Do you believe abortion should be celebrated as a right, and an act of love?

[SolitarySolace]

“Long gone are the days when “safe, legal, and rare” was a talking point of the left. Now, abortion is considered a right, an “act of love” and and form of healthcare. Abortion should be celebrated and it’s stigma removed. - www.msn.com/.../ar-AA13dv9C?ocid=sapphireappshare

Yes, abortion should be celebrated! Kill all the babies!

No! Abortion should not be celebrated! It should be rare if not completely illegal!

[Minxxie]

Abortion is a very natural thing that has been common for all of human history. Women have used herbal medicines to induce a miscarriage if they felt unsafe. So it definitely can be an act of love because women have an innate knowing as to whether their situation is safe and nurturing enough to bring a child into.

My mom had an early-term abortion 10 years before I was born because her husband had become abusive. It isn't uncommon for men to switch up and almost become jealous of the coming baby when a woman becomes pregnant, even if he begged to have a child. If you look up the top cause of death for pregnant women... It's murder. source

On top of that, no child deserves to have a violently abusive father so the zygote my mom had never turned into a fetus and that fetus never turned into a baby. She got out of that marriage and waited a decade until she found a man who would be a good father, and then she had me! Her abusive ex never did have kids and I grew up with a dad who adores me.

The real toxic force in this whole abortion debate is the Fundamentalist Christian church trying to exert control over everyone, even though most people in North America are no longer Christian. They see the lower church attendance rates and they are terrified of losing power. Abortions were common during biblical times and the abortion debate was fabricated, even other Christian denominations know this. source

Anti-choice as a movement did not start until the 1970's as a scheme to increase the population of white people and outbreed everyone else by forcing white women and girls to go through with unwanted or even deadly pregnancies. In reality, the bible says nothing against abortions and biblical law actually states that a pregnant woman's life is worth more than the fetus inside of her. Abortions were a common practice in biblical times and most Christians believed that the soul entered the body at "first breath". source So the abortion debate really wasn't a thing back then, it was just a normal and accepted part of life.

The main effect of Roe V Wade was a 20% drop in crime in the 15-20 years following the legalization of abortion. This is because fewer women in poverty and in unstable homes were forced to carry unwanted pregnancies to term, which meant fewer children in poverty and produce fewer young adults who were forced to survive by leading a life of crime source

So only women and girls are paying for the fall of Roe right now (and I guess their male loved ones when they die of pregnancy complications) but EVERYONE will be paying for it in about 15 years.

I'm very happy to not be American!

[SolitarySolace]

So basically men bad but women aren’t so abortion is justified?

[Minxxie]

Nope, women's bodies belong to themselves it has nothing to do with men.
I used the example of an abusive man because that's what happened to my mom.

[SolitarySolace]

Ok, but I believe that a woman’s body is no longer just hers in the act of consensual sex. Same with a man’s body. But women are too selfish to understand that so whatever

[Minxxie]

Consenting to sex and consenting to pregnancy are two entirely separate things. The moment a man can carry and deliver a baby is the moment he can have a say. It's not even uncommon for women's teeth to fall out during pregnancy, it's not this easy risk-free thing men like you think it is. Also, saying women are selfish as an absolute is illogical, women do not share a single brain. You know who is selfish though? The men who think they have a right to use a woman's body to build and deliver his spawn when he endures none of the risks or suffering. I really wish women would stop giving men like you a chance to touch them ever.

[musicbrain5]

Who says it’s an “act of love”? What the hell? Abortion isn’t something to be celebrated.

[SolitarySolace]

Abortion activists, leftists, democrats, majority of so called liberals. They’d celebrate it like they did when Obama became president

[MCheetah]

Both poll options on here are extreme and very stupid, so I agree with neither one. I t isn't up to you or anyone else to tell anyone who is allowed to be a parent or not, but abortion shouldn't be celebrated like it's some kind of positive or good thing, either. But being in the middle would require nuance, and most people nowadays are too braindead and retarded or nuance. It's either one dumbass extreme or the other.

[Titanic1912]

Abortion should never be celebrated! Why would you celebrate the murder of an unborn baby? Abortion is murder and murder is against God’s commandments.

[letuswaltzforthedead]

To some degree, yes. At the same time, I think parenthood should be celebrated the most, above anything else, since it is quite literally the most important job. There's too much shaming around abortion, just let the women be.

[Sargentcaptain]

Pro abortion lunatics did more to sway me to the right on the issue than pro lifers ever did.

[A_Bell]

Abortion is the perfect way to drive progressives to voluntary extinction. I say hand out subsidies and pay bonuses.

[pewter_moon]

Educate yourself further. You clearly need it.

[Cubus]

Killing someone cannot be "an act of love".

[SaoirseS]

What I believe is you clearly don’t grasp the abortion issue and need to stop trolling it.

[Amarah0]

It's healthcare but not an act of love. That's just weird. Certain people take some things too far

[Cubus]

Unless the pregnancy is a risk to mother's life, it's not a healthcare.

[Amarah0]

@Cubus it's a medical procedure. Therefore healthcare.

[Cubus]

Nope. Healthcare is meant to prolong someone's life, not end it.

[Amarah0]

@Cubus nope the very definition is "the organized provision of medical care to individuals or a community."

[Cubus]

Fun fact because the other definition is "all measures aimed at preventing and treating diseases". And pregnancy is not a disease.

[Amarah0]

@Cubus so health care is improving a person's health and subsequently their life correct?

[Cubus]

Not if you kill someone.

[Amarah0]

@Cubus the argument of when life begins is philosophical. It's up to the individuals interpretation as is and should be the decision of abortion.

Let me ask you something though. Would you be willing to have a parasite put into your body? One which will make you have high blood pressure, high glucose levels, or even severe internal bleeding (all of which respectively can lead to heart disease, Alzheimer's, diabetes, preeclampsia, and death) just because I a stranger on the internet said it's wrong if you don't want to, and it's wrong if you get rid of it?

You're telling me your opinion. But your opinion is your own, your opinion cannot be and should not be forced upon others. You don't agree with abortions? Don't get one. But let everyone else make their own life choices, decide what they are willing to risk.

[Cubus]

It's not philosophical. Fertilised egg already has a different DNA from its mother. It is a separate life form

[Amarah0]

@Cubus the philosophical question is when life begins.

If you think it begins at fertilization then that's your right and your opinion but it's not mine.

[Amarah0]

To be a separate life form you need to not be reliant on someone else to give you life.

[Cubus]

I don't see a reason why not to agree withthe fact that life begins at fertilisation. That's what science says

[Amarah0]

@Cubus science says many different things because there is no way of knowing as it is philosophical.

[Cubus]

Nope. Science is like math. 2+2 would always give you 4. IT can't "say many different things"

[Amarah0]

@Cubus that's incredibly incorrect. Scientific answers can vary based on many things. Give 100 scientists the same data and they can reach different outcomes based on how they chose to analyze it.

Infact there is a reproducibility crisis because more than 2/3rds of researchers can't reproduce a scientists experiments.

Answers especially change when new information is discovered which is a constant thing.

[Cubus]

They can reach different outcome based on how they choose to analyze it. but the truth is still one.

Doesn't matter if you choose to analyse average salary based on yearly salary or on a monthly salary - you would still get correct results. Just for different circumstances

[Amarah0]

@Cubus that's math not science they are different which is my point.

Anyway this argument was about abortions being health care which they are. Health care is still healthcare when it's assisted suicide, when it's pulling the plug, when it's giving someone ungodly amounts of pain relief so they can pass peacefully, hospice care is a type of health care no?

[Cubus]

Well, medical textbooks and scientific reference works consistently agree that humans life begin at conception

[Amarah0]

@Cubus but life doesn't always happen after conception. Infact 1/3 to 1/2 fertilized eggs do not become a pregnancy and end up going out with the persons period, and that's not considered a miscarriage.

[Cubus]

It is in fact miscarriage. Definition of miscarriage is "expulsion of fertilised egg before the 22th week of pregnancy".

[Amarah0]

@Cubus yep. "Of pregnancy" a person is not considered pregnant until the egg has implanted. 1/3 to 1/2 of fertilized eggs do not implant.

[Cubus]

It is

[Cubus]

That's what definition says

[Amarah0]

@Cubus like I just said a person is not considered pregnant until the fertilized egg has implanted. A miscarriage can only occur after implantation.

[Cubus]

Nope. The definition of miscarriage says that it is "expulsion of fertilised egg before the 22th week of pregnancy"." So it doesn;t require implantation

[Amarah0]

@Cubus pregnancy requires implantation.

[Cubus]

It doesn;t

[Amarah0]

@Cubus "Pregnancy officially starts when a fertilized egg implants in the lining of the uterus."

[Amarah0]

You're seriously here trying to argue when life begins and the morality of abortions but you don't even know how pregnancy works?

[Cubus]

I'm telking you what official source says.

[Amarah0]

@Cubus I'm not saying your source is wrong. It is correct but Its not what I'm talking about.

What I am talking about is not considered a miscarriage as the egg never implanted. In order to be considered pregnant an egg has to implant into the uterus. Not all fertilized eggs implant.

[Cubus]

Nope.

"Miscarriage, also known in medical terms as a spontaneous abortion and pregnancy loss, is the death of an embryo or fetus before it is able to survive independently"

Embryo is used for human beings that also did not implanted in the wall of the womb yet. So you're not right

[Amarah0]

@Cubus No the embryonic stage lasts for 8 weeks AFTER IMPLANTATION.

[Amarah0]

Before that it's called germinal

[Cubus]

"Embryo - young animal or plant in the very early stages of development before birth, or before coming out of its egg or seed, especially a human egg in the first eight weeks after fertilisation"

That's what Oxford Dictionary says

[Amarah0]

The earliest miscarriage you can possibly have is called a chemical pregnancy where the embryo which happens shortly after implantation within 5 weeks.

[Cubus]

Germinal according to definition means " 1. of, relating to, or like germs or a germ cell
2. of, or in the earliest stage of development; embryonic"

"Germinal" and "embryonic" are synonymous, according to dictionary. So you're wrong.

[Amarah0]

@Cubus "The germinal stage of pregnancy starts at the time of conception, when the sperm and the egg combine to form a zygote. During the germinal stage, the zygote begins to divide in order to implant into the uterine wall. Once implantation is complete, the embryonic stage begins."

[Cubus]

"Miscarriage is the most common complicatio of early pregnancy. Among women who know they are pregnant, the miscarriage rate is roughly 10% to 20%, while rates among all fertilisation is around 30% to 50%." - official sources

So again - you made it up just to fit in your theory.

[Amarah0]

According to science they're not.

[Amarah0]

@Cubus I'm not sure what you are trying to disprove with that quote. I never denied that miscarriages happen?

[Cubus]

It seems you picked up the only one that fits your theory. All other definitions define embryonic as starting at conception

[Amarah0]

@Cubus you are welcome to Google stages of prenatal development.

[Cubus]

All the sources are listed gere come from Google

[Cubus]

*here

[Amarah0]

@Cubus no they come from dictionaries... Mine come from medical websites and scholar articles.

[Cubus]

Mine do too

[Cubus]

Besides: you're fighting about semantics while it's foolish. Like toddler or adolescent, the terms embryo and fetus do not refer to nonhumans, but to humans at particular stages of development. We're still talking about humans.

[Amarah0]

@Cubus I don't know what you're reading then because it's either incorrect or incredibly simplified for children to understand. Not high enough level to post links but Iowa state university have an informative article if you just Google prenatal development stages

[Amarah0]

I'm not telling you that you are wrong to argue with you I am trying to inform you and expand you knowledge on this topic that you seem to care about so much.

[Cubus]

I base what I sent on words of Prof. Manuel Ramos-Kuri who is a Director of the Bioethics Division at the Center for Advanced Social Research, CISAV in Queretaro

[Amarah0]

@Cubus can you link those words.

[Cubus]

You still didn't counter my arguements

[Amarah0]

@Cubus there was no argument to counter. I'm asking for your evidence

[Cubus]

You still didn't counter my first argument "healthcare is based on prolonging someone's life, not ending it"

[Amarah0]

@Cubus I did many times. You still haven't provided links.

[Cubus]

You didn't, but let's say I would skip it.

papers.ssrn.com/.../papers.cfm?abstract_id=3211703
Here you are

[Amarah0]

@Cubus funny how it's not written by who you said you got your information from. But I take it you never looked into this guy.

He seeked people to take this poorly made survey on an online marketplace and accepted all 2,979 people who wanted to do it, everyday people. Then he sent the survey to 62,469 biologists. He only got 5,502 responses total. 95% of the self selected respondants (that's the first group every day people) said life begins at fertilization. Only 70 of the 60,000+ biologists supported this guy's opinion.

"That result is not a proper survey method and does not carry any statistical or scientific weight. It is like asking 100 people about their favorite sport, finding out that only the 37 football fans bothered to answer, and declaring that 100% of Americans love football."

[Cubus]

I search from many sources. The one mentioned was first that came to my mind

[Amarah0]

@Cubus which is biased which makes it basically trash.

[Amarah0]

97% of the biologists that responded disagreed with him.

[Cubus]

By "not sending back" you guess "disagree"?

[Amarah0]

@Cubus I guess math isn't so basic... 5502 total respondants 2979 whom were every day people. Leaving 2523 biologists. 70÷2523×100= 97.3

[Cubus]

Some of the numbers you said do not even appear in this document. You little lier :)

[Amarah0]

@Cubus they do but again the article is false and a biased representation.

Only 70 of the 60000+ biologists supported his belief enough to sign the amicus brief.

[Cubus]

Again - that 60000 number is never mentioned in the article. You made it up

[Cubus]

You just assume if someone didn't respond then he doesn't agree which is not a scientific outcome.

[Amarah0]

@Cubus it is in the article... Goes to show you never actually read it.

[Amarah0]

I got my math confused before. The 70 people I am referring to are those who agreed to sign this man's amicus brief.

[Cubus]

Still, that number never appears in this document.

[Amarah0]

@Cubus because it's about his amicus brief. Not the article.

Anyways abortion is healthcare. Healthcare is a right. You can't just pick and choose when abortions suit your agenda. Women are dying because of people like you. Hope you have a good life living with that.

[Cubus]

So you have problem with women dying but not have a problem with babies dying?

[Amarah0]

@Cubus I have a problem with babies dying. I don't have a problem with embryos not continuing to develop.

[Cubus]

But both are human :)

[Amarah0]

Just because an embryo has the possibility of turning into a baby does not give it more rights than already born people.

You would save a born baby over a freezer full of embryos any day of the week.

[Cubus]

The right to live doesn't increase with age and size, otherwise toddlers and adolescents would have less rights to live than adults.

[Amarah0]

@Cubus good thing we aren't talking about born people then huh.

[Cubus]

We are talking :)

[LimitedBenefits101]

What celebrate abortion? gtfo, anyone that supports abortion needs to be sentenced for life or face the death penalty.