Should convicts be forced to work in order to pay for their upkeep?

[MrShaun]

A fundamental aspect of many societies is that the law-abiding citizens should not have to pay for the upkeep of the criminals. The 13th amendment to the U. S. Constitution, which abolished slavery, specifically stated

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

Do you believe those who are incarcerated should be forced to work in order to cover the cost of their upkeep and pay restitution to the victims?

It's no longer the 1800s. Forcing anyone into labor is primitive. Allow those convicted of a crime to relax and reflect on their crimes.

The tax-payer should not have to cover the expense of incarceration. Force the criminal to work, cover his or her overhead and repay their victim (s). It will teach good work ethics and make it that much more unlikely that criminals will (re) offend.

Updates

+1 y

Very interesting.

A fairly large majority believe convicts should work for their upkeep.

Updates

+1 y

One of the best forms of rehabilitation is strong and decisive punishment.

[Anonymous]

ABSOLUTELY NOT! Fuck that! Why the fuck would we want to use our valuable resources to force convicts to work when we could just simply hang their asses? It's much more efficient and cost-effective. Not only that, but it would also be a great way to reduce the prison population, which would save us a ton of money in the long run. Imagine all the money we could save if we didn't have to provide food, shelter, and medical care for those worthless piece of shit criminals. We could use that money to fund important programs like education and healthcare. But no, we can't have that. We need to keep those prison cells filled up with as many worthless criminals as possible. It's a fucking joke. And if you're going to argue that forcing convicts to work is a form of rehabilitation, then I have a fucking bridge to sell you. It's not. It's just another way to exploit the labor of those who have already been fucked over by the criminal justice system. So, no, fuck no. We should not force convicts to work. We should just fucking hang them.

And speaking of hanging, yestalerday i left an opinion on @krakenattackin question and the jannies removed it. So I'm going to repost it here. After all, @boobslayer posted the very intimate top secret photos of my mother feasting on barbecued horror cocks, so why can't I post the cuckvestigatory truth about him?

Post: Singapore just hanged a woman for importing cocaine. Should we applaud Singapore's equality?

Your Opinion removed:

If they'd hang @BoobSlayer for the same reason then yeah, we should applaud equality.

Though, simply "importing" it isn't wrong in my opinion. She could be importing it for personal use which I can't say anything against, her body her choice. If she's mixing it into people's medications then that would've deserved a hanging.

[MysticDevice]

"You take a bad boy, make him dig holes in the hot sun all day, and it turns him into a good boy"
-Mr. Sir, Holes. 2003.


Prisoners should be spending every waking minute of their sentence filling the labor gaps in the labor market.

[provokeesmokee]

You can't rehabilitate criminals into upstanding (read: taxpaying, producing) members of society if you enslave them all day.

America's prison system is basically a war crime, in my opinion. You've got disproportionate Black populations forced back into literal slavery over weed you can buy legally from a capitalist for $3.

It's fucked up.

America should look to Scandinavian countries for their criminal rehabilitation and police infrastructure.

[BoopBoopBeep]

Scandanavian countries don't have gang violence or ethnic/sectarian conflict to worry about like U. S. prisons do.

[exitseven]

If you get lugged for DUI in Sweeden you go away for a long time. Even though there is a big alcoholism problem you do not see anyone driving drunk.

[BoopBoopBeep]

@exitseven Wait, so... they don't just hug it out and let them walk out ROR?

[exitseven]

@BoopBoopBeep No, my cousin worked in Sweeden for a few years. He said they were really hard-core about DUIs because there were drunks all over the road and too many people were dying.

[MrShaun]

Should it make a difference as to what you're skin color is? If you're incarcerated, you're incarcerated. Maybe the point shouldn't be to rehabilitate but make the criminal not willing to return to prison.

[BoopBoopBeep]

@exitseven Its almost like tough on crime works... Where's NYC when you need em?

Oh wait... I never need them...

[MrShaun]

One of the best form of rehabilitation is strong and decisive punishment.

[wishiwasfiction]

I sure as hell don't want to be paying for their upkeep

[OlderAndWiser]

. . . and if they refuse to work, we simply let them starve to death? That's not gonna happen!

[MrShaun]

I don't know. I bet when they're is hungry enough they'll work.

[jshm2]

No. Not all convicts are "equal". You cannot claim a convicted serial killer is on the same level as a convict serving time for a speeding ticket he couldn't pay!

I know it's America, but that's fucked up as not even China does that!

[MrShaun]

I don't know that what other countries do really makes a difference. We have to devise a better working system in the U. S.

Resting the enforcement system on the backs of the law abiding tax payer isn't working and breaks the entire structure within society.

If the prison system was self sustaining, you could afford to have as much prison space built as needed. There would never be a situation where prisoners had to be released because of overcrowding.

Give the judicial branch the ability to do what they feel is correct.

[DermalPunch]

Are you aware that many of the products you buy at the supermarlet are made with unpaid, prison labour

From soap to toothpaste and everything in between. Prisons are SO profitable actually. this is not part of their sentence. It is slave labour in effect.

The prison is the new plantation.

[Throwawaynowknow]

A lot of prisoners sign up to work various jobs while in prison as it has its own benefits. The most sought after one is working in the library

[DermalPunch]

@Throwawaynowknow no, working in the library is different from. manufacturing things.

[Throwawaynowknow]

The make license plates which is sold by the state so it's not a private industry at least in my state. The point of the of question though was questioning whether it's right to force prisoners to work or not and whether you would be for such a setup. No prisoner is being forced to work whether it be in the library, the kitchen, or wherever they manufacturing things.

[DermalPunch]

@Throwawaynowknow you are incorrect. There is something called an exception clause in the US Constitution that has crested something called a "slavery loophole" and there is a Bill that has been tabled to end it in multiple states. Yes, there is forced unpaid labour going in in American prison systems.

"A report published by the American Civil Liberties Union in June 2022 found about 800,000 prisoners out of the 1.2 million in state and federal prisons are forced to work, generating a conservative estimate of $11bn annually in goods and services while average wages range from 13 cents to 52 cents per hour. Five states – Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Mississippi and Texas – force prisoners to work without pay. The report concluded that the labor conditions of US prisoners violate fundamental human rights to life and dignity."

www.google.com/.../slavery-loophole-unpaid-labor-in-prisons

[Throwawaynowknow]

Interesting. Thanks for the link :)

[DermalPunch]

@Throwawaynowknow most welcome! Happy reading.

[Iron_Man]

Believe me, they want to be free some feel that they should not be put in there in the first place that it was wrong justice. They will do anything just to get out and work for a while. Even though it’s backbreaking work just to get out of the prison atmosphere.

[Dargil]

I would support a two tiered system. We are morally obligated to provide sustenance and palliative medical care to prisoners. But is reasonable to establish a rehabilitative system where prisoners secure more benefits by sticking to the rules. If they had in the past they would not be prisoners. See how that works?

[Throwawaynowknow]

Interesting question. While I would like to say yes i think prisoners shouldn't be forced to work off the time their incarcerated because them being sent to prison is so that they are separated from from the rest of society in large part, to keep us safe. Since we would be reapong the benefit, it should be up to us to answer the following question:

does it makes sense to confine person P at a cost of C if they represent a level of danger of D.

[Throwawaynowknow]

The other issue is that judges would get payoffs from the very people who would stand to gain if more people were sent to prison and then could work on the projects that disproportionately benefit those same few businessessman

[MrShaun]

No question there would need to be oversight, but it would still work.

[purplepoppy]

That takes work away from law abiding citizens. Any work they do should only affect within prison walls.

[BoobSlayer]

Meh, the South is too damn hot for law-abiding citizens to work.

[exitseven]

There was a furniture store that sold really well made tables, chairs and kids toys that were made in prison. I bought a nice kids table and chairs when my kids were little. I still have it after over 20 years and will be using it for my future grandkids.

[MrShaun]

It would give the unincarcerated a good reason to receive a better education and even better employment. Yes?

[peedy]

Yes and no they should have to work to help them rehabilitate themselves and learn new skills but not like the chain gang of the past where they were trest inhumanity and severely punished for the tiniest infraction
People need their dignity and should be help up not beat down keep in mind that everyone is different and things like that need to be earned and there are exceptions some inmates are beyond help

[Agape93]

Take anyone on death row, anyone that's in life in prison or would be above 75 when they'd get out, take every sex offender or supporter of it. Take them out to the yard and execute them. All of them.

[Zatsuma]

Agape, I admire your honesty as there have been times in the past I've even thought that too after hearing some of the horrible things that they have done, HOWEVER, what if years down the road evidence arises that proves that person was charged for a crime they didn't commit?

[Agape93]

Couldn't care less. Id rather wrongly convicted folks die if it means that all those freaks and dead weights die.

Don't mistake me for one with low will and intact empathy. You won't find that here.

[normalice]

If they are allowed to decide where they live, of course. But if we are deciding for them the we should be willing to pay for it.

[MrShaun]

So it has to do with what prison cell they're placed in?

"Well, Joe, we have this wonderful location on cell block C that picks up wonderful evening light, but you'll have to put up with the stench from the sewer. On the other hand, cell block B will provide close approximation to laundry services so you'll find the steam does wonders for your pores.

By the way, I get 2% as your relator."

[normalice]

If their options are limited to prison cells then they aren't really being given a choice.

[GoodGuyBreakingBad]

Convicts shouldn't receive hard labor, but the Tax payers shouldn't have to pay for them being in jail. So some laws need passed to settle this.

[MrShaun]

Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways. The tax-payer or the criminals -- one has to pay.

[BoopBoopBeep]

Leavenworth has some of the nicest prisoners I've ever met. They have hard and soft labor there. The ones in the metal shop are more polite than most people's kids now a days. In addition to fixing stuff around base, the stuff they make is sold in a store on base to help offset the costs of the metal shop. Everybody wins. Plus their grills/patio furniture are cheaper than stuff on the local economy and twice the thickness of metal. I don't see why that can't exist elsewhere.

[Avicenna]

No, that is not how it works when you deprive someone of their freedom. And let's not violate labor laws, either.

[MrShaun]

Why can't it work that way? The 13th amendment specifically outlines this procedure.

[Avicenna]

It would be a violation of the Eighth Amendment prohibition of "cruel and unusual punishment".

Is there case law that says what you want to do is "involuntary servitude" that is permitted under the 13th Amendment?

[Avicenna]

It would fall under an "excessive fine"

[MrShaun]

The amendment has been upheld in several cases. It's existed since the 1800s.

[Avicenna]

That's not what I asked you. I asked if federal courts have interpreted the 13th Amendment to mean you could make inmates work to pay for their upkeep? And, have such rulings been overruled, either legislatively or judicially?

13th Amendment case law presumably covers multiple areas. If you can't cite specific VALID case law, we're left with only your personal interpretation.

[Avicenna]

Even more relevant than the Eighth Amendment, might be this statute:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1994

[msc545]

Actually, given a choice, almost all prisoners prefer work to boredom. They earn a little bit of money which helps with phone calls and items from the prison commissary.

[msc545]

Nobody forces prisoners to work, but almost all choose to in order to have a little money and something to pass the time.

[KrakenAttackin]

@msc545. Truth. When I was a cop, we had the prisoner trustees wash and clean our patrol cars. If they did a good job we would buy them a pizza and coke. Prisoners lives this detail as it was a chance to get in the sun, listen to the radio while cleaning the cars, and get fresh air. What happened? The ACLU clamped down on us for "slave labor" and the work detail ended. The prisoners were bummed.

[msc545]

@KrakenAttackin In California, they get paid a little bit (Less than $ 1.00 / hr) but it's enough to buy some stuff in the commissary, and they enjoy getting out of their cells.

[msc545]

Prisoners that work rarely cause trouble because they don't want to lose that work. This makes the whole prison safer for everyone.

[KrakenAttackin]

Absolutely correct.

[BoopBoopBeep]

@KrakenAttackin The ACLU lost the plot some time ago. Like the PETA animal shelters with the highest kill rates in the country. I'd burn my money in the streets before ever giving either a dime.

[exitseven]

When David Crosby was in prison for drug and gun violations he had to work in the prison mattress factory. He said that they told him that' they wanted him to learn a trade he could use once he got out.

[exitseven]

@KrakenAttackin There used to be a shoe factory around here. They had problems finding workers so they started a work program with the local jail They got two guys to run the wilting machine. The wilting machine is like a powerful sewing machine that is used to stitch the sole onto the upper. Running the wilting machine used to be a good job in the old days. So they were training these two guys. At lunch these guys went outside and got stoned. When they went back to work one guy stitched his hand onto the shoe and when the other guy saw it he said he wanted to go back to his cell

[exitseven]

*welting*

[rosemilk]

i don't see how that could ever work out, logically... tax payers still pay for this...

[MrShaun]

Why would tax payers be forced to pay for any of it if the prison system is self-sustaining?

[exitseven]

Bring back rhe road gangs. Nothing wrong with some hard labor. It will make them less likely to re offend.

[msc545]

No, it will actually make them very angry and MORE likely to re-offend.

[exitseven]

@msc545 We could used the manual labor then.

[MrShaun]

@msc545 I don't know why one would belive so. If one knew that labor would be inforced and release from prison because of overcrowding wasn't going to happen, it would seem the offender would have good reason to not want to be incarcerated.

[msc545]

It does not work that way. I worked as a prison doctor for about 5 years.

[MrShaun]

@msc545 with respect, it does work that way. Maricopa County has had great success with forcing such labor camps.

When the offender knows their negative actions result in strong, decisive and adverse reaction, he/she is much less likely to offend.

And if they do, that much the better -- we can use the cheap labor.

[msc545]

"Success" is defined as?

[AviatorTom]

Unless they are physically unable to work, they should work and help pay for the costs of their incarceration.

[zero444440000]

the first option is just straight up misleading, since everyone is froced to do labor, i mean how else do you make a living if you have no money to buy food with?

[Andres77]

Prison should be sooooo fuqing miserable that people should actually be afraid of going there.

[CuriousMufuxka]

Actually many convicts get work release with the ankle device thingy.

[MrShaun]

Or maybe they should be forced into hard labor with that whip thingy.

[CuriousMufuxka]

Shit, you ain't seen where I work..

[FireFox001]

Your two answers are loaded and does not merit a choice.

[MrShaun]

They seen pretty balanced to me.

[jjj101010]

Society should have to pay for it, this is the cost of not having them free

[MrShaun]

With respect, why is that? Why do you believe the offender shouldn't be responsible for his/her upkeep?

[jjj101010]

I mean where does it stop, do the criminals have to pay for the police who arrested them, the investigation, the courts who tried and convicted them? What happens if the prisoners r not able to work due to their physical or mental health? There’s just certain stuff that society have to pay for through tax in order to exist.

[MrShaun]

Yes. Sometimes the offender does have to pay court costs. And, I believe that should be duly enforced.

[John_Doesnt]

Forced labor is slavery.

[MrShaun]

Yes it is.

[Jltakk]

Prison slavery is wrong.

[jahaims]

Yep.

[muscles_glasses]

absolutely not