Do you think toxic masculinity exists?

[MysticMac27]

Yes

No

Other

[BuchitaBuchys]

Yes, but not in how all you butthurt mofos think.
Masculinity in itself IS NOT TOXIC. Let me repeat that for you fuckers with red pills in y'alls ears, MASCULINITY IN ITSELF IS NOT TOXIC.

There are "traditionally" and biologically male traits that are perfectly fine, and even necessary for society. Protection is one of them. Not to say that women can't or shouldn't be protectors, but because men ON AVERAGE are larger and have greater muscle mass (aka more physical strength) than women, they are much better suited for protection in most cases. So when does protection become toxic? When it becomes coddling. I don't need protection all the time. And lording over me, waiting for a threat is just weird.
Another masculine trait is logic. Again, this doesn't mean that women can't or aren't logical, it's just that men use more logic in decisions than women on average. So when can this become toxic? Well, we aren;t robots. A thing a told my boyfriend is that I don't like right leaning dudes because they are so logical, that they become robotic. There's a reason why we haven't replaced judges with robots. We need emotion in our reasoning, otherwise a man who kills another man in self defense will get the same prison sentence as a man who senselessly murders a man while robbing him.

There are many more examples and just as masculinity isn't inherently bad, but can get toxic. So can femininity.
equalitycanada.com/.../toxic.jpg

[BuchitaBuchys]

I should add that being overly logical not only makes you seem robotic, but callous and uncaring as well. I

[DinaM]

Yes, it does. And by that I do not, as some guys seem to think, mean ALL masculinity is toxic. Guys can be guys, and there's nothing wrong with it.

It's when guys are not allowed to be themselves because they have to be tough and manly all the time, or when we get the mocking of how gay guys aren't really men, or how any guy who likes cooking or knitting or other typically "feminine" things is a wuss and a sissy who should be shamed and ridiculed... that's when we're talking toxic.

[hellionthesagereborn]

So is their toxic femininity? and if so why does no one mention that?

[DinaM]

@hellionthesagereborn Because what you might call "toxic femininity" -- women and girls being forced into certain types of roles because of their gender and mocked and ridiculed for daring to step away from their "designed" role is known by another name.

[hellionthesagereborn]

which is? Also when are they mocked for doing things differently? From what I can see we have a concerted push to get women into every single male oriented field of study, of occupation, of athletics etc. While we do not do the same for men. So I am not sure what roles they are being forced into against their will (what specifically I mean)?

[DinaM]

@hellionthesagereborn It's called "sexism," my good man. And if you think that's a thing of the past... you have not lived as a woman.

[hellionthesagereborn]

So when men get treated like crap its "toxic masculinity" but when women get treated like "crap" its sexism? I'm sorry do you not see the irony in that statement? Its all mens fault when they get screwed over (toxic masculinity/patriarchy) and its all mens fault when women get screwed over ("sexism"(even though statistically its men who have fewer rights then women and are losing out in every category while women are gaining). Yeah, if you think sexism is a thing of the past then you have never lived as a man.

[DinaM]

@hellionthesagereborn Toxic masculinity has its roots in sexism. They're different names for what is essentially the same problem, or if you will two sides of the same coin.

The entire thing essentially domes from viewing traditionally "feminine" values and norms as having less worth. A woman taking on the traditional male values has a mariginally bigger chance of being taken seriously, but more often she's denounced as being an aggressive bitch who is trying to be as good as a man. Meanwhile, a man taking on a more feminine role is ridiculed as being a wuss and a pansy. It's the classic "boys are tough and brave, girls are sweet and demure" stereotype, which is less in effect now than it once was, but it's by no means still gone.

Toxic masculinity means men aren't allowed to be weak, or scared, or vulnerable, or emotional, because those are feminine things and hence a man should be "above" them.

[DinaM]

You must have noticed such things, even here on this site. If a guy tries to side with girls in an argument, or express interest in "girly" things, there comes the mockery, and most often the accusation that he's just doing it in the hopes that the girls will fuck him if he pretends to put up with them. Because no way a man CAN'T be sex-obsessed or macho, right?

And that IS toxic. It means guys can't really express their real feelings or interests... at least not if those feelings or interests aren't traditionally masculine. If you don't like beer, football, boobs or violence, then be prepared to be declared that you're not a man.

This isn't JUST the fault of the men. Individually, lots of women build up around it too. Demanding that the guys be tough and strong and what have you. Because despite what some people think, being a victim of prejudices does not mean you yourself don't have prejudices. I know I do, though I try to overcome them where I can.

[DinaM]

Let's face it, the world is ruled by men. I know, you'll point to statistics that say that women get the power and privileges, but fact is, most positions of power have historically been held by men, and even today the vast majority of world leaders are men.

Currently, of the nations of the world, there are 20 women holding the office of Head of State or Head of Government... which represents 6,3% of the total number of international leaders. In businesses and companies, according to the Fortune 500 2017 list, the number of women CEOs of the biggest companies is 32 -- in other words, 6,4%.

This is a slight imbalance in power, which is why it becomes that much more noticeable when women do rise to the top. If another man becomes leader of a world country, he's just another man among hundreds, and doesn't get much attention other than on his own merits... a woman, however, gets a LOT of attention purely based on her gender, because that's a rarity.

[DinaM]

Which again leads to a skewed and unfair society. Ultimately, the unfairness attacks both sides. And then come the blame-game, with men and women alike both insisting that the other party gets all the goods and their own side gets nothing.

If we really had true equality, people would be judge on the merits of their character and not of their gender, and we wouldn't have this sort of argument at all.

[hellionthesagereborn]

So women choosing not to take risks, not to take hard jobs is proof that men rule the world and they ostricise and mistreat women? That's kind of a completely insane notion don't you think? You can point to statistic after statistic showing that men are the ones screwed in society, 80% of the homeless are men, 70% of all nonreciprical violence between intimate partners is perpetrated by women against men, when its reciprocal its 50/50 yet in the US their is only one mens domestic violence shelter and over 2000 for women, 98% of all workplace accidents and deaths are male (because men are the ones pressured to take tougher and more dangerous jobs) 97% of all combat deaths are male (and in fact when it comes to civilian deaths due to war, men are also over 90% of the victims), men are raped at the same rates as women based upon data from the CDC/NCVS yet are primarily ignored, women are responsible for 80% of domestic spending (70% globally),

[hellionthesagereborn]

63% of all college graduates are female and the number is growing, despite this women have vast amounts of resources available to them in the form of grants, scholarships and assistance programs for education, men have next to none in comparison (unless you count sports which makes the schools an incredible amount of money at the expense of the athletes physical well being (and they receive no money for it either)). In the US it is illegal to circumcise a woman YET doing the very same thing (and yes, they do remove the same amount of tissue and they remove it for the same exact reason and no their is no medical benefit to it and in fact you have a higher probability of bleeding to death from the procedure then ever needing it for medical purposes (not to mention the risks of complete emasculation) to infant boys is perfectly legal and is so common 70% of the male population in the US is circumcised against their will.

[hellionthesagereborn]

In order to vote, get a license, get a state and federal grant or loan a male citizen is required to sign the selective service card agreeing that the government has the authority and right to conscript him at any time they feel its necessary. Women get all of those things by simply being born in the country meaning women have the right to vote and get a license etc. while men do not, we have to agree to a contract that could potentially result in us being sent off to die in order to get those things making it by definition a privilege. The list goes on. Their is no evidence of anything that discriminates against women, except for when its beneficial (like how women get significantly lighter sentences (66% less then a man for the same crime) when sentenced at all. Or how according to the court ruling of Hermsmann vs seyer a man is always required to pay child support no matter the circumstances, in this case the man was a 12 year old boy who had to pay his babysitter who raped him).

[hellionthesagereborn]

Trying to dismiss the statistics does not alter the facts. Women are not suffering in any way shape or form in this society, they have more rights and privileges then any group has ever had and that is backed by statistical data and laws. So I would argue that toxic feminity is when a woman claims to be a victim over and over again because she has been allowed to avoid responsibility for so long that she doesn't know how to stop being a victim and owning up to her actions. Its when a woman and spews out the most sexist things, like suggesting all men through out all of history (or near enough) oppressed, beat and treated women like objects (despite all evidence to the contrary) which is the assigning of a characteristic of an individual to a group i. e. guilt by association (and made up crime to begin with) which is by definition sexism. That's toxic femininity.

[hellionthesagereborn]

As for your claims of how men treat other men, no I have not seen that. What I have seen is pandering, and men will call it out when they see it but that's different. I've seen a man confess he actually kind of liked romance novels, that's weird, but no one gave a damn (at best they would give him a hard time but that's how men joke (ask any man, its part of who we are. Academics have suggested that its done to prepare men for the harshness of life, functioning not unlike rough play or play fighting, helping them build up a tolerance to criticism and the inevitable emotional strain they will be placed under (because some one needs to do all those hard jobs that women refuse to do (statistically speaking)). The irony is that its women who treat men like crap and women like crap for the traditional roles. You act as if how we behave is some how "wrong", its not, its biology its how we are. We don't cry like women because we are not physically capable of it (fewer tear ducts) yet

[hellionthesagereborn]

women say that since we don't act like them it must be "toxic masculinity". They demand we do what we cannot do. When women want to be traditional its women who rip her apart for it. Men revere femininity, far more then women do that's why they bend over backwards for women putting themselves at risk for them. That's why historically women praised men, because we did all the hard jobs and protected women. Now women (due to toxic femininity) want all the privileges of being a woman (because lets be perfectly honest, you do not want equality or you would just go out and do what men have been doing for all of history instead of demanding that men dumb themselves down and handicap themselves for your benefit) and all the respect men use to get while pawning off all the responsibilities off onto men.

[hellionthesagereborn]

That's how this works that's how toxic femininity works, its solipsism, its the hijacking of the womans natural tendency to prioritize self and turning it into such an extreme state that any and all empathy for others, specifically men, cannot exist. That's what your doing you claim victim hood but every single statistic shows the exact opposite, your every day interactions show that men pander to you not to men, it shows that the laws are all biased in your favor (that's why men only get equal or better custody of their children 44% of the time vs. a womans 96% of the time (statistically speaking). Its why women then claim its because he wasn't in the childs life, because you know he is expected to work all day and night to provide for her and the child he barely gets to see or she will divorce (again, statistically speaking)). Again, their is no argument against what I am saying, at least none that actually use facts.

[DinaM]

@hellionthesagereborn Okay. Taking your points one by one here.
"So women choosing not to take risks, not to take hard jobs is proof that men rule the world and they ostricise and mistreat women? That's kind of a completely insane notion don't you think?"

Just that you immediately blame women for "choosing not to take risks" as the reason why the world is ruled by men show that you have no clue what you're talking about. Google "glass ceiling" sometimes, and you might see just how much harder some people, including women, have to struggle to gain the same result. I mean, you probably won't believe any of it, because you've clearly already decided that everything is women's fault and that men are all blameless woobies, but that's on you.

[DinaM]

"You can point to statistic after statistic showing that men are the ones screwed in society, 80% of the homeless are men,"

That is true. And yet, on average the poverty rate are higher for women than it is for men. According to a 2015 study, women (13.4%) were 35% more likely than men (9.9%) to live in poverty. Of people above 65 years of age, it's more extreme, with 64.6% of senior citizens living under the poverty line being women.

"70% of all nonreciprical violence between intimate partners is perpetrated by women against men, when its reciprocal its 50/50, yet in the US their is only one mens domestic violence shelter and over 2000 for women,"

That is true, and why aren't there more shelters for men? Why don't men hit back? Because men have been indoctricated that "you don't hit girls, girls are weaker." Because women are perceived as weak and men are perceived as strong, there is this ridiculous notion that men don't need help.

[DinaM]

"98% of all workplace accidents and deaths are male (because men are the ones pressured to take tougher and more dangerous jobs) 97% of all combat deaths are male (and in fact when it comes to civilian deaths due to war, men are also over 90% of the victims),"

Well, to use your own argument, men choosing to do those dangerous jobs and get into combat situations being an example of how men suffer more than women is equally insane to claim.

[DinaM]

"men are raped at the same rates as women based upon data from the CDC/NCVS yet are primarily ignored,"

Since only a small percentage of acts of sexual violence are brought to the attention of the authorities, it's difficult to compile accurate rape statistics. What is certain is that fewer men report it, which again is tied to both the sexism and toxic masculinity. If I had a penny for every time I heard/read someone claim that "men can't be raped," even here on this very site, I'd be a good deal richer than I am now. This is a claim I hear from women and men alike.

[DinaM]

"women are responsible for 80% of domestic spending (70% globally),"

Yes, but the thing is: they don't spend the money on themselves. Being the primary caretakers of their families, women spend 90% of their earned income on their families, while men spend only 30-40%. Women also make up 70% of unpaid carers for children and the elderly/disabled. Also, since women tend to get the bulk of domestic chores in households where both husband and wife are in full-time jobs. It varies from country to country, but there's no country where women do NOT do the most unpaid care work, which again leads to them having to spend more money.

A smaller, but annoying, factor is that "women's products" tend to cost more than their equivalent for men, and feminine hygiene products tend to be viewed as "luxury items" and get the resulting "luxury item tax." Ask any woman on her period whether she considers a tampon a luxury item, and I'm pretty sure I know what the answer will be.

[DinaM]

"63% of all college graduates are female and the number is growing, despite this women have vast amounts of resources available to them in the form of grants, scholarships and assistance programs for education, men have next to none in comparison (unless you count sports which makes the schools an incredible amount of money at the expense of the athletes physical well being (and they receive no money for it either))."

Actually, the number of scholarships specifically designed for women are only about four times larger than those designed for men. It's still a higher number, I'll grant, but this isn't really surprising considering that scholarships are traditionally meant to support those that have to face personal obstacles on their road towards a higher degree, and as such couldn't afford attending college. And women were, and still to some degree are, over-represented in that category.

[DinaM]

Studies have also shown that It was found that males who dropped out of college received almost the same as males that graduated early in their careers, while women who dropped out received $6,500 less than females who graduated. Thus, OSU researchers concluded that the degree meant more to these women. So, it’s not that women have a greater "advantage" in the higher education space–they’re fighting tooth and nail for that degree, and going into greater debt, because that diploma can mean a much higher starting salary for these women — moreso than for their male counterparts because of the nature of career opportunities available to women without an education as versus one with.

[DinaM]

"In the US it is illegal to circumcise a woman YET doing the very same thing (and yes, they do remove the same amount of tissue and they remove it for the same exact reason and no their is no medical benefit to it and in fact you have a higher probability of bleeding to death from the procedure then ever needing it for medical purposes (not to mention the risks of complete emasculation) to infant boys is perfectly legal and is so common 70% of the male population in the US is circumcised against their will."

Personally I think circumcision of ANY sex is barbaric and if I had my way it would be against the law, no matter if it's done to boys or girls. The amount of male circumcisions in the US is frankly shocking — I'm European, so it's less common here, but still.

[DinaM]

But your statement that they remove the same amount of tissue is blatantly false. Female circumcision does vary from culture to culture, only the hood of the clitoris may be removed, but usually the entire clitoris is removed, and the outer and inner vulva are removed too, leaving too small a hole, a huge number of stitches, and much pain and medical complications during recovery and even the rest of the girl's life, especially during childbirth.

[DinaM]

"In order to vote, get a license, get a state and federal grant or loan a male citizen is required to sign the selective service card agreeing that the government has the authority and right to conscript him at any time they feel its necessary. Women get all of those things by simply being born in the country meaning women have the right to vote and get a license etc. while men do not, we have to agree to a contract that could potentially result in us being sent off to die in order to get those things making it by definition a privilege. The list goes on."

Not being a US citizen, and frankly not having any desire to even visit the county, I will admit that my knowledge of this particular issue is limited. From what I've been able to find out, it's a holdover from an archaic mentality that believed women could not be capable soldiers.

[DinaM]

This has been proven so false since the all-volunteer force was instituted, as well in other countries, that selective service is clearly flawed from the beginning.

Besides, slave armies are nowhere near as good as professional armies, so the draft is a mistake anyway.

[DinaM]

Their is no evidence of anything that discriminates against women, except for when its beneficial (like how women get significantly lighter sentences (66% less then a man for the same crime) when sentenced at all. Or how according to the court ruling of Hermsmann vs seyer a man is always required to pay child support no matter the circumstances, in this case the man was a 12 year old boy who had to pay his babysitter who raped him).

That's the difference between the two of us. I acknowledge that discrimination goes both ways. I fully accept and understand that in some things women DO have a better deal than men do. You, however, seem blind to any discrimination or injustice that aren't against you.

Saying that there is no evidence is the equivalent of closing your eyes and going "LALALALALA I can't hear you," because evidence of discrimination against women is not hard to find.

[DinaM]

"Trying to dismiss the statistics does not alter the facts. Women are not suffering in any way shape or form in this society, they have more rights and privileges then any group has ever had and that is backed by statistical data and laws."

And there are as many statistical data and laws, on both national and worldwide basis, that prove discrimination against women, and the rights and privileges of men. Just because one group suffers from discrimination in one area, does not mean it is not privileged in others.

And so much of these privileges ARE inherently sexist in origin. Many, if not most, of your examples, are routed in one very simple idea: Men are tough, they can take it and don't need help. Women are fragile, they can't take it and need all the help. That's what I mean by "two sides of the same coin."

[DinaM]

"So I would argue that toxic feminity is when a woman claims to be a victim over and over again because she has been allowed to avoid responsibility for so long that she doesn't know how to stop being a victim and owning up to her actions. Its when a woman and spews out the most sexist things, like suggesting all men through out all of history (or near enough) oppressed, beat and treated women like objects (despite all evidence to the contrary) which is the assigning of a characteristic of an individual to a group i. e. guilt by association (and made up crime to begin with) which is by definition sexism. That's toxic femininity."

It's an interesting argument, but I'd say that unlike the classic "toxic masculinity" this type of behaviour is not intricately linked to what is traditionally considered feminine behaviour. Is it wrong, and sexist? No doubt. But it's not uniquely feminine.

[DinaM]

Take a gander at all the men who blame women for all that is wrong with the world, historically and contemporarily, and you might see that both sexes are guilty of this. One is as bad as the other.

You yourself are essentially blaming women for everything and holding men up as poor underprivileged victims, and you're not a woman.

"As for your claims of how men treat other men, no I have not seen that. "

Wow. You have either been EXTREMELY lucky, or not paid much attention.

[DinaM]

"{Long statement about the behaviour of men, cut for length]"

So now you're going the "We're MEN, we can't HELP ourselves" route. That's a CLASSIC example of toxic masculinity.

"That's how this works that's how toxic femininity works, its solipsism, its the hijacking of the womans natural tendency to prioritize self and turning it into such an extreme state that any and all empathy for others, specifically men, cannot exist. That's what your doing you claim victim hood but every single statistic shows the exact opposite,"

WOOOOOOOW. After multiple posts about how men are victims in everything and everything, you now try to claim that I'm, the one claiming victimhood in everything. Do you even see the irony here?

[DinaM]

"your every day interactions show that men pander to you not to men, it shows that the laws are all biased in your favor (that's why men only get equal or better custody of their children 44% of the time vs. a womans 96% of the time (statistically speaking). Its why women then claim its because he wasn't in the childs life, because you know he is expected to work all day and night to provide for her and the child he barely gets to see or she will divorce (again, statistically speaking)). Again, their is no argument against what I am saying, at least none that actually use facts."

Actually, I believe I have made several counterarguments, using facts and statistics. No doubt you will ignore them, claim I'm making them up, insist that I'm being sexist or toxic-feminine, whatever that means, and you will continue as you have, whining and complaining that men have it so hard and it's all women's fault because women get all advantages and no disadvantages.

[DinaM]

But that's you. I've made my arguments, and I'm not interested in trying to teach the wilfully blind to see. So — and I can already predict you are going to use this as anj example of how undreasonable, emotional and toxic women are — I am bowing out of this argument and out of talking to you altogether.

Consider yourself blocked.

[MzAsh]

I’m seeing it become more common for men to be unhealthily preoccupied with their masculinity, so I’d say yes even though the term has become cliche.

[hellionthesagereborn]

So you believe in toxic femininity?

[MzAsh]

Sure

[hellionthesagereborn]

What would it be? What are the traits that differentiate femininity vs. toxic femininity?

[MzAsh]

Here’s a pretty good article. goodmenproject.com/.../

[hellionthesagereborn]

That article has already shown a complete one sidedness thus far. So for the first comment she (because who better to talk about masculinity then a woman) made about the sex scandals I would ask if that is toxic masculinity what is it when women do the exact same thing (which they are as likely to do statistically speaking? Seems odd to equate that to a character trait of an entire gender if it is in fact something found in both genders (and only rarely). Second she mentions violence, half of women killed are from romantic partners, well yes because it is so incredibly rare for a woman to be killed to begin with (80% of all victims of violence are male and the more violent the crime the more likely it is a man who was the victim.) so that says absolutely nothing (and also ignores the extreme pandering our legal system has towards women making it impossible to tell how much violence they commit towards their spouses). The 1 in 5 statistic has been debunked more times then I can count.

[hellionthesagereborn]

The mass shootings statistic is probably true, men are more likely to commit violence outside of the home, but then women are 7x more likely to kill people with poison so again, that says absolutely nothing, its an intentional attempt to mislead by giving only half the information to establish her premise of males=bad. I also find it rather ironic that the term "toxic masculinity" was created by the very people who claim that gender is a social construct, seems rather contradictory. So far still haven't gotten to the toxic "femininity" parts. Wow. Just got to the part where she discusses so called "toxic femininity". Apparently toxic masculinity is violence and being a piece of shit human being, because penis, meanwhile toxic "femininity" is due to a cruel society that doesn't treat the woman well enough so she feels bad about herself i. e. everything bad a man does is his fault, everything bad a woman feels is also a mans fault and women inherently are better then men.

[hellionthesagereborn]

That's toxic femininity alright, but not in the way you or the writer thinks. Toxic femininity is the self obsession, the inability to actually look outside yourself to see that other people are, well, people. The solipsism that drives a woman to look at men as inherently bad, that's what feminism is and the root of "patriarchy" and "toxic masculinity" notions, the idea that women are more important and therefore anything and everything that she feels that is not comfortable to her must be some one elses fault BUT more importantly it is some one elses responsibility to deal with as this is a womans biological preset position. She prioritizes herself which is why when the titanic sanks it took with it 1358 men and 100 women, because those women could not jump onto a life boat while watching their husbands and fathers and brothers and sons die while thinking of them, they had to think of themselves

[hellionthesagereborn]

(from a survival perspective it makes sense (women are the determining factor for the speed of reproduction and the child is dependent upon them for several years (nursing), the problem comes when we don't acknowledge its existence and instead pander to women and tell them that they are perfect and all bad things come from the masculine and a womans only flaw is she doesn't praise herself enough (which is exactly what the author is stating). This self obsession is toxic femininity, the need to be praised for existing while berating men for existing. Look at her article, where in their did women get criticized? The only criticism was that women don't love themselves enough, in an article about toxic femininity, she spent half of it saying how bad men are and the other half talking about how women's only flaw is that they don't love and appreciate themselves more. Sounds an awful lot like narcissism to me. That's what toxic femininity is, prioritizationg of self over all else.

[MzAsh]

Prioritizing self is a must. It’s called self interest and it must be done before you care for others. We expect women to serve others and forget about self yet we forget to mention that’s what makes s man lose respect for a woman. The minute I stopped prioritizing others over myself was the moment I was better able to give to others and my life improved in all ways.

[hellionthesagereborn]

Exactly, toxic femininity. You state how its women that have to sacrifice, never mind that men still work more then women (statistically speaking), worker harder and more dangerous jobs in order to make enough money to then give it all over to the woman (which is why 80% of all domestic spending is done by women despite the fact that they produce (by choice mind you) less then half of all income generated. Its 70% globally), they work jobs they hate that damage their bodies (hence men being 98% of all workplace accidents and deaths), pay for dates (statisticaly men spend twice as much as women on holidays for gifts to their spouse. Also the fact that almost all women (yes I know your special and none of this applies to you (I'm inclined to believe its because you don't want to look to closely at yourself more then anything else)) want men to pay for dates and is why statistically if the man is not the primary bread winner he is far more likely to end up divorced by his wife.

[hellionthesagereborn]

All of which shows that women are absolutely selfless and never ever do ANYTHING wrong. Because only women self sacrifice (even though as I have pointed out men actually sacrifice far more then women do). Again, toxic femininity, its the "I'm perfect in all ways, in fact my greatest flaw is that I'm too perfect" mindset. You blame men for everything bad and the only criticism you can level at yourself and/or women is that your to perfect, to kind, to empathetic (never mind that you show no empathy towards men or women who are not inclined towards your world view). Their is a difference between self preservation and self interest and selfishness and solipsism, toxic femininity is the latter two.

[MzAsh]

I’m where exactly did I say anything about women having to sacrifice and men don’t?

[hellionthesagereborn]

In the link you gave as to explaining "toxic femininity", also the line, "We expect women to serve others and forget about self" which was your idea of toxic femininity (the equivalent of some one stating that their greatest flaw is that the are to generous (its absurd and narcissistic to make that claim)) it didn't include that as a trait of toxic masculinity thus heavily implying that men did not sacrifice (which of course we all know men do, and significantly more then women statistically speaking) and this was a trait unique to women otherwise that would also have been placed under "toxic masculinity". Again, you take all the bad and apply it to men, you then create martyr complex and attribute all of that to women and claim that's the toxic feminism, being to great to caring to wonderful that the world doesn't deserve it, that's toxic femininity oh but toxic masulcinity is when men are violent and worthless people. Its narcissism.

[MzAsh]

I don’t like to use the term “toxic masculinity” much but if I had to identify it I’d say it would be men such as the red pill, mgtow, MRA, return of kings, etc. These men admittedly and explicitly talk about trying to restore a stronger patriarchal society. They are overly consumed with their masculinity and plan to use their masculine identity to control women and demand female submission. Recent example: mattforney.com/make-western-women-feminine/

To me that’s a good example of extreme toxic male mentality. The truth is, I just don’t see the equivalent ideals in women. That isn’t to say that there aren’t shitty women, there are, but they aren’t actively trying to use their feminine identity for world domination like these guys are.

[hellionthesagereborn]

No they don't. That is a complete fabrication. MRA, MGTOW, and ROK are all different groups. ROK are pick up artists who have stated that women exploit men to the point where you might as well just use women for sex and not take the risk of getting married only to be divorced and have everything you have worked for taken from you (as well as your children). MGTOW wants to avoid marriage because of the rampant pandering the court system as well as society gives to women when it comes to divorce (women being far more likely to get a divorce and the only one to benefit from it), in some cases they do not wish to have ANY interactions with women as a woman can destroy a mans life with nothing but an anynonmous accusation so they want to keep their distance as its no longer worth interacting with women any more, far to detrimental to them. MRA's want the laws to change so they don't patently benefit women at the detriment of men (all of which is statistically provable).

[hellionthesagereborn]

At no point do any of them want a "patriarchal" society (not that we have had one anyway, at least not in the context you are trying to use the term). You are intentionally misrepresenting their arguments because you know as well as I do that they absolutely have a point. Now I may disagree with all of those groups on certain things, either the proper course of action (MRA's want gender neutrality, the thing that feminist claim they want but then actively oppose to their explicit benefit (again, readily provable (again, just look at your own stance, women are perpetual victims and men are perpetual oppressors, women are perfect men are violent and evil. Clearly your not of the mind that men and women are equal or that men and women can ever function as a group (which is ironic as we did so for almost all of our history before feminism intentionally distorted facts and brainwashed people)) gender neutrality however is not possible because of basic biology), or how they behave

[hellionthesagereborn]

(not playing the game while effective for self preservation does not actually fix the problem making MGTOW at best, a neutral force. ROK is as exploitive as feminist and is just as destructive. Sure their base premise is correct, thanks to feminism men are mistreated and exploited for the gain of women and women are very much now embolden to be the worse possible version of themselves as they can be and show absolutely no empathy towards men of any kind (again, as you have shown) and are only interested in their own standings and privileges (again, as you have shown with your constant dismissals and claims that some how everything bad is men's fault (yes you have made that statement, every time you blame "toxic masculinity" or "patriarchy" for mens' problems you are implicitly denying the culpability of women in how society functions despite the fact that women raise the children and choose who reproduces and thus arguably have greater influence over behavior then men do)

[hellionthesagereborn]

acting like them will not help and will only widen the gulf further by giving feminist a scape goat and potentially hurting good women who are not solipsistic thus punishing them for the wrongs other women have done.) However that doesn't mean they don't have points, nor does it mean I have to completely misrepresent them to justify bigotry, sexism, and what ever ideology I am beholden to, which coincidentally is exactly what your doing. You know that your not oppressed, you know men have less power then women, you know that women can be shitty human beings (because that is a trait of shitty people, not a trait of men) but you need to be right, you need to have the scape goat the excuses for your behavior and that's why you intentionally misrepresent these movements, both the men's one's and your own (feminism), and that's why you refuse to acknowledge the wrongs commited by women while over stating the wrongs commited by men. Otherwise you would have to admit that we are all people.

[MzAsh]

I’ve had several years of experience with all these crowds that there’s NO excuse for their behavior. They have come to MY blog and social media accounts to doxx and harass me which is the whole reason I even know who they are. They are different groups but the one thing I know for a fact that I know you’ll deny is that they are all male supremacy groups.

[MzAsh]

This thread is about toxic masculinity and you can’t help yourself but to turn it into a discussion about anti feminism which reminds me that we’ve had this exact same argument several months ago where you did the exact same thing. And I’ll tell you again as I told you back then, there are a hundred threads about anti feminism on here every day, but you are nowhere to be found on there. Very interesting.

[VegetaSSB]

Yes, it does, as much as toxic female behavior exists. The people that usually catter to toxic masculinity are those who were not very popular,, used to be bullied at school, are emotionally hurt and use the toxic masculine behavior to just try to elevate their social value in their social circle, but apparently cannot realise that this won´t work well and in their favor, but rather against them, usually people that display toxic masculinity need as much pschological help as the women that display toxic female behaviors, both probably have bad experiences, mainly in infancy and childhood involving the opposite sex and need therapeutic help to overcome the emotional trauma involved.

[bacca400]

SOME parts are toxic, things like the machismo that some people display. That does not mean all masculinity is toxic.

Crying here and there is fine. But crying too much can be dysfunctional and indicate other deeper problems. Since I used to be over sensitive, this caused me major problems. So I had to retrain myself to be more reasonable. It really helped my life a lot. Moderation is key here.

I wish I could use bold or italics here.

[madhatters4]

absolutely and men should work hard to overcome it. it is as detrimental to men if not more so then it is to others in society

[madhatters4]

*men and society should work hard to overcome it

[alice55]

No, to me it doesn't exist. Personally I always gotten along much better with men who followed the traditional concept of masculinity rather than the men who followed the "modern" one (the one feminist want men to follow).
Modern one have always being rude to me for no reason at all.

[hellionthesagereborn]

Masculinity built all of society, all technology, it has preserved our species both in the case of war and violence as well as in natural disasters and in the acquisition of resources that where needed to survive. It was the sacrifice of self so that others may live. So no, not only is it not toxic it is absolutely vital for masculinity to exist as it always has not in a "to keep society healthy" way, but in an "allowing society to exist" sort of way.

[Hannajenky]

There are toxic men but to try to define masculine behavior as toxic is not cool. People just need to be respectful

[Anonymous]

Not in the sense that it is meant.

Really there’s just a different flavors of asshole: toxicity manifesting in various ways.

Saying something is toxic masculinity is to couch it in terms misrepresent reality to push political agenda in opposition of helping people and solving problems.

[oftheHowl]

Everyone here should watch Tough Guise 2, it's free online

[A-man-22]

Masculinity is not toxic at all. I don't feel pressured to get a 6 pack , drive a fast car , grow a beard etc. It's the people who say it's toxic who are actually toxic.

[LokiWhite]

There can be honest and real pressure which leads to guys being idiots to try and seem manly, which is the motivation behind pretty much all street gangs. There's a reason they're all male.

[MelaninDoll]

Do y'all think toxic femininity exists?

[Agent]

You're toxic.

[MelaninDoll]

@Agent I've been called worse. I'm not the nicest person :/

[WrathXXI]

I think toxic femininity is just modern feminism as a whole.

[Agent]

@WrathXXI Considering toxic masculinity involves shaming other men for deviating from cultural expectations of males to such a degree that it's detrimental, toxic femininity would basically involve shaming females for deviating from cultural expectations of females. So shaming a girl for liking sports, sex etc. Most feminists are toxic in general, though. That's for sure.

[WrathXXI]

I guess I'm going to need examples as to what you mean by toxic masculinity.

[Agent]

@WrathXXI
"Haha, he's crying because his pet died. What a pussy!"
"He's wearing a pink shirt. What is he, gay? Let's shove him in his locker."
"He refused an offer for sex? What a nerd."

The whole idea of toxic masculinity is that men are shaming other men for not adhering to cultural standards of males that are perceived to be unfair because they're unrealistic.

[WrathXXI]

Sounds like boys pretending to be men without actually knowing what being a man is really about. That's not masculinity. That's stupidity.

[WrathXXI]

With that said, the guy with the dead pet should grieve, but only for an appropriate amount of time.

Frankly, I think any bright or flamboyant coloring or pattern is gay, but that's just me. No idea where the lockers come in, unless those are the new closets lol

I have refused sex on several occasions. Succumbing to your hormones isn't masculine at all. It's childish and foolish.

Perhaps the ones that should be teaching what masculinity is about should be those of us that are actual men lol

[hellionthesagereborn]

@Agent Is it detrimental? I mean you would have to show that its a detriment to shame some one before making that claim. In fact you would have to show that it was shaming to begin with. What about when women shame men for not crying or showing their emotions like women do, is that toxic femininity at work?

[mactallica]

I think toxic masculinity exists as much as toxic femininity

[WrathXXI]

Could someone please explain this concept of toxic masculinity?

[Anonymous]

No, its just a term to demonise masculinity, mainly used by people who want to stamp it out - feminists and effeminate men mainly.

[RedThread]

Yes. Masculinity in itself isn't toxic but there are forms that are toxic both for men and women.

[Unit1]

"Real men don't cry"

There you have it.
Need I say more?

[LadyAvon]

It's toxic when it hurts someone else whether the guy is aware of what he's doing or not.

[harabi]

You don't have to neglect your personal higyene or grunt like an animal to be a man.. :)

[JimRSmith]

Yeah, definitely

[jack187625]

In equal measures as toxic femininity surely?

[Steve37]

No more than toxic feminism.

[Wwwyzzerdd]

Wher r al da rel men?

[Anonymous]

I think toxic femininity is existing nowadays.

[imwithstupid]

masculinity is natural and should be embraced

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

I'm not sure what that really is.

[MarketData]

No, it's purely a feminist construct.

[ThePundertaker]

I don’t know
What is it?

[ultimega]

Yup it does

[ultimega]

Ahahaha!! Yes gimme your downvotes 😂😂😂

[hellionthesagereborn]

Is their toxic femininity?

[ultimega]

@hellionthesagereborn im sure there is also

[hellionthesagereborn]

What would that entail?

[Kriegg]

Nay i say!

[Decentguy]

yes it does exists

[Pineapple_Boy]

No it doesn't.

[inmensus]

Of course.

[dogfish]

um nope <3

[GayHowellMeme]

Not sure

[Seppelson]

Most male things are toxic

[MysticMac27]

Like what