Do the Anglo-Saxons consider France as "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys " only because of the Second World War?

[Julie4]

[nightdrot]

This is probably the most personal answer I've ever written on this site. No. Most Americans don't think about other countries one way or another unless the country is in the news for some reason. (See also Russia and China at the moment.) It just is not that big a preoccupation.

There is no doubt that France's defeat in World War II has made an impact. However, that impact only really comes to the fore when France does something that annoys Americans.

See also, for example, when President DeGualle ordered all American bases off of French soil. That did not help. Frankly, DeGualle had realpolitik reasons for what he did, but again, Americans tend not to follow these things with any depth. So it was seen as ungrateful and prompted the Secretary of State at the time to ask, rhetorically, if DeGualle would order the exhumation of the bodies of American soldiers in French military cemeteries.

However, 99% of the time, when Americans think about France, they think of it as a place that they want to visit some day. (Personal aside: I have a young friend - in her early 20s - who when she found out that I had visited France, immediately asked to see my photos from the trip. She would LOVE to go to France.)

Unfairly, it is probably safe to say that in the USA the French - or at least Parisians - have a reputation for rudeness. Stories of the waiter who refused to attempt to communicate or smile or suchlike. Yet, even there, from my own personal experience, I had one waiter who was kind and helpful as can be. Such that it stuck in my memory to this day.

In the case of rudeness, it is probably a case of one bad apple spoiling it for the bunch. Most Americans have not been to France and when they hear a story about a rude Frenchman, it just becomes a stereotype. Truth being that in every country there are people both rude and pleasant, but when one sticks out in your mind, that tends to become the norm.

Bottom line, long way around, anyone who knows the history does not think of the French as "cheese eating surrender monkeys" - a line from comedic cartoon, "The Simpsons" by the way, where the dad, Homer, is about as boorish as they get. See? Stereotypes can be funny.

To be sure, French tiffs with the USA tend to be popularly - not by the professional policymakers and diplomats - treated as a reflection of France's defeat and a reminder of America's role in France's liberation in 1944. Yet that is no deeper than the equal stereotype of the autocratic and intolerant Germans.

To the extent that the stereotype is real, it is more felt than thought. Like all feelings, it tends to pass in the next minute.

[Julie4]

well I must say that I understand the impression that American tourists have on the fact that they have the impression that the French are not very smiling and open, even the traders.

I haven't had the chance to go to the USA, however I know friends who have been there. They told me that Americans were really very welcoming people. he told me this anecdote when they were at the restaurant, by the time the dish was served they chatted with the people at the table next door. or when they entered a trade the seller really tried to help them find what he was looking for. In France these two anecdotes that happened in the USA are very rare in France.

This behavior is not against tourists since it happens exactly like that between French people. Tourists take this for arrogance but it is not. I would put that in terms of cultural difference.

In France we have a rather disastrous "commercial culture". When you enter a store you will often get a fairly "cold" welcome from the seller and a "hello" and " goodbye" try as service Minimum.

For the rest do not hope to have much more help from the seller. you know the phrase "the customer is king" Let's say that in France our sales departments did not quite understand this phrase lol.

For the rest, the French always try to keep a certain distance with people they don't know. Faced with a person we do not know, the French will tend to have a minimum of respect and courtesy but they put limits and a barrier to keep a certain distance.

But of course, despite all this, the French can generally be seen as pleasant and quite welcoming people.

But I understand the impression of American tourists who are used to being generally welcoming, smiling, etc.

[nightdrot]

You nailed the reason right here: "I would put that in terms of cultural difference." That what explains most of it.

Yet, even then, as I believe I mentioned, my experience with one waiter in a restaurant in Paris with nothing but cordial and friendly. So, bottom line, for every rule there is an exception. "Culture" explains much - but not everything.

[Texaskid1]

They did alright in WWI but my understanding is that there was a lot of political infighting at the top levels in WWII and the people that wanted to surrender to the Germans had their way... there was some resistance by the French but a the end of the day a solider must obey orders. If he is ordered to not fight then he must not fight.

At the same time the French did have the underground resistance which provided the allies with invaluable intelligence on German movements in France and many French men and women were captured and executed by the Germans.

Also the French took a stab at conquering Europe and even invading Russia - no small feat might I add. Furthermore they did conquer a good portion of Africa and the Americas ( there are over 100 million French speakers in the world).

Also, my understanding is that French Foreign legion is tough as nails. The training is harsh and grueling.. I recall seeing one video where some ex-US Marine Core drill sergeant said that they one of the few fighting forces that could be on the same level or even more that the USMC.

The French are not wussies - but they have a culture that appreciates the finer things and respects the intellect - which , sadly , is something we don't see in the US ; here we look down on brains and call the nerds "faggots' . Our culture places the felon football jock on a pedastool while looking down on anything "brainy" On an intellectual level the Average French politician would whoop an US Congressmen in 5 minutes flat. I think that this disdain we have in the US is a holdover from the British colony days - most Americans seem to not have the slightest notion that it was the French who sent their generals to train our Continental Army so we could fight against the Brits , it was the French who sent their Navy to help us keep the Brits at bay.

My 2 cents.

[purplepoppy]

Wasn't that an American term coined by the Simpsons?

[Julie4]

Maybe lol

[Hellodownthere]

French soldiers were tough. It had nothing to do with courage or bravery or willingness to die. Because of political indifference and apathy they weren't properly equipped to take on a juggernaut like the Wehrmacht, even though they were of superior numbers. They also weren't encouraged to take the initiative and hit first like the German army did. I believe the French army was mismanaged, which is not the fault of soldiers. It was also mismanaged in the Soviet Union but because of their vast territory and almost unlimited manpower and resources, they were able to turn the tide. France didn't have that failsafe.

[Andres77]

I saw the interview where the guy said that live. I busted a gut laughing. Then I served with some French in Afghanistan. Then some came here and worked with one of our units. Your military is not an accurate cross sectional representation of the whole country. But of those I've worked with I've been impressed.
The older I get the less people I agree with anyways so... my judgement needs to be tempered some.
At this point all I can say is that I don't agree with the general politics of the country but that's also accurate for Germany and Sweden and the UK and my own country so... judging many by disagreeing with a few isn't fair.
I'm working on it.

[ManofHistory]

Mainly, ya.
Other events, like Vietnam, reinforce that idea, but I think most of the conflict that Anglo-Saxons feel towards France comes from one specific event, operation Torch. Basically, UK shot French ship because of Vichy France then the French in Algeria shot at and resisted an American landing for a short period.

[Julie4]

it's a bit sad to sum up 15 centuries of a nation's history, to these unique events

[ManofHistory]

I agree, it sucks.
France, for a long time, was the biggest baddest country in Europe, if not the entire world.

[Anonymous]

I take the long view on any assessment of a nation’s military prestige. It’s just that the French have had a bad run, really ever since Napoleon.

They lost the Franco-Prussian War. Didn’t do that great in WW1. Even worse in WW2 as they became occupied and lived under a puppet government set up by the Nazis. They later ended up losing two of their colonial
possessions (French Indochina & Algeria) and then. So they’ve kind of been on a bad run.

It happens. I mean they also had Charlemagne, William the Conqueror, and the Gauls were a thorn in the side of the Ancient Romans. It’s all relative.

[RyanEC]

I hate to see my fellow Anglo Saxon and fellow Americans making fun of France and the French.
I consider France a brother/sister nation worthy of respect.

[Julie4]

Thank you very much my friend. is good there are people who say that for fun and it can make me laugh too but there are people who are really serious about it and I find it sad

[RyanEC]

🇺🇸🤝🇫🇷
I think we should remember and respect our leaders of the past who fought against the other side like Henry V and Joan of Arc respectively, but we shouldn’t let those feelings of the past bleed into today.

I think if we are just poking fun in minor differences that’s okay.
For example I don’t really understand why Frog legs are a delicacy in France so I don’t think I would ever try it.
Im sure France people make fun of Americans in a few ways.

[Julie4]

Exactly, when it's just humor no problem for me, I can laugh at jokes about France. But sometimes it's just nastiness.

Of course the French also make fun of the English or the Americans, and unfortunately there are also idiots in France who have stupid things to say about the Americans and the English

[BCA6010]

If anyone is using that exact phrase, it's because they got it off the Simpsons.

France has generally not had a favorable reputation with NATO especially in the 90s and early 2000s, but the reality is that France has actually been pretty active, just mainly in Africa where the US rarely gets involved, and so it's rarely spoken of. Their military power and capabilities are pretty close to that of the UK.

[NamerOfStars]

No, it's primarily because they don't consider anything before 792 as "France", and see William as Norman, rather than French.

Which is a pity, given that they're Saxons, as "cheese-eating conquest monkeys" sounds a LOT cooler- at least in English. Not sure how to say it in French.

[RealMarek]

The only people who think this way are people who don’t know much history. Unfortunately most Americans are completely uneducated in history. They get a cartoon version of WWII and the Civil War, and the rest these days focuses on unjust historical treatment of minorities and current affairs.

[exitseven]

My father was a WW2 vet and was a POW in Germany. He used to say the FRench were the best ally that Hitler ever had. I never heard him say disparaging things about any other group.

[slatyb]

Remember that the British under Chamberlain were reluctant to act as Germany annexed Austria and part of whatever the Czech republic was called then.

[msc545]

No, it has more to do with their refusal to support Bush in his illegal war in Iraq. Start a war with the French, who were in wars for over 1000 years, and you will find out how easily they don't surrender.

[SeekingVirginWife]

France is a Jewish Country, they always surrender and make everyone fight for themselves just like in Ukraine.

[Guanfei]

It's an insult invented after France refused to follow the US in Irak. It's pretty recent.

[anylolone]

Nope. Probably more to do with their history together.

[WhiteBoyChill]

At this point the British are just salty because they’ve become irrelevant

[OddBeMe]

That was a bad time to turn tail. I mean, shit.

[Guardian45]

Europeans love to bicker and call each other names