Should "due process" apply to American citizens or just gang members in the country illegally?

[OldBlu]

[abc3643]

In the United States, all humans are entitled to due process although it may be temporarily suspended during times of martial law (*).

Here is "due process" in the US Constitution:

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Here's the gist of the 5th Amendment:

No person shall be screwed over by government without due process of law.

Amendment XIV
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Here's the gist of the 14th Amendment regarding due process:

No person shall be screwed over by state government without due process of law and the laws apply equally to everyone.

>>>>>>>>> THIS IS WHY, IF YOU ARE AN American, YOU SHOULD BE HAPPY TO LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES. THE GOVERNMENT CAN'T FUCK YOU WITHOUT YOU HAVING AN ABILITY TO DEFEND YOURSELF AND THEY MUST PROVE WHY THEY SHOULD FUCK YOU OVER.

That's what due process is all about, Charlie Brown.

========================

(*) More about martial law...

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/martial-law-united-states-its-meaning-its-history-and-why-president-cant

[grega239]

Only citizens.

[OldBlu]

I agree.

[DrPepper12]

I don't. Constitution says I'm right

[grega239]

@DrPepper12 does it?
If someone is in the country illegally, why waste time and money on due process if you already know they shouldn't be here.

Deport them post haste

[OldBlu]

The Democrats love that due process because they give you a court date for 8 years from now and by then you'll slip between the cracks and vote for them.

[Screenwriter]

According to our Constitution, due process applies to anyone here, despite their being here illegally. They deserve a day in court and representation.

I have no problem with this, even when it appears they seem to be associated with gangs.

You realize, many people in America have been associated with gangs, get out of the gangs and try to get away from them, but their former association damns them.

These former associates may have been threatened, that if they left, they would be killed or family members would be killed.

This is happening TODAY in the Sudan. Why wouldn't it be happening in South and Central America where there is more desperation, poverty and gang violence?

The majority of these folk will be deported, with or without representation. But allow the few who might be innocent to stay and become citizens, eventually.

Think of this, if you were facing poverty, gang violence, lack of employment, what would you do, where would you go to escape these? How would you choose to survive?

[OldBlu]

You missed my entire point.

[Screenwriter]

Due process always applies to our citizens. But it also applies to others in this country simply because they're here.

Your point being foreigners here illegally get better legal opportunity here than they would in their homelands. . Yes. You're right about that.

But they don't get better legal treatment than American citizens. The likelihood that any of these gang people will stay here is miniscule. But they have to have the opportunity, because that's our system.

And another point you might be making is that our legal system favors the wealthy over people of color and the poor. I doubt the suspected gangsters have deep pockets or some fairy godfathers supplying them with legal aid and a case to prove they aren't involved with the gangs they're associated with.

[Avicenna]

Can you show me where in the Constitution it says that people accused of a civil crime get representation paid by the government? You are aware that deportation isn’t a criminal process, right?

[NoDecision]

And they went to prison, right? That is until Trump pardoned them, just like Biden pardoned his Felon son.

[OldBlu]

Yes that's correct they needed to get rid of the witnesses so they through them in the dungeon.

[DrPepper12]

Huh?

[Avicenna]

Democrats have a bad habit of trying to give groups of people they like „rights“ that have no basis in law and they like to deprive people they don’t like of their rights, where possible.

In the case of the illegal gangbangers, all of whom the Democrats let into the country in violation of federal law, the Democrats want to gaslight us into believing the illegals have the rights of ordinary criminal defendants, to include lawyers paid for by the governments. Illegals have no such rights regarding deportation, which is a civil offense. The courts can’t be allowed to be deliberately clogged by treasonous Democrats attempting to prevent deportation of even the worst violent criminals.

Democrats have waved and even flown in tens of millions of illegals. Now, when it comes to deportation, they want to invent rights and have them scrupulously observed when they’ve never followed the law when it comes to illegal entry. Utter BS.

The Democrats should be put on trial for this treason.

[OldBlu]

THIS!

[Avicenna]

This should be required reading for the idiots who think illegals must be treated like criminal defendants:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1227

[Sachem]

The Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments explicitly state that ALL PERSONS are to be given due process and equal protection:

No person shall be... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law

nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Sending people overseas without due process is a violation of the Constitution. Therefore, tRump has committed an impeachable offense. But Congress lacks the integrity and guts to do it.

[Luopio27]

The entire court system is a joke. To get a fair chance you need shitloads of money and dam good lawyers.

Justice is not something anyone should pay for! Paid justice is just neglecting business!

[OldBlu]

Were the January 6 people giving due process?

[Sachem]

Yes, they were put on trial with over 100 rendering guilty pleas.

[OldBlu]

And what about the other 1,300?

[Sachem]

The other 1300 had their day in court with their appeals upheld in appellate courts. This means due process was rendered.

[DrPepper12]

@Luopio27 I'll take THIS joke over any other. It's imperfect but don't let great be the enemy of good!

[DrPepper12]

OMG 😳😳😳 YES!!!

[Avicenna]

Let me get this right, @Sachem- you’re claiming that deporting people who are in the US illegally unless they are given the rights of defendants in criminal cases is a violation of their constitutional rights?

You do know that deportees are not criminal defendants, right?

[Avicenna]

One other thing- you do admit that there is no right for a person to enter and remain in the US illegally, right? You do admit that immigration officers have the right to deny entry to anyone, depending on circumstances, right?

[Avicenna]

Since no leftist who supports the illegal gangbangers knows what they're talking about, here is the relevant federal law on deportation:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1227

[DrPepper12]

Cornell is the Deep State @Avicenna. Nice try!

[RavVid]

Well my country (Australia) has the standard of flying out our illegals to Nauru overnight the moment they put ugly footprints on our pristine northern beaches. Nauru is an idyllic Pacific Island where our asylum processing center is and a conveniently close 6-7000 KM away.

We find it best not to trouble them with lawyers. They are encouraged to fill in asylum claim forms and join the humanitarian program ( at the bottom of course cause that is where new claims go).

Then their asylum claim is investigated but before that can happen they need to establish the citizenship they are fleeing from. Often their documentation has gone missing so we help them to obtain copies from their home gov't. After that the veracity of their asylum claim can be investigated in accordance to UN standards.

They absolutely get due process and encouragement the whole way to verifiable standards.

Don't see why the US can't do something just as efficiently as we do.

[DrPepper12]

Cuz it's a MAGA ruse for rubes

[blueonblack22]

All the January 6th rioters had the book thrown at them for what was ultimately a stupid and embarrassing incident that lasted just three hours.

Now, I know Trump ended up pardoning them all. While I agree that was justified for non-violent offenders, I also believe that if you assault a police officer—regardless of your political ideology—you should serve the maximum prison sentence.

With that said, I’m beyond sick of the disgusting hypocrisy from the left (and our pathetic mass media) pretending they suddenly hold the moral high ground. The 2020 BLM riots caused over $2 billion in property damage and led to the deaths of more than 30 people. Many of those rioters were never even charged. But let’s conveniently sweep that all under the rug and pretend that everybody forgot about that. Right @Oldblu?

[contentious]

Not really sure why the Vandal Kingdom is all that important either... They were a bunch of Arian heretics... I'd say “due process of law” should be part of any proceeding that denies a citizen “life, liberty or property”. illegals aren't citizens. Deporting them do not deny them life, liberty, or property. It just relocated them to their home country. Due process doesn't apply in that circumstance.

That said, these guys aren't exactly high on the list of excellent citizens either...

https://www.youtube.com/embed/ksfGtgmjWcM

[contentious]

*does

[DrPepper12]

Constitution sex ur wrong

[contentious]

Fourteenth Amendment, Section 1:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State "deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

[contentious]

Due process of law is application by the state of all legal rules and principles pertaining to a case so all legal rights that are owed to a person are respected. If you don't seize their property, execute them to take their life, or imprison them in an American jail to take their liberty for example then you are not calling upon due process for "Persons" specifically.

Under the Constitution "Citizens" have more legal rights that are owed to them and more strict legal rules that are applied to them than "Persons". In order to be a "Citizen" we see this language

All "Persons" "Born" or "Naturalized" in the United States, AND "Subject" to the jurisdiction thereof, are "Citizens" of the United States AND of the "State" wherein they "Reside".

Which specifically speaks to being a Subject of a State which is the legal Sovereign within the union bound by the contract of the constitution. The State maintains it's Sovereignty under the 10th Amendment.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

State: The political system of a body of people who are politically organized, the system of rules by which jurisdiction and authority are exercised over such a body of people.

Subject: One who owes allegiance to a Sovereign and is governed by that Sovereign’s laws.

The Constitution is a compact (contract) among the states (sovereigns). If you are legal Resident of a State (legally Reside in) then you fall under that state's jurisdiction and are represented by that Sovereign. This is why extradition orders must be negotiated between governors of states (sovereigns) when there are cross border offenses. If you are an illegal alien you are just a "Person", you are not a "Subject" represented by a Sovereign (State). You have no Allegiance to that Sovereign. Your Lord who you are Subject to, is the leader of your home country where you hold legal citizenship.

[contentious]

You may say, eww I don't like all that feudal monarchial language, but that is what we rose out of and where the legal language is derived. We declared independence from King George III and we established our Sovereigns as States with elected Representative Governments that play the role of our Lord while they are in office and we established Constitutions to limit our Lord's power while in office to protect the natural rights of our Citizens.

[contentious]

When you look specifically at the Fourteenth Amendment and it's origins, it is rooted in slavery where there were slave Masters (Lords) who had Sovereignty over Persons who were their Slaves. Those Slaves were property even though they were Persons, who were under the rule of Foreign Sovereigns. Those Slaves owed their allegiance to their slave Masters. Then those slaves were emancipated after the American Civil War declaring their Independence from their slave Masters and becoming equally legal residents of states in which they reside, thus falling under the Sovereignty of the state and becoming legal Citizens of America being that they were now Subjects of the State and gained equal protection of the law.

[contentious]

But you left-wing fanatics constantly think you know more than the Supreme Court about the Constitution for some wild reason. Anyone can confirm that "Congress may make rules as to aliens that would be unacceptable if applied to citizens" and that there is a "longstanding view that the Government may constitutionally detain deportable aliens during the limited period necessary for their removal proceedings" in Demore v. Kim, 538 U. S. 510 (2003). This case law specifically makes a distinction between a Person that has illegally enter the United States and a Citizen and confirms that illegal aliens can be detained without a need to criminally charge and process them. They can be held and deported. This is not secret stuff. It's well established law.

[MisterWack]

The Supreme Court majority opinion actually sided with all people residing in America’s jurisdiction can utilize a court to file an appeal to the deportation order which is ‘Due Process’, though didn’t say which court should have the responsibility when it is up for the system to be in place and carried out accordingly.

Secondly, the immigrant who was unlawfully deported without ‘Due Process’ isn’t a member of MS13 because his knuckle tattoos aren’t actually symbols of the ground and actual gang members get giant tattoos as you can see in the second image & not a weed, skull, or smiley face. Clearly he isn’t one and Trump either 1. Spread knowingly false information to spread a certain narrative or 2. He is demented and can’t tell when something is wrong.

[MisterWack]

SCOTUS’ Majority Opinion: “For all the rhetoric of the dissents, today’s order and per curium confirm that the detainees subject to removal orders under the (Alien Enemies Act) are entitled to notice and an opportunity to challenge their removal. The only question is which court will resolve that challenge,”. So yes due process seems to be allowed for those of non-citizenship.
Another point which I could be missing or misinformed of is from a basic surface level, You are also entitled by the US Constitution of due process, regardless of citizenship or noncitizenship.

[DrPepper12]

This is all a test. Everything is stress testing people, rules, procedures, etc to see who's loyal and how far he can go

[MisterWack]

@DrPepper12 Yes I know, dipping his toes to see whether he can be an autocrat which even when SCOTUS rules against him, he just declares victory then doesn’t listen to court orders / Fox News will be there to defend his honor for his legion of misguided fans. Our Democracy needs more nonpartisan guardrails or else it falls apart under Trump’s weight.

[OldBlu]

Why does everyone think I'm asking what the Constitution says? I know what it says and it takes 2 seconds to find out.

[MisterWack]

@oldblu Not insulting you or your intelligence or ability to read, I was doing that in general since a lot of people read answers from Left & Right so wanted to make clear to everyone that SCOTUS sided with Due Process for all even those of alleged gang members, then showcased the man deported wasn’t actually part of MS13. To answer the question, I side with the law and the law constitutes Due Process for all so I support Due Process for all. That is all.

[MisterWack]

@oldblu 2nd I apologize for the miscommunication.
Just was saying it in general for all that happen upon this answer, I do that for all my answers tbh.

[OldBlu]

Should people who entered the country illegally be given due process?

[MisterWack]

@oldblu Yes, because once you are in the jurisdiction of the USA you are given the ability to appeal the decision. Like imagine someone was randomly targeted for being illegal then was deported without due process, then later found out they were a legal citizen. It is an infringement on rights and would be a clear violation of the US Constitution. To prevent this, we need the ability to file an appeal and have a day in court to hear if they are illegal or not then once there is a valid reason to deport they get deported or if invalid they stay.

[OldBlu]

There were thousands of rapists and murders that crossed under Joe Biden. We knew they were here and they were free to stay for 5 to 8 years waiting for their due process.

[MisterWack]

@oldblu I’m basing this off the individual, that could be anyone under any administration under any circumstance so a right to ‘Due Process’ should be there because it is supported by The Founders, The US Constitution, the SCOTUS, and clearly it belongs to be that way.

[OldBlu]

The guy with the Buffalo horns was welcomed into the Capitol building and given a guided tour. He was then thrown in prison and denied bail. That is not due process.

[exitseven]

It does seem like we have a two tiered justice system. We have 1500 people who were tracked down by the FBI and arrested. They were sent to prison , many were never charged with a crime. Some were sentenced for 20 years for basically trespassing.
They would still be there today if President Trump did not pardon them.

[OldBlu]

I'm surprised they haven't all sued the government

[exitseven]

@oldblu I hope they all sue the government. 4 years hard time for basically trespassing was the real crime. I would like to see President Trump invite them all the the White House for dinner and issue a million dollars check to each one of them.

[OldBlu]

Great idea. And then throw Biden and his corrupt justice department in the clink

[FunkyMonkee]

How were they trespassing? If they were, the security police in the Capitol WOULD'VE stopped and arrested them but, they gave them guided tours!! That doesn't sound like trespassing, to me!!
As for the 2-tiered system, we noticed that at least 6 or 8 years ago!

[FunkyMonkee]

They should at LEAST sue Biden for putting them there!!

[FunkyMonkee]

Take those checks out of Joey's pockets!!

[DrPepper12]

@oldblu. @FunkyMonkee. How do ALL of you get it all so WRONG?

[exitseven]

@DrPepper12 if it walks like a duck...

[Sachem]

~ 𝘣𝘢𝘴𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭𝘭𝘺 𝘵𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘱𝘢𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘸𝘢𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘳𝘦𝘢𝘭 𝘤𝘳𝘪𝘮𝘦 ~

Trespassing on Federal property is a felony.
CASE CLOSED

[OldBlu]

Trespassing on federal property is a felony? Was Mr Buffalo hornes trespassing if he was invited in and given a tour?

[MuddyMole]

You do not deport anyone without due process, which would be no different from deporting someone based on some gossip you heard - and even if someone is found guilty, you still do not deport them to a country where they would be treated inhumanely (executed, tortured, etc).
That's how it works in a civilized nation, but of course, a country like the US, that still has the death penalty, but not universal healthcare, can't really pretend to be civilized.

[OldBlu]

Did the January 6 people get due process?

[Twalli]

They weren't deported for not being white.

[DrPepper12]

Right on !!! 💯👍🏻😀

[DrPepper12]

Yes. Each & every one.

[msc545]

Due Process, a fundamental civil right, applies to everyone in the US, citizns or not, gang members or not. It is a right enumerated in the Constitution and there is no exception to due process for people you dislike or who scare you or hurt your feelings. If there is no due process for some people, there is no due process for any of us, including YOU.

To be against due process for all is to be anti-American.

[OldBlu]

What are you rambling about?

[DrPepper12]

That if you don't support due process for ALL you have due process for NONE. QUITE SIMPLE!!

[Sick_Soul]

I'm sure you'll figure it all out if you just, like, keep an open mind and maybe check out some other perspectives that are out there, you know, from people who have thought about this stuff a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/1hVZyezzfLo

[OldBlu]

I was looking for opinions

[Sick_Soul]

Yeah i shared my opinion in the video

[Agape93]

Both. If you're in a country, you're subject to its laws and due process.

[OldBlu]

Were the January 6 people given due process?

[Agape93]

Yeah, that's why many were investigated, arrested, and jailed or released.

[OldBlu]

Did they get due process?

[Agape93]

I just answered that

[OldBlu]

Why would the left wing media who hates Trump say that you are full of shit?

[Agape93]

Because liberals are retarded?

[OldBlu]

And my guess is that it's coming from china.

[Agape93]

Nah that's just home brew retarded. Ignore em

[OldBlu]

No, buying Hollywood isn't home brew

[worldscolide]

I think what he is getting at, the vast majority fothe j6th people (mind you I'm strongly against what they did), we're held without bail, or a trial for multiple years. Those that were charged got disproportionately larger sentences.. And finally there were several people arrested for being there when they weren't, and were actually across the country doing other things. In other words a lot of them were denied due process. They should all have been given their day in court, but because the prior admin used some national security rules they were denied their right to a fair and speedy trial under the constitution.

Again not defending these people, I'm just stating what I know of the situation.

[Agape93]

Ah ok I gotcha now

[OldBlu]

They arrested a guy who wasn't even in the district of Columbia at the time.

[Agape93]

Not surprised with the feds

[OldBlu]

But they don't care about people who are in the country illegally and killing people

[DrPepper12]

Yes. We covered that already. Do keep up!!

[Spencer10]

If due process is not applied to all... even the worst humans... then it weakens protections for the innocent. If the law is not respected what will stop the government coming for you next?

[OldBlu]

I just find it strange that I've heard the term "due process" mentioned more in the last 2 months than they have in the last 4 years.

[Spencer10]

Maybe because generally due process was followed?

[OldBlu]

Sure

[katiesmuff]

Well the premise and idea was that everybody would have due process! Apparently however many in government or law enforcement seem to have misplaced that portion of the manual.

[OldBlu]

And citizens don't always get due process.

[katiesmuff]

That is sad but true!

[DrPepper12]

Cite one other modern example other than Koremetsu

[Vevv123]

Can you elaborate on why you specifically mentioned gang members? What relevance does that have when discussing the rights of American citizens versus non-citizens?

[OldBlu]

Citizens versus non-citizens

[Vevv123]

Exactly… what relevance do gang members have in this?

[OldBlu]

Did you know that not all gang members are in the country legally?

[Vevv123]

Your question implies that every non-citizen is a gang member. Frankly, last time I checked, every country has gang members, regardless of citizenship. Crime knows no borders.

[OldBlu]

I'm not responsible for what you assume. Read with the winner said.

[Vevv123]

Not assuming; it’s called reality. I’m sorry, I don’t know what you mean by winner. I didn’t know this was a contest.

[OldBlu]

You probably never encountered an MHO.

[Vevv123]

Never cared enough to have it 🤷🏽‍♀️

[Vevv123]

I still don’t even know what it is meant for

[OldBlu]

Never mind.

[onedarkcloud]

In America, the criminal gets due process legal citizens get shit

[OldBlu]

We both know that but why? Who are these people? Why are they constantly pushing for sex changes in children? Why do they bring their 5-year-old children to a drag show?

[DrPepper12]

Cuz the kid is more likely to be violated in church than a drag show...

[Dargil]

Due process should apply to American citizens, born or naturalized and legally resident non-citizens.

[OldBlu]

You would think

[Dargil]

And I do.

[Godihateyou]

It should apply to everyone. You can't prove someone isn't a citizen without du process. Due process is right under the 1dlst and 2nd Amendment in importance

[OldBlu]

Do you think that all the January 6 people received due process?

[Godihateyou]

I seriously doubt it.

[OldBlu]

That is correct and that is the entire point of my question.

[FunkyMonkee]

Mostly Americans!!

[OldBlu]

January 6th protesters were given zero due process.

[FunkyMonkee]

Exactly my point!! People that did NOTHING wrong were scooted right into jail, no questions asked!! But, people who have been breaking the law since they got here 4 years ago (entering illegally, human trafficking, bringing drugs, killing, stealing, raping, molesting, arsonists, etc.) get a free pass to stay as long as they want with no jail time at all!! If they actually DO get caught, they HAVE to get due process!! On OUR dime!!!

[DrPepper12]

FALSE

[DrPepper12]

Still wrong

[FunkyMonkee]

@DrPepper12 HOW?

[Pterodon]

American citizens. If you’re in illegally then our protections don’t apply to you

[OldBlu]

That would be a nice concept.

[DrPepper12]

SCOTUS & constitution says you're wrong!!

[Pterodon]

@DrPepper12 anyone that enters illegally should be jailed and immediately deported permanently

[chrissykerdock]

democrates don't care about women

[DrPepper12]

False

[chrissykerdock]

@DrPepper12 they voted against sending back criminal illegals in the fall so your false

[Godihateyou]

It's even worse. Democrats HATE women

[Nikki1989]

So does the 4th amendment mean nothing now?

[OldBlu]

Apparently not for americans.

[DrPepper12]

Due process for ALL. 🛑

[OldBlu]

Maybe in a perfect world

[DrPepper12]

No. Better to light one candle than to curse the darkness.

[worldscolide]

It should be everyone.

[OldBlu]

But it's obviously not

[ABC1x1x]

Due process should apply to everyone.

[OldBlu]

Yes and even American citizens

[Averagegirl2000]

Cause they don’t like the compaction.

[jimmy2]

No one above the law

[OldBlu]

Except the terrorist

[DrPepper12]

No. MAGAs had due process for J6