Should we enact laws regarding lithium batteries to protect lives?

[lightbulb27]

It appears there are real hazards to lithium batteries in that they can catch fire, the fires burn very hot, are difficult to control requiring 1000's gallons of water and special equipment. Doesn't take much to have a damaged battery, faulty battery, charging issue, or low quality battery... igniting a fire.

Doing so in a house, condo, apartment where people sleep... results in deaths.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2022/03/02/electric-car-fire-risks-look-exaggerated-but-more-data-required-for-definitive-verdict/?sh=4bf6f2bf2327

Implicated in sinking a ship full of expensive cars... are they covering up the truth of the dangers of these batteries?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felicity_Ace

Issue with fumes from fires...

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-09784-z

As society forces more e-cars, and possibly only ecar sales (proposal in various states), it means more opportunity for problems.

It's probable that some people are going to suffer and die because of the hazards caused by lithium batteries. Enacting laws and controls can help mitigate such suffering.

For example:

* Do not park such cars inside garages. only outside.

Standards for quality and periodic testing of batteries

* Require fire departements to have tools and resources. May include requiring deeper retention ponds for more water, equipment purchases...

* insurance costs... you will be paying for all of this.

etc..

[NaultD]

Any energy is extremely dangerous. Like grain silos and fire. We eat grains because they have potential energy stored up ready to be unleashed. Eaten or uneaten.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/0k3fsPgRhJ0

with lithium At least compare it to gasoline that is just as deadly in just as situational situations.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/hNZy603as5w

Like all your listed examples we can just as ready to prepare for future developments of any kind.

You look like the horse breeder shaking fist at the first cars saying they will never replace me looking like an idiot today.

Maybe have a market in close tracks but day to day people will take the easiest path.

[FunkyMonkee]

What's a situational situation? I think I'm gonna have to report that to the Department Of Redundancy Dept.!!

[lightbulb27]

Answer Ignored my wuestion. Appears there are new and enhanced risks

[lightbulb27]

grain silos don't sit on trains or airplanes nor sink ships. you are saying no, but the arguments don't make sense to me. It's just a matter of having enough bad incidents to change your mind I suspect.

[Fireguy17]

It isn't the grain itself that is the issue, it is the grain dust that is very explosive and flammable.
That is nothing new.
There have been numerous grain silo explosions throughout the years.
Sadly, there have been many killed and injured related to those explosions.
Once the dust has been consumed in the explosion while the grain itself will burn but no longer explode, it can be extinguished by conventional means, usually taking a lot of time and energy. You have to spread it out and soak it down.
You are just going to be on scene for a while.

[AviatorTom]

Let's not get carried away. The chance of a lithium battery catching fire is about the same as a person getting struck by a car crossing the street... very low.

There are risks in everything we do. What's important, and critical, is that we manage risks, not fear them.

And please get your info correct. The ship full of cars off Brunswick GA sank because it was improperly loaded, and the ensuing fires were mainly the result of ruptured fuel tanks. Lithium batteries had nothing to do with it.

[lightbulb27]

To be clear, I hadn't heard a conclusion on that fire... thus I said "implicated". This ship was off Azores not GA.
www.thedrive.com/.../its-been-exactly-one-year-since-the-felicity-ace-caught-fire-with-nearly-4000-cars-onboard

Whether it started somewhere is one question, I've not found a clear answer of the cause... that they were implicated in fire getting so dificult is another. Note the comment about "some shippers no longer will ship EV cars". You can be assured they will be required to, but insurance rates will go up in shipping

Doesn't it make sense to put laws in place... before such disasters? Or should we wait until enough people suffer and die? Ex. A friend of mine uses electronic smoke thing... it shorted in his pocket and ignited... a huge fireball and 3rd degree burns. That happens in a car, or bus, or train, or plane... be bad for others. These are dangerous devices with new hazards.

People get hit by cars all the time. That's a good analogy. The issue though is when this happens inside a garage, you are looking at a family or others wiped out and difficult to contain... could take whole condo developments/apartments if attached.

More evidence: www.cnn.com/.../index.html

[DJB72]

Hopefully the hydrogen engine will be available soone at an affordable price. All you get burning hydrogen in air is water so I don't understand why the technology hasn't been used commercially instead of the environmental disaster of lithium cells. The battery itself may be ok, but the damage in the developing countries to mine the components is disgusting.

[Dargil]

I'm hopeful that electric cars will be a fad like the Hula Hoop. "Spectre" will use them to control people's movements. Maybe the fire risk will get them outlawed.

[lightbulb27]

I expect it's short term interim solution. makes little sense unless solid state changes the game.

[Fireguy17]

while they are a fire hazard, right now I have not seen any increase of calls generated from them, and we just haven't had many at all.
We have way more flammable liquid fires than we have ever had fires due to lith batteries.
Yes, they happen, yes, they are a pain like in electric vehicles, but we have special training and the tools to deal with them, so it is just another pain in the butt fire vs one with ordinary combustibles or a class A fire.

[lightbulb27]

is that within your area specifically or you mean as you look at fire departments openly?
Ex. www.cnn.com/.../index.html

maybe it just gets attention because it's new. I have not seen many gas fires although I assume they exist.
But we don't have that many e units yet...

So you do have the tools to deal with them? I wondered if all/most departments have these tools.

[Fireguy17]

usually if you can get access to the emergency disconnects that can stop or help stop it, or on EVs there are vent holes on the sides of the battery pack and you can use a ground monitor to direct water into those, having the knowledge of what to do is also probably the most useful tool of all.
Sometimes if they do not present a hazard to any exposures the decision to let them go is also an option.
They are gone/totaled by the time you receive the call, so what are you saving or trying to save? Isolate the area and watch any exposures. You will need around 8,000 gallons or more of water to control the issue, so in an area with hydrants no problem, if you are in a rural area, you will need a few tenders to respond as well.
Another thing is to even if you did get it to stop burning is to isolate it and follow the recovery vehicle because those fires are basically a runaway chain reaction.
Even if you have the fire under control it can start up again at any given moment. So most recovery companies will park them far away from anything else if they have the room, others do not want anything to do with them for that fact.
While yes it happens, and they get a lot of media attention it really isn't that frequent that it does happen.
As EVs become more and more popular I would expect to see the numbers trend up, yet our regular good old gas fueled vehicle fires remain fairly constant as far as numbers go, so would EVs numbers get to that point as well and level off, or would their numbers go even higher? Time will tell.
It is still a fairly new technology as compared to conventional fueled vehicles, but you are also comparing new technology to a much older tried and true technology.
Back in its infancy there were way more issues with fossil fueled vehicles than exist today.

[gorydetails]

Is there any aspect of the electric car push that isn't a complete sham?

[lightbulb27]

not sure...
I think they are good for the economy in that it seems to create jobs...

[gorydetails]

Are they, though?

[FunkyMonkee]

On top of that, when they are scrapped, the chemicals in them are bad for the environment!

[ChicoFromThe305]

I don't know about all that, as a car dude I'm just bias against battery cars, so you got my vote.

[Astarlessnightsky]

Everything has lithium batteries in it. You would have to ban technology itself.

[FunkyMonkee]

Several hundred pounds of batteries?

[lightbulb27]

Never said ban.

[lightbulb27]

not sure about ban, but control...
www.fda.gov/.../tips-help-avoid-vape-battery-or-fire-explosions

I don't like the idea of people exploding in fire next to me. happened to a friend...

[In_Trance]

No I don't think so.
Let the stupid people have at it and the problem will sort itself out

[OddBeMe]

Uhh already do. can't fly with them in your checked luggage. Gotta be in carry on. When your traveling with a Red Camera, the battery is about double the size.

[lightbulb27]

true, some laws... enough to mitigate risk? ugh... carry on e cigarette in luggage... how long til we have another value jet crash caused by e-cig shorting out. See these things go up in flames... it's ugy!
Note: Value jet caught fire and cashed in everglades.
e-cigs short out and make terrible fire:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR7_xwQbYp0
happened to a friend of mine. Wouldn't go well in back of airplane in luggage... agree?
If that's what is allowed.

[OddBeMe]

I have huuuge lith ion batts. Nothing happened yet. Maybe cuz I don’t suck on em like vapes.

[boobliker]

yes I think we should very soon.