Why do Left Loonies say the Constitution stipulates "The Separation of Church and State? Where does the Constitution state that?

[BillyBalls]

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

[WindAtMyBack]

This is a common misunderstanding. The Constitution does not say anything about separation of church and state. I think that came from the text of a court ruling. It's been repeated ever since then.

I do agree with separation of church and state though. I don't think that's a bad interpretation of the Constitution. The problem is that it gets misused. Too many people think freedom of religion means freedom from religion - like they can't even be exposed to it.

[BillyBalls]

Exactly..."Freedom of. Not Freedom from"

[Soteris]

Actually you are wrong. The first amendment clearly spells out that the government should, and I quote, "make no law respecting an establishment of religion". This, along with written accounts we have of the founding fathers as well as specifically the people who wrote the first amendment includes the mention of "separation between Church & State" and freedom FROM religion.

Jefferson wrote,
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."

This all also means that its against the constitution for the government to expose religion to atheists.

[WindAtMyBack]

@Soteris

There is nothing you said or quoted that contradicts what I said. How you manage to read into it that atheists can't be exposed to religion by the government or anyone else is beyond me.

[BillyBalls]

@Soteris "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Notice the amendment states the government "Cannot pass a law prohibiting the free exercise of religion".

In the case of the Football Coach being penalized for praying in public, the school system tried to prohibit his right to exercise his right to practice his religion.

[Soteris]

The constitution only protects people from the government, its not about protection from other people or organizations. That is why private companies can infringe on your "freedom of speech" as well as freedom from religion, AKA slap a cross on a church in public view.

What it does mean however is that the government can't officially promote religion, period. This also extends to people and organizations directly linked to the government such as employees of public schools. While you are working in connection to the government such as being a coach in a public school these restrictions applies to you as well which means that for the same reasons its against the constitution to slap a cross on the white house you are also not really allowed to be seen praying as they are the same type of government display of religion.

Also I am not contractually obliged to quote everything. I expect you to either take my word for it, disprove me directly or dare challenge me on something I can easily google and rub in your face.

But since you mentioned it. Thomas Jefferson did have a few quotes:
“We, the General Assembly of Virginia, do enact that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, or shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions of belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capabilities.”

“It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God.”

[BillyBalls]

@Soteris So in the case of the football coach saying a quick prayer, who was forced by the government to partake in a religious expression?

[Soteris]

In the coach example the coach is but an extension of the government and a religious expression by him is functionally the same as a religious expression by any other part of the government.. like the president.. or again, slapping a Christian cross on the white house.. or any other example you might want to think of.

It might be on the more extreme edge of the example but if separation of church and state is to be maintained it must be strictly enforced even here.

[WindAtMyBack]

@Soteris

You might want it to be that way, but you have nothing to back it up.

[Soteris]

But I did just back it up. Strange how that works.

[WindAtMyBack]

@Soteris

It's even more strange how that is not how they actually did it at the time. Strange how the people who wrote the Constitution and wrote the Bill of Rights didn't do it the way you think it should be. Apparently they didn't know their own minds.

It seems to me that if they intended it to be like you want, they would have actually done it that way. It seems like there would be a historical record of "freedom from religion" at the time of the people who best knew what they meant.

[Soteris]

Funny that, when you have Thomas Jefferson writing the "Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom" which contains "Be it enacted by General Assembly that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever," and predates the constitution. Also "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" means freedom FROM religion AKA separation of church and state AKA both a quote from the constitution and part of quotes I have already typed further underlying the separation of church and state AKA learn to fucking read.

[WindAtMyBack]

@Soteris

Dude, give it up. you STILL have not posted a single thing to justify your stance. Since when does "exposure to" mean "compelled"? They are two entirely different things.

You ignored my last post. If they meant what you are saying then why did they not do it that way? The proof is in what they actually did, and they did NOT do it the way you wanted them to. They exposed people to religion all the time. They even supported churches, because even that is not compelling people. The official oath of office for most government offices at both the federal and state level contained the words "so help me god" at the end of the oath.

George Washington took his oath of office with his hand on a Bible - out in public for everyone to see. John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and James Monroe (who wrote the 1st Amendment), all did the same thing. Why would they do exactly what you claim they said they were not allowed to do?

It's all over the place but for some reason you refuse to admit that they did NOT mean it the way you want them to mean it.

[Soteris]

Do I need to repeat myself? "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" Means freedom FROM religion.

If you are not respecting a religious establishment, you are not respecting religion PERIOD. Also, the founding fathers were really bad at following their own proclamations. Case in point: "all men are created equal" followed by 200+ years of slavery.

Its also telling that the only oath actually written out in the constitution is as follows:
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

You may take notice of the lack of any religious message within it, and again, this is the ONLY oath officially included in the constitution itself.

[WindAtMyBack]

@Soteris

Stop posting you fucking moron! It's been a hell of a long time since I've run into someone so fucking stubborn. You have nothing so just stop.

As a matter of fact I'm not going to allow you to post any more. Not because I don't agree with you but because you keep posting the same bullshit over and over and haven't even answered my question because you don't have an answer.

[OlderAndWiser]

The First Amendment is interpreted to mean that no law can show favoritism to any religious institution because of its particular beliefs. That concept gets oversimplified by those whose brains are simple.

[Anonymous]

you just answered your own question in the first line. 🙄
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

[BillyBalls]

It reads also read : "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"!!!

What don't you comprehend about that?

Nowhere does the Constitution dictate the separation of Church and State.

[Opinion Owner]

Your question was not about the free exercise of religion, it was about separation of church and state, which is addressed in the first clause of the first sentence.

How is this Clause that difficult to wrap your head around? Congress shall not make any laws establishing a religion.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

[BillyBalls]

Prohibiting a "state religion" is not the same as "separation of church and state".

Notre Dame University is run by a Catholic order of priests (Holy Cross). Should the Notre Dame School of Medicine not get federal funds for research?