Should we admit the War on Drugs has failed and just legalize everything?

[OtterMan68]

Yes, treat street drugs like alcohol and tobacco: get it out of the hands of the black-market gangs and cartels

No, we can eventually stop trafficking in illegal drugs with more effective law enforcement and education policies

Other (I'll explain below)

Updates

1 y

please explain your vote

[pergamon300]

When you say it failed, are you able to give a definition of failed?

Is your version of success, perhaps almost 0 cases of drug use? That'd like saying that the war on murder has failed, and it should be legalized, because people commit a lot of murder here in the US, anyway. If you were to legalize murder, the murder rate would increase 10 fold. Meaning that the war on murder is in fact partially effective.

Same with drugs. It has began to be less effective for several reasons, which include lax policing and softening of laws. However if it was legalized, which it already has in some states, the drug use would slowly increase significantly. Colorado which legalized marijuana use, found in a space of a few years, the rate of emissions to the Emergency Department due to marijuana induced psychosis increased 5 fold. Motor vehicle crashes involving stoned drivers have doubled in Colorado since 2014.

Also in the past, I've lived in areas with drug users, as that's all I could once afford. The thought of ''It's their choice to take drugs, so let them'', begins to go away as they cause problems, commit crime, sometimes lash out at random people for no reason, other than the fact that they're high as a kite, demand money from people because they're broke and living on the street. And they devalue an area significantly, as most don't want to live around them, where they've set up their tents, and turn the area into trash.

There's many reasons, but we can start with giving the death penalty to drug dealers. Because once these dealers get people hooked, I've seen many of the hooked people are as good as dead themselves, with no chance in life. I have 9 sympathy for dealers.

[OtterMan68]

it's failed because it's been going on since the Nixon administration and illegal drugs are still prevelant. Go to any state where pot is still illegal, for example, the majority of teens regardless of whether or not they smoke pot could probably tell you where to score. We still spend billions every year on the war on drugs: locking up drug users, drug dealers, manufacturers, growers, etc. There are still violent gangs controlling the trafficking of some of these drugs. Then there's the fentanyl crisis.

[pergamon300]

Many teens smoke pot?
Again, legalize these drugs and many more will do so. That's exactly what happened in Portugal.
Teens using drugs doubled when they decriminalized it.
Gangs are often allowed to go about their business in many hoods with out much interuption. Start exceuting drug dealers, and watch the numbers start sliding.
There's a fentanyl crises? Decriminalize it, and watch it get far worse. Execute these drug dealers and itll start sliding.

[OtterMan68]

what happened in Portugal isn't that cut and dry.
knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/.../
Attacking supply does not work. Didn't work with alcohol. If it did, we could drastically cut gun crime by banning guns.

[pergamon300]

The article on Portugal seems to be more about rehabilitating users. While im not against that, the focus should be on preventing it in the first place. Decriminalization does increase its use in the first place. Why let your more of your population get hooked in the first place, only to then spent endless money to have to try rehabilitate them.

As for prohobition.
It was hardly a "war on alcohol". It wasn't illegal to consume. Just to make or sell it. And despite this, alcohol consumption dropped to as low as an estimated 30%, to pre probition levels, despite it being only illegal to sell/make rather than consume. So despite this soft "war", it still did actually have an effect on alcohol consumption.

[OtterMan68]

Portugal had a lower rate of addiction than other European countries. They cut funding, and the rate when up, but never above the EU average

[pergamon300]

I get ya, but was referring to people taking it in the first place. :)

[Anonymous]

The "war on drugs" was never intended to be successful. Same thing with the "war on poverty", and basically any govt program starting out with the words "war on...

[avery58]

The so called war on drugs was fake anyway. No, but weed should be legalized.

[FunkyMonkee]

There IS NO war on drugs!! It's a farce!! How can you fight drugs when the people running the countries involved in drugs are the ones pushing them? Our military is guarding foreign poppy fields so more heroine can be brought into the country! Bill Clinton, according to his own brother, has a nose like a vacuum cleaner!! Barry Soetoro is a huge coke fiend, too!! Now, we have "open borders" Biden allowing everybody and their brother to bring all the drugs they want into the country!!
There's no more a war on drugs than there is on ants crawling through the grass!!

[Haraklus]

I used to think that we needed to reverse course on the war on drugs, until I lived in a city that did so. It was an absolute horror show. I'm quite happy to be keeping most of that stuff off the streets. Although we should probably legalize a few things like psychedelics that have very low rates of harm and often have therapeutic benefits.

[shortster]

Drug prohibition worked just like alcohol prohibition. No decrease in usage, more toxic alternatives, and an increasingly violent black market. We should legalize all drugs. Nevermind the drug scheduling makes zero sense. Heroin is 2-3 times more potent than morphine and is schedule 1; fentanyl is 100 times more potent than morphine and is schedule 2. Kratom whose active ingredients are mitragynine (comparable to heroin) and hydroxy mitragynine (comparable to fentanyl) is unscheduled.

[gorydetails]

If you want the entire country to look like this, sure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iSkKkzabnM

[Juxtapose]

I'm not comfortable with the government telling me what I can or cannot put my own body, especially in the privacy of my own home.

[gorydetails]

@Juxtapose I understand that. But our government does not take care of people who are drug addicted and provide support and treatment. So you will end up with a country full of junkies.

[Juxtapose]

The people were stupid enough to do it to themselves and I'm not a big fan of bailing people out of self-inflicted scenarios. Why is it the government's job to take care of grown ass adults who should know better?

People should be free to make choices and live with the consequences. If they don't get bailed out of every little mistake, maybe they'll be more careful.

[gorydetails]

@Juxtapose But you are bailing them out. You're paying for their food, their shelter, their free cell phones.

[Juxtapose]

The heck you mean? The same prisons where you get your food stolen, your ass taken, your cell filled with fecal matter and barely enough time to talk to anyone on that outside world who has a shred of sanity?

[gorydetails]

@Juxtapose those people on the streets in Philadalphia - drug addicted zombies - are living off your tax dollars.

[Juxtapose]

Bitch to the progressives about that, not me. I didn't vote for that shit.

[gorydetails]

@Juxtapose I never said you did. But the reality is that you are paying for it. And absolutely zero chance of that going away.

[Juxtapose]

I'm not the type of person to excuse something just because things are hard. I am sure North Koreans pat each other on the shoulder and say that there is zero chance of changing their dictatorship.

Fuck that weak shit.

[gorydetails]

@Juxtapose ok, name me one politician that's come out against subsidizing drug addicts that is in office today. Show me one bill introduced in the past 10 years that's done so. I mean you can continue to live in la la land, but I prefer reality.

[OtterMan68]

so you're saying if drugs were legal, more people would want to do heroin, fentanyl, crack, etc? The only thing stopping them right now is that the drugs are illegal?

[gorydetails]

@OtterMan68 100% if drugs were legal there would be a portion of individuals who would try them because they are now legal. To say there wouldn't be is idiotic.

[OtterMan68]

but does that outweigh all the drawbacks from the trade being controlled by the black market gangs and cartels?
I think the number of people who would try heroin if it were legal is very small.

[gorydetails]

Maybe if you lefties secured the border better there wouldn't be so many illegal drugs streaming over the border.

Allowing free access to drugs with no support system to get people off drugs is a recipe for disaster.

[OtterMan68]

most drugs coming into the country are coming in through ports of entry. We tried to get people to stop using alcohol by targeting supply. It worked for a little while until the black market stepped in to replace the legal market.
If there is a demand, someone will provide the supply. The cartels aren't on the streets of the US putting guns to people's head an forcing them to do heroin and fentanyl.

[gorydetails]

The cartels are overtaking the national parks to grow weed.

[OtterMan68]

gee, and is weed legal all over the US?

[pergamon300]

According to the US government's own website, most drugs in the US, comes from the Southern border.

[OtterMan68]

@pergamon300 true, at ports of entry
Close to 90% of that fentanyl is seized at ports of entry.

[gorydetails]

@OtterMan68 Irrelevant. The fact remains that the federal government allows invaders to confiscate land owned by the citizens of the US.

[OtterMan68]

it's not. How many moonshiners have confiscated US land? And if the US is allowing it, that means the are not prosecuting anyone found doing it. Do you have proof they are finding people growing pot on federal lands and they are just "allowing" them to do it?

[gorydetails]

If you think it's ok for drugs to be legalized, then moonshine should also.

[OtterMan68]

alcohol is legal, and you can make moonshine in your home. The reason there aren't cartels shooting at each other over who controls the alcohol turf or people on street corners selling alcohol is that's it's legal

[gorydetails]

Listen. I get the theoretical arguments to make drugs legal. But even Portland has rolled back some of the legal status as they're creating more and more addicts. Without a shift in American culture, good resources to help people beat addition, you're looking at a recipe for disaster by just carte blanche making them legal.

That's not to say that our current drug policies aren't fucked... but we're not quite ready for full legalization of everything.

[OtterMan68]

Portugal was a success until they cut treatment and education funding, and the problem with Portland is that the drugs the users were hooked on where not regulated and manufactured by pharmaceutical companies, but drugs made by cartels who don't care about the quality or even safety of their products. It would be like a city trying to ban guns while the state it was in little less the rest of the country still had lots of guns for sale.

[gorydetails]

And what did I say in my response? The US is not equipped for education and treatment. Plus we have this awful culture currently.

[Juxtapose]

Actually the principal of the freedom of the matter is more important than the consequences. Let me explain.

What are the ramifications of the government being able to tell you what you can or cannot put in your body in the privacy of your own home while you are not around children?

The ramifications are simple, you are property.

I would rather not be property, even if that means a whole bunch of people making a bunch of stupid choices because they are too dumb to handle adult responsibility.

[Juxtapose]

Other people fucking up should not impact my freedoms in the slightest. No emergency, no crisis should get in the way of my sovereignty.

[gorydetails]

@Juxtapose We have an obligation to keep a civilization together.

[Juxtapose]

Not through tyranny. Bodily autonomy is non-negotiable.

[Juxtapose]

I am an adult and the government does not own me. Let me make my own choices as long as I am not endangering other people.

[pergamon300]

Thatd be all good if that was the reality. Except these drug users and dealers do affect others. Many become hooked on drugs, often homeless, start tent cities, destroying the neighbourhood and turn it into trash with literal trash everywhere, many can be found passed out on the street, with syringes sticking out of them, they demand money from people yelling or assaulting people at random because they're high, therefore I'd say what they do, does often effect others. Therefore the notion of "me taking drugs doesn't effect others and its muh freedoms" has well and truly being shown up as wrong.

[RedInnocent69]

No, but we should probably decriminalize a lot more, stop cluttering up the courts with potheads and focus on dealers.

[jahaims]

There is too much money in the prison system for that to happen

[exitseven]

No, we already have a nation of zombies with just pot being legalized.

[SotiCoto]

Legalise drugs and murder at least. Best not legalise rape.

[Anonymous]

Let's legalize rape too because we can't stop that happening either.

[OtterMan68]

That's not a victimless crime.