Sorry…who thinks we don’t need Government?

[OddBeMe]

Regulations when you like them…anarchy when you don’t. Can’t work like that.

Severe what! Severe what!!!

I still hate govt

Ehh govt not so bad

[monorprise]

Government laws & regulations did nothing to stop Boeing or it's subsidiaries from delivering defective aircraft.

In fact the same regulations had A LOT to do with it in preventing any real competition with Boeing to gain from Boeing's poor management culture and choices. Which otherwise would have driven the company out of business or into reform several decades ago.

You might have noticed that Boeing doesn't make cheap aircraft or spaceships nor does it do it quickly. The modern Boeing company is very much a Government enterprise built around chasing contracts with politically distributed manufacturing and policies to appeal to the politicians who issue said contracts.

This causes Boeing Jets just like her space craft to cost astronomically more than they should and take forever to develop. It also forced Boeing to put far too large a set of engines on the 737 for "efficiency" reasons rather than simply build a new plane. As well as out-souse the software to an ill-prepared Indian team (for political favors ) who screwed it up.

News Flash Boeing is basically a goverment sponsored and protected enterprise at this point, has been for decades.

[OddBeMe]

True current regs allowed Boeing to hire FAA regulator…which is quite a conflict of interest. What could fix all this tho…. uhg!

[monorprise]

@OddBeMe
Go ahead and try applying for a job at Boeing or any such company and you will find there already are such rules. Notice how Boeing is currently moving its headquarters to Washington D. C. and how it builds its is facilities distributed across congressional districts just like NASA and other goverment agencies?

Boeing is doing exactly what it was paid to do to buy votes. This isn't simply a matter of regulation capture this is a matter of lack of open debate and congressional accountability to the issue. Put simply congress spends little to no time debating and running for election on the cost of their numerous procurement and regulations.

Companies like Boeing and countless others are simply doing what congress pays them to do which is anther reason you will never legislate yourself out of this issue. The legislators are themselfs a major part of the problem.

[OddBeMe]

All true. How to fix it…

Outlaw money in politics.

[monorprise]

@OddBeMe That is impossible, If Every company including Boeing can get around existing rules by simply doing it in a different way. Your political leaders who make the rules would likewise make and fail to enforce countless exceptions.

You hold politicians accountable only with other politicians and at the federal level given there is no organization of higher level separate & competing politicians able to investigate and prostitute that requires public and open debate of every issue by competing politicians within said system.

Which is of course precisely what congress no longer has any time to do in regard toe very issue such a large and complex goverment runs.

So no what you propose is absurd and would lead to even greater levels of corruption at such a level because nobody has both time and power to watch the watchers there. Instead such finance rules would be selectively applied to rivals, while those in power would have other channels which simply are not looked at or prosecuted.

You know precisely what regularly already happens in regard to every other crime.

[Juxtapose]

^^ this 💯

[DrPepper12]

So the answer is transparency via more govt oversight

[monorprise]

@DrPepper12 Yes, and because we have too many things in the way every election we really have no transparency at all lost in front. This is not only true for our congressmen but we the people every election.

[OddBeMe]

And how do we ensure transparency? This century already saw a huge recession, pandemic and banks laundering money for Iran, Cartels and NK at the same time.

[monorprise]

@OddBeMe Every period of time has issues that we are involved in soo many is only a reflection of our involvement around the world and our awareness due to global commutations.
In reality this awareness is only a very small and highly selective tip of an iceberg of whats really going on.
Which is why your schemes built around trying to order and control everything keep failing because you really know about only a cherry picked fraction of it. A problem that will only get worse with time as the world becomes more complex and our ability to see ever larger parts of it does.

In reality you need only focus on what you personal need and what directly effects you in aggregate. You are incapable of dealing with a world of issues about which you know only what you are told or find viva inquiry which is to say if your not there in person almost nothing.

So you need to focus on what you can see in person and tell others what you need elsewhere via the mechanism of price. Let them sort our the relative cost of whether or how to get it to you with respect to their needs.

If you want to watch the big players who are really taking a loss to try and corner said market with false signals fine. But there are and can be by nature few such players otherwise anther one would be around to un-corrner it. Just like you having the freedom to vote with your feet keeps even the goverment monopoly in check over time.

This is how you manage the unmanageable and the unknown via simple commutation with those around you of what you need so that you might all order yourselves.

[msc545]

No, no. We must leave it all to private industry because they care so much about public welfare...

[OddBeMe]

Clearly…the all powerful free market will self regulate. (Buying fallout shelter)….

[msc545]

Oh yes, the free market solves all problems almost immediately and is the ultimate solution to every problem you can think of.

[msc545]

thanks for MHO

[Redstang88]

I don’t think many people are advocating for NO government, just less

[OddBeMe]

What’s less? Just one whistleblower dying mysteriously?

[monorprise]

@OddBeMe That is an issue for the State of South Carolina to investigate like any other potential murder.
The real problem with Boeing is the fact that the company has no real domestic competition precisely because the Federal regulations are soo onerous and costly to comply with in money & time that no new company can afford it.

The fact that Boeing had a cozy relationships with the same goverment regulators built up over the last 80+ years also helped them to suppress domestic competition and get approval for mergers with their former rivals.
You might recall the drama and discrimination SpaceX faced just to get approval to fly. Their rockets also cost a fraction of what Boeing requires and are delivered in a fraction of the time too.

Boeing rockets were likewise build to political specifications rather than build a new rocket, thus again demonstrating what Boeing today is, a goverment enterprise.

As a result like it or not we will still be flying the 737 because the only alternative is Airbus a company which is even more in the pockets of European governments. So Boeing's need to reform is more about image than their fate as a company.

[OddBeMe]

@monorprise all true. FAA allows aircraft companies to hire and manage their own FAA regulators. Lol

Wonder why though…. think it’s because we’re starving the govt?

[monorprise]

@OddBeMe You can't legislate your way out of a enforcement issue. Tell companies they can't hire former regulators or anyone who might have authority over them and they will just use yet more ways around that.

Indeed this is already the rule with Boeing as anyone who has ever applied for a job at Boeing knows this is one of the questions they ask everyone. Clearly it never made a difference, which is why any future rule you might impose will never make a difference either.

The problem of course is neither side wants this enforced, and nobody who does (the people) has any real way to even know about such abuses even if we did have a means to handle it at the federal level.
Congress is always far too busy with far too many responsibility to bother keeping tract of such contracting issues.

[OddBeMe]

@monorprise laws are what enforce us. And laws are legislation. So you’re actually 180 degrees wrong. I agree that we shouldn’t drown in legislation. But you know, fixing where the FAA regulator is employed should be an easy one.

[monorprise]

@OddBeMe No its not. Lets game this out. Say we passed a law that said nobody who was ever an FAA regulator or any other position of power can ever again work for the companies being regulated.

Well that doesn't prevent favors to their families, Jobs in unrelated companies, future bribes, favorable stock information, all of which can be made available at any future date with no clear way to know how they or those they care about got it.

Say you try and outlaw all of that too, well now the job of regulator has basically shut down the freedom of the employees entire family and put them in a life of surveillance and reduced economic prospects. Setting aside such a condition would likely be unconstitutional and realistically unenforceable. It would also make it very difficult to find anywhere near enough such regulators to do the job.

But lets say you got magic powers and you can make all that work fairly regardless. Well you still got a problem with the politicians making and updating such laws. Even if you could ever get them to pass a perfectly effective and clean such law. You would never get them to avoid corrupting it again.

Any effort to do so would but those same politic-ans in that same oppressive boat which they likewise would be very unlikely to maintain for themselfs and their families.

Indeed the vast surveillance and police state required to enforce the same against said politician would be irresistible source of abuse by their in-power rivals of the same.

So no it can't be done at the federal level.

[Juxtapose]

@monorprise yeah it makes me wonder how people expect this shit to be done especially at such a high level.

[OddBeMe]

@monorprise that’s not the issue. FAA currently allows Boeing and others to employ FAA regulators for the FAA to rely on.

Not saying former FAA staff can’t go private. Just saying they can’t be regulators paid by who they regulate.

[Redstang88]

“Just saying they can’t be regulators paid by who they regulate”
Except that’s EXACTLY how the government operates 🤷‍♂️

[OddBeMe]

No, government operates off taxes paid mostly by you and me.

[Redstang88]

Who they’re supposed to be accountable to, but the meaning of public servant was forgotten long ago

[OddBeMe]

I’m sorry you feel that way. It’d would be easy to take back power in the US by overturning Citizens United and instituting FEC regs against dark money. Which political party has that as a platform?

[Juxtapose]

Yeah you had your Bernie Sanders and look what happened to him. Do you think Hillary Clinton would overturn citizens United and institute FEC regulations against dark money when she benefits from it so much?

[Juxtapose]

She's like a female Mitt Romney, she's a total piece of shit.

[OddBeMe]

@Juxtapose again…which political party has that as a platform?
thehill.com/.../

[monorprise]

@OddBeMe Its been illegal and banned to accept payments from people you do business with for a very long time in every federal, state and company that does business with the same.

This was true of congressmen too although obviously to a far lesser degree. Take a job in one of these sectors your proposing policies that have long been in place. This is how i can tell you they don't work. Businesses and regulators can just get around them like politicians who also famously make themselfs exceptions to the same.

There are countless ways to enrich or reward someone few of them are easily traceable. Your federal politicians don't end up as multi-millionaires on goverment salaries living in one of the most expensive places on Earth (Washington D. C.) by accident.

Likewise theses policies do no work and never will at that level because there is nobody who will and can watch the watchers. It doesn't matter what laws you pass.

[monorprise]

@OddBeMe Ultimatly all Taxes are paid by the people, the one ones who do any work with which to pay them. Whether or not they are collected from the same is a different question. On that question most governments tend to prefer to have to collect taxes from as few people as possible for practical reasons.

[monorprise]

@OddBeMe Once again you can't control money like that, particularly in politics. The best you could do practically speaking is try to control the politicians running in disallowing them to spend any money beyond X amount from the State.

But that would do nothing for everyone else's behavior who formally support the same politician, try to shut that down and your back to a police state selectively playing wack-a-mole at the direction of the currently in-power politicians. Which of course is just asking for a uni-party at best.

[DrPepper12]

Not only is it NOT bad it is a necessary force for good. Capitalism is the BEST economic system ever devised but needs monitoring and intervention; that's where government comes in.

[OtterMan68]

so you think that without regulations, planes would just start dropping from the skies? Would Boeing survive as a company if no one would trust their planes, and the survivors and relatives of the deceased after accidents were constantly suing them?

[OddBeMe]

You think without a regulator or NTSB Boeing would be safe at all?

[OtterMan68]

read what I said above. Boeing would be out of business very quickly if they made unsafe planes

[OddBeMe]

How would we know a crash was Boeings fault without regulators? Boeing could lie with impunity.

[OtterMan68]

I think the airlines and insurance companies would just love to know who was at fault, but that's jut me

[OddBeMe]

I think there can be a balance in business and govt. But just like the insurance co’s not wanting to pay death claims. Boeing wouldn’t want to be blamed. How do we keep them from conspiring! Uhg! If there was only some public apparatus, voted in by the people!

[Juxtapose]

You say that as if these companies can't just buy the government like they already have..

[OtterMan68]

a plane crashes, and no one gets found at fault without gov?

[OddBeMe]

I’m saying government is the easiest and most effective way. Feel free to suggest otherwise. 2007 recession shows self regulation doesn’t work.

[OtterMan68]

Underwriter's Laboratory
Consumer Reports

[OddBeMe]

Where were they in 2007?

[OddBeMe]

Oh taking ad money from corporations.

[jshm2]

That's not actually a part of needing government, sunny,

Boeing did those things for profit - not to get back at government.

[gorydetails]

How has the government prevented Boeing from murdering these whistleblowers, exactly?

[OddBeMe]

So you’re saying every crime is the government’s fault for not handling first? How would that work exactly?

[gorydetails]

you’re claiming we need government to prevent this shit from happening. I’m demonstrating to your smooth brain that they were completely ineffective.

[OddBeMe]

You say completely ineffective living in your low crime neighborhood in whatever cardboard box. But yes, state and city govt…is still govt.

[Juxtapose]

Yeah if anything the government changing its standards with this DEI nonsense is making things less safe.

[gorydetails]

I live in a low crime neighborhood because of the caliber of people living here, not because of police.

[Juxtapose]

Yep, if the crime gets bad enough the police won't even enforce the laws in the area. Cops aren't as useful as people think they are, it's the illusion of safety they provide that is most useful.

[Juxtapose]

Without that illusion? People will be emboldened to be bandits.

[OddBeMe]

@gorydetails So you want to defund the police?

[gorydetails]

Where did I say that? They're needed in the cities run by your political party to try to keep the animals in line.

[KrakenAttackin]

The problem with Boeing is that government FAILED. The FAA allowed Boeing to "self certify" on many, many, issues. Government was not doing it's job.

[dustybiker2]

Sounds like an X-File.