If a CD can be burned in a few seconds, why does it normally take at least 20:00?

[FunkyMonkee]

Normally, when I burn a CD from a computer, unless it's a higher speed CD, it takes roughly 20:00 to burn a full CD but, I have a Tascam CD recorder. It's like a tape recorder but records to CD instead of tape. I can record from the source straight to the CD. But, from what I've discovered by accident, it actually records to some kind of memory on board and then, once I'm ready to finalize the recording on the CD, the process to burn it to the CD only takes a few seconds!
One day, about 10 years ago, I was recording a couple albums to a CD and, in the middle of the recordings, the power went out. When it came back on and I checked the CD to see if the recording was okay, the disc was blank! So, all the recording I did before the power went out was a waste of time. I had to do it all over again. That means, it DOESN'T record straight to CD, it has a memory that I record to and, when I'm done filling up the quota for the "CD", it dumps everything in the memory (for that CD) onto the CD but, as I've said, it only takes about 5 or 10 seconds for it to do that! So, why does it take a computer 20:00 or better to burn one?

[Oliverlogan263]

There's a few reasons why it takes longer for a computer to burn a CD compared to the Tascam recorder you described:

1. File formatting - When burning from a computer, it has to take all the files you want to include, like songs, videos, photos, etc and package them together with metadata, error correction codes, and format them into the CD standard. This preprocessing takes time.

2. Write speed - Consumer CD burners found in computers typically have slower write speeds, rated in "X speeds" like 16X or 24X. This dictates how fast data can be written to the disc. Pro equipment may have higher 48X+ speeds.

3. Buffering - The computer write process buffers data temporarily before writing large chunks at once for efficiency. This allows it to continue buffering while writing, without interruptions.

4. Verification - The computer burn process includes verification steps after writing to ensure data is recorded correctly before finalizing the disc. This adds additional time.

So in summary, the Tascam can dump it's internal memory faster since it doesn't need to do as much preprocessing or verification. While computers take longer due to slower speeds and extra formatting/checking of data quality. Hope this helps explain the speed difference! Let me know if any part is still unclear.

[FunkyMonkee]

I think I got most of it but, when burning on a computer, once I start, it goes through every track to prepare it to be burned, this might take a minute or two, then it does almost the same thing while burning in that, you can see the progress of each track as it's being burned, this is the process that takes nearly 20:00 (IF you're burning a full CD! Shorter ones take less time). Then it does something else after the last track but, that only takes a few seconds before it spits out the finished disc.
The thing is, if I burn on the computer and then stop it part way through and pull out the disc, it will have already written that much onto the disc. But, if I put a blank into the Tascam and record a bit and then pop the disc out, the disc will still be blank.

[FunkyMonkee]

By the way, thanks LOADS!!

[Oliverlogan263]

You're welcome and You're absolutely right, I missed some key details there about the computer burning process. Let me try to explain it better:

When you start a burn on the computer, it first analyzes all the files and tags them so it knows the order to write them in. This prepares the "table of contents" which does take a minute or two.

Then it goes track by track. As it writes each file, that data is immediately burned to the disc. So if you eject halfway, it will have those first tracks burned on.

The full burn time isn't just writing the raw data, it also includes verifying each track was written properly before moving on. This ensures the quality and takes more time.

With the Tascam, it sounds like it buffers the entire recording session into temporary memory first, before spending just a few seconds to dump it all onto the disc in one go.

So you're correct - the computer is burning "on the fly" track by track, while the Tascam waits till the end. That buffering method is faster for the Tascam since it minimizes the actual time spent burning.

Thanks for catching me on the details - I appreciate you setting me straight! Let me know if any part of the process is still unclear.

[FunkyMonkee]

Sounds about right. Thanks, again.

[Oliverlogan263]

You’re welcome man

[RavVid]

Interesting Q. Obvious not strange that write to disk is fast but how long that takes depends on disk fragmentation of course. It has usually taken me the 20 min to burn a disk image which I think is the clue.

if it pulls off sector 1 and writes that to cd then goes back to get sector 2 and to write it it has to wait for the place to write that sector comes back to position. So there is a lot of latency I am guessing waiting for positioning of the head in disk terms.

I think cds are written from the hole end to the rim end but might be misremembering. There is a different number of sectors/blocks on the inside to the outside.

If you wrote a track at a time you would sort of be streaming on to cd and not have so much latency.

I have forgotten most of what I know about cds but i do tune computers and latency is a key factor with disks. If you were reading a video, rendering and writing back to the same disk it will be very slow. You really want to read from one hard disk and write the rendered video to another hard disk.

It comes down to physics as we say. If the head is moving back and forth from the inside to the outside most of the time is going in seeking the track then latency for the sector to come round under the head.

Reading an writing sequentially is much faster than reading and writing randomly. As a professional tuner I shoot for sequential a lot of the time but it all depends.

I am really imposing disk tech on cds because it has been a while since I have mucked with CDs. Mostly mucked around with video and dvds back in the day anyway.

Happy if someone proves me wrong but I am pretty sure it comes down to disk latency and random versus sequential and you are seeing the magic of computer tuning!

[FunkyMonkee]

On the Tascam, I can record a record side to it and then stop the process for a bit and it'll burn what I recorded to the CD in a couple seconds. I can pull it out and see that it's been recorded to that point. Then, put the CD back in and record the next record side and, if I stop the recording again and pull the CD out, I can see that it burned that second side to the CD, too. In this deck, I can play anything that is now on the CD but I can't pull it out and play it on some other device until I let the Tascam finalize it.
What causes a DVD to not play? About a year ago, I bought a copy of, "Hogan's Heroes". I had no trouble with it at all, from what I recall. I just started watching it again a few days ago. A couple of the discs have a very minor scuff at the edge of one spot because of the way they were packed into the folders they're in. The player gets to that spot and gives me a lot of shit and won't let the disc play well from that point on. However, I found a DVD on the street once (Jackie Chan's "Around The World In 80 Days") which was someone's home made copy that was thrown from a car and the playing surface is all scratched up but THAT disc plays perfectly fine with no issue!! I also bought a used copy of, "Better Off Dead" that has seen better days but THAT plays without issue, too!! But, if I have an otherwise brand new DVD with the tiniest of hairline scratches on it, or even a finger print, it refuses to play at all!!
I just bought the Jame Bond boxed set a few months ago and at least 4 of the discs in it gave me shit on the first play! They're in mint condition! I had to look up the tail end of 'Goldfinger" on YT because it got as far as the fight scene on the airplane and Bond lands a punch to Goldfinger and the movie stops!!

[RavVid]

With the Tascam it seems it is fairly smart. There is a finalization process with CDs that writes out what amounts to access metadata for other devices to access the disk contents. It is sort of a disk index saying where things are.

With DVDs I find fingerprints is the major problem but mostly because dear housemate is unable to learn to handle the dvd disks properly.

The label side is the most vulnerable because the metalic layer has less material protecting it. Scratches on that side are bad and I think it is a chuck out then. Scratches on the transparent side are not so bad but yes I have also had the experience of bad looking scratches still playing and not so bad ones not playing. Depends on the reflection I guess from the scratch.

[RavVid]

I have had success in reading a dvd in a computer that wouldn't play in a dvd player because the computer retries more than the dvd player - that might work for you. If you can read it you can reburn it.

I have also had success with Mr Sheen. Don't know if it is in the US. It is a light silicone oil product for furniture polishing from the golden housewife days of the 1950's - so it is good stuff. I'm sure there must be an equivalent US product if it isn't. I spray wipe and polish as the ad says to. I think the silicone oil fills in the scratch temporarily - enough to play. I'd reburn at that point.

Other than skipping past to the next chapter they are my only tips.

Burnable dvds are a different beast from the printed dvds. There is a dye in burnable dvds and there is some thought it can degrade. I have not seen any evidence of that at all. At a time videophiles were stress relieving the polycarb disks - waste of time of course.

[RavVid]

You might find new discs are burnt not printed and potentially burn't disks might not play well in a different reader. Other than that I can't explain the james bond set.

I put dvds on hard disk rather than burn - a lot quicker to rip :) but with the death of the video store I rarely do it now.

One last tip. Clean the tray for any dust - I have seen that scratch up a disk.

[FunkyMonkee]

I handle DVD's either by the edges and/or the center hole.
I have to wonder if it's that, if it's scratched up and the laser sees that, it compensates for that throughout the disc but, if the disc is 99.99% devoid of scratches and it hits that one microscopic scratch, because it's used to the rest of the being being clean, it just doesn't know how to deal with that one tiny scratch.

[FunkyMonkee]

I've been mostly watching DVD's on the laptop downstairs. I'm told it's a $2000 computer. I got it slightly used from a place I used to work that was upgrading. That machine gives me trouble, I'm tempted to see if I can fix it by replacing the DVD drive! But, if they don't play downstairs, I can bring them up here and watch the same DVD with no problem (or next to none) on this computer using a Teac external DVD drive! (The onboard drive kept doing goofy shit to me and now, won't open or even close all the way! It's perpetually frozen at about 97% closed. It's been like that ever since about 2 or 3 years after I bought it. I'll close the drive and it either won't close at all or it closes and immediately pops open again! Or, if it's closed, and I open it, it'll open and immediately close up again.
So far, the only time I've had trouble with DVD's "degrading" is from home made ones that were burned onto blue, green or purple DVD's (as opposed to silver). I got the disc and played it once or twice without a problem. A few years later, I went to play it again and it'd only go about half way into the movie and then just stop dead! I'd try several times with the same results. A few weeks or so later, I'd try it again and it wouldn't play at all! I did a directory on the disc and the directory said the disc was completely blank!! I just erased itself!!

[FunkyMonkee]

The trays in the drives are only ever open long enough to load and/or remove a disc.

[RavVid]

Interesting experiences. The DVD's that self erased must have been defective with the dye I'd guess. When I first started burning dvds I would write error ratings on them and check the error rating a year later to see if any degradation was occurring. Never found any.

Interesting that you have but I have never had blanks like you describe - they have always been silver.

The open/close problems would prompt me to replace them. Might be dirt perhaps if you are in a dusty area but life is too short to spend a lot of time mucking around with drives that are cheap anyway.

I don't know if there is any calibration of the laser such that single scratch would disrupt. Readers do calibrate to the tracks. I used to use DVD Decrptor and it allows you to set the number of retries. So possibly try that product - it was free when I was using.

As I mentioned I eventually laid out the money for RAID 5 hard disks. Raid 5 gives redundancy such that if you lose a hard disk you can recover from that. I am still using Vista and Windows Media Center as sadly WMC was discontinued at W10. There are other products and likely you will know more about them than I do.

So what I am thinking is that if DVD and CD disks are giving you problems you might be better off going RAID 5 instead and rip your dvdv and cds to a RAID 5 set up.

If you do, invest time in understanding RAID 5. From memory some implementations require a duplicate hard disk to replace a failed disk. It would be disappointing if a duplicate hard disk was no longer available when you lose a disk. I shut down my RAID 5 so there aren't spinning all the time.

It has been so long since I set this up I have forgotten a lot.

Another benefit is you have got a central location for movies and can play in the basement or lounge or bedroom :)

[FunkyMonkee]

I've had LOTS of weird shit happen to me via tech!! I've had a few computer geeks try to help me fix this stuff and they said they'd never heard of any of this and had no idea how to fix it!
I never heard of error ratings and have no idea how to write them.
I didn't buy them coloured, I bought the movies and they just happened to be recorded on green and blue DVD's. I'd never heard of such a thing before that but, I was brand new to CD's and DVD's, at the time.
A decade ago, I bought all 3 boxed sets of the Addams Family DVD's that had just come out and in every copy of one of the 3, there was one episode that refused to play! The first copy wouldn't play it so, I exchanged it and the 2nd copy also refused to play that one episode so, the store suggested I wait for another shipment to come in and try it again. After a few weeks, I bought it again and had the exact same deal on two more copies. I bought a copy on eBay and had the exact same issue so, to this day, I still only have 2 of the 3 sets.
At the moment, all of my computers (except this one) are running some form of Windows 7. When 10 first came out, Windows suggested I take it from them for free so, I loaded it up and tried it for a few days but didn't like it. It was too confusing so, I switched back the 8.1 that came with this computer when I bought it. It's just about the same as 7. I heard lots of bad shit about 11 so, I won't bother with that, at all!!
I have no idea what RAID 5 is.

[FunkyMonkee]

I bought an external hard drive about a 15 years ago and it worked great and then, one day, it just stopped! It clicks when I try to use it so, apparently, the heads are stuck on the disks. I saw a video on YT of some guy that knows how to fix it and it seems pretty simple but, I needed to ask him a question about it and, when I did, I never got an answer and couldn't even find the video he posted on how to fix it! I remember that he said, all I had to do was crack it open, replace the PCB card inside but I had to swap out the memory chips so the hard drive still remembers where it put everything. Problem with that is, I don't have a soldering iron, anymore and, the last time I tried to use it, it didn't do shit! I had to get my brother to do it.
I've got two wide flat screen t. v. s but never watch them. Couldn't afford the cable bill 3 years ago. I'm sure I can run one of the laptops through it, I just don't know how. They've all got HDMI but, I haven't a clue how to use them. It's like with MIDI, I've got loads of MIDI capable gear but can't find anyone to teach me how to use any of it!

[RavVid]

A lot of laptops have HDMI outputs now. there are conversion adapters but audio wouldn't come through. I'll have a look. Set top converters might work and are cheap. Let me have a look and get back.

With the hard disk there is folk law on recovering them. Nonsense in terms of the memory chips remembering where files are located. There is a boot sector on the disk - if that is lost the whole disk is lost. There is a File Allocation Table (FAT) which says where things are on the disk not memory chips which are for buffering. Quicker to read an entire track onto memory chip and subsequent reads don't go to disk.

Did you get it back eventually?

I'll plug RAID 5 again. It has a min of 3 disks and you can lose one entire disk and still recover all files on the array because a file is stored redundantly across all disks. Failing that have two disks of the same capacity with one as a backup. I like non spining back ups. After backing up disconnect and power down the back up disk. I wouldn't even have it electrically connected in case there is a power surge.

[FunkyMonkee]

Did I get what back?
What do you think of these new solid state hard drives? From what I've seen & heard, they're pretty much like huge (space-wise) SD cards.

[RavVid]

Did you get the disk back that crashed?

Solid state disks are great and yes they are huge SD cards. I think the model is wrong and it should be large memories instead. The problem is that ss drives are more expensive and lower capacity than traditional disks but I haven't check for a while.

I also missed on Raid 5. It is an Redundant Array of Independent Disks which looks like just one larger disk. when a file is written it is broken up into stripes so it takes more time write but less time to read. The heads aren't busy reading the last stripe. If there are five disks you can read 5 parts at once so it should take 1/5 of the time to read the whole file. Better.

The real reason to use it is the redundant part. It one disk crashes you can plug a new hard disk and rebuild the array with out losing any data. If you lose two hard disks you will lose data.

So it is good with videos if you were ripping them from video libraries. Returned the original disk years ago and with all video libraries now a retro memory it would be difficult to rebuild the movie library.

If you are having problems with dvds failing it might be good to invest in I thought.

[jshm2]

It can't be burned "in a few seconds", unless you're burning only a few seconds of data onto it.

A dedicated device will always be faster than a general device.

[FunkyMonkee]

So, as I've explained, why does it only take a couple seconds on the Tascam CD recorder but 1/3 of an hour for a computer?

[exitseven]

The CD recording process must be continuous. This is why the data is stored in a buffer before the CD is burned. If there is a break in the flow of data (a buffer under run) the process will fail and you have to start it over again.

[dudeinohio]

20 minutes to burn a full CD is a bit long; but it's been awhile for me. It's possible it's doing a write verify after it burns the CD.

[Anonymous]

2002 called you dinosaur

[FunkyMonkee]

Oooookay!

[jahaims]

Using junk hardware and or software.

[FunkyMonkee]

It's whatever is installed in the computers.

[Andres77]

🤷🏼🤷🏼🤷🏼