kings, divine emperors, and inspiring war leaders who are all male. Men were the primary chroniclers throughout history and men were the primary subject of tales and story's. Men are also responsible for the vast majority of technology, societies, architectural feats, world wonders, and wars. I'm not saying women aren't important but you must understand that women only have VERY recently had an even noteworthy ability to impact history and society like they do today. That's fine if you don't want to have kids or whatever but understand that the whole women's rights movement is literally not even a hundred years old. My great grandmother is APPALLED at how modern women act and find them to be shameful and disgusting. I'm sure in another century or two as technology becomes even more advanced women will even be able to reach the same physical abilities as a man, by then I'm sure gender roles will be completely done away with.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

So we are subscribing to the might makes right policy here?

Women have always had a part in history, it's just they haven't always been able to get their voices out there like they can now. It's that whole victor gets to write the history type thing. Men have been in a place of power over women and so have been able to control the narrative. Some of these women's stories have been lost to time and some are finally getting their place.

As for me wanting to have kids... what? I have 2 great kids.

I am sorry your great grandmother doesn't approve of how modern women act but she is also from another time period where women didn't get much of a choice in the matter.

I fully admit things are getting better for women, but we are not there yet. Having conversations like this thread just shed some light on the experiences each side has and can maybe initiate further change using dialogue rather than other methods.

[Syrian_survivor]

It isn't outdated, it's only logical given that the man is soing his part and things are properly balanced.

The woman serves the man, and the man provide and also sometimes serves the woman, they combine their abilities in a family to make sure everyone is provided with what they need for their well-being.

The roles are there because there are things a father can't provide which a mother can, and vice versa. Gender roles in a family keep the children provided with most things they need to grow up healthy mentally and emotionally, a single mother can't achieve that no matter how much she tries, neither can a single dad.

My mother is extremely loving, nurturing, caring, and her heart is huge, she loves me so much, but my dad is a lazy couch potato with no friends, he's scared to do anything that has a tiny bit of risk, he just stays at home and makes money off of real estate and he never leaves the house.

At 16 I was extremely emotional and I lacked many of what you'd call "manly" qualities, I was sensitive and weak, though I had the ability to give so many people so much love, care, and affection without wanting anything back, I was a selfless giver but I was brittle on the inside, I'm almost 20 now and I'm filling the gaps on my own.
And also, my mother is a very strong and independant woman, she holds the whole house on her shoulders on her own, but such qualities can only be inherited from the male figure I think.

Tl;dr, gender roles are excellent when used properly and fairly, and they can be the best choice in making a happy balanced family.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

My mother was the one who taught me to be independent. In a small way my dad did too but only on the sense that I did not want to end up in the same cycle he taught to my brothers.

A single mom or dad can absolutely provide a stable home and raise happy, healthy children. To say otherwise is completely dismissive of their capabilities and sacrifice.

Nobody should be here to serve anyone. It should be working in tandem providing equally regardless of the task. I can provide financially just as well if I were married to a man. A man can clean and provide childcare just as well as I can.

[TheUniqueOne96]

Because some people just love to force their traditional values upon anyone, simple.

Some women are the same and even hypocrites about it, demanding traditional men, yet don't even want kids, refusing to play their own role.

Ultimately, I think couple need to decide what works best for them, even if it goes against the traditional way.

Just live and let live and stop trying to control people's lives, regardless of what side people are from, if you're traditional great, if you're not, great, whatever.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Perfect response. 😊

It should be a decision they both come to together willingly and not have one thrust it upon the other.

[HugoThe2nd]

Conservative views are being perpetuated because they often define a person's entire belief system.
If you were taught that "real man/woman" is supposed to act a certain way, this will often become that by which you define the value of yourself and other people.

It's no longer a question of "why", these people don't have an intrinsic motive, it's simply how they were taught to act so that they can, in their head, classify themselves as a satisfactory individual.

Why? Because that's what they think the right way to be is.
It's a very difficult thing to get out of, because in order to do so, you basically have to undermine your core values, face that, perhaps, what you were taught was misguided.

And since you don't really have any other way to intrinsically define your value, how are you going to do it? What are you going to look up to?

It's a scary thing for the ego to try and do.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I couldn't love this answer any more if I tried.

Self reflection and making changes to those core values is, as you said, incredibly difficult. I feel that if we can honestly question ourselves and our learned behaviors and give definitive answers beyond "well, I've always just done it this way", that we could truly grow as people and a society as a whole.

Change is scary, but a lack of positive change is scarier in my opinion.

[BUNroaster]

I mean I don't but I men have been taught that it was the balance of how life should be. And in a world of survival as it has been before it makes biological sense. The fault here is men then belittle the women whether unintentional or not. Anyway it is stupid but also men are ideally the ones supposed work their asses for money while women keep the house clean and cook. But now we're more just focussed on how to live life in a lot more ways so these old ideas become outdated expectations for men. Like any belief it's hard to get reality through to people who been taught their whole lives a certain way.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Very well said! Hopefully one day over time those thoughts will fully become a way of the past.

[BUNroaster]

I think it should within another decade or 2 honestly. We're progressing more and more rapidly in our ideals and approach for change it seems so I mean here's to hoping anyway

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I love the optimism! I definitely hope you are right.

[Kaneki05]

I am very anti Conservative so i have no idea. And think most if not all conservative views are bad and should stay in the past. Factually things are better today for human rights and whatever else than the past so follow the past rules which made them worse makes 0 sense.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I think my favorite answer here so far is how guys just don't want to give up their advantages they have. I think they just wrap this under the softer sounding "traditionalist" blanket so that it's easier to swallow for some people.

[Kaneki05]

Well anything that is benefical to themselves, people will selfishly want it.
Then justifty it by whatever means they tell themselves. So that for sure is correct.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Well, thank you for not being in that mindset. Hopefully more will come around to your line of thinking one day.

[Kaneki05]

Don't think so. It's kinda human nature to be selfish. But maybe i am just cynical lol.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Logically i know you are right, but let my inner optimist shine lol 😆

[GnatSocks]

Aren't you a lesbian? (I think I just saw it on another post. Your picture stood out to me.) For you, there is no difference in gender roles because there is no gender difference.

If you really want to know, though, it's what has worked in my relationships. I almost think of it as a Tango. There's a lead and a follow. The lead has to think of both, himself and the follow, and the follow has to commit to following. It's two people thinking about, and building on each other, covering their weaknesses, and tackling separate problems to make something beautiful they both enjoy. The lead isn't superior to the follow and has to consider her in everything. The follow isn't superior to the lead and should listen to what he is communicating. Now, you are focusing on the superficial aspect of "serving" the guy, and some very poor quality men are focused on their own needs and wants, but this is just as wrong as total equality, and both are feminine in thought.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I am but I do also have a father and brothers. This wasn't about my marriage. The description kinda describes this in more detail.

[GnatSocks]

Right, so you're still on the outside looking in, and passing judgement on the ideal form of a relationship because you felt controlled by your father who was wrongly motivated: "For you is it just a power trip thing and the need to feel control?" I doubt you will ever understand. Even if you think you do, it will be coupled with judgement of how it is wrong in the same way that I will never understand a lesbian, and even if I think I do, it will be coupled with judgement of how I think it is wrong.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I don't have to be within the relationship to see how miserable she was and still is. We talked about it a lot growing up.

[Steinkopf]

Because it seems to be much healthier for women statistically speaking. There are a lot of studies which show that women were happier 40 years ago, are happier in traditional areas and housewives seem to be the happiest of them all. There were also studies which prove that women are more depressed in the same working conditions compared to men. For me it's biology.
Obviously many women will dislike it but that's fine. Your mistakes - not mine.

I wouldn't benefit from it anyway since I clean my own stuff and like cooking.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Could you provide those studies please?

[MzAsh]

I think a lot of those women were “happy.” Of course. They knew of not much else. I used to volunteer in nursing homes and the stories I’ve heard about how things used to be leaving me feeling sorry for most of the women. They never knew the meaning of freedom or true independence.

[Steinkopf]

http://ftp.iza.org/dp4200.pdf
faculty.baruch.cuny.edu/.../careerwomen.pdf
http://ftp.iza.org/dp1202.pdf
de.scribd.com/.../A-Cross-Country-Investigation-of-the-Determinants-of-the-Happiness-Gender-Gap
www.researchgate.net/.../284736627_Gender_Differences_in_Subjective_Well-Being_and_Their_Relationships_with_Gender_Equality
www.researchgate.net/.../312666769_Why_Managerial_Women_are_Less_Happy_Than_Managerial_Men
Thoose are only the ones I saved. I can provide context/explanation if needed.

[Leavesbound]

Those were the studies when a pollster would go to a house and ask the man of the house if his wife was happy in her subservient role and of course the man being the man of the house said yes.

[Leavesbound]

@MzAsh My grandmothers were both born when it was illegal for women to vote. My one grandmother turned 21 shortly before women could vote for the first time and the first thing she did on the morning of her birthday was register. In fact in her diary she says when she got at the town hall to register there were about twenty women in line ahead of her. That was the grandmother who taught me how to cook. She did fill a traditional role but prior too marriage she cared for hundreds of patients at her nursing school during the last pandemic. She then became the first female lab tech at the university where she was hired and was a partner at her husband's construction firm. Then the kids came and she was later widowed and went back to being a nurse.

One thing I got from her as a guy is that I am now a much better cook than any woman I ever dated and so I am the one who takes over the kitchen.

[Leavesbound]

My great grandmother, the mother of the grandmother above, was elected to the town council in 1908 a full 12 years before she could legally vote. The men in her town were afraid of her. She was a fierce woman. She was a business owner and a midwife as well. One story my grandmother told me was how one day she was strolling in a dangerous part of the city and two young thugs attempted to mug her. She disarmed them and marched the two of them about twenty city blocks to the police station. They were balling their eyes out by the time they got there and eagerly confessed their crime just to get into a nice safe jail cell and away from my great grandmother.

Three generations of men in my family were married to three generations of suffragettes. By all accounts both the men and women were happy in general though the first generation was displeased with not being able to vote. She died in 1919. My great grandmother was elected to town council 1908, 1910, 1912, 1916, 1918, 1920, 1926, 1928, and 1930. My grandmother took care of the business end of the construction business while my grandfather was out building houses. She was the de facto manager of the operations though technically her title was book keeper. She was the one who clients dealt with directly most of the time and she did the hiring. My grandfather wasn't good with money or running a business but was good at building things.

[razelove]

@Leavesbound Look at the dates, I think they had access to modern technology man.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

@Leavesbound I loved reading that story about your family. They are really an inspiration 😊

[Steinkopf]

@Leavesbound Sure. Whenever a study doesn't prove your own ideology it must be wrong... Just face it and move on.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Couldn't that be reversed as well? If they are out of date do you have anything more modern?

[Steinkopf]

2004, 2009, 2011, 2015, 2017, 2018. That's as modern as it gets when it comes to these studies. There is no reason to believe that anything changed or will change.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

So I was curious about this and it appears the dissatisfaction could be driven by inequalities within the same roles.

equityhealthj.biomedcentral.com/.../1475-9276-12-57

[Steinkopf]

If you read through my studies you will see that work has a better impact on men than in women and women tend to find housework less repulsive than men. There is a lot in these studies. Also women themself say it's fair when they do 66% of the housework. It will negatively impact a woman if she has to do literally everything but I think they are leaaving out anything biology related.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Fair at 66 because the number has always been unequal i would imagine. Any progress is progress. Eventually one day that number will get to 50/50

[Steinkopf]

I don't think things will get better when both genders do the same. Generally speaking.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Why would they not get better if people were equal?

[Steinkopf]

Because we are different. Didn't you read the studies? Different biology different priorities.

[MzAsh]

Housework, cooking, and child care are not gendered. These are adult tasks. Both men and women should be doing them. Most of the men on here should know as most are single. And I highly doubt many can afford maids and nannies. Unless they still live with their parents or live in filth.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

@MzAsh This. So much all of this. I have seen so many answers about how women are better at it and it is in their nature. Pretty sure nowhere in my biology does it have a "loves to scrub a toilet" gene. I can't imagine anyone who loves to do chores around the house like that, but it needs to be done. A lot of these answers who are in favor of gendered roles read as "yeah... I dont want to have to do the work if I already have someone doing it."

[Steinkopf]

@MzAsh So no one here actually read the studies? It's delusional to think that both genders are the same despite clear evolutionary differences in tasks that had to be done.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

The nice thing about evolution is that it evolves. If your suggestion is that we now remain pat and not progress further then that just means we have all reached the pinnacle of humanity and I'm sorry but we are nowhere close to that.

[Steinkopf]

You clearly have an agenda you try to justify here with no proof. Evolution doesn't work that way. For humans it has stopped altogether for the most part.

[MzAsh]

I don’t think anyone is trying to say men and women are the same. Of course we have differences that should be celebrated. But does that mean I am best staying at home cooking and cleaning all day because I have a vagina? No.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

What? Evolution absolutely works that way and we are clearly still evolving. We are living longer thanks to modern medicine, but the trade off is that we are also being affected by the use and disposal of medication that is changing us in all kinds of different ways. We are evolving because of environmental changes too. Evolution is slow but constantly occuring.

[Steinkopf]

@MzAsh Here is a quote from one of my studies:
"Figure 6 shows interesting patterns. Being a housewife, provided one has a husband/spouse, is the best a woman can do for her happiness."
Also:
"As shown in the first panel in Fig. 7, men are happier to work longer hours and
women are happier to work shorter hours, controlling for other predictors of SWB."
Yes you are better in different things because you have a vagina. This feminist brainwashing needs to stop.

[Steinkopf]

You want to change millions of years of evolution with a couple decades of feminism. Come on. If you take any change as evolution then sure we are evolving. We have non-existent natural selection now which is what I am refering to.

[MzAsh]

Regardless of what it says, women have the authority to speak for themselves. If a woman has put in the soul searching knows for sure she’s happier being a homemaking housewife then that’s great. Some of us other women, myself included, have put in the soul searching to know that we are NOT happier being homemaking housewives. Tried it. Not for me.

[Steinkopf]

@MzAsh I won't argue it's 100% for everyone. The sentiment that women should be equally in the workforce actively hurts happiness and life satisfaction in women. There is no denying that.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

The fact that people use feminist as a derogatory term just helps me realize even more that it is working and that terrifies some people.

A couple decades of feminism has brought us the right to even vote, better equality in the workplace (although it is nowhere near perfect), the ability to serve in the military and defend our country in the same way men can, as well as a whole litany of other things we couldn't do before.

A couple of decades did that by the sheer willpower of women standing up and saying "no more". Thank you to all those who have supported those women along the way and continue to do so now.

[Steinkopf]

here's the summary of the studies:
"In summary, the data that we have reviewed shows that across a variety of domains and in a variety of different ways feminism and women’s rights is associated with a lower quality of life for women. On a global scale we observe that greater women’s rights is associated with lower relative female life satisfaction and that the relationships hold true within countries such as the case with Switzerland and over time such as in the United States or Europe. We also see that gender role egalitarianism has a clear negative effect on marital satisfaction. The question of marital stability and relative earnings has received highly contradictory results although most studies find that higher female earnings is associated with lower marital stability. "

Keep throwing rocks in your own way.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Thanks, we will and as the last couple decades have shown, one day we will succeed fully.

Marriage is not the end all be all of a woman's life. Maybe, just maybe, marital dissatisfaction stems from the exact thing I am talking about here. We have found that while our views have changed and we have entered the workplace more often to supply for our families, the same cannot be said for the males doing more at home to support her from their end. I'd be pretty upset too if I were in that situation.

[Steinkopf]

Okay you didn't read the studies - at all. This is propaganda at this point and as I said earlier - your mistakes, not mine.

[MzAsh]

What we really need to quit is the notion that anyone else other than women themselves knows what’s best for them. Their happiness should be #1 to them.

[Steinkopf]

@MzAsh That's basically what I am advocating for. However, stastically speaking and also from what we can see here in the comment section, women themself don't know it since every outlet tells them to become politicians, managers etc. which seems to hurt women overall.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Exactly. For some women they are absolutely happy falling into gendered roles and that is perfectly fine because they were given the option and they willingly chose it. My only concern has been when both are working equal hours, why is there still that expectation that a woman HAS to do home and childcare because "that's her role as a woman"

[Steinkopf]

We can agree that it's unfair when both work and she does all the homework too. That won't change that the traditional lifestyle was overall healthier for women than for men. I hope you can agree with this too.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Yay middle ground!

We do agree it is unfair in that case. From my end I will say that it is possible that women may have been happier in that lifestyle.

In most cases, work sucks whether it be at home or at a site. Both have advantages and disadvantages. I will also say from my end that equality means equal in both good and bad. I would never advocate for all the benefits without accepting the negative as well.

In the end, the only thing that I want to see is that women are given that choice as their own to make and not have it expected of them because of their gender.

[Leavesbound]

I lived during the 1960's and 1970's when most women were expected to become subservient housewives and I know first hand that most did NOT like that role including my mother, all my aunts, grandmothers and all the adult female neighbors we had. Most women were NOT happy with that situation. That is why there were as many feminist demonstrations as there were anti war demonstrations in those days. I remember when all the female teachers walked out of our school to protest the law that made it illegal for married women to be teachers. They repealed that law before the next election. Any study you are citing was faked or performed deliberately to provide the desired answer and therefore credible. The vast majority of women were NOT happy period. I know, I was there!

[Leavesbound]

You've not been around long enough to see what can and cannot change.

[Leavesbound]

Self serving studies conducted for the sole purpose of fulfilling an agenda are invalid.

[Leavesbound]

And therefore NOT credible <<<<< My typing skills not withstanding

[Steinkopf]

@Leavesbound Sure dude. Anecdotes > Studies. Clown world.

[bamesjond0069]

Because if your a well rounded attractive successful man with lots of dating options, it just doesn't make sense to be serious with modern women. I dont need your income, im not hiring you to do my accounting so i dont care about your degree, im older and more experienced (men usually date younger) so i dont need you to lead me or take the reigns in a relationship im more experienced. Im overall attractive to women so lots of girls would sleep with me so i dont need you for sex. It comes down to loyalty and pleasant obedient attitude helping me achieve my goals and make me happy doing it. Thats the one thing you really have to offer a man who has his life together.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Well, that's the only thing you want a woman to offer. It's not the only thing she could offer.

Assuming all of what you said is correct though, then I suppose in your case if you can find one to fill that role then ok. So... does that work the other way around? If a woman has all those things is she supposed to expect an obedient man?

[bamesjond0069]

Sure. But y'all women dont usually want obedient men. Would a woman in my position PREFER an 18 year old man with no job? Typically they dont. Thats the problem. Men will be like heck yeah! Lol

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I would imagine that no, realistically women wouldn't want obedient men just an equal partner who communicates well and splits work not expects it to be done by her because that's a "woman's job"

[bamesjond0069]

I dont particularly think women want an equal partner either. They say they do but in practice they tend to find men who exceed themselves and hold more traditional values most attractive. Why dont they look for a more equal to them man with modern views instead?

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Not sure that holds true in a lot of cases, but it is not impossible I guess. It could just be it's harder to find more modern men and it becomes a compromise on their behalf.

[razelove]

That's about the attitude I had towards dating. Ok, ok, that's nice, but what do you do that makes my life better? My wife is a solid partner, my life is better for her being in it. If I had kept running into the types of women I was running into before her, it would probably just be me playing the field with no kids and more money today.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

If she willingly wants to do it then it's absolutely fine. My question is aimed for those who work 40 hours like the husband but do not get the equal split at home.

[bamesjond0069]

Because no matter how much a woman works or not, her primary role is housekeeping wife duties. Work is the extra above and beyond. Not the house work.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Yikes. I feel bad for whoever you do end up with.

[bamesjond0069]

And yes. Are you not familiar with the "where have all the good men gone?" Or single cat lady jokes? Career women and equality women are disproportionately single. If they would date down ie less successful men, even just slightly, they could find a man. But they feel they earn 70k they want a man who earns 100k. They earn 100k they want a man who earns 200k. On the flip high earning men dont value modern ideals and the 70k man will date a part time waitress who makes 20k at a nice restaurant. And the 200k will date a girl who never had a job in her life and is an expert home maker. So where does that leave miss i make 100k and want a partner on my level? Which really means above my level? Well she posts online "where have all the good men gone?" Or "how many cats is too many?"

[bamesjond0069]

Why do you feel sorry for her? She was so happy the day she quit her job. Now the most stress she has to deal with is what dress to wear and if she remembered to put the laundry in the dryer. she's thrilled!

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Sounds pretty miserable to me. I'd like to contribute more in my life, but if she is happy then more power to her. 😊

[bamesjond0069]

She is. And she's also able to get a man like me. I get lots of MDs and phds and ceos and attorneys try to date me because im very successful but she has way more to offer me than any of them do... so...

[Ez-Bri-Z]

🙄

Ok. Well, congratulations on having the perfect life!

[bamesjond0069]

"I'd like to contribute more in my life..." thats the big mistake there. Unless you're Elon Musk or something, nobody is going to be remembered for their job. Even higher earners like me lets face it big whoop i have boring investments in boring companies that are managed at home in my underwear. Who going to remember me for that? Lmao. I do all that to support a family one day. The more kids you have the more exponential impact you have on the world period. Short of inventing something to save millions of people's lives... thats the biggest greater than yourself opportunity that exists. So women who have the amazing gift are so excited to throw it away for a mediocre career doing paperwork in HR or some other job like that usually nobody will ever care or remember you for and you can have your 0 to 2 kids and thats that. Women used to make a big difference and have more kids and feel very fulfilled by raising the future generations. Now y'all are exterminating future generations, population is literally dying off, so y'all can work. Whats so great about work? Its necessary but i can't figure out why women want to do something so stupid so badly. It literally sounds like you trying to tell me how great it is to eat turds. Why!!! Why do y'all want to eat turds so bad?

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I can't even take you seriously anymore with this line of thought and most likely lies about yourself.

[bamesjond0069]

What do you mean?

[FilmGuy93]

If I had to guess, I would think that happens because those men see similar dynamics happening naturally in the happiest and most cohesive marriages. The part they don't see is the very necessary underlying love and respect that exists between the husband and wife. The wife, or the feminine partner, whichever that happens to be, naturally wants to take care of their spouse and be nurturing.

Let me ask you this: as a 41 year old woman, what do you feel are adding or would add to a romantic relationship with a man?

[Ez-Bri-Z]

This isn't about being nurturing, this was about the expectation of some guys that it has to be the woman serving them at all times.

Also I add nothing to a relationship to a guy outside of a friendship. I am just curious in general of observations I have seen with my parents, my brothers and friends who are in hetero relationships.

[FilmGuy93]

No, no, I'm trying to explain men's perspective. This is how we look at things. I'm not saying that it's right, but it is how we see things.

The point I was trying to make is that the men who do feel this way are taking the idea of the feminine partner being nurturing out of context from the rest of the relationship. The men are saying "okay, I have my own money, I don't... really... need my girlfriend/wife to make much money, so I don't need or want a coworker. My parents have been married my whole life, and it's not like they are coworkers. It kind of seems like she takes good care of him. If I want my marriage to last, maybe that's what I should look for in a partner as well." But the men aren't making the connection that the reason the wife was being so nurturing is a result of the good marriage, not the other way around.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Ahh gotcha. Thank you for the clarification!

In some cases that does make some sense. There is sort of an equal exchange, but I suppose my question is geared along expectations that it has to be done that way. In my description I talk about an example with my parents where both were working, she was actually making more and always has, but he still expected her to take care of him at home too. I have seen other examples of it too and I was wondering why that mindset exists.

[FilmGuy93]

There is a definitely inequity there, but I think this comes back to the idea that men aren't looking at women as providers. We don't want coworkers or colleagues. So it's wonderful that she has a great career, and it's wonderful that she's making a bunch of money, and it's wonderful that she has this sense of purpose, but men just don't look at women that way. What is more money to someone who makes enough money, you know? But you also have to balance that with responsibility around the house by saying "what can I do make my partner's life easier?" And that's where your father's lack of helping around the house isn't cool.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

That's unfortunate and I hope it isn't a global feeling. I always want my children to know their self worth and, in my daughter's case, to know she has the right to choose how she wants her marriage to work in tandem with whomever she marries. I would hope that if she does marry a man (and all indications so far point to her liking boys) that she finds someone who wants an equal partner in both as a breadwinner and as a responsible party in home care.

[GrimmGothBabe]

Honestly it doesn't make sense matriarchs we're a common thing in tribes before patriarchs were the common thing but nowadays its like there was never a matriarch in history and a woman in charge is an affront to all life. -_-

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Scary women in charge are scary. *spooky fingers*

Seriously though, it doesn't make a guy any weaker by just following a woman. If anything it makes him stronger to stand against the stereotype.

[GrimmGothBabe]

Agreed.

[Madhatter920]

I think what it boils down to is that it benefits them and makes life a little bit easier for them. Like the rich fight to stay rich, this is the same thing. If you have an advantage, you want to keep your advantage.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Makes sense though I wonder how much longer this will be a thing. I mean, I know there will be those guys who just hate women for not just being subservient to them at all times and a body for them to use at will. I just hope at some point the women who are part of this cycle realize their self worth and avoid getting into those kinds of relationships. They are all so much better than that.

Side note: This is not to include the ones who do it with consent. I see you girl and you go get your kink on 😉

[Leavesbound]

I gave that notion up at age 19 when a nice 43 year old dominant woman informed me that I was her boyfriend, proceeded to put a collar around my neck and led me to her bedroom. Best year of my life.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Lmao true or not that made me smile

[ohshee]

Because men are selfish a lazy and they can't do a woman's job they're Xscape out of the house is a 8 to 5 job and that's the way they want to keep it anything else is too much for them to handle

[Ez-Bri-Z]

That is an answer most of us think holds true, but I'd hope it would be more than just that. I dont think its fair for a woman to be expected to do a lot of the work at home with minimum contributions from the males when they both work equal hours in the work force.

[ohshee]

I look at it like this I was a single parent and it was hard it was tough it was rough it was crazy if I work from 8 to 5 that means I work 8 to 12 when I get home and that if I see something that needs to be done I do it there is no job or task it is appointed to anybody in any relationship I don't think it's a part of being a team I have friends that have girlfriends if we're having a barbecue or something like that they'll sit on their butts ask their girlfriend to get him a beer make their play for them and they do it I look at the girl and say to myself w TF make him get up and get it himself but there are some couples that like doing that I guess so I can't say it's wrong for them to I know it's wrong for me

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I remember the first time my brothers brought home their future wives and my dad made them fetch things for him too. The first time my wife got asked, she lifted an eyebrow and said "are your legs broke?" I knew she was the one lol

[Anonymous]

From a practicality view, it works better. Division of labor is an efficient mode of any society, and of any family. You view it as women being expected to serve men, which is 50% true. What you don't realize is that by the woman serving the man, the man can better serve the woman and the family.

With that said, if the woman serves the man and the man doesn't use that as a means to get more done himself, then he doesn't deserve it and she needs to move on. On that same token, if a woman demands that the man contribute to 50% of the housework, and doesn't use that as a means to get more done, she doesn't deserve a good man any more than a lazy man deserves a good woman.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

And my counter is, if both of them are working the same number of hours each week at a job, then it should not be expected for a woman to do house and child care specifically just because she is a woman.

[Opinion Owner]

Hey, I'll happily take care of my child and clean the kitchen and dining room while cooking dinner while she battles the heat and mosquitoes to cut the grass and trim the hedges, or clean the pool and keep the chemicals right, or power wash the house... You ladies complain about being expected to do certain things just because you're women, but you don't seem to understand all the things that are expected of men. You really don't want to split all the household chores in half... you want to split YOUR half in half and share it without doing any of the "man's work". My ex wife was that way until she took me up on the offer one day. I cooked, looked after the kids, did a load of laundry, and hand-washed the dishes while she cut the grass. Well, half of it, anyway. She came in looking like she was about to die.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

And growing up my dad didn't care. I was expected to go out and cut grass the same as my brothers. I actually preferred doing that over cleaning a bathroom any day.

He made my brothers pregnant wife cut the grass because they were living there at the time.

Please don't lump sum all of us into one category of being these delicate little flowers who can't do manual labor. It's insulting.

[Opinion Owner]

Most women can. But most women won't. Most women will happily sit on their asses while the man does everything and feel no guilt about it whatsoever. I've actually used that as a shit-test and dumped several women for it. "Hey, I'm gonna cook dinner tonight. You just sit back and relax." If she actually goes and sits down and let's me do all the work, I give her the "this isn't working out" speech, and it's over. I have better things to accomplish than catering to someone who won't match my effort

[Ez-Bri-Z]

That's such a broad generalization and also that is a horrible way to approach relationships. Very passive aggressive and manipulative.

[Opinion Owner]

I really don't care who considers it a negative thing. I'm not about having to fuss and fight to get a woman to act right in a 50/50 relationship, so either she acts right on her own, or I'm out. If her mama didn't raise her right, she's a lost cause

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Ok, well.. good luck with that.

[Opinion Owner]

I have had good luck with it. I've weeded out a lot of women who would've been constant sources of stress.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Okies. Well, have a great day and thank you for responding to the post.

[weysally]

yes a give and take, but I'm as independent as any one, but I do like to be by men who want to be a gentleman, in fact I like being pampered

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Who wouldn't like to be taken care of from time to time? I guess I mean to phrase this as more of an expectation on his part. For example my dad was the type who expected my mom to have dinner ready for him as soon as he got home. She was expected to get up and take care of us after working an overnight shift if the bare minimum of parenting didn't work. He wouldn't bother to get up to get what he needed. She was expected to get up and get it until the kids were old enough to also help do it.

[weysally]

yes I understand but aren't you classing males altogether by what you wrote "why do guys" not some guys

[Ez-Bri-Z]

There is also a whole description beneath that saying I know its not all guys.

[weysally]

OK I missed that sorry

[Ez-Bri-Z]

No worries 😊