Is it too crude to say to girls before the 1st date, that my aim is a long term relationship but without kids and marriage?

[Unit1]

No wasting time for me

yes

no

maybe

i'm an idiot

[WindAtMyBack]

Even if she has the same goals, I don't think it should be brought up on a first date. It's just too much too soon.

You don't want to waste time, but if you scare someone off by bringing it up so soon, you are still wasting your time. Except that it's not really a waste of time. Dating and getting to know someone is a process. Sometimes it works out with someone, and sometimes it doesn't. But I don't think aiming for a lifelong mate on the first try is a good idea.

There is a lot more to compatibility than whether or not you want to get married and have kids. It's a process that takes time. Going through that process is not a waste of time.

[hahahmm]

No. But keep in mind that a woman could think she doesn't want kids today... and when her biological clock hits she is dumping you for the guy who she feels is better suited for family. You can never know if that will happen.

[Unit1]

I have seen cases, where they never changed their minds, although only here and in published articles. In the real world I know no girl or woman, that doesn't want kids.

[hahahmm]

Yeah... so the massive high rate of lesbian divorces is attributed to the more feminine woman deciding she wants to have kids with a man who is actually going to be a protector & provider. Her biological clock isn't just about wanting kids but also about wanting the guy who makes a good dad. Now the women who raise their hand and say, "but I never wanted a husband and I have 5 kids", sure, some people just make horrible decisions 100% of the time instead of just every 5-10 years or whatever. It is what it is.

[hahahmm]

@Unit1 The odds of you finding a woman who really doesn't want kids go up a lot if she is 40s+ and/or has adult kids but of course there's downsides to that for you too. Obviously the older you get the less it will matter to you that she's 40s+ tho. I suppose you could also find a woman who is just biologically incapable of having kids or who knows she has some genetic disease she doesn't want to pass on to kids. Maybe find where women like that are looking for dudes for long term. *shrug*

[Unit1]

Right. As much as i see it being a common thing online, the real world through my 'lenses' is anything but. I mean i'm Looking for a childfree girl, not an anime girl (sometimes i think girls only want to date Mr perfect and when they met Mr perfect, they don't form a relationship with him because of something else)

[hahahmm]

All you have to do is figure out who you are... and be a genius level expert on who you are and what you want. This is part of why I wrote my "Better Man" mytakes because to me that represents who I am. Everything else will follow.

[Unit1]

I see. Self discovery is a real journey sometimes.

[alice55]

Not sure it's kind of weird to say you want a long term relationship without wedding to be honest. People aren't gonna take you seriously they would think you just want to play around especially since you're young. If you were a divorced man that would be ok to say on the first date but since you're young it come off wrong.

[Juxtapose]

How the hell is getting the government involved in your love life a sign of you being serious? I really want a logical answer because people attribute marriage to love simply because that's what they were told without really thinking about it. Go ahead and tell me how I am wrong because I don't think I am.

[alice55]

@Juxtapose Marriage is done in front of god in a church, this is a proof of commitment and real love, anything else just mean the guy want to easy ways out to be able to abandon his partner at his first whim.

If a man no married want to leave his woman he can do so directly in the second he feel the need to do it if if he's a married man he's forbidden to doing it, he can only leave the "wedding / couple" house if a judge authorize it (this mean that it show commitment and that you're serious because if you engage yourself in marriage it won't be easy to leave), also the requirement of both party involved to continue to pay for the "wedding house / apartment" even if one do not like into it anymore (if he get the authorization to leave the couple house he still need to pay for half of the expense, like gas, electricity, etc...).
This show commitment because leaving your spouse is highly complicated also divorce is only possible if both ways want it (if not you need to leave nearly 10 years to get one, in those time getting with someone else is forbidden and considered cheating).

All of this was done to protect women from mean leaving them with their children alone to avoid poverty and give stability of women and children.
If the man refuse to engage into a wedding it show he want to easy ways out and to be able to leave whenever he want on a whims.

[alice55]

@Juxtapose Also divorce in Catholic church do not exist it's "what god bring together do not let any man split it". or "till death do us part".
Once married in the Catholic church even if you divorce in front of your country laws the Church would still consider you both married. This is true commitment.

[Juxtapose]

Oh I am an atheist so that religious stuff wouldn't work with me anyway.

I don't need the government to make breaking up harder because if I want to break up then the breakup should happen. I'm enough of an adult to make my own decisions without the government acting as some sort of stalling tactic to make me change my mind.

[alice55]

@Juxtapose I mean it's sure if you're an atheist you're gonna see wedding differently, wedding is a religious things have always been until some fews decade. Government and religious wedding does not hold the same value at all.

Your responses show perfectly why any woman should reject any guy against wedding, they're against commitment and leave on a whims, not stable at all and children need stability. "You're gonna leave" and that's exactly what women are afraid of and they need the man to show they're committed to them and this only goes on with wedding.
You'r free to do what you want but any woman getting involved with a man against marriage is going to end up very badly and all alone in poverty.

[Unit1]

@Juxtapose that's what i have in common with you. I don't want the government or the matrix nose any deeper into my personal matters and complicating things and taking what little money we have left from us.

[Juxtapose]

@alice55 If the only reason someone is staying with you is because of the government they are not a good match for you. Like I said, I am an adult and I can make my own choices. I am perfectly capable of committing to somebody for life without the government or religion getting involved whatsoever. I am very loyal (ask any of my friends) so you really don't know me at all. You're making assumptions just because I don't want to get the government involved in my relationships. Pity.

[Juxtapose]

@Unit1 Yes! I don't see the sense in it, the state is so corrupt and it has nothing to do with love. Why would I want them to stick their nose in my business?

[alice55]

@Juxtapose Things you don't get is that married men don't want to leave their wife they rather kill her than her divorcing them. It's men like you that refuse marriage that want to leave and women should be worried about men that want to get married nearly never divorce (80 % of divorce it's the woman who ask for it in France and it usually end badly cause the guys refuse the divorce) so if the guy want to get married I have nothing to fear but if he say stuff like you do about wanting to leave easily then that's a red flag.
Every three day in France a man kill his wife cause she asked for a divorce. In France there's a higher chance of your husband trying to kill you than leave you.

As I said nothing to do with government but commitment. I do not believe one second non religious people to have any kind of morals or faithfulness. there's absolutely no reasons to refuse marriage if your girlfriend want it no reason except not wanting to commit to her cause you think you can get a better one.
In France lots of men say they don't want to get married neither have baby then they cheat on their 10 years girlfriend put their mistress pregnant and go marry their mistress while stringing along their girlfriend during decade... If a man refuse to get married it's cause he think he can get better one day and you're no the one for him.

[Juxtapose]

"Things you don't get is that married men don't want to leave their wife they rather kill her than her divorcing them." So if a couple is incompatible the guy should kill her rather than leave? That's pretty unhinged. As a matter of fact there's a certain subsection in anime that describes that well.. yandere. Normally I wouldn't bring up nerdy stuff but it really fits here. @Unit1 knows what I am talking about.

My morals come from empathy and compassion for my fellow human beings. I don't need the threat of hell or the promise of heaven to know that for example hurting you in any way would be wrong. I would never hurt you, if anything I would want to help you out of the kindness of my heart because that's how I am. My mother taught me to be kind.

I don't want to get married because I don't want the government involved in my love life and it really is that simple. I want a lifelong relationship and I think about it constantly, it is my greatest dream and if I have three wishes from a genie it would be my very first one.

[alice55]

@Juxtapose In France men don't want to divorce, they see women and children as their possession and to them they can treat them how they please, I'm not saying they should kill her if they don't get along, I'm just saying that men here in France don't want to ever leave their wife (so your argument about wanting to be free to leave without the government forcing you to stay is irrelevant here as married men would never divorce their wife except in some extreme case). So men not wanting to get married prove they're not serious and those that say yes to marriage then you're pretty assured that he would never leave you (most likely would not let you get away either but at least I don't have to stress about him leaving me on a whim).

If men want to get a divorce though they would and they won't kill their wife it's more the wife that would do everything she can to make the divorce being long and torturous for him.

I know about Yandere too we have hundred of movie and tv show with those theme, it's not called Yandere just thriller.

y

[alice55]

@Juxtapose es but those come from religion, if you lived in a country with a different religion you would have another ways to see things. in Japan they have no religion (most athee country in the world) and there you get hundred of underaged girl doing prostitution and porn to get money or even sexy pics, they'r encouraged to do it in France those kinds of women would get called whore and nobody would respect them or hire them (because of our Catholic culture shaming sex work and any sex outside of marriage). Religion is what dictate your morals even if you are not a believer if you still in a country who have a history of being religious and all your value come from this. Like I said countries who get no religion (or Pagaism have very different view on matter than Christian countries, Inuit used to share their wife with stranger for example).

Personally I would never be able to trust someone against marriage no matter their reasoning. If you love your girlfriend and she asked for marriage you have no reasons to deny her. Especially if it's important to her.
You don't want to inconvenience of wedding or to women it's often extremely important and the only true sign of comitement denying that to a person you love is just weird.

[Juxtapose]

I would be fine with a wedding ceremony but I don't want the government getting involved in my love life. I don't see why I need the state to get involved. We can have a ceremony and call each other husband and wife if she wants. Do I really need the government involved to prove my love? Why do I need something inserted in my relationship? Like I said, I will go through the ceremony and even give vows to her.

Well women and children are not my possession and I know full well a woman could wake up with a wild hair up her ass one day and leave me. I'm autistic, I'm not a player and I don't go from woman to woman frivolously. I treat my relationships seriously and I only break them off when it's very clear it's not going to work.

[Juxtapose]

Morals predate any religion. Empathy is what gives us more morals.

If religion gives you such good morals then why are Muslims so messed up and kill gay people?

[Juxtapose]

Seriously, look up how empathy is a social abhesive. Without it we would not be able to be a cooperative group species.

[alice55]

@Juxtapose I don't really understand the American argument of not wanting the government in their affair to be honest, this saying does not exist in France.
I also think marriage ceremony (especially religious) is more important than state one but it does give a peace of mind (at least to me it does make me feel at peace and not stressed).

Because sadly a lot of religious people used religion to commit murder and too usually those committing murder are not really religious they claim to be but if you see their behavior they don't act like how their religion say they should.
In North Africa they love big wedding with music but music is haram to them (forbidden) and taliban have a culture of being pedophile and gay (but this is also forbbiden in their religion), Saudi Arabia used to force their women to wear veil during many decade while is it also forbbiden in their religion to force a woman to wear a veil (she must do it but on her own free will).
It's not because someone is religious that he's a good religious he can commit bad things too, a lot claim to be from a religion but never really follow it. And criminal used any kind of excuse to justify their behavior.

I don't think morals predate religion... We all have different morals in the world, in Japan it's seen as not cheating if you have sex with a prostitute even if you're married because you're paying for a service. So moral isn't the same everywhere.

[Juxtapose]

The founding fathers of America were very suspicious of government and the Constitution is meant to be chains to bind the government. It's deeply embedded in American culture to be suspicious of the government and view it as a necessary evil. I don't want big daddy government in my life at all if possible.

With morals, it's really how you socialize the children that will determine how they turn out. I was socialized to be compassionate and for example I would never hurt you outside of defending myself. I would never steal from you or otherwise use you for my personal gain. I don't even know you but I care about you as a human being. Not because you offer me anything at all, but because you can feel suffering and I don't want good people to suffer.

[alice55]

@Juxtapose It's so different from France.
You have a lot of empathy though on this site many don't have any, they was a question about if it's ok for a girlfriend to say to his girlfriend parent that she have been cheating on him and everyone said no and that he was crybaby for talking about it, it blew my mind.
Also said empathy is only reserved to family member and even if they dated for 4 years the guy was nothing to them.
Many people, majority I believe don't have empathy. Religion is a good ways to put people that are on the wrong path on the right path.

[Juxtapose]

I am happy you can see that in me and generally I think a lot of people are borderline sociopathic as a defense mechanism.

[Juxtapose]

With my mirror neurons, I even feel sympathy for let's say an origami swan I threw in a fire to watch burn. When I did that as a kid I felt like I killed something even though it was a completely lifeless object.

From there I have consciously sculpted my mind as best as I could to be virtuous. I am not perfect but it doesn't hurt to try!

[Unit1]

"I do not believe one second non religious people to have any kind of morals or faithfulness."

Guess that makes me evil. Okay. I'll take it. I'm evil.

"If a man refuse to get married it's cause he think he can get better one day and you're no the one for him."

So you're saying if A then B and nothing else. It must be black or white and nothing else. Got it.

[Juxtapose]

Hahaha yeah, people get pretty black and white on this website and it's ridiculous.

[Danielle93]

Yes, it's always right to be honest from the beginning. This will weed out many marriage-minded women for sure but eventually you'll find one that's on the same page. This is better than misleading a woman and making her wait for the marriage proposal she'll never get, wasting years of her time she never signed up for.

[Danielle93]

It's not crude. It's the right thing to do.

[Summerlazing]

Nope!

Personally I really appreciate that kind of honesty, you can then just walk away before either of you get attached.

I can say this as a woman, but there is a tendency for some women to get so into a guy, they choose to blatantly ignore whatever they’re told. They have the misguided idea that the guy will just miraculously change his mind as you get further into a relationship. It’s nothing short of bizarre, but it does happen.

I’ve also seen plenty of men string women along when they have no intention of marrying them etc., and the woman is blind to it. They’re constantly hoping they’ll eventually just pop the question and totally wasting their life in the process.

I mean it may affect the amount of women you attract, but at least you’ll be getting someone who should be on the same page as you.

[Unit1]

Yes.
When I had my dating profile up it mentioned, that i want no kids. There was no word about marriage.
A few women reviewed my dating profile and told me I need to remove the "no kids" part, citing i am scaring away the girls and gave me that "one day you'll change your mind" bullsh. Weird thinking.

I suppose that's my warning label ⚠ no kids & no marriage ⚠

[RavVid]

Should be upfront early on this. I think it is presumptive though as before a first date you don't even know if you want a second. So premature.

In the exact reverse I'd be offput. Hold your horses girlie I'd be thinking. Don't try and sign me up at this point.

It is our nature to refuse what is demanded.

[just_a_potato]

No no, I think that's actually the best thing you can do, when it comes to online dating anyway. You should tell girls what you're looking for long term, it's only fair. I'd be so upset if I went on multiple dates with a guy, really falling for him, only to find out we don't have the same long term goals. And boom, I just spent hours on someone I'll never stay with. Don't waste your or her time.

[IslaTheWitch]

you still don't know if she is the one you want to create a relationship with...

but I think no one can stop you... some girls probably give you up because you touch some topics too early and it would be uncomfortable for them...

[Alli112]

Uhhhhh probably won't win you many hearts but I guess it's better than leading someone on? What exactly is your goal in a long-term relationship if not (hopefully) life-long partnership?

[Unit1]

The same as monogamous long term relationships, some of which form into marriages.
Except involving the government in it. Its none of their business.

[Alli112]

So the part that you object to is legally sharing property, taxes, hospital room access, etc? I mean, go off I guess. I'm sure there are women that think like you, but you might want to explain THAT when you're having this conversation with potential partners because if you just say "looking for long term without marriage" they'll probably jump to conclusions about your intentions (and not in a positive way, ex. that you're cheating, that you're lying, that you're scared of commitment, etc)

[Unit1]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. No involvement of the government into our private lives as much as possible. They only make things worse.
I see.

[Alli112]

I mean I personally don't have much issue with legal marriage. Like you're going to have to use hospitals, pay taxes, etc anyway, so might as well make it easier if that's what it will do for your circumstances. There's also the whole "common law marriage" thing that can just come about from living together long enough. But you do you.

[Unit1]

In Germany we are not affected by what people in the USA call a common law marriage. At least i've never heard of it here.

[Alli112]

Ahhhh, I don't know pretty much anything surrounding the legal system in Germany. I don't think common law marriage is actually very common here either (you have to be living together for like 10+ years or something, and it just sort of qualifies you for marriage without having to pay a fee.)

[Unit1]

I still don't trust the system. I don't feel like becoming another story, that only the MGTOW will hear.

[Alli112]

I've no idea what that means in this context or otherwise, but you do you. Your choices do not affect me in the slightest 🤷‍♀️

[midnightmoon05]

I respect the honesty!… match. com had the feature to weed out candidates such as education level, financial level etc… that made it a lot easier for me to picked out my first husband.

[RingOfFire]

How romantic! Like buying a car and you choose the sunroof, the sport wheels and the AI dashboard.

[RingOfFire]

Don't forget to include the heated seats when you order the next husband (whichever one you are on now).

[midnightmoon05]

@RingOfFire ehheheeh agreed… we tested drove the Tesla, was fun but my son said it’s too quiet. lol he wants a mustang (he was 13).
We like our car because it also came with seat cooling system！the other 2 cars we test drove didn’t have to seat cooling.
In terms of husbands lol… 😂 I have been lucky that my second will be last and met here on gag by accident… I knew nothing about him. So couldn’t check off a checklist like match. com 😂. Things turned out well after 4 years of struggle and one yr of breakup.
I really didn’t want a divorce. It’s not from my culture or value system. Since he wanted to end the marriage… there was nothing I can do.
We are both moved on.

[RingOfFire]

A bit confused... you married for the second time with a guy you met here on GaG but it ended in divorce again?

[midnightmoon05]

@RingOfFire no no… happily married to my husband… we are doing really well.

I see where the confusion came from…
I was just stating that I am not the divorce type… but no choice giving my first hubby ended the marriage.

[RingOfFire]

I see... thanks for clarifying and glad to hear you found your forever love. 👍

[luvstoned4him]

Hell NO!

where are the men like you? :'(

I love an honest man and I think its great because it saves time and delusions

[Unit1]

I am in Germany in a pretty nice city :)
I was asking myself where the childfree no marriage ladies are at 🤔

[luvstoned4him]

@Unit1 I guess we were in hiding until you dropped some sweet crumbs and here we are lol

[Unit1]

Okay but why hide? I kind of came out by myself. y'all ladies can do that too 🤔
Or are y'all getting too much shame talk when you do?

[luvstoned4him]

@Unit1 Maybe

[SugarSugarplum]

yes you should say it, but call it what it is. Friends with benefits, or fuck buddies. I've never seen that go "long-term" though, as someone always catches feelings eventually.

[Apple1996]

Tell them up front because most girls want something real and would rather not waste their time either

[RingOfFire]

Right! Tell him up front so it'll be over before you get what you want from them!

Great strategy! 😃

[rienna888]

it’s good that you’re being honest with them. But itll save more time if you tell them before meeting lol.

[Unit1]

That is correct! The sooner the warning label is shown, the better.

[rienna888]

Yes, thank you :)

[OhLongJohnsoning]

You sound like me

I want something serious, that doesn't wind up in marriage or kids. I don't think either are necessary to be happy. I just wish i could find a woman who agrees with me

[Unit1]

I see ourselves dying alone with a very high probability

[OhLongJohnsoning]

ha, right

Well, i supposedly have a girl who's in to me, buttttt, i dk. I mean she says she does, but, i tend to be pretty clueless when it comes to how women speak and act

[Unit1]

Yeah. Girls Can't let us know if they do. They are too scared.

[OhLongJohnsoning]

i mean, he said she does, i just, i dk

[Unit1]

Do they not show it a lot?

[OhLongJohnsoning]

i mean, sort of, but, it's hard to explain

[paledreams]

I meant to vote no.
Anyways I clicked yes by mistake.
I would think I would like to find a woman aka girlfriend who agrees

[MikeTheBartender]

Hell no!!! Why mislead them? I have a vasectomy, my rule is it has to be brought up by the third date, but ideally the first!

[Vegasrunner]

It's a bit more hilarious than crude, I never understand why guys think they need to always say something to women their dating.

[Juxtapose]

It's less what you say and more how you say it. Keep that in mind and you should do fine.

[Danielle93]

Saying ''I'm not looking for marriage now but maybe one day'' if he never wants marriage nor kids is cruel. Being straight forward from the beginning that it's never going to happen is the right way. There is no other way to say it. Sugarcoating is still lying.

[Unit1]

@Danielle93

About ''I'm not looking for marriage now but maybe one day'' that's what a few women have told me, saying i am scaring away the girls if I say "no kids" and that there's a "high chance" i'll change my mind with the right one. I classify that as an intentionally false advertisement and I'm not like that for such personal matters.

People be not thinking

[Juxtapose]

@Danielle93 I never said to say that or to lie. I talked about phrasing which has nothing to do with altering the truth. You misinterpret me.

[Danielle93]

The few women that told you that still want marriage but just not today and it wouldn't be with you. That's different than someone that's not ever interest in marriage nor kids.
Indeed if you're not interest in marriage nor kids but say what those women said to you... then yes you would be lying. That is definitely a false advertisement since both you and the woman would be wasting time at the end.

[Danielle93]

Then as long as it's the same message that there won't be marriage nor kids ever and she knows what she's getting into early on, then that's on her if she wants to stay.

[Dongie]

No, but I wouldn't until time to tell if she could possibly fill that void. At least have some funny perhaps get a friend anyway.

[Anonymous]

I don't think so. I tell men I want marriage but no kids.

It's their choice if they want to continue or not.

Better to tell early than later on.

[Twalli]

I told my girlfriend on the second date that while I was looking for marriage, I was not looking for kids.

[handsomelad70]

Perhaps, but it's honesty a chick can accept or reject.

[Anonymous]

That might overwhelm her when she just wants to meet you.

[BonzoInBitburg]

No. It's being honest.

[noohair]

It is not romantic but it is reality.

[MisterWack]

No, say it upfront.