Does "toxic masculinity" really exist?

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

In simple terms:

TOXIC MASCULINITY:

.

MASCULINITY:

.

TOXIC MASCULINITY:

.

MASCULINITY:

.

In other words: If you’re always against women, that’s toxic masculinity. If you’re against men, and CAN compete against other males. That’s real masculinity.

A true male is meant to combat other males. Not females. A real man understands to protect and provide for the female of his kind. No real male , desirable male I've ever met, has complained about female sexually and female nature at all.

[provokeesmokee]

Yeah.

Men's mental health being a non-issue for much of the population is a consequence of toxic masculinity.

The unfairness towards single fathers because "raising a child isn't a man's job" is still an attitude of many a court is due to toxic masculinity.

Men being judged for being who they are instead of being this stereotypical old archetypes of "manly man" is a result of toxic masculinity.

Men being told their injuries and illnesses should be solved by "just manning up" is a result of toxic masculinity.

Men are the victims of toxic masculinity as much as the rest of us are.

[veganrogue]

@provokeesmokee - I loved your answer. I was debating this issue with a girl. And when I told her that men suffer too, she just dismissed me and refused to continue the conversation.

[stepyo99]

I think the meme is pretty accurate. "Toxic masculinity" is the opposite of what feminism thinks it is. What's wrong with men today is a lack of masculinity thanks to missing role models and the culture attacking men while worshiping pussy. Not even worshiping women, just pussy.

I think you could say the same thing about femininity as well. Feminism is the polar opposite of femininity. Women grow up without positive role models and so we have the current state where women think feminine = being a slut or a raging bitch.

[DextroShade]

It's a bullshit term invented by feminists to shame any male behaviors they don't like or that make it harder for them to get away with being whores. Some of the more woke man-haters think all masculinity is toxic. In truth, it is modern feminism that is far more toxic than anything men do.

[CurrentJohn]

Toxic masculinity comes from misandric feminists. Feminists always talk about how men are mysoginistic, while there are more and more misandric women out there that are just frustrated and love hating on anything that is male. Modern society destroys masculinity and leaves confused boys behind that then grow up as men that don`t really know how they should handle themselves. Every time a feminist talks about equality, they only talk about what could be done better for women, but have you ever heard a feminist talk about equality and then say something positive about men? Yeah, me neither.

[A_Bell]

Calling something "toxic masculinity" is just a backhanded way to insult men as a group. It is all just referring to the same thing, personalities with low agreeability causing trouble for everyone else.

There are equal numbers of women, if not more, that share this problem. Women are some of the most agreesive and passively agressive antagonists you'll see. We just never take blame for anything.

[AlbantheGreat]

I think "toxic masculinity" existed for good reasons, because the world was tough. But what do these people propose as an alternative male role model, exactly? Being vulnerable. For a large part, it's just a feminist propaganda, especially when so many of them are just misandrists who hate or despise men. On their side, it's more like" oh poor women who suffer so much"'. And what they propose for men is shallow.

I think the future of men of the West, especially for young men of the lowest classes, is bleak, so men need to be tougher, stronger, and I doubt those who despise "toxic masculinity" have such a role model. It's a necessity, because "Tough times create strong men..."

[MrOracle]

That's just masculinity. It's the radical Feminists that have tried to re-frame masculine traits as being toxic, so that men can be blamed for everything, and women absolved of any responsibility.

[AlbantheGreat]

@MrOracle I think some parts of masculinity, like some parts of feminity, can be toxic, like "A man doesn't cry", or "mans up".
But I agree about the radical feminists.

[MrOracle]

Stoicism has an important place in a man's life. There's a time and place for crying, but it's important as a man to be strong enough to maintain control over your emotions in MOST situations. Men that cannot are dangerous - not because they might cry at a bad time, but because they can also be violent unexpectedly, because they cannot keep control of themselves. This describes many criminals, who become violent at the smallest perceived slight, for example.

[AlbantheGreat]

@MrOracle I am a stoic, I try at least. And you're right, it's important to get the ataraxia mindset. After, I think men who can't control their emotions can be dangerous if you meet them face to face.

[Miah05]

Yes. Toxic masculinty comes from the fake tough guys who think acting like a jerk and a bully is masculine because they have 0 clue what masculinity is.

Men who just act like their natural masculine self is not toxic.

[nastyb]

you can forget about "masculinity" when vast majority of men cannot adequately provide for their families. If all men were so masculine, most women wouldn't have to work

[stepyo99]

Women: we want to be in the workforce!
Also women: How come I can't find a man who can support me on a single income?
It's called the "supply/demand curve" honey, you should look it up. You can thank feminism for increasing the size of the labor pool for why men aren't able to support your ungrateful ass on a single income anymore.

[nastyb]

@stepyo99

Women increasing supply of labor pool has NOTHING to do with how much men earn. Employers aren't going to pay you more if women aren't employed. The reason why men can no longer support families on one income is due to inflation outpacing salary increases.

[nastyb]

@stepyo99

you're paid what you're worth. If you're valuable player at the company, you will get paid more. If you contribute little to nothing, you get paid less.

Women being there or not will not make a difference

[stepyo99]

You have no idea how economics works. Increasing the supply of something, including workers, decreases prices (aka wages). That's economics 101. If women weren't working, companies would have to increase wages in order to compete to attract workers from a smaller labor force.

[AlbantheGreat]

In capitalism, your pay is based by the market, not on your inner worth: economic elits decided to relocate their means of production in countries where the "labour cost" is cheaper. The consumer could buy cheaper products, but many working class men became jobless, because there was no job.
In my country, farmers are pretty old, few young people become farmers. Why? Because the pay is low, and women prefer to stay in big cities. When these old farmers will become too old to do their job, there will probably a huge issue in the food production in the next years. Are you saying a farmer, who feeds everybody, is useless?
Capitalism is unfair, and when there are 100 men who could replace you, you aren't in a position of strength, so why would your employer pay you more? In the job market, if there is more demand (more job seekers), the offer (the employer) is stronger.
Plus, the traditional works ocuppied by men (the extraction and production of raw materials and the industry) weakened to the profit of the service sector, occupied in a large part by women.

So, women are not directly responsible of the way western capitalism turned, but, on average, the rise of women is correlated to the downfall of men, and that downfall will probably worsen in the next years.

[nastyb]

@stepyo99

where are companies going to have the money to increase wages when top talent is missing (by not hiring women) and decreased productivity (not having enough workers)? You can't make money without top talent and not having enough workers. Employers will never look to pay you more than what you're worth. Employers are a business, they will always try to pay you as LITTLE as possible unless you're the "most valuable player".

take a look at healthcare... there aren't enough nurses and they're not even willing to pay more to attract more nurses. Nurses have to fight for a wage increase.

take a look at the homeless population soaring in the US, there's really no such thing as a shortage of workers even if women were eliminated from the workforce.

[nastyb]

@AlbantheGreat

Thats not always the case. Take a look at teachers... they're all leaving the profession all together. Nobody has increased the wages of teachers. Take a look at the healthcare industry... nurses are quitting in droves due to chronic understaffing... they're not increasing the pay rate for nurses. Take a look at police officers... they're quitting all across the nation... do you see them increasing wages for police officers? NO

[So, women are not directly responsible of the way western capitalism turned, but, on average, the rise of women is correlated to the downfall of men, and that downfall will probably worsen in the next years.]

Women are never responsible for downfall of men. Because truth is... employers do not care about gender equality. They just like to hire the person most qualified for the job. And if it means that a woman is more qualified and talented than the man, she should be hired.

Hiring top talent increases profits and productivity of the workforce.

[AlbantheGreat]

@nastyb And that choice could lead to a catastrophe.
On the invidual level, some women are responsible of the downfall of some men, like if they're her ex-husband, her son...
Anyway, I think many American women have an outdated perspective of gender dynamics in the couple. If you make 6 figures, why wouldn't you be the provider of your couple? If you're succesful, why do you expect an outdated gender dynamics? We aren't in the 50s and 60s anymore, things changed.
But it's your life, lady. Do the choices you want, and pay the price of it, because there is always a price to pay.

[nastyb]

@AlbantheGreat

[On the invidual level, some women are responsible of the downfall of some men, like if they're her ex-husband, her son...]

women actually lose in marriage while men win in marriage.

did you know that even though women work full time jobs, wives still do an additional 7 hours of housework while husbands do 1 hr less housework AFTER MARRIAGE?

did you know that women make less money after having children while men make more money while having children?

marriage contributes to downfall of women. maybe thats why she is divorcing you

[nastyb]

@AlbantheGreat

[Anyway, I think many American women have an outdated perspective of gender dynamics in the couple. If you make 6 figures, why wouldn't you be the provider of your couple?]

6 figures does nothing for the average family. 100,000 is barely enough to scrape by. Women have nothing to do with men not being able to be adequate breadwinners. It all has to do with inflation outpacing wage growth.

take an economics class before you go on your woman hating tirade.

[AlbantheGreat]

@nastyb
"6 figures does nothing for the average family. 100,000 is barely enough to scrape by. Women have nothing to do with men not being able to be adequate breadwinners. It all has to do with inflation outpacing wage growth."
Do you realise, 100.000 dollars by year make like 8.333 dollars per month? Only 36% of americans do that salary, do you realise that?
Well, I'm not American, but apparently the cost of life is really high there. I don't know what to advice you, but personnally I have a minimalist philosophy: if it's not necessary, I don't buy it, for the most part. So, even if my revenue is not really high, I can deal with it.
And I think you're wrong about me: it's not that I hate you, I just don't care about you. We aren't close, so why should I? I haven't enough energy to worry about people who won't help me anyway.

[nastyb]

@AlbantheGreat

the topic was about man and woman, husband and wife and family.

we are not talking a minimalistic lifestyle where you're single with no kids.

[AlbantheGreat]

"women actually lose in marriage while men win in marriage.
did you know that even though women work full time jobs, wives still do an additional 7 hours of housework while husbands do 1 hr less housework AFTER MARRIAGE?
did you know that women make less money after having children while men make more money while having children?
marriage contributes to downfall of women. maybe thats why she is divorcing you "
I think the goal of marriage is about raising children and make them able to survive and thrive in the world.
According to what I read, a woman make less money after the marriage because she has children, so she takes care of her children, which means she will work less often, so her boss will pay her less than before.
You talk about housework. Okay, men make less housework, on average, right. But there are other things to consider. For example, if he's a CEO, he could make like 7 figures, he will be really busy, so his contribution could be financiary. Or, he could be a plumber, so when there is an issue of that kind, he could just repair that, and you wouldn't have to pay a plumber...
I don't know what you want. Do you want to communicate on that matter? Or do you want he complies to your demands?
Personnally, I think the responsabilities are shared: there is the responsability of the society, our own responsability and the responsability of others.
You react the same way as many MGTOWs: it's other's fault, it's society's fault if marriage is a failure nowadays. But when will people take their responsabilities for their own failures, their own wrongdoings? I take my share of responsability, and only my share.
And I never married, I just heard and read the testimony of men burned by their divorce, I read the stats. My hesitation on being married is based on reason, not feelings, because I base my decisions on reason, even if pain allowed me to realise what were relationships are in too many times.

[stepyo99]

Nothing you said had any relation to my point. Not one single word. Seriously do yourself a favor and either do a little reading on the supply/demand curve or watch a youtube video. You're clueless.

[AlbantheGreat]

@nastyb
"the topic was about man and woman, husband and wife and family.
we are not talking a minimalistic lifestyle where you're single with no kids."
And you talked about the importance of making 6 figures for a man, because of expenses. But are you sure all those expenses are really necessary?
The topic was about toxic masculinity, not about family in itself, and you launched the suject of the lack of "real men" because few can provide nowadays.
So, if your issue about these men is they don't provide enough, wouln't you be interested in ideas to lower expenses, so the number of "real men" could extend for you.
And being single, as a man, can allow you to have a minimalistic lifestyle (but not all will do it), and not when you have a wife and children. Women are greater consumers than men nowadays, on average, and children cost a lot.

[Kingofkings1992]

No, it doesn’t. The term “toxic masculinity” has no absolutely zero objective ground. It is merely a shame tactic used by modern feminists. The instant you flip the script, and apply something of similar nature to women, you will deemed a “sexist.”

[Kingofkings1992]

Damn I should’ve proofread. Lol

[Sabretooth]

I define it as a man who uses masculinity as a crutch and uses it to look down on others. I look at it like white supremacy--where one thing gives you dominion over everyone else... Even though being white is nothing special in terms of... Anything.

[HelpfulWoman]

easily yes. same as toxic femininity is also a thing?

[inhua]

feminists and male feminists exhibit more toxic masculinity than the men they claim to have toxic masculinity

[WhitneySnow]

Toxic masculinity is definitely a problem. Just look at Andrew Tate and role models like him.

[MementoMori777]

Yes because people make it that way, but the actual form of toxic masculinity doesn't, masculinity is masculinity but people can make it toxic

[Sonorous]

Yes... It's just a way of highlighting an extreme that is harmful. Anything can be seen as toxic if extremely harmful enough.

[Miristheiss]

No.

Masculinity is NOT toxic.

Some people are toxic not masculinity.

[Emilianorodríguez]

Yes, toxic masculinity is a label for exaggerated and socially unproductive displays of violence, status seeking, anti-sociability, and other forms of aggression.

[Emilianorodríguez]

Toxic masculinity is encouraged by women, who indoctrinate men to be bodyguards, providers, men must learn to be independent and stop protecting women as well as learn to stop giving money to women.

[ZamerZ]

I agree with the first post you made. The second addition would need a more complex take since it's not only women who try to indoctrinate men on "how to be a real man" - it comes down to media, parents, the country you live in... much more. Besides, you also have toxic asexual and aromantic men or gay men who display toxic masculinity. So that can't be rooted in "women make us do it."

[Emilianorodríguez]

In other words, when male intrasexual competition becomes inadaptive for society.

[jshm2]

No. Its an ideal

Like atheism and flat earthism, it isn't based on any facts, just strong opinions.

[genericname85]

no it doesn't. toxic behavior patterns that are more likely to be displayed by men exist. but framing masculinity as toxic is itself a toxic act.

[MountAverage]

Yes, and the ones who deny it always prove that they don't even understand what it means to begin with.

[chilldude33]

toxic masculinity is basically lack of empathy towards self and others to appear more "powerful" or whatever

[strateguy632]

oh it included MUCH MORE than that, but maybe it should only refer to what you wrote.

[TonyMetal___86]

No such thing as toxic masculinity or feminity, it's all about the person, it's either they are toxic or not...

[ZamerZ]

While I agree with this, it's more about stereotypical attributes that society assigned for them. Being physically aggressive is considered "masculine", but it is a toxic trait if an individual acts like that. In cases of "toxic femininity", we would have to look at an attribute that is considered stereotypically feminine by society - so maybe nurture? The only example I could think of for a toxic kind of nurture would be Münchhausen Syndrome.

[Snakeyes7]

No. It is nothing but the demonization of natural male behavior by associating negative behavior to masculinity despite it being non-gendered in reality.

[DarkLegacy]

Probably but it is not as prevalent nor as bad as toxic femininity

[gothbxtch]

yes absolutely. see what @provokeesmokee said

[Anonymous]

Yes but the term is used way too loosely and it's not nearly as big of a problem as the people you're referring to are trying to make it seem.

[Anonymous]

No. There's no such thing as toxic masculinity. There's only masculinity that some snowflakes consider toxic.

[Anonymous]

it does. But too many males are brainwashed to even realize that.

[Opinion Owner]

Lack of fathers? Tell males to stop sleeping around and running from responsibility. Lack of male teachers? God knows why males are fear to pursue a career in education. This whole lack of masculinity issue is a problem on the males part, no one else’s. Instead of whining with stupid reddit shit go work on a solution if its that hOrRiD.

[ChooChooHaha]

No more than toxic femininity.

[Jersey2]

We need to let boys be boys again.

[Twalli]

Toxic masculinity does exist.

[jimmy2]

Yes it does stay away from it

[whistlingwh0res]

more like jerks

[Wonderingguyy]

Hell yes

[butterly248]

Andrew Tate

[gorydetails]

not at all.