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The problem with pickup artists and dating coaches isn't that they help guys date. I have no problem with guys wanting to learn how to date and become more confident. In fact I encourage it.
The problem with pickup artists and dating coaches is that they tend to play fast and loose with the rules of consent. Much of the time they call their advice "dating" advice, but what it really is, is advice on how to get sex, without giving the other person a chance to say no.
I've watched some videos from so-called "pickup artists," and there's one in particular that sticks in my mind when I write this. He recommended the same strategies as all the others, but he was so much more honest about why it works.
His advice was to build up to sex step by step. He walked through each step from the time you meet the girl to the time you actually do it. One thing he repeatedly stated is not to ask the girl if she wants to do x y or z. He said to just do it, and that she would feel awkward telling you no because what you were doing previously was so similar. His advice was to build things up in such small increments that a girl would feel ridiculous turning you down after she allowed you to do the previous thing.
It's not that I think men are stupid for listening to dating coaches. It just scares me when I hear that they have, because I wonder what techniques they may have learned which, known or unknown to them, may work because they make women to uncomfortable to say no.
If you want to get better at dating, then by all means, do your research. But when you're learning new tactics, ask yourself whether it works because it actually makes women more attracted to you, or if you're just not giving them an opportunity to say no.
Do you really want to be with someone who is only sticking around to avoid shame or embarrassment?
If you're actually learning useful things, the strategies won't freak women out. But if you tell them you're listening to pickup artists, most women will have a similar association as me, and will avoid you due to a sense of fear, not disrespect.
Some give bad advice I'm 100% with you on that and i specifically said dating skills not pickup because I am not talking about the trashy early 2000's pickup tricks to get laid.
I am talking about coaching on how to be socially calibrated how and why you should escalate ask for a date even go for the kiss and so on.
Who did you watch? Do you mind telling me just to see if I heard of him
I don't even remember who it was. It was years ago. But it permanently poisoned that entire genre of content for me. As a woman, watching that, and knowing that there are people out there who actually do things like that, was extremely disturbing.
That's why I said, if you're actually just trying to learn how to date, there's no problem with that. But if you tell women that you're learning from dating coaches, they're very likely to think of something very similar to what I said. There may be some difference in the terms "pickup artist" and "dating coach," but the type of content that I'm referring to exists within both. I've found content like that from people who call themselves dating coaches, as well as pickup artists.
The reason it's scary is that it works too. I was on a date where a guy followed that formula, and it scared me how quickly things escalated. It was in teeny tiny increments, but it was fast, and went further than I would have liked it to, simply because I didn't get a chance to say no. It didn't go all the way, because I did eventually cut him off, but I felt extremely uncomfortable doing so, and it made the rest of the date incredibly awkward. He also seemed really mad when I did cut him off, and it scared me, because I didn't know if he was going to act on it.
Yeah that's good advice.
I generally don't tell that I learned from online coaches, i even put myself on anon here before asking this just to be fully safe although no one knows me IRL.
But to attest to what they can do, I was a virgin at 22 and just 2 years later I've had 2 girlfriends multiple FWBs in between a few one night stands.
Basically a whole 180 for me, a guy who was never ugly but was so socially awkward he couldn't hold a conversation. I literally only learned the fundamentals of conversation and flirting.
That guy was himself a douch.
True skills is making himself desirable and have you want to kiss him just as bad. If you felt the need to stop him it means he follows the wrong advice and yes I know there's a lot of bad advice out there
I know he was. I never spoke to him again after that.
And I say if all you're learning from the videos is how to have conversation, good for you. There's nothing wrong with that. I don't think anyone would have a problem with that.
If girls make fun of you, it's likely because they assume you're learning some other things. They make fun of you for the same reason women make fun of incels. Because it's scary, but it's easier to laugh than it is to cry.
If guys make fun of you for it, then that's probably it's own thing. I know guys have weird stigmas about vulnerability, and admitting weakness. Maybe they see it as a sign of weakness. I've never really understood the whole "men don't cry" thing. I just know it exists, and if men judge you for things like that, it's probably related.
No one makes fun of me. I'm asking an abstract social question.
Personally I'm good, I take care of my health my imagine and my social skills and it brought me a long way.
Funny you mention incels because they are the most toxic of all.
They would shame guys who are trying to do better by calling them SIMPS as if the answer is to be forever alone.
You're pretty knowledgeable on all this, not many women know of the existence of dating coaching.
That actually makes sense, from what I've seen from them. The whole "blackpill" thing. They think that anyone who doesn't think that women are soulless creatures incapable of love is in denial, or just stupid. They're disrespectful to everyone. Extremely lonely people can often become absolutely awful. They try to justify their own lack of close relationships by making up things that are wrong with everybody else, because it's easier than looking inward. Incels make fun of everyone, except for other incels. It's nothing to take personally. They're just miserable, and they want everyone else to be miserable too.
I know too much about things like that. I've done some digging into personality types, and that might explain it. Apparently some types of people, including mine, have a tendency to traumatize themselves, kind of on purpose, subconsciously. We get freaked out by things, so then we go down massive research rabbit holes in an attempt to find some solution, only to find none and just scare ourselves more. I only know about dating coaches because of their connections to misogyny and violence against women.
I'm glad no one makes fun of you specifically. You seem decent.
Yes omg yes. PUAs are basically toxic as all hell, and generally only owe their success to playing the numbers.
If 1% of women like you, you can basically sexually harass 100 women, find the 1 woman who is into it, and go home with someone that night. That isn't being more "skilled" or more "desirable".
A lot of the mindsets created by PUA culture have led directly to red-pill/black-pill ideologies.
PUA books would convince me it's actually because I'm "too nice" and a "beta male" and that I need to be more aggressive and treat everything as a competition for dominance.
Looking back on my dating life, you know what my problem actually was? I didn't meet new people as often as everyone else. That's basically it. It came down to having relatively solitary hobbies. In college, when my group of friends got it's largest and I was meeting new people all the time, I had 10 girls approach ME in some way, and in every case, actual "niceness" wasn't a hindrance, but the point of attraction.
Most of the time, it's some small problem like that. But I feel like PUAs are the only ones who take the issue seriously, so they are the only perspective young men hear. So they become a factory for red-pillers.
I think they believe the guy is manipulating people for physical satisfaction and don’t realize it’s possible to be charming and attractive and honest
Yeah except it's rarely ever manipulation.
Manipulation means you're lying to get something from someone.
Improving your dating skills is just learning what is attractive and what is repulsive the practicing what is attractive there is no lie anywhere in it.
Yeah it's basically a mouth-breathing subset of the population who judges like this. I feel like it's more divisive to men, who can either SUPER RELATE or have a series of berating comments that probably took all 2 of their brain cells to form.
I feel like people don't realize that by expecting things like male initiation and having to make a move in a more and more socially-isolated society, a guy has to more or less develop a skill. It doesn't just happen naturally.
I feel like women who judge simply never bothered to understand, and think they are under no obligation to understand. The line "Focus on yourself and relationships will just happen" was clearly created by a woman. Their lives are more social in general, people are much more willing to socialize with them, and their efforts to draw attention like fashion and makeup are already hobbies they have amongst their friends. So an additional effort to attract men isn't necessary. Not every such girl is going to be judgy like this though. I'm just saying girls who are judgy about this generally fit that mold.
I see a therapist and thought about seeing a singles counselor. I'm really not embarrassed by this. And for most girls I know, not only are they not bothered by it, they are actively excited by it. Some girls I've dated, it started with some long talk about our deepest emotional lives. Like, either she loves that kind of vulnerability or she is emotionally immature and you don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
I'd say if women are judgy about any form of self-improvement, it's styles. Basically any time men try to collectively expand the range of style, people absolutely shit on it. We don't have "bold styles", we have jeans, a t-shirt, short hair, and stubble. Long hair? Beards? Bringing back hats like trilbys or flat caps? Skinny jeans? If it isn't jeans and a t-shirt for casual, suit for formal, and trunks for the beach, it's shit on.
"Guys don't put much effort into fashion" Well yeah because we'll be shit on if we do. I'd say this would be my main frustration in this regard.
I can tell from your writing you have lived that. It sucks man.
But the way I see it, we don't owe anyone jack sh! t. Work on yourself, take care of your fashion people can stick their opinions in a place the sun don't shine for all you need to care.
I asked this question to point out the issue but in truth I'm not looking for an answer just trying to get people to stop and think for a second
I'd say I've kind of experienced it. Probably the worst thing I've experienced was asking friend of mine out, her friends not lliking that, and them getting me almost expelled through false accusations, which REALLY made it feel not worth it to initiate with women.
Mostly it's that I empathize with guys who struggle in things like this, only to be dismissed and hated rather than supported. And it's one thing when it's criticism from guys, but especially nefarious when its women judging how men do things that they themselves aren't expected to do.
But I myself was relatively lucky. I was in a college of 72% women, and can remember the names of 10 girls and 3 guys who approached me. The dynamic was SO MUCH BETTER like this, and I can rant for ages as to why.
But as far as getting psychological help, I think men need it now more than ever. We should not be ashamed to get help, and anyone who would shame a man for getting help is deeply immoral.
But as far as myself, my main problem these days I think is just lack of exposure to new people. Cold opens to strangers are unnatural yet people are so distant that we're all strangers anyway.
There are two things where, what makes a man attractive to women. First there is one's sexual mean value (SMV) which is determined mostly by your socio-economic status and then there is the perception or advertisement of the SMV. What dating coaches can help you improve upon is the advertisement part, to dress better, to speak with more confidence, etc. I think it's frowned upon because to some women it seems like a fraud where you are greatly increasing your SMV way beyond what it actually is.
I always thought it was "Sexual Market Value". Bue yeah I know what you're talking about and completely agree.
I just don't know why it's considered manipulation to learn this like "speak in a downward pitch voice" or "don't hesitate to make a sexual joke if the mood is good" or "make it clear that you are intersted in her as more than a friend".
But somehow it's not manipulation if a guy drops down to 2% body fat and flaunts abs.
He who was fat is now fit.
And he who was socially awkward is now a good conversationalist.
There is no manipulation
I can see the analogy make sense but in dating the part of "spend more than you can afford" doesn't apply.
It's not like guys are asking for money or some form of expensive requirement to date a girl.
In this scenario she being pitched the car and getting it for free at the end.
There is no harm in being charming
Opinion
13Opinion
There is nothing to learn. The only men that seem to have a problem dating woman are men who think woman can’t be friends. There is no mystery. People want to be with people who care about them and make them feel safe. In order to find someone you have to actually care. It doesn’t sound like you’re in that place.
But you see that is exactly why there are things to learn.
I was absolutely NOT in that place before I proactively started learning, today I can understand what you mean simply because I have more experiences. But for example my best friend only has one ex and they lasted 4 months and he has SO much he doesn't know.
But saying there is nothing to learn is saying he's a hopeless case and should never find someone.
As far as the mystery goes, it might not be a mystery for you, it rarely is for women but men a different we think differently and thus we need guidance in matters of the heart
You might as well say there's no mystery on how to dress, and simply state just dress nicely and your good. You think people purposely dress badly out there, they all think they dress nice. So it doesn't really help them. Because there is knowledge behind dressing good, same for being good partner or even being good in bed its the knowledge difference. Saying to bad in shape person hey there nothing to learn just lose weight and thats it. Well okey, thanks i guess.
Largely because you cannot get better at dating, no matter what some people promise.
How good you are at it is dependent on your looks (genetics), your family wealth (luck of the draw) and your popularity (mostly a combined version of the last two).
But that's something someone told you. Why chose to believe that?
I wouldn't call myself ugly but I'm not mister super sexy either and my family is dirt poor, i was always the quiet kid in school who got bullied left and right.
If you met me at 14 you would say this guy will never get laid. Today at 24 I've been with 10 different women had 2 girlfriends, a bunch of FWBs and a couple of one night stands.
I improved what I can improved on my look, mainly my weight and style.
I got an engineering degree and now make acceptable money but mostly I have a lot of growth potential.
But all that was not enough, what made the difference is when I learned how to text a girl, how to flirt how to be assertive how to suggest dates how to express my interst in sex. All these things didn't just pop out of nowhere I wasn't standing there and some girl walked up to me and started kissing me because I look good and have a source of income.
I never looked at it that way. I was painfully shy and was afraid to ask out a girl. Even when I knew she liked me I was still afraid to make a move. If I did not try to get over that fear I would probably be sitting alone playing video games.
But that's exactly what dating skills do for men.
Some men can't naturally develop these skills they have to learn them.
So which is better? Saying it's creepy and living your life stuck inside playing videogames or actually taking action and trying to improve?
It depends on what he is doing to learn. Seeing s licensed therapist or dating coach? That's cool.
Paying stupid money to some self-proclaimed pickup artist? That's as silly as trying to get rich from multi-level marketing.
I agree with you. I think it's due to thinking you are doing it weirdly whenyou try to pick up, and you can just admit to the girl that you don't know how to pickup but you like her. Some girls like the effort and courage.
Also, you can try teasing and flirting in moderate amount without sexual stuff with your female friends a bit to improve, or even ask them to exercise on it with you.
I think if a guy is just trying to sleep with women then... That is the problem. Not someone really wanting a date
That's besides the original point of the question but I do find it intersting, why is it a problem? Assuming both parties want the sex why shouldn't a guy sleep with a woman?
err. how are you "improving" your dating, and who is complaining, exactly?
Well I was once socially awkward couldn't make eye contact with a girl much less ask her out and it took a whole lot of social calibration and trial and error but eventually I became someone who can do those things a few more.
The people who complain are everywhere. Look at this thread alone, so many contradicting opinions on the topic.
If the question was: "Why are guys judged for going to the gym"
Everyone without fail would have answered: "No one is judging bro go workout if you want".
But when the skill in question is dating and flirting and socializing everyone has an opinion and many don't like that this is a thing.
So my main question is why is it ok to work on some aspects of your life but so inherently wrong to work on others
Dating advice is ok. Pickup advice (how to get laid) is not.
So just different marketing is needed, call it dating advice instead of pick up. Thanks good to know.
It's not just a name.
Dating and getting laid are 2 different things.
You can have one without the other.
Exactly
Nope. I appreciate a guy trying to improve his dating skills. Very attractive. It motivates me to work on my setbacks.
Dating is like the only thing that you can't just succeed at because its half dependent on the other person. Sometimes it's just not the right fit.
Right it's never 100% perfect.
But you can optimize your 50% of the deal by becoming desirable and then it comes down to the girl.
I would argue that today if anything my standards went up when it comes to dating, when I was a desperate virgin I would have made do with just about anyone today I am the one turning girls down because I wanna surround myself with people I am compatible with.
The reason is because the term 'picking up women' is by definition creepy.
The same reason women are judged for trying to improve their bodies to get with a dude
Except they are not. Other women encourage them or envy them and dudes end up wanting to get with them.
No one points a finger and goes "you're a sad pathetic loser for doing this"
Lots of women are judged for improving their bodies, trust me
Right but they shouldn't be this isn't a counter argument or an answer to my question.
I am simply wondering why some things are ok to improve on and others are not
Well, its like saying an alcoholic having a beer one day and saying he's fixed. No, he relapsed
Because a lot of women are assholes who treat men like shit
Dude, Why take away their #1 reason to complain?
A very good question :/
Who judges this?
Many people do.
If you try to learn dating skills, get coaching or go to conferences or even practice flirting and watching YouTube.
Someone will call you a sad pathetic loser for it but they will never offer you an alternative
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