Should men stop asking women out to avoid always paying for dates?

[msc545]

I am asking this question because I actually think men probably should stop asking women out. Women always use this ridiculous excuse that whoever asks who out is the one who has to pay, and then they proceed to never ask men out or very rarely ask men out, which ensures men will always be paying for their food and whatever. If you don't ask them out and you sit around and wait for them to ask you out, it might be a little bit frustrating, but at least you won't be broke. And if you do go out with them because they asked you out, when the bill comes, you can remind them of what they said about the person that asked the other person out as the one that pays and make them pay.

Updates

1 mo

A number of men seem to have read this as a financial issue that I am complaining about. I'm not. This is not a financial problem for me at all. Rather it is a problem of a lack of fairness which bothers me a great deal. I can afford to do this every night for the next 10 years and it's not going to hurt me one bit financially. What will hurt me is the gross unfairness of it going forward.

Updates

1 mo

Women pretty much don't think they should have to pay for anything if they are asked to pay, no matter what they say about it. It makes them unhappy, and they feel slighted and disrespected.

[Staximus]

If you wait for a woman to ask you out then you’re not going to get many dates, unless you look like some guy all the women want or you can sell yourself like a used car salesman

[msc545]

Not getting any dates is maybe a blessing in disguise.

[HighValue]

Women expecting the man to pay are pr0$t1tut3$. They are only interested in financial gain in exchange for romantic/physical activities/intimacy.

[msc545]

Yes, and if you read carefully, you will find that it is almost all women. What do you think about that part of it?

[HollyK21]

We can’t erase the societal norms that have been established over the decades when it comes to gender roles, and historically men have always been the providers, the ones who usually pay for the date, open doors, etc. These are acts that most men perform without question, without a second thought, and it’s become somewhat of an expectation for most women. I think that as society evolves, the rules change, and it’s up to each man individually to decide what works for them and what doesn’t. It’s up to them to set the standard, and simply find a woman who shares that mindset rather than opting out of dating entirely unless a woman is approaching, planning, and treating that man to a date. However, I could foresee a couple eventually butting heads over this revolving door conversation concerning fairness. I’d hate always having to decide who’s paying for what rather than just hopping in the car and go. I could imagine that couple acquiring a sort of “tit for tat” dynamic outside of dates, and it gradually becoming a matter of assuring there’s fairness with little thing.

[msc545]

Fairness in this regard is pretty simple. For restaurants, it could go like this: First occasion, I pick; you pay. Second occasion, you pick I pay. This is not difficult, and the equity is built right into it.

[HollyK21]

Yep, and that’s why I said that it’s up to each man individually to decide what works for them and what doesn’t. There are women who would be cool with that dynamic, and others who don’t understand it or don’t agree entirely. He’d just have to specifically date a woman who shares his ideology when it comes to fairness.

[msc545]

My experience so far has been that women will absolutely not tolerate being asked to pay for anything, and they get offended if they are asked. If you want to go out with them, don't ask them; you're just wasting your time and creating a bad situation.

[HollyK21]

I won’t negate your experience, or the fact that there are definitely women out there who are rather traditional when it comes to who pays for what. However, I wouldn’t say that their mindsets speak for the masses, because it truly doesn’t. I’m not some sort of phenomenon or rarity, there are plenty of other women out there who also don’t mind splitting the bill or paying for it entirely. It’s just a matter of sorting that financial stuff out beforehand. Making sure you are both on the same page about the whole “you set the date, I pay. Then next time I will set the date and you pay”. I personally do not care for that experience, with my fiancé we just get up and go. If I pay, cool. If he pays, cool. We are a team.

[slatyb]

That's hardly fair. It should be I plan a date and pay, you plan the next and pay. I've been in relationships like that. We were both professional engineers earning about the same salary. I've been in relationships where I took her to restaurants and she cooked dinner at her place. I don't look at fairness dollar for dollar.

[HollyK21]

@slatyb I agree with that, if I plan the date, I pay, and vice versa. I’m also the same within my relationship, I don’t look at fairness dollar for dollar, which is why originally I was saying that I could see having such a dynamic causing issues later down the road. Right now it’s who pays for the date, later it could easily become tit for tat.

[msc545]

There is also the "you pay one time, I pay one time" without who picks what, but I found that to be problematic since the person who doesn't have to pay winds up picking a very expensive place frequently. I like these things being dependent on each other such that the part that you're not picking or not paying or not paying rotates.

[msc545]

@slatyb that's not fair, because you can plan an inexpensive date and not pay much, and then you leave me with the option of either planning a date that I want to go on and paying more, or something of that nature. I think that these things need to be tied to each other but in opposition, as I suggested initially here.

[msc545]

What happens if you never plan a date? Then what? What am I supposed to do? I think you are back to if the man wants to go on a date, he has to plan it and pay for it.

[HollyK21]

I feel like these efforts to be “fair” could cause issues down the road. Like when you make mention of what happens if I never plan a date, or what if I choose someplace more expensive than what you chose so now it’s an imbalance of fairness and having to constantly choose outings that costs within the range of the previous place. It sounds exhausting to be honest, having that conversation each time you go out.

[msc545]

I regard a woman asking me if she can pay half or all for dinner as her making me the subject of a shit test. If I say yes, I've seen the last of her, and if I say no, I have a chance of perhaps seeing her again. This is a little bit helpful and sensitive. If I don't really want to see her again, I will often say yes, and her shock at me saying yes is usually fairly amusing.

[HollyK21]

Wow, I’ve personally not encountered a woman doing this, and haven’t done it myself, but it indeed sounds like a shit test. Then again, I’d say a woman who plays those sorts of games are either emotionally immature, got bad advice from someone, or a mixture of both. I’ve been off the market for a few years now so who knows, maybe I’m just out of touch with how some women can be. I can only use my own experience as a reference point.
Me and my fiancé go out once or twice a week, he’s just the sort of guy to pay without question, but I will also take care of it. If not for paying for the date, I feel as though I do my part in other ways. I cook all the meals, I bring him his food, I make and pack our lunches, I wash the dishes. We both keep the house tidy, with him doing the deeper cleaning because he’s just very meticulous. If the laundry basket is full, whoever notices first will throw them in the wash. Whoever notices the clothes are dry will take them out and fold them. We split our bills, we equally caretake our dog. We just have an ebb and flow. I think that if there were too much of an imbalance in certain areas of our relationship then that’s when I would be more concerned with the fairness of it all.

[MisterWack]

Will say, there’s etiquette when it comes to dating.

You want priority over the place, you made the plan, asked the person out, and took initiative then you pay.

If you were to discuss your moves and methods of payment reaching an agreement prior to meet up at said establishment, then totally should be upheld whether splitting the bill evenly or paying for your own dishes.
Women in the past have said, “men have to pay to show they can support a family” which how does a $22 bill showcase the ability to support an entire 4 children, a wife, and make sure bills of house and utilities, also groceries and clothing all get paid? It doesn’t.

And paying for a meal doesn’t guarantee another date or anything which makes the guy feel stupid for wasting his money on her and wasting his time, energy, devotion of it too.
These are the dudes not doing it for companionship. It sucks for the good guy.
We know the negative emotions and fatigue that affects women in dating, so we should be open to talking about it for the men who genuinely care.

[MisterWack]

Also this is the dude going on multiple dates a week or a month, that adds up.
He’s not just paying for the woman, but paying for himself too. It isn’t about being stingy or cheap, it’s about the overall.

[msc545]

Women do not want to pay because they feel that it's beneath them to have to do that. Women also don't want to pay because they want to hang on to their own money to buy things they want, and they're not about to waste it on buying you a meal.

[MisterWack]

@msc545 Whatever you say…

[msc545]

I do say

[ChicoFromThe305]

Personally I never cared about paying for a woman on a date, it's the entitlement of some individuals that makes me not want to pay, even if she doesn't choose me at the end if she was respectful, I'd gladly pay for the date, the date isn't for me to get something out of it at the end, it's an investment for a possibility of something blooming out of it. If you are a man that believes that men are providers then paying for the date should be instinctual, nothing more manly than working hard for your money and using that money and investing it in a good moment with a woman, the only difference is that it makes it harder to want to do it when a woman walks in with the arrogance that it's a mandatory obligation to do it cause she feels like she deserves it and requires it.

[Anonymous]

I guess paying is NOT a big deal to me when it comes to dating. Then again, i'm quite selective about who i date and when. So i'm not doing it that much. So when i date i'm not taking that big of a financial hit.

I see the point you're making about the double standard. But i think what would be better is men getting a lot more selective about who they date. And if women want to date more they can do the asking, and if need be do the paying.

So my response is a SLIGHT adjustment on what you said.

I think TOO MANY men today define their self worth by the amount of women they attract and whose attention they hold. And i think that's BASS ACKWARDS. A woman does NOT define a man's value. She can ONLY add to it. A woman has to EARN a man asking her out as much as a guy has to EARN a "yes" from her. Any guy who thinks differently should NOT be dating at all until he does.

[msc545]

This is not an issue of finances. Paying for a few or even many dates is not financially painful to me. What is painful to me, however, is the gross unfairness of this whole thing. I don't feel like I should have to be the person who pays every single time and yet traditions that I am the person who pays every time. If I want there to be it time. That doesn't seem right to me.

[lilBigPotato]

You're 39, if you still haven't figured out how to split the bill and go every other day on a new fancy dinner date with a new person, then that's on you.

[msc545]

This is an issue of equity and fairness, not finances.

[smashleyy]

How often are you taking women out for it to be a set back financially?
If a man has an issue with paying for a few dates then yes I do agree he should keep his cheap ass at home.

[msc545]

You are misunderstanding my concerns. This is not an issue of finances. I don't care if it's costing me some money. What I do care about is the unfairness of it and that is a different matter and a much more difficult problem to solve.

[MrChinaski]

Take a couple of deep breaths. Pick up the tab. Feel like a man.

[msc545]

I always pick up the tab and really that isn't quite the issue. The real issue is the complete unfairness of this. That is not something I can solve by picking up the tab unfortunately. I trust you understand the difference and why I'm emphasizing it?

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

It seems to be a local concern only.

I didn't have to pay for dates in the 90s and I still don't. Same with people I know of.

[msc545]

That seems very unlikely to me since men paying for dates is an almost universal phenomenon at least in the United States. Where do you live that this isn't true?

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

Isn't it interesting that when you think of something universal, it actually means 1 country out of the 200+ that exist?

I'm in France

[msc545]

I think the culture in France must be a lot different than it is here in the US. It's been many years since I've been to France and I didn't spend all that much time there. So I don't recall what it was like. Say 15 years ago but it sounds based on what you said like things have changed a little bit maybe.

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

Based on information I have about the US, it's a very different culture yup

[msc545]

You are quite fortunate to be where you are. Being in the U. S., particularly at this time in history, is a very unfortunate thing.

[slatyb]

I made more money than most of the women I dated. I could afford to pay for dinner much more easily than they could, so I did. I didn't expect anything except civility. If I am paid $200,000 and my date is paid $80,000, it is perfectly fair for me to pay for dates. If you resent this, you don't want a life partner and would be better off hiring someone to give you what you do want.

[msc545]

The thing is, the women that you date don't give a shit whether you can afford it or not. Their expectation is that you'll pay, and if you don't, they'll find somebody else who will.

[slatyb]

Don't invite them on dates you can't afford. If the cost is a burden, take them somewhere less expensive. Worry about subsequent dates if you get one.

[msc545]

I can afford to go anywhere I want to go at this point in my life. The thing is, it's not really about the money. It's more about being taken advantage of or being subjected to a shit test.

[Just_Ken]

The price if a meal is a small price to pay for getting your junk sucked.

[msc545]

Not really. I can get a blow job for $20. I can't get a decent meal for $20.

[Just_Ken]

Those must be some skanky ass looking skid row hookers lol.

[Just_Ken]

For $20 you get laqueesha who lost a leg to diabetes and has 12 kids or crack whore Brittany whos teeth are falling out.

[msc545]

Okay, yeah, it's more like a $100 blow job, I guess.

[Just_Ken]

Are you accounting for the Iran War Cumflation?

[msc545]

No, that's a good point. I probably should. That would make it like $1,000 per blow job, correct?

[Just_Ken]

Maybe if she looked like Sabrina Carpenter. She has that look in her eyes that says she's sucked a lot of dick to get where she is, that thousand cock stare

[msc545]

Yeah I've seen women with that thousand cocks stare it's kind of spooky.

[Iron_Man]

Interesting question I’m gonna follow it. The trouble is if you don’t ask women out, they don’t ask you out then we will be alone. That’s the problem

[msc545]

Ultimately, they will.

[Sevenpointfive]

where have you been? with the invention of the smartphone one of the first things was hookup apps like tinder. it's been happening for 20 years

[AngryCarl3]

No, just be honest and tell her you're broke. Or that you just don't feel like spending money on her. She's a modern woman, she will understand.

[Ariesman81Nshiiit]

At the point in which the bill came, they've already expressed intent, effort and attraction. I would pay the bill.

[robocop666]

you complaining about this is like complaining about the weather. its beyond a debate at this point.

[msc545]

That's a good analogy. It kind of is like complaining about the weather. That being said, I want to point out that it's not a financial issue for me. It's a fairness issue.

[robocop666]

here at 23 minutes a woman who is wealthy claims even if a man is working at MacDonalds he must pay. She also was upset that this was asked. www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkImNpVgzoI&t=2685s

[msc545]

I'm not sure if I got the right one or not because I couldn't see any time scaling on it. But that woman with a British accent was pretty funny, but more than that, the dating coach guy who apparently runs that YouTube video was hysterical with a good solid 5 or 10 minutes of complete bullshit. I don't think he meant to be funny but he actually was in a very cringe sort of way.

[robocop666]

between 23 and 25 minutes she says it.

[LazerBean]

If that's what a man feel like doing, then sure.

[alina_521]

Nope not a big deal

[Anonymous]

It a man place to pay

[msc545]

Why is that?